Anti-Govt Group Leader Gen Boonlert To Report To Police: Thailand

[Buchholz]

i do 'sympathize' with red shirt 'people'. there is a difference with sympathizing with the plight of those people and 'supporting everything they do and want' that not many here seem to either want or are able to see the difference between the two.

<snip>

Most posters here sympathize with the poor. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with the red shirts though.

Indeed, it's funny how phony that nonsense is about that attempted connection.

Red Shirts prove that time and again such as immediately having millions of baht in cash for bailing of their leaders while letting hundreds languish in prison unaided and betrayed.

There's no shortage of endless examples where Red Shirts have clearly shown their colors and ignored and misused the poor.

.

[15Peter20]

If it wasn't for the Red Shirts, the dissatisfaction of the poor with the way they have been marginalized over centuries - aggravated by the consumerism introduced from countries that most of us are from - would be left unexpressed. That would be great for some. For those making money out of low wages, for those who like low rent hookers, for those who can take power unquestioned. Wouldn't it be good if the poor just kept quiet as if they didn't exist so there would be no disruption to the workings of this country? Wouldn't it?

For those on this forum who profess so readily and sincerely to really having sympathy with the plight of poor people in Thailand it is pure hypocrisy to deny the importance of the Red Shirt movement in making that plight known in the first instance. Sympathy for the poorer classes? Yeah, right....

[jayboy]

i do 'sympathize' with red shirt 'people'. there is a difference with sympathizing with the plight of those people and 'supporting everything they do and want' that not many here seem to either want or are able to see the difference between the two.

<snip>

Most posters here sympathize with the poor. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with the red shirts though.

Indeed, it's funny how phony that nonsense is about that attempted connection.

Red Shirts prove that time and again such as immediately having millions of baht in cash for bailing of their leaders while letting hundreds languish in prison unaided and betrayed.

There's no shortage of endless examples where Red Shirts have clearly shown their colors and ignored and misused the poor.

.

However much the usual suspects bluster the irrefutable truth is that we would not even be discussing the plight of Thailand's poor if the redshirt movement did not exist.The fact that the Democrat Party's political platform was geared toward the poor is entirely the influence of the redshirt movement.PTP would not have gained power without the support of the redshirt movement.

[Buchholz]

i do 'sympathize' with red shirt 'people'. there is a difference with sympathizing with the plight of those people and 'supporting everything they do and want' that not many here seem to either want or are able to see the difference between the two.

<snip>

Most posters here sympathize with the poor. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with the red shirts though.

Indeed, it's funny how phony that nonsense is about that attempted connection.

Red Shirts prove that time and again such as immediately having millions of baht in cash for bailing of their leaders while letting hundreds languish in prison unaided and betrayed.

There's no shortage of endless examples where Red Shirts have clearly shown their colors and ignored and misused the poor.

.

However much the usual suspects bluster the irrefutable truth is that we would not even be discussing the plight of Thailand's poor if the redshirt movement did not exist.The fact that the Democrat Party's political platform was geared toward the poor is entirely the influence of the redshirt movement.PTP would not have gained power without the support of the redshirt movement.

No matter how much the usual suspect attempts to misstate what is said, the Red Shirts long ago betrayed the pretense they are working for the poor.

.

[Pimay1]

If it wasn't for the Red Shirts, the dissatisfaction of the poor with the way they have been marginalized over centuries - aggravated by the consumerism introduced from countries that most of us are from - would be left unexpressed. That would be great for some. For those making money out of low wages, for those who like low rent hookers, for those who can take power unquestioned. Wouldn't it be good if the poor just kept quiet as if they didn't exist so there would be no disruption to the workings of this country? Wouldn't it?

For those on this forum who profess so readily and sincerely to really having sympathy with the plight of poor people in Thailand it is pure hypocrisy to deny the importance of the Red Shirt movement in making that plight known in the first instance. Sympathy for the poorer classes? Yeah, right....

We on this forum do have sympathy for the poor of Thailand regardless of their political affiliation or color affiliation. The issue I have with the red movement is the leaders not the rank and file Somchai farmers, taxi drivers and other folks that are looking for a better life. The leaders are just as corrupt as the entire Shinawatra clan. Some of them are millionaires and all of the leaders could not care any less about the rank and file red shirt folks because they do not care anything at all. They do care about keeping them under their control just in case the puppet master requires an instant rebellion for any reason. Case in point, Thaksin's billions were seized and immediately buses were filled with red shirts and sent to Bangkok for the burn Bangkok campaign. The throwing them a bone occasionally seems to keep them on board. If the leaders loose control of the rank and file then their payments from the chosen one to the leaders will cease. That is why I detest these so called red shirt leader hypocrites.

[rixalex]

For those on this forum who profess so readily and sincerely to really having sympathy with the plight of poor people in Thailand it is pure hypocrisy to deny the importance of the Red Shirt movement in making that plight known in the first instance.

Complete hogwash. Many of us came here long before the red shirts were even a twinkle in Thaksin's eye. Didn't need the red shirts to know and understand about the plight of the poor working classes in Thailand then, and don't need them now.

[rixalex]

The fact that the Democrat Party's political platform was geared toward the poor is entirely the influence of the redshirt movement.

Not quite true. Thaksin may indeed head up the red shirts, but it wasn't this particular movement of his that provided the catalyst for the increase in populist policies aimed at the poor, it was his TRT party that takes the credit for that. They got the ball rolling and woke up all Thai politicians to the power of politicising the poor. We could have easily done without the last five odd years of red shirt destruction and mayhem, and still the Dems and all the other parties, would have geared themselves towards the poor at election time, because they now know the poor hold the key to power, and as stupid as they can be (the politicians not the poor), i don't think they are going to forget in a hurry.

[jayboy]

The fact that the Democrat Party's political platform was geared toward the poor is entirely the influence of the redshirt movement.

Not quite true. Thaksin may indeed head up the red shirts, but it wasn't this particular movement of his that provided the catalyst for the increase in populist policies aimed at the poor, it was his TRT party that takes the credit for that. They got the ball rolling and woke up all Thai politicians to the power of politicising the poor. We could have easily done without the last five odd years of red shirt destruction and mayhem, and still the Dems and all the other parties, would have geared themselves towards the poor at election time, because they now know the poor hold the key to power, and as stupid as they can be (the politicians not the poor), i don't think they are going to forget in a hurry.

In other words Thaksin changed the political landscape of Thailand forever by mobilising the rural and poor majority - precisely what I have been saying for years.Gradually,slowly and painfully the truth is being recognised.

[rixalex]

In other words Thaksin changed the political landscape of Thailand forever by mobilising the rural and poor majority - precisely what I have been saying for years.Gradually,slowly and painfully the truth is being recognised.

Have never denied that he takes credit for politicising the poor. Have denied that he takes credit for actually achieving much in real terms for the poor. Perceptions have changed, sure, but the system remains the same. Haves and have nots are as far a part as they have ever been. You can of course claim that this is just the start and further down the soi the real prize will be revealed, but until that day comes, it means nothing.. not for those living in the dirt today.

Real change will happen the day somebody stands up for the poor not as part of some political game to win power, but because they actually give a dam_n and want to make a difference.

[AleG]

If it wasn't for the Red Shirts, the dissatisfaction of the poor with the way they have been marginalized over centuries - aggravated by the consumerism introduced from countries that most of us are from - would be left unexpressed. That would be great for some. For those making money out of low wages, for those who like low rent hookers, for those who can take power unquestioned. Wouldn't it be good if the poor just kept quiet as if they didn't exist so there would be no disruption to the workings of this country? Wouldn't it?

For those on this forum who profess so readily and sincerely to really having sympathy with the plight of poor people in Thailand it is pure hypocrisy to deny the importance of the Red Shirt movement in making that plight known in the first instance. Sympathy for the poorer classes? Yeah, right....

Or perhaps, that sense of disenfranchisement would had been expressed unconstrained by the machinations of the people that use the Red Shirts as a vehicle to access power. Or like Thaksin himself said, paraphrasing, "thanks for bringing me up to here, now I'll go to the top on my own".

Thaksin, the PTP and the UDD leadership have hijacked the cause of equality and fairness for the downtrodden as a means of gaining power and profit for themselves. There's no need for them to provide any meaningful progress in those areas, indeed, it's in their best interests to maintain the poor poor and ignorant and thus easily manipulated.

The different incarnations of Thaksin governments have been in power for nearly 20 years, they had plenty of time to push for real progress, yet here we are.

[15Peter20]

For those on this forum who profess so readily and sincerely to really having sympathy with the plight of poor people in Thailand it is pure hypocrisy to deny the importance of the Red Shirt movement in making that plight known in the first instance.

Complete hogwash. Many of us came here long before the red shirts were even a twinkle in Thaksin's eye. Didn't need the red shirts to know and understand about the plight of the poor working classes in Thailand then, and don't need them now.

Nice - you knew of the problems of the lower classes when they weren't represented nationally and that's exactly how you'd like them to stay - without representation or political leverage, which is the only way they will ever ease the plight you and others here condescend to endorse.

Whatever you think of the leadership, it simply can't be argued that had the red shirt movement not existed, the rights of the poor would still be as much a part of mainstream public awareness as it is now.

[15Peter20]

If it wasn't for the Red Shirts, the dissatisfaction of the poor with the way they have been marginalized over centuries - aggravated by the consumerism introduced from countries that most of us are from - would be left unexpressed. That would be great for some. For those making money out of low wages, for those who like low rent hookers, for those who can take power unquestioned. Wouldn't it be good if the poor just kept quiet as if they didn't exist so there would be no disruption to the workings of this country? Wouldn't it?

For those on this forum who profess so readily and sincerely to really having sympathy with the plight of poor people in Thailand it is pure hypocrisy to deny the importance of the Red Shirt movement in making that plight known in the first instance. Sympathy for the poorer classes? Yeah, right....

We on this forum do have sympathy for the poor of Thailand regardless of their political affiliation or color affiliation. The issue I have with the red movement is the leaders not the rank and file Somchai farmers, taxi drivers and other folks that are looking for a better life. The leaders are just as corrupt as the entire Shinawatra clan. Some of them are millionaires and all of the leaders could not care any less about the rank and file red shirt folks because they do not care anything at all. They do care about keeping them under their control just in case the puppet master requires an instant rebellion for any reason. Case in point, Thaksin's billions were seized and immediately buses were filled with red shirts and sent to Bangkok for the burn Bangkok campaign. The throwing them a bone occasionally seems to keep them on board. If the leaders loose control of the rank and file then their payments from the chosen one to the leaders will cease. That is why I detest these so called red shirt leader hypocrites.

Well if any other government apart from a Thaksin-sponsored one had ever 'thrown them a bone' (according to their own perception - which is the one that counts), maybe the poor of the land would be less susceptible to the kind of manipulation you suggest.

I hope you are not as naive to think that previous governments over the decades never made promises to the large, poor section of the electorate which have invariably failed to materialize.

[bigbamboo]

i do 'sympathize' with red shirt 'people'. there is a difference with sympathizing with the plight of those people and 'supporting everything they do and want' that not many here seem to either want or are able to see the difference between the two.

<snip>

Most posters here sympathize with the poor. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with the red shirts though.

Frankly who gives a toss about us lot, expats - mostly it would appear, to put it tactfully, not the best and brightest - with too much time on our hands.

But your question is an interesting one for Thailand at large.What is the decent attitude for a middle class well educated Thai who broadly accepts the status quo but feels that his/her country is dangerously unequal? It's all very well to say one sympathises with the poor (who doesn't) but what then is to be done? The Democrat opposition seems uncertain, on one hand broadly adopting and even expanding Thaksin's populist policies, yet maintaining links with quasi fascist PAD/Siam Pitak/Yellowshirt mob.I think it's only realistic to accept that the redshirts have concentrated the mind powerfully on the plight of the less well off sections of society.Much was the same in Europe in the mid - late nineteenth century with communists, anarchists and socialists fulfilling the redshirt.Gradually the main stream parties took over the interests of the poorer part of the population.An alternative of course would be for the redshirts to go main stream.As always success means compromise and accepting some things which previously seemed unacceptable.But in terms of putting the interests of the poor on the agenda the redshirts place in history is assured.

The yellow shirts are quasi fascist because they wanted to remove a dictator from power?

[15Peter20]

If it wasn't for the Red Shirts, the dissatisfaction of the poor with the way they have been marginalized over centuries - aggravated by the consumerism introduced from countries that most of us are from - would be left unexpressed. That would be great for some. For those making money out of low wages, for those who like low rent hookers, for those who can take power unquestioned. Wouldn't it be good if the poor just kept quiet as if they didn't exist so there would be no disruption to the workings of this country? Wouldn't it?

For those on this forum who profess so readily and sincerely to really having sympathy with the plight of poor people in Thailand it is pure hypocrisy to deny the importance of the Red Shirt movement in making that plight known in the first instance. Sympathy for the poorer classes? Yeah, right....

Or perhaps, that sense of disenfranchisement would had been expressed unconstrained by the machinations of the people that use the Red Shirts as a vehicle to access power. Or like Thaksin himself said, paraphrasing, "thanks for bringing me up to here, now I'll go to the top on my own".

Thaksin, the PTP and the UDD leadership have hijacked the cause of equality and fairness for the downtrodden as a means of gaining power and profit for themselves. There's no need for them to provide any meaningful progress in those areas, indeed, it's in their best interests to maintain the poor poor and ignorant and thus easily manipulated.

The different incarnations of Thaksin governments have been in power for nearly 20 years, they had plenty of time to push for real progress, yet here we are.

There's no need for them to provide any meaningful progress in those areas, indeed, it's in their best interests to maintain the poor poor and ignorant and thus easily manipulated.

Not providing meaningful progress over decades of different governments was what made it easy for Thaksin to come along and suddenly make the poorer classes feel he made a difference. He didn't have to lay out a detailed economic plan, he didn't have to guarantee anything about the future, he just had to make a bit of a difference in their real lives for once.

I would imagine if - as you say - the current administration doesn't do anything to further the situation of the poor, then they will vote for an alternative - provided it is perceived as being better, of course.

[Pimay1]

For those on this forum who profess so readily and sincerely to really having sympathy with the plight of poor people in Thailand it is pure hypocrisy to deny the importance of the Red Shirt movement in making that plight known in the first instance.

Complete hogwash. Many of us came here long before the red shirts were even a twinkle in Thaksin's eye. Didn't need the red shirts to know and understand about the plight of the poor working classes in Thailand then, and don't need them now.

Nice - you knew of the problems of the lower classes when they weren't represented nationally and that's exactly how you'd like them to stay - without representation or political leverage, which is the only way they will ever ease the plight you and others here condescend to endorse.

Whatever you think of the leadership, it simply can't be argued that had the red shirt movement not existed, the rights of the poor would still be as much a part of mainstream public awareness as it is now.

Me thinks either you are a troll or are simply ignoring the plain truth concerning the Thaksin plan of using the red shirts as useful idiots. I do not say they are useful idiots but for sure the Shinawatra clan considers them as much.

The rights of the poor have absolutely nothing to do with the Thaksin's plan.

[whybother]

Or perhaps, that sense of disenfranchisement would had been expressed unconstrained by the machinations of the people that use the Red Shirts as a vehicle to access power. Or like Thaksin himself said, paraphrasing, "thanks for bringing me up to here, now I'll go to the top on my own".

Thaksin, the PTP and the UDD leadership have hijacked the cause of equality and fairness for the downtrodden as a means of gaining power and profit for themselves. There's no need for them to provide any meaningful progress in those areas, indeed, it's in their best interests to maintain the poor poor and ignorant and thus easily manipulated.

The different incarnations of Thaksin governments have been in power for nearly 20 years, they had plenty of time to push for real progress, yet here we are.

There's no need for them to provide any meaningful progress in those areas, indeed, it's in their best interests to maintain the poor poor and ignorant and thus easily manipulated.

Not providing meaningful progress over decades of different governments was what made it easy for Thaksin to come along and suddenly make the poorer classes feel he made a difference. He didn't have to lay out a detailed economic plan, he didn't have to guarantee anything about the future, he just had to make a bit of a difference in their real lives for once.

I would imagine if - as you say - the current administration doesn't do anything to further the situation of the poor, then they will vote for an alternative - provided it is perceived as being better, of course.

"feel he made a difference" - that the crux of it, isn't it. Thaksin hasn't actually made a difference over nearly a decade that he has effectively been in power.

[whybother]

Frankly who gives a toss about us lot, expats - mostly it would appear, to put it tactfully, not the best and brightest - with too much time on our hands.

But your question is an interesting one for Thailand at large.What is the decent attitude for a middle class well educated Thai who broadly accepts the status quo but feels that his/her country is dangerously unequal? It's all very well to say one sympathises with the poor (who doesn't) but what then is to be done? The Democrat opposition seems uncertain, on one hand broadly adopting and even expanding Thaksin's populist policies, yet maintaining links with quasi fascist PAD/Siam Pitak/Yellowshirt mob.I think it's only realistic to accept that the redshirts have concentrated the mind powerfully on the plight of the less well off sections of society.Much was the same in Europe in the mid - late nineteenth century with communists, anarchists and socialists fulfilling the redshirt.Gradually the main stream parties took over the interests of the poorer part of the population.An alternative of course would be for the redshirts to go main stream.As always success means compromise and accepting some things which previously seemed unacceptable.But in terms of putting the interests of the poor on the agenda the redshirts place in history is assured.

What links to the Democrats currently have to the "PAD/Siam Pitak/Yellow shirt mob"?

[rixalex]

Nice - you knew of the problems of the lower classes when they weren't represented nationally and that's exactly how you'd like them to stay - without representation or political leverage, which is the only way they will ever ease the plight you and others here condescend to endorse.

Stop making stupid baseless rude assumptions. I want nothing more than for the poor to be represented. To date they haven't been. They have been used as a stepping stone in a fight for power.

Whatever you think of the leadership, it simply can't be argued that had the red shirt movement not existed, the rights of the poor would still be as much a part of mainstream public awareness as it is now.

Possibly so, but i'm far more interested in what actually in real terms has been done, and is being done, to help these people, than what is in the mainstream public awareness. Talk is cheap. Anyone or any group can call themselves noble things like pro-democracy, pro-helping the poor, but until they actually get out and start doing something towards those things, it all means frankly sod all.

[15Peter20]

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Edited November 3, 2012 by 15Peter20

[15Peter20]

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Edited November 3, 2012 by 15Peter20

[15Peter20]

browser fart...

Edited November 3, 2012 by 15Peter20

[15Peter20]

Nice - you knew of the problems of the lower classes when they weren't represented nationally and that's exactly how you'd like them to stay - without representation or political leverage, which is the only way they will ever ease the plight you and others here condescend to endorse.

Stop making stupid baseless rude assumptions. I want nothing more than for the poor to be represented. To date they haven't been. They have been used as a stepping stone in a fight for power.

Whatever you think of the leadership, it simply can't be argued that had the red shirt movement not existed, the rights of the poor would still be as much a part of mainstream public awareness as it is now.

Possibly so, but i'm far more interested in what actually in real terms has been done, and is being done, to help these people, than what is in the mainstream public awareness. Talk is cheap. Anyone or any group can call themselves noble things like pro-democracy, pro-helping the poor, but until they actually get out and start doing something towards those things, it all means frankly sod all.

Well I may have overstepped the mark by saying you didn't want representation for the poor - I don't know that for a fact. But to say the red shirt movement doesn't represent the poor is at best arguable. We are talking in general terms after all.

I think the red shirt movement has started doing something towards the 'noble things' the seek to promote.

[mrtoad]

The Red Shirt movement was not set up to benefit the poor, it was set up to benefit the DL. Once he has got what he wants, they will be discarded. When there is a political movement without any links to the usual suspects representing the poor then it may have a bit more credibility.

[Pimay1]

Nice - you knew of the problems of the lower classes when they weren't represented nationally and that's exactly how you'd like them to stay - without representation or political leverage, which is the only way they will ever ease the plight you and others here condescend to endorse.

Stop making stupid baseless rude assumptions. I want nothing more than for the poor to be represented. To date they haven't been. They have been used as a stepping stone in a fight for power.

Whatever you think of the leadership, it simply can't be argued that had the red shirt movement not existed, the rights of the poor would still be as much a part of mainstream public awareness as it is now.

Possibly so, but i'm far more interested in what actually in real terms has been done, and is being done, to help these people, than what is in the mainstream public awareness. Talk is cheap. Anyone or any group can call themselves noble things like pro-democracy, pro-helping the poor, but until they actually get out and start doing something towards those things, it all means frankly sod all.

Okay, so I probably overstepped the mark saying you didn't want the poor to be represented but to say that the red shirt movement doesn't represent them is at best arguable.

I think the red shirts have 'started doing something towards' the 'noble things' they seek to promote..

As I stated before the rank and file red shirt farmer, taxi driver, ect are convinced that the red shirt leaders have their best interest in mind. I live in a red shirt community in Udon and have many discussions with my neighbors about this. These people have the right idea about wanting to improve their livelihood and be able to send their children to universities so they will have a better life. They fail to understand they are only prawns in Thaksin's quest to return to Thailand as a free man and regain his ill gotten gains. Many of them still believe Thaksin paid off the IMF loan with his own money. They watch the red shirt TV channel daily and are continuously brainwashed with lies. If you do not believe me tune in yourself and take a look.

I feel sorry for these people as they are continuously duped into believing the Thaksin machine will lift them out of poverty. What they need is an honest person to become the red shirt leader and truly work for them without a personal agenda of enriching his/her bank account.

[rixalex]

Well I may have overstepped the mark by saying you didn't want representation for the poor - I don't know that for a fact.

You don't know it for anything, let alone for a fact.

I have found that to not support the reds, is often to be attacked by them in some shape or form. You don't support the reds? OK, that must mean you are against the rights of the poor. You must be some sort of an evil incompassionate elitist bastard

It's a nonsense. I don't support the reds because i am strongly in favour of the rights of the poor, and i believe the red movement does not have any of their interests at heart. Yes it is true they may offer hope to some, and it is also true there may be few alternatives for people to get behind, but in my view it is a false hope that will get the poor nowhere - the last ten years of Shin rule have surely demonstrated this, because what has changed?

The poor investing their time and energy supporting the red movement is to me akin to the poor spending their money week in week out, buying lottery tickets. Lottery tickets give them hope and something to dream about, but go visit them in ten, twenty years from now, and how many of them will be millionaires and how many of them will be in exactly the same circumstances as they are in now, albeit thousands of baht poorer for all the money spent on the tickets.

The red movement might not be a waste of their money, but it certainly is a waste of their time. One day they will i believe realise this. How long that takes and how much damage is done in the interim by those few at the top benefiting from all this deception.... time will tell.

[thaicbr]

actually ... one of the biggest problems in this country is the belief that you have to send your children to university....just to get a good job..which unfortunately they do.

The use of a degree for a fairly mediocre job is almost laughable.. until they get sorted out that companies train workers for the job in hand. and give those same people a chance to advance on merit. The whole country will stagnate.

[15Peter20]

As I stated before the rank and file red shirt farmer, taxi driver, ect are convinced that the red shirt leaders have their best interest in mind. I live in a red shirt community in Udon and have many discussions with my neighbors about this. These people have the right idea about wanting to improve their livelihood and be able to send their children to universities so they will have a better life. They fail to understand they are only prawns in Thaksin's quest to return to Thailand as a free man and regain his ill gotten gains. Many of them still believe Thaksin paid off the IMF loan with his own money. They watch the red shirt TV channel daily and are continuously brainwashed with lies. If you do not believe me tune in yourself and take a look.

I feel sorry for these people as they are continuously duped into believing the Thaksin machine will lift them out of poverty. What they need is an honest person to become the red shirt leader and truly work for them without a personal agenda of enriching his/her bank account.

I think you underestimate your neighbors.

The Thai electorate are no strangers to broken promises. I would suggest that the reason they like Thaksin is not simply for what he might promise to do for them in future. They know all politicians use promises at election time that they rarely if ever deliver. They like Thaksin because in their eyes not only has he delivered in the past, but he appears as a martyr to them partly for having delivered. You can tell me you think that's crap, but I'm not the one to persuade.

As for red shirt TV, yes of course its biased. Otherwise it wouldn't be Red Shirt TV.

Edited November 3, 2012 by 15Peter20

[asiawatcher]

If it wasn't for the Red Shirts, the dissatisfaction of the poor with the way they have been marginalized over centuries - aggravated by the consumerism introduced from countries that most of us are from - would be left unexpressed. That would be great for some. For those making money out of low wages, for those who like low rent hookers, for those who can take power unquestioned. Wouldn't it be good if the poor just kept quiet as if they didn't exist so there would be no disruption to the workings of this country? Wouldn't it?

For those on this forum who profess so readily and sincerely to really having sympathy with the plight of poor people in Thailand it is pure hypocrisy to deny the importance of the Red Shirt movement in making that plight known in the first instance. Sympathy for the poorer classes? Yeah, right....

We on this forum do have sympathy for the poor of Thailand regardless of their political affiliation or color affiliation. The issue I have with the red movement is the leaders not the rank and file Somchai farmers, taxi drivers and other folks that are looking for a better life. The leaders are just as corrupt as the entire Shinawatra clan. Some of them are millionaires and all of the leaders could not care any less about the rank and file red shirt folks because they do not care anything at all. They do care about keeping them under their control just in case the puppet master requires an instant rebellion for any reason. Case in point, Thaksin's billions were seized and immediately buses were filled with red shirts and sent to Bangkok for the burn Bangkok campaign. The throwing them a bone occasionally seems to keep them on board. If the leaders loose control of the rank and file then their payments from the chosen one to the leaders will cease. That is why I detest these so called red shirt leader hypocrites.

Well if any other government apart from a Thaksin-sponsored one had ever 'thrown them a bone' (according to their own perception - which is the one that counts), maybe the poor of the land would be less susceptible to the kind of manipulation you suggest.

I hope you are not as naive to think that previous governments over the decades never made promises to the large, poor section of the electorate which have invariably failed to materialize.

Perhaps you should look at what Abhisit actually did achieve for the poor before you make such ridiculous statements. And if he actually had support from within his own party, he at least could have taken them to a far better level than the fools they backed into govt. Som num na.

[15Peter20]

Well I may have overstepped the mark by saying you didn't want representation for the poor - I don't know that for a fact.

You don't know it for anything, let alone for a fact.

I have found that to not support the reds, is often to be attacked by them in some shape or form. You don't support the reds? OK, that must mean you are against the rights of the poor. You must be some sort of an evil incompassionate elitist bastard

It's a nonsense. I don't support the reds because i am strongly in favour of the rights of the poor, and i believe the red movement does not have any of their interests at heart. Yes it is true they may offer hope to some, and it is also true there may be few alternatives for people to get behind, but in my view it is a false hope that will get the poor nowhere - the last ten years of Shin rule have surely demonstrated this, because what has changed?

The poor investing their time and energy supporting the red movement is to me akin to the poor spending their money week in week out, buying lottery tickets. Lottery tickets give them hope and something to dream about, but go visit them in ten, twenty years from now, and how many of them will be millionaires and how many of them will be in exactly the same circumstances as they are in now, albeit thousands of baht poorer for all the money spent on the tickets.

The red movement might not be a waste of their money, but it certainly is a waste of their time. One day they will i believe realise this. How long that takes and how much damage is done in the interim by those few at the top benefiting from all this deception.... time will tell.

If there is a deception at hand, then it will come to and end - hopefully - when enough supporters of the red shirt movement (as an important part of the PTP vote) feel that they have not benefited enough from the current government, and not at the behest of people with the biggest guns and their sponsors.

[15Peter20]

We on this forum do have sympathy for the poor of Thailand regardless of their political affiliation or color affiliation. The issue I have with the red movement is the leaders not the rank and file Somchai farmers, taxi drivers and other folks that are looking for a better life. The leaders are just as corrupt as the entire Shinawatra clan. Some of them are millionaires and all of the leaders could not care any less about the rank and file red shirt folks because they do not care anything at all. They do care about keeping them under their control just in case the puppet master requires an instant rebellion for any reason. Case in point, Thaksin's billions were seized and immediately buses were filled with red shirts and sent to Bangkok for the burn Bangkok campaign. The throwing them a bone occasionally seems to keep them on board. If the leaders loose control of the rank and file then their payments from the chosen one to the leaders will cease. That is why I detest these so called red shirt leader hypocrites.

Well if any other government apart from a Thaksin-sponsored one had ever 'thrown them a bone' (according to their own perception - which is the one that counts), maybe the poor of the land would be less susceptible to the kind of manipulation you suggest.

I hope you are not as naive to think that previous governments over the decades never made promises to the large, poor section of the electorate which have invariably failed to materialize.

Perhaps you should look at what Abhisit actually did achieve for the poor before you make such ridiculous statements. And if he actually had support from within his own party, he at least could have taken them to a far better level than the fools they backed into govt. Som num na.

Don't you think the poor are the best people to ask about what Abhisit did for the poor? Or do you know better than them how they lived before and how they live now?