Sarcasm

[HarryHerb]

When I first started learning Thai, I was struck by the number of blindingly obvious questions people seemed to ask me all the time. When I met someone in the market, they would often ask me ซื้ออะไร (seu arai?) at the fruit stall; or ทานข้าวหรือ (thaan khao reu?) when sitting in a restaurant.

My natural instinct was to give a sarcastic reply, as I would in English: I'm buying a washing machine - what do you think? (I didn't actually say this). I eventually realised of course that they weren't interested in the slightest in what I was doing, but it was merely their way of saying 'hello' - similar to ไปใหน (pai nai) - so any sarcasm would just be lost in translation.

That's probably not a great example, but my point is that in situations where in English many would find it natural to be a bit sarky, in Thai it would fall flat or seem inappropriate.

I'm curious to see if Thai people use this type of 'humour' at all - given that their standard laughs seem to be had watching a fat man falling over accompanied by a drum roll and perhaps a boing boing noise for emphasis. But if so, where? Can anyone give me any everyday examples of where / how it would be appropriate? (with friends rather than the Immigration officer, I mean)

Or is it just a big faux pas?

[withnail]

Good question I remember a friend of mine who can speak a little Thai trying to be sarcastic once with a girl in a restaurant and from what I can recall she didn't get it at all and I remember thinking that she probably just thought he was being rude.

My guess is that it's not really something that Thai people do.

[greenwanderer108]

In Thai

there is PRA-CHOTE ประชด

which is the equivlent

It all depends on how you use it...You could be pra chote without offending someone...Depends on your chemistry...and the aura you ommit.. There's the fine line between being a joker and being someone who is bothered...

[meadish_sweetball]

I have met some native Thai people who use sarcasm. But Thai sarcasm is usually less dry than our Western European equivalent.

I agree with Green here about how you deliver... it is much more important in Thai. If, in the above situation, you would have the right "joker" look and fired off the sarcasms in your examples, chances are they could work well.

But if you do not have the right look, they probably would not. I am a rather sarcastic person myself (and I like to deliver my jokes with a straight face), but I have had to stop that to some extent here since just as you say, people here often do not understand, or think you are rude.

[chippie]

Completely agree with you both, I have used sarcasm on numerous occasions and it has got me into a whole lot of shit, offended people and even had threats made. My GF gets it now but I still get replies of 'hup baak' and 'baak maa' ( shut your mouth and dog mouth) now I just don't bother, even in England some people are offended so here unless you know someone well, hup baak.

[Johpa]

I have found that oblique discourse strategies such as sarcasm, satire, and irony are not commonly used in Thai culture and most often fly right over the head of a Thai speaker or reader. In Thai culture, what is projected, the "face" (sadeng naa) you present, must be accpeted publicly as truth by the other party or a loss of face (sia naa)and thus conflict may result. But Thais are masters of telling outright lies with great conviction and sincerity.

[HarryHerb]

ฺBut Thais are masters of telling outright lies with great conviction and sincerity.

Are you sure they weren't just being sarcastic?

Warnings noted; I do realise expression - as well as the person you are talking to - will make a good deal of difference to how you will come across, especially as a foreigner. I was just wondering if Thai people themselves use this as a common form of discourse - but obviously not. Teasing (gentle or otherwise) seems to be the main way to raise a laugh from people here; failing that I could always fake falling off my chair, or banging my nose on a lamppost (boing boing!) next time someone asks me where I am going.

[meadish_sweetball]

I have found the most sarcasm among Southern Thai males, and academic Thais with some overseas exposure.

[Bobcat]

I have found the most sarcasm among Southern Thai males

Meadish, do tell.

[meadish_sweetball]

It was rather irony than sarcasm - saying one thing and meaning the opposite. I noticed it with a group of Southern Thai students and bohemians who were at the same beach as me in Lanta a few years ago.

They would make ironic passes at each other, especially when one of them was trying to hit on a girl. 'muak thee yaang nii, sed nae'... (Hey, with a hat as cool as that, you've just gotta score') etc. (they all thought his beanie looked ridiculous).

[bannork]

It's common all over Thailand, it's a human characteristic worldwide for god's sake. When I come home the wife might say- pra aik ma leow พระ เอกมาเเล้ว the hero returns, a gentle form of ribbing. If you watch Thai soaps they're constantly taking the mick out of each other, one minute the gangster is serious and possibly violent, the next he's obviously overacting, strutting around, sunglasses and potbelly protruding.Listen to Thais watching soaps, there's a lot of laughter at the humour amidst the supposed angst of the characters.

[p_brownstone]

If you watch Thai soaps they're constantly taking the mick out of each other, one minute the gangster is serious and possibly violent, the next he's obviously overacting, strutting around, sunglasses and potbelly protruding.Listen to Thais watching soaps, there's a lot of laughter at the humour amidst the supposed angst of the characters.

This is not really sarcasm as such, but the hyperbolic attitudes of most Thai “Soap” characters is certainly a constant source of amusement.

A homosexual cannot be a gentle, sensitive personality – he has to be a mincing, lisping, preening individual to an extent which would be ridiculous in the West.

A gangster cannot be a coldly menacing individual a la Al Pachino or whoever – he has to be way-over-the-top threatening and aggressive.

Every character is overdrawn to the extreme.

My personal thinking is that this is simply a reflection, or a continuation in modern form if you like, of the “Likay” Theatre which was the staple amusement for Thais until not so very long ago – there the characters, make-up and gestures, even the language, are all deliberately overstated to elicit maximum reaction from the audience.

Subtlety is not a feature to look for in most Thai “Soaps” – until fairly recently even Product Advertisements were produced in this fashion too.

Patrick

Edited February 7, 2006 by p_brownstone

[meadish_sweetball]

Thai soaps are a bit beyond the scope of the language forum, but an interesting topic all the same.

I think the characters are so heavily stereotyped because Thailand is actually quite a diverse country (and stratified), and the easiest way to make entertainment work well across all camps and layers, is to streamline and stereotype...

[HarryHerb]

The widespread use of sarcasm in soaps is an interesting point. I tend to agree with other posters in that it's not common in society as a whole - the example used above was between you and your wife (intimate relations) - precisely because you are subjecting the recipient to open ridicule, however gentle.

So the presence of sarcasm in soap operas, alongside other supposedly 'non-Thai' characteristics - aggression and fighting, screaming and arguing, evil mothers and daughters etc. - shows that this is here, as Patrick says, to "elicit maximum response from the viewers" - which it does. But this does not mean that the viewers will then go and repeat such behaviour in their everyday lives.

Unless you subscribe to the 'TV leads to violence in society' theory... but that's a whole other topic.

[meadish_sweetball]

'TV leads to violence in society' theory... but that's a whole other topic.

Agreed, we won't go there.

[NaiGreg]

When someone (a Thai friend) does something [not seriously] stupid, tell them they are "chalaat nit-nawy " ... (you are clever, a little bit) ... everyone knows this sarcastic compliment.

More sarcasm that may or may not work in Thailand ... "Oh, my 100th post in 2 years. Please accept my apology for being such a mindless chatterbox!"

Edited February 8, 2006 by NaiGreg

[jdinasia]

Sarcasm/Irony is frequently used here. Just almost NEVER with strangers/random guys/girls.

People talk politely to strangers ... to do less is rude. However with friends ... it is a sign of closeness. Being over familiar with people is something that is common back where I came from. being over-polite is common here. I like it here :-)

[steveromagnino]

Regarding soap operas, the core target audience of the most over the top ones on Channel 7 are people upcountry, who tend to love this more physical, simply humour, because they are often doing something else at the same time, or they may simply genuinely believe that people in BKK are actually as portrayed in soaps.

There are better ones on Ch5, ITV, 9, sometimes, and there are some that are very well, well, ok, fairly well acted in more moderate fashion.

Sarcasm is indeed popular here, but you have to know the people I think. At work it is almost non stop,

Should be delivered with a smile and some clear indicators that it is a ribbing, and not for real, then everyone wins; otherwise it can be seen as a personal attack if the humour is not understood.....