Ample It’s Truly Not

[zzap]

Well said, Kat.

[ilyushin]

Thai SEC investigate?

[Heng]

Problem is it ISN'T a lawful society. They make laws to appear advanced, not to follow them.

Even western educated Heng doesn't feel that it's wrong to shoot 20-30 people in his neighbourhood without trials.

How can you argue with that? You need some common values to have a meaningful discussion.

You know, I was going to take issue with Heng's assertion, but then, as you succinctly put it... How can I? It would be pointless to have a discussion without the shared value that people shouldn't be murdered willy-nilly in the streets. Thank you for saving me from the trouble of wasting my time, Plus...

I'm not trying to convince anyone that all those killed were indeed drug dealers. I am however convinced that my neighborhood is a better place because of the cleanup and those killed were indeed dealers. I had nothing against them, and certainly am not someone who would turn criminals in (as due process simply doesn't work here for those with even the most minor connections... but hey, that's not important in a perfect world academic debate, eh?), but I was aware of their profession, in the same way I know where the 7-11 is, who sells snacks and souvenirs, who owns the internet cafes, who runs the paint shop, and who was dealing. All but the latter are still alive and well and doing business as usual. RIP

news flash, Heng..... they're simply doing the same job more covertly 2 blocks over...

It'd be even more pointless to have a discussion with those who think that drug dealers are people.

Newsflash John, I have interests two blocks over as well, and I don't see it. And I 'see' more than you see.

[Heng]

Everyone knows that it's Taksin's money, not his children's,

Everyone knows (even foreigners who have been ripped by bargirls "families") that the individual and the family is often one and the same here.

[Heng]

I'm not trying to convince anyone that all those killed were indeed drug dealers. I am however convinced that my neighborhood is a better place because of the cleanup and those killed were indeed dealers. I had nothing against them, and certainly am not someone who would turn criminals in (as due process simply doesn't work here for those with even the most minor connections... but hey, that's not important in a perfect world academic debate, eh?), but I was aware of their profession, in the same way I know where the 7-11 is, who sells snacks and souvenirs, who owns the internet cafes, who runs the paint shop, and who was dealing. All but the latter are still alive and well and doing business as usual. RIP

Well, I'm sure that the people whose brains were spilled out onto the streets for all to see including their children in some cases, without an investigation or trial, would argue that it was quite concrete, and not academic at all; of course, this is assuming that they or anyone would be able to investigate or argue their case if they were around - that's the academic part.

I could go on - innocent people who take the fall for "minor connected" people; activists that are murdered for taking a stand; an endless supply of corrupt politicians and the entire institution of law enforcemnt and the judiciary. And since the demand for public institutions to actually do their jobs has never been heeded, they don't.

One could argue that the constitution and entire premise of governance in this country is academic, because nothing is enforced thanks to very rich, well-connected, influential figures.

I agree that the folks you mention wouldn't feel this was an academic discussion. Neither would the guy who pushes his sa-leng around collecting plastic bottles from us who once had a future that was to be well funded by drug money, but now will be funded by the garbage generated by the citizens of our soi.

And yes, one could indeed argue "nothing is enforced thanks to very rich, well-connected, influential figures".... although I'd change 'nothing' to 'laws are selectively enforced, often well enforced, particularly against those who operate outside of the legal framework.'

For myself though, not connected, not an influential figure, the system works. Of course I've never been one to strive for a utopia for all. I do feel though that the local environment is one where one can easily create a perfect world for oneself and one's family.

[zzap]

It'd be even more pointless to have a discussion with those who think that drug dealers are people.

Newsflash John, I have interests two blocks over as well, and I don't see it. And I 'see' more than you see.

You obviously never met a 'drug dealer'.

Or maybe you didn't recognise them, they look, talk and act as 'people'.

I suggest you get yourself some glasses, too, so you'l 'see' more clearly...

[Siripon]

A major flaw of the drugs war a couple of years ago was the targets set by those at the top. Governors, police chiefs and those down the chain, were told lists of suspects had to be drawn up, with a certain percentage,I think 70 percent, 'dealt with'. There was pressure on the authorities,'sales targets', deadlines, lists were drawn up hurriedly from information that could have been bogus or even out of revenge.

In the King's speech 2 years ago he asked Thaksin to investigate all the killings, how much progress so far?

[Ricardo]

Bangkok Herald-Examiner

To commemorate and immortalize the largest trade in it's history, the Stock Exchange of Thailand proudly unveiled this new monument that will be centrally located on the trading floor as a testament to it's ability to attract top-quality, world-class traders.

Titled “Shint”, it was constructed from all-natural products and was crafted by famed sculptor, Dump A. Load.

Would this sculptor Dump A. Load be in any way related to Plop Plop, the architect of the Night Safari Buffet artwork ?

[Heng]

It'd be even more pointless to have a discussion with those who think that drug dealers are people.

Newsflash John, I have interests two blocks over as well, and I don't see it. And I 'see' more than you see.

You obviously never met a 'drug dealer'.

Or maybe you didn't recognise them, they look, talk and act as 'people'.

I suggest you get yourself some glasses, too, so you'l 'see' more clearly...

Actually I have, and yes, they do APPEAR to look, talk, and act as people. 20/20.

[tettyan]

And when did I say that? By your logic, I can conclude that you're the type of person that wants drug dealers on the street and children smoking ya baa.

I am not in favor of having drug dealers on the street. On the other hand, I believe that if someone is guilty of breaking the law, THEY ARE ENTITLED TO THEIR DAY IN COURT! Encouraging respect for the RULE OF LAW is the only long term solution to fighting crime and corruption in this country. Simply killing those you suspect of wrongdoing vigilante style makes you no better that the criminals themselves - it's like fighting fire with fire.

You obviously didn't take a look at the Adolf Eichmann link ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann ) that I left for you. I suggest that you do. Even a man as despicable as that was given his day in court. Surely those "alleged" drug dealers deserve the same level of treatment.

Thinking back, even Thaksin was given his day in court back in 2001 back when he was accused of corruption by the NCCC. Maybe next time the NCCC can just "take care of him" the same way the police took care of the drug dealers in your neighborhood.

Edited February 10, 2006 by tettyan

[phuketsiam]

I'm not trying to convince anyone that all those killed were indeed drug dealers. I am however convinced that my neighborhood is a better place because of the cleanup and those killed were indeed dealers. I had nothing against them, and certainly am not someone who would turn criminals in (as due process simply doesn't work here for those with even the most minor connections... but hey, that's not important in a perfect world academic debate, eh?), but I was aware of their profession, in the same way I know where the 7-11 is, who sells snacks and souvenirs, who owns the internet cafes, who runs the paint shop, and who was dealing. All but the latter are still alive and well and doing business as usual. RIP

Heng

you hit the nail on the head, due process doesn't work in Thailand, so why bother, actually it doesn't work anywhere (perfectly) but it works better in some places than others. But don't you feel than in the interests of social and economical development it would be better to try to improve the flawed system rather than just bypass it whenever it suits a short term gain.

I sometimes think that the development of a country can be measured by the quality and fairness of its justice system, the sense of justice is one of the more noble of human traits. When people live in a society where they are treated fairly and justly their quality of life is improved regardless of their economic status. For example if enjoyed the same lifestyle you did you now but you and your family were persecuted on account of being Thai-Chinese (and not Thai) - this is what happened to even affluent Jews in Hitler's Germany - your quality of life would be poorer and you would be in favour of a more just system. Or another way, imagine you lost a piece of valuable property because a well connected Thai had land documents forged, and because he was better connected than you, legal recourse was fruitless etc, in this case of course you would prefer a more just system where you and others were living in fairer system. I don't expect you to disagree with above examples (although you may ) - but I am challanging your (percieved) stance that the system is fine because you are OK, but just because you are OK that doesn't mean the system shouldn't be improved and those who strive to improve are doing an honourable thing and should be applauded for that, regardless of whether it improves your or my little lot. By this I don't mean a prerfect world or an academic debate, but real world problems that affect real people who hurt and feel loss in the same way we do.

By all means get drug dealers of the street, they cause a lot of the pain, but the ends doesn't always justify the means, or where do we stop applying any form of attempted justice and just all act of jury and executioner when it suits us?

[Heng]

And when did I say that? By your logic, I can conclude that you're the type of person that wants drug dealers on the street and children smoking ya baa.

it's like fighting fire with fire.

You obviously didn't take a look at the Adolf Eichmann link

You are correct on these two points.

[zzap]

You obviously never met a 'drug dealer'.

Or maybe you didn't recognise them, they look, talk and act as 'people'.

I suggest you get yourself some glasses, too, so you'l 'see' more clearly...

Actually I have, and yes, they do APPEAR to look, talk, and act as people. 20/20.

Could this be so because they are people?

BTW, I've heard some loan sharks APPEAR to be people, too. Any truth in this, Heng?

[Heng]

I'm not trying to convince anyone that all those killed were indeed drug dealers. I am however convinced that my neighborhood is a better place because of the cleanup and those killed were indeed dealers. I had nothing against them, and certainly am not someone who would turn criminals in (as due process simply doesn't work here for those with even the most minor connections... but hey, that's not important in a perfect world academic debate, eh?), but I was aware of their profession, in the same way I know where the 7-11 is, who sells snacks and souvenirs, who owns the internet cafes, who runs the paint shop, and who was dealing. All but the latter are still alive and well and doing business as usual. RIP

When people live in a society where they are treated fairly and justly their quality of life is improved regardless of their economic status. For example if enjoyed the same lifestyle you did you now but you and your family were persecuted on account of being Thai-Chinese (and not Thai) - this is what happened to even affluent Jews in Hitler's Germany - your quality of life would be poorer and you would be in favour of a more just system. Or another way, imagine you lost a piece of valuable property because a well connected Thai had land documents forged, and because he was better connected than you, legal recourse was fruitless etc, in this case of course you would prefer a more just system where you and others were living in fairer system. I don't expect you to disagree with above examples (although you may ) - but I am challanging your (percieved) stance that the system is fine because you are OK, but just because you are OK that doesn't mean the system shouldn't be improved and those who strive to improve are doing an honourable thing and should be applauded for that, regardless of whether it improves your or my little lot. By this I don't mean a prerfect world or an academic debate, but real world problems that affect real people who hurt and feel loss in the same way we do.

Actually in the not so distant past, and not so well recorded in local history, the Thai-Chinese were indeed persecuted. There was a time when we couldn't open Chinese schools and couldn't travel late at night on the klongs (those with Chinese accents were often attacked by police simply for not speaking Thai clearly). In response, we changed the system by completely taking it over, over the course of generations. And no, it wasn't a planned effort, it was through each individual family (and naturally their extended distant relations both near and far) taking care of their own, creating our world one house, one shophouse, one classroom, one business, one factory, one policy academy, one army division, and finally one court room at a time.

In other words, in regards to your property documents forgery problem (or any injustice), fight when appropriate, remain still when appropriate, and if victory over the stronger party is impossible, simply grow stronger and wait, knowing that either we'll outlast or envelope the other party in the long term.

[phuketsiam]

Heng

I was aware the Thai persecution of the ethnic chinese, there is even a Thai drama depicting it on TV at the mo, but my point was what do you prefer, a fairer society or a dog eat dog one, for every war there is always a loser, one day it may be you . Is it better to fight for justice for all or be selfish and fight only for your own interests?

[Heng]

You obviously never met a 'drug dealer'.

Or maybe you didn't recognise them, they look, talk and act as 'people'.

I suggest you get yourself some glasses, too, so you'l 'see' more clearly...

Actually I have, and yes, they do APPEAR to look, talk, and act as people. 20/20.

Could this be so because they are people?

BTW, I've heard some loan sharks APPEAR to be people, too. Any truth in this, Heng?

We provide a service no different than banks or finance companies, and we're licensed by the same folks.

[Heng]

Heng

I was aware the Thai persecution of the ethnic chinese, there is even a Thai drama depicting it on TV at the mo, but my point was what do you prefer, a fairer society or a dog eat dog one, for every war there is always a loser, one day it may be you . Is it better to fight for justice for all or be selfish and fight only for your own interests?

My point of view is clearly stated, Phuketsiam. And I'm not going to judge which is better, although from the state of affairs today compared to say 50-100 years ago, the results speak for themselves.

And I agree there will always be wars.

[phuketsiam]

If it was clearly stated, I missed it - sorry about that

yes your right, things are improving - slowly, and there will always be wars

[Heng]

If it was clearly stated, I missed it - sorry about that

yes your right, things are improving - slowly, and there will always be wars

My take is the diametric opposite to your point of view ("Is it better to fight for justice for all or be selfish and fight only for your own interests?")

I feel that it's selfish to take care of others (and perhaps worse to take care of "everyone") before your family.

[dan10400]

You obviously never met a 'drug dealer'.

Or maybe you didn't recognise them, they look, talk and act as 'people'.

I suggest you get yourself some glasses, too, so you'l 'see' more clearly...

Actually I have, and yes, they do APPEAR to look, talk, and act as people. 20/20.

Could this be so because they are people?

BTW, I've heard some loan sharks APPEAR to be people, too. Any truth in this, Heng?

We provide a service no different than banks or finance companies, and we're licensed by the same folks.

so how do you distinguish between a borrower (someone who uses their local loan

shark) and a drug dealer if they both look like everyday (sic) people?

deadbeat borrower == drug dealer????

no inferences to anybody, but these are what one might logically conclude from the

previous discussion.

[phuketsiam]

actually my take is family first then friends but save some compassion for others

when I was caught up in the Tsunami my priorities were clear, I took care of my wife and child first and in the process helped out some of my wifes (then) employees (her idea actually) after that I made some effort to help some stranded farang tourists with emergancy supply's, to this day I wish I had been able to do more for them, but wife and child are fine and thats the main thing

thanks for clarifing btw

[Heng]

You obviously never met a 'drug dealer'.

Or maybe you didn't recognise them, they look, talk and act as 'people'.

I suggest you get yourself some glasses, too, so you'l 'see' more clearly...

Actually I have, and yes, they do APPEAR to look, talk, and act as people. 20/20.

Could this be so because they are people?

BTW, I've heard some loan sharks APPEAR to be people, too. Any truth in this, Heng?

We provide a service no different than banks or finance companies, and we're licensed by the same folks.

so how do you distinguish between a borrower (someone who uses their local loan

shark) and a drug dealer if they both look like everyday (sic) people?

deadbeat borrower == drug dealer????

no inferences to anybody, but these are what one might logically conclude from the

previous discussion.

This particular couple made no effort at all to hide their profession.

As for deadbeat borrowers, we're not that kind of pawn shop. We only serve those with real estate that can be used as collateral. No broken arms, legs, and to be frank, rarely any swear words. It's more along the lines of "this is a reminder that your contract expires on ...... where your property signed over to us by power of attorney will become our property.... you can avoid this by making an interest payment in the amount of...." Kind of like a down home Citibank. We're nearly 98% paperless too!

[tettyan]

And when did I say that? By your logic, I can conclude that you're the type of person that wants drug dealers on the street and children smoking ya baa.

it's like fighting fire with fire.

You obviously didn't take a look at the Adolf Eichmann link

You are correct on these two points.

OK Heng,

If it's your house that happens to be burning down, I'll be sure to help you fight it with more fire.

Edited February 10, 2006 by tettyan

[Heng]

And when did I say that? By your logic, I can conclude that you're the type of person that wants drug dealers on the street and children smoking ya baa.

it's like fighting fire with fire.

You obviously didn't take a look at the Adolf Eichmann link

You are correct on these two points.

OK Heng,

If it's your house that happens to be burning down, I'll be sure to help you fight it with more fire.

Thanks anyway, but I think firefighter is on the restricted occupations list. Stick to whatever it is you're doing now.

[sriracha john]

Problem is it ISN'T a lawful society. They make laws to appear advanced, not to follow them.

Even western educated Heng doesn't feel that it's wrong to shoot 20-30 people in his neighbourhood without trials.

How can you argue with that? You need some common values to have a meaningful discussion.

You know, I was going to take issue with Heng's assertion, but then, as you succinctly put it... How can I? It would be pointless to have a discussion without the shared value that people shouldn't be murdered willy-nilly in the streets. Thank you for saving me from the trouble of wasting my time, Plus...

I'm not trying to convince anyone that all those killed were indeed drug dealers. I am however convinced that my neighborhood is a better place because of the cleanup and those killed were indeed dealers. I had nothing against them, and certainly am not someone who would turn criminals in (as due process simply doesn't work here for those with even the most minor connections... but hey, that's not important in a perfect world academic debate, eh?), but I was aware of their profession, in the same way I know where the 7-11 is, who sells snacks and souvenirs, who owns the internet cafes, who runs the paint shop, and who was dealing. All but the latter are still alive and well and doing business as usual. RIP

news flash, Heng..... they're simply doing the same job more covertly 2 blocks over...

It'd be even more pointless to have a discussion with those who think that drug dealers are people.

Newsflash John, I have interests two blocks over as well, and I don't see it. And I 'see' more than you see.

Are traffic speeders people? Committing a crime can strip you of your freedom, but not your humanity.

As said before, the dealers are simply more covert. If you think Bangkok has been freed of drugs, you don't "see" much. Name any neigbhorhood in Bangkok, and there's drugs that can be obtained within a 1/2 hour of the location. But that's ok... go on thinking there are none. The dealers like people to have that delusion.

If we are to take you at face value that your are everything you say you are, then with your nose so high in the air, frankly I'd be amazed that you can see ANYTHING at ground level.

Everyone knows that it's Taksin's money, not his children's,

Everyone knows (even foreigners who have been ripped by bargirls "families") that the individual and the family is often one and the same here.

Except when it comes to very specific legal documents that must be submitted and signed by the individual, not "any family member".

But hey, if it's all just one big happy family, send Dad to jail along with Junior.

[sriracha john]

You obviously never met a 'drug dealer'.

Or maybe you didn't recognise them, they look, talk and act as 'people'.

I suggest you get yourself some glasses, too, so you'l 'see' more clearly...

Actually I have, and yes, they do APPEAR to look, talk, and act as people. 20/20.

Could this be so because they are people?

BTW, I've heard some loan sharks APPEAR to be people, too. Any truth in this, Heng?

We provide a service no different than banks or finance companies, and we're licensed by the same folks.

That's the same as saying drug dealers are no different than the pharmacies.... just missing the "license" from any local forgery shop.

When's the crackdown and War On Loan Sharks begin? With the subsequent non-judicial multiple killings in the streets of these loan sharks?

[Boon Mee]

Panthongtae and Pinthongta Shinawatra may not have Ample office space, but they are now very much more Rich.

And definitely the worst PM in Thailand's history!

[tettyan]

OK Heng,

If it's your house that happens to be burning down, I'll be sure to help you fight it with more fire.

Thanks anyway, but I think firefighter is on the restricted occupations list. Stick to whatever it is you're doing now.

Since I hold Thai citizenship, that's not a problem for me.

So, how about my suggestion for how the NCCC should "deal with" Thaksin? It was inspired by the fine example he set in dealing with your local drug dealers.

[Heng]

Are traffic speeders people? Committing a crime can strip you of your freedom, but not your humanity.

As said before, the dealers are simply more covert. If you think Bangkok has been freed of drugs, you don't "see" much. Name any neigbhorhood in Bangkok, and there's drugs that can be obtained within a 1/2 hour of the location. But that's ok... go on thinking there are none. The dealers like people to have that delusion.

If we are to take you at face value that your are everything you say you are, then with your nose so high in the air, frankly I'd be amazed that you can see ANYTHING at ground level.

Everyone knows that it's Taksin's money, not his children's,

Everyone knows (even foreigners who have been ripped by bargirls "families") that the individual and the family is often one and the same here.

Except when it comes to very specific legal documents that must be submitted and signed by the individual, not "any family member".

But hey, if it's all just one big happy family, send Dad to jail along with Junior.

(stretches) Morning all.

Traffic speeder yes. And no, some crimes make you an animal. There's just drug dealing (and I don't include pharmacies in that category) and murder on that list for me. Apparently it's not on your list.

I didn't say Bangkok was freed from narcotics dealers. They are there, and the industry itself is likely as profitable as ever (exports to countries with weak anti narcotics legislation are as strong as ever). However along Soi Yensabai (Pattaya), there aren't customers and dealers openly dealing/loitering. If anywhere, they are back in the closets where they belong. Those who were formerly dealers (as a family) are not back in business. The norm for the underworld is a slap on the wrist and then back to work. Not in this case. That's progress. As for our other family base in Bangkok, it was drug free to begin with as the neighborhood is private soi.

And actually I encounter folks at ground level everyday. Our customers are everyday folks. It's only at the end of the day when I take the elevator up.

And no, the legal framework doesn't change what is the norm here regarding family finances, from the poorest of the poor all the way to the top. That changes the perception from 'corporate fraud' to nothing more than 'poor handling of the paperwork.' Those you see up in arms suffer from your own "I don't know where to vent my own personal frustrations from what I myself have sown, I may as well vent at the PM" mentality.

You obviously never met a 'drug dealer'.

Or maybe you didn't recognise them, they look, talk and act as 'people'.

I suggest you get yourself some glasses, too, so you'l 'see' more clearly...

Actually I have, and yes, they do APPEAR to look, talk, and act as people. 20/20.

Could this be so because they are people?

BTW, I've heard some loan sharks APPEAR to be people, too. Any truth in this, Heng?

We provide a service no different than banks or finance companies, and we're licensed by the same folks.

That's the same as saying drug dealers are no different than the pharmacies.... just missing the "license" from any local forgery shop.

When's the crackdown and War On Loan Sharks begin? With the subsequent non-judicial multiple killings in the streets of these loan sharks?

Shooting from the hip and missing as usual, John. That particular family business is a licensed business. It's no different from someone trying to set up a full service bank on a photocopied license. It doesn't work that way.

Any crackdown on unlicensed loan sharks is good for business. I'd welcome it.

OK Heng,

If it's your house that happens to be burning down, I'll be sure to help you fight it with more fire.

Thanks anyway, but I think firefighter is on the restricted occupations list. Stick to whatever it is you're doing now.

Since I hold Thai citizenship, that's not a problem for me.

So, how about my suggestion for how the NCCC should "deal with" Thaksin? It was inspired by the fine example he set in dealing with your local drug dealers.

I think whatever way they want to deal with this situation will be fine by me.

Edited February 11, 2006 by Heng

[tettyan]

OK Heng,

If it's your house that happens to be burning down, I'll be sure to help you fight it with more fire.

Thanks anyway, but I think firefighter is on the restricted occupations list. Stick to whatever it is you're doing now.

Since I hold Thai citizenship, that's not a problem for me.

So, how about my suggestion for how the NCCC should "deal with" Thaksin? It was inspired by the fine example he set in dealing with your local drug dealers.

I think whatever way they want to deal with this situation will be fine by me.

Awesome! So let me suggest to the anti-corruption crusaders that they should "accomodate" Thaksin in the same manner the police took care of that lawyer Somchai.