You got it in1 scene

scenario 4 Dave gets an ATM and if you wish to use your credit card or debit card you use the machine and Dave looses no money dosen't have to charge more and you get to use your credit card and at the end of the month have a list of where you spent your money.

That would be a win win.

Bzzzt.

At the risk of being called a penis again...

That only works for debit cards, and only if your debit card doesn't charge you a transaction fee (or a horrible exchange rate) for withdrawals.

For credit cards, you'd be taking a cash advance. No 'free' interest on cash advances. Scenario 4 - credit card company win. Again.

You got it in1 scene

scenario 4 Dave gets an ATM and if you wish to use your credit card or debit card you use the machine and Dave looses no money dosen't have to charge more and you get to use your credit card and at the end of the month have a list of where you spent your money.

That would be a win win.

Bzzzt.

At the risk of being called a penis again...

That only works for debit cards, and only if your debit card doesn't charge you a transaction fee (or a horrible exchange rate) for withdrawals.

For credit cards, you'd be taking a cash advance. No 'free' interest on cash advances. Scenario 4 - credit card company win. Again.

I do it every month at the bank go home pay it off right away on my computer and at the end of the month I still get my account of activities for the month.

win win.

bobl, here's another scenario.

I (cc) pay 1000 for 976 television. You pay 1000 cash for 976 television. I get 30 daiy float and convenience.

A new all cash store opens next door offering television for 976 cash only. CC's not accepted. First store goes out of business since they are charging 1000.

Why doesn't this ever happen?

Edited November 10, 201213 yr by mesquite

bobl, here's another scenario.

I (cc) pay 1000 for 976 television. You pay 1000 cash for 976 television. I get 30 daiy float and convenience.

That's exactly the same as 'scenario 1'. You've paid $24 to the cc company for your '30 day float and convenience'. I've paid cash to the store owner, who's made $24 extra profit. In both cases an extra $24 has been paid over and above the actual retail value of the device.

A new all cash store opens next door offering television for 976 cash only. CC's not accepted. First store goes out of business since they are charging 1000. Why doesn't this ever happen?

Well, I was talking about facts and figures - now you're introducing hypotheticals.

So, hypothetically

2 identical stores open next door to one another, one does cc only and one does cash only, cheaper.

Why doesn't the cc store go out of business? The answer is, it could - if everybody started using the cash store.

But it's a good example also. See, if you waited 30 days and bought from the cash store, you'd have got it for $976. You didn't, you bought it from the cc store for $1,000. So, you basically paid $24 extra to get it 30 days earlier than you otherwise would've. $24. Not 'free'.

Two separate issues really, that of putting in a ATM machine on premises and that of pointing out to customers that your use of a Credit Card is costing you 2% and harming mankind in general. Don’t expect sympathy on the later, but if having your own ATM machine causes more people to pay cash I wouldn’t expect that to ruffle any feathers. High end restaurants (which Duke’s is) usually take credit cards and don't tag on a surcharge for CC use, even in Thailand. For a little guy to try to make a cause out CC’s being a lousy deal is to piss against the wind. If I spend 1000 baht on a meal for two in Chiang Mai and the owner of the joint makes an issue about the 20 baht he is losing to a CC company I'll just think that he's greedy.

Edited November 10, 201213 yr by OriginalPoster

I think the issue is that he wants to install an ATM and stop accepting cards. Send people to the machine. As I said it is the customer's choice to eat there. My view is that some will not. I do not think more will because of it.

Well, I was talking about facts and figures - now you're introducing hypotheticals.

We are both talking about hypotheticals.

If I spend 1000 baht on a meal for two in Chiang Mai and the owner of the joint makes an issue about the 20 baht he is losing to a CC company I'll just think that he's greedy.

That's because you think it's 24 baht out of 1,000. It's not. It's 24 baht off his net profit.

Without knowing all the ins and outs of his margins -> gross profit ->overheads -> net profit, we don't know how much that is. Maybe 200 baht. so 24 baht is 12% of his take home money. Worrying about that is greedy?

Long story short, installing ATM etc is a complex solution for a simple problem. The simple solution is to simply adjust his menu prices.

If I spend 1000 baht on a meal for two in Chiang Mai and the owner of the joint makes an issue about the 20 baht he is losing to a CC company I'll just think that he's greedy.

That's because you think it's 24 baht out of 1,000. It's not. It's 24 baht off his net profit.

Without knowing all the ins and outs of his margins -> gross profit ->overheads -> net profit, we don't know how much that is. Maybe 200 baht. so 24 baht is 12% of his take home money. Worrying about that is greedy?

Long story short, installing ATM etc is a complex solution for a simple problem. The simple solution is to simply adjust his menu prices.

I'm getting a little tired of your sanctimonious preaching.

But finally you said something that I agree with. If Duke's upped their prices 5% across the board probably noone would notice, whereas going on a crusade over CC usage would only assure that people will notice. It's just a bad idea.

Edited November 10, 201213 yr by OriginalPoster

We are both talking about hypotheticals.

Ummm... no, this is simple arithmetic.

We're discussing the hidden costs of plastic - to the user, to the retailer, to people who pay cash. Those are easy to calculate. No hypothesis required.

A business operating a gross margin of ~25% (~35% markup) paying 2.4% transaction fees, has lost 9% of his gross profit. That's at least 9% of his net profit (assuming zero overheads gp=np) or 18% of his net (if half his gp goes to overheads).

If I spend 1000 baht on a meal for two in Chiang Mai and the owner of the joint makes an issue about the 20 baht he is losing to a CC company I'll just think that he's greedy.

That's because you think it's 24 baht out of 1,000. It's not. It's 24 baht off his net profit.

Without knowing all the ins and outs of his margins -> gross profit ->overheads -> net profit, we don't know how much that is. Maybe 200 baht. so 24 baht is 12% of his take home money. Worrying about that is greedy?

Long story short, installing ATM etc is a complex solution for a simple problem. The simple solution is to simply adjust his menu prices.

I'm getting a little tired of your sanctimonious preaching.

But finally you said something that I agree with. If Duke's upped their prices 5% across the board probably noone would notice, whereas going on a crusade over CC usage would only assure that people will notice. It's just a bad idea.

Duke's and any other restaurant can charge whatever they want, but they will be most successful charging whatever the market will bear. He wants to cut costs by eliminating ATM fees. He does not want to raise prices. If he raises prices, he will have fewer customers.

If raising prices is the answer, why not raise them 100% or even 1000%?

Edited November 10, 201213 yr by mesquite

With the amount of free advertising he is getting here he can cut prices.

carry on

Pay me 100 thousand baht and I'll get the job done for you ASAP boss man, let me know by PM...