Lessons In Being Gay In Thailand!

[Rickys]

Hi Guys,

I’ve just come back from Thailand and am feeling a lot better in myself, after my first initial posting (See Love or Lust)

Once again I met up with my friend X and we had a good time together. But I could still do with peoples help. I was beginning to think I understood the Thai way but just when you think you have it cracked, another shade of grey appears!

I would welcome anyone’s views on this and if any Thai’s can help me understand I would be most grateful. I guess I need some more “Thai Lessons” from you.

To set the scene I am 34 and my friend X is 29. We have known each other since last October when I went on holiday to Thailand. We meet through gaydar, had a good really good time, I fell for him big time etc etc. See (Love or Lust) He has told me he feels the same but I think his views is more of a close friendship, but friends who choose to have sex that is!! Which is OK and I accept.

Before anyone asks there is money involved. As he takes unpaid time off work to be with me, I think it is only fair to replace the salary he has lost.

Right here we go with my queries

Whilst I was in Thailand, and in a couple of email since, X indicated he feels he can talk to me about anything and feels very close to me. And the word “Love” was said many times and I think it was meant by both of us.

But when I was talking with him on the phone the other day I mentioned Valentines Day. (Is it more of big think in Europe and the US than it is in Thailand?) X told me whilst he likes romance when he see a big display of romance in public or in films it makes him feel embarrassed. Is this usual for Thai’s? This worried me slightly as I have sent him a Valentines Card, with a sloppy verse!

I am also in the process of learning Thai and tried a couple of Thai phrases out on him, one of which was romantic and seemed to be the wrong thing to say as this led to the above discussion.

I am very confused about this and I am hoping its just me misunderstanding.

On my most recent trip to Thailand I went with friends who are older than me, (both in their 40’s). When we all met at the airport he “waied” them but not me. I felt a bit put out by this and plucked up the courage to ask him why. He said it would be like him waiing his best friend, which I took as a sort of compliment. Is this right?

One thing I still don’t understand is Thai’s don’t say ‘thank you’ easily. Well the ones I have met don’t at least! Coming from the UK where we tend to say “Thank you” even if someone steps on your foot. I found it a little difficult when I didn’t even get a “thank you” when we went shopping or I paid for dinner. Is this usual?

I think we are both under no illusion that we will be seeing other people whilst we are apart. (I’m hopefully going back later on in the year) but we have an unwritten rule of not talking about it. And it seems to work. I guess what I don’t know doesn’t hurt me and visa versa.

I do sometimes feel like I am doing all the chasing, but I have tried what some have suggested and been silent for a couple of days and I soon get an SMS or an online message from him. I do find I can’t help myself sometimes and have sent a SMS before I realise it, but I know this is something I should try and curb as it makes me appear as a “clinger.”

I am hoping to maybe move out to Thailand in 6-7 years time, a lot can happen between then and now I know, but I am hoping me and X will still know each other and maybe make a go of things.

I do care for X very much and I constantly worry about him. I suppose my ultimate fear is that Mr Right (probably in the form of Brad Pitt) will turn up and sweep X off his feet and I will be quickly forgotten.

Looking forward to hearing your views and any similar experiences.

Edited February 17, 2006 by PeaceBlondie

[Ijustwannateach]

Rickey S,

To be honest it's hard to know what to say to you. On one hand, everything your guy tells you could be completely true and he could be completely above board. On the other hand, many of these things would be convenient cover for the usual gameplaying between locals and tourists. One of the ways to find out would be to move here, but kinda hard on you if he turns out to be one of the gameplayers and you've moved here for him.

Some points to consider:

1. "Unpaid" leave from work: I don't know of any real jobs from which Thais can easily take "unpaid" holidays for very long. While many higher level government jobs have "business days" and so forth, these are typically used for going to weddings, funerals, other family holidays, etc. rather than as "vacation." I don't think any extended period (i.e. over 3 days or more) would be acceptable without a major excuse (becoming a monk, etc.).

On the other hand, happily for some people many bar or restaurant-related jobs have very flexible terms of leaving. And those without jobs have the most flexi-time of all.

2. Gaydar: I've heard (and had) mixed results from Gaydar in Thailand, from people who met their life partners that way to people who were robbed at gunpoint by those they met from there. On the whole, I'd cautiously say more of the stories I know are negative than positive- but that mirrors the real dating world, doesn't it?

3. Romantic expression: some do, some don't. It seems your partner is tacitly one of the less sentimental types, though you say he is using the L-word. Perhaps you might have unknowingly used a sentence with adjectives appropriate for a woman, and this would have been odd at best? Most of the tourist manuals are written with a male tourist addressing a female local in mind (for some reason). It is true that outrageous public displays of affection are frowned on here between those of all sexes and persuasions.

4. If you are paying for dinners and you are doing all these nice things for him and, especially, you are older than he is then technically he should occasionally be wai-ing you (according to my understanding of Thai culture)- at least when he's seeing you off or when you return to Thailand. However, it could be that when he is hanging out around foreigners (as he must have frequently done) he adopts Western cultural patterns and feels strange about wai-ing them (and you), while it is an implicit obligation for him towards his older Thai friends/acquaintances. If I were you I wouldn't take it personally.

5. However, the thanking thing is not nice. Thanking people is important both in Thai culture and in Western culture. Someone who's stopped thanking people has started taking them for granted, typically, or has been spoiled by frequent purchases on his behalf- something for you to think about in terms of imagining his lifestyle.

6. If he knows you appreciate a message from time to time, it seems kind of insensitive for him not to send them. Once again, actions speak louder than words- balance these things against the talk of "love" you mention above.

7. Someone 29 years old in LOS is not typical Brad-Pitt fodder; in terms of the scene (which I would guess this fellow habituates) it's actually getting a bit over-the-hill in terms of tourist interest. Another thing to think about if his affections start to become unexpectedly more pressing.

Once again, he could be the perfect man. But, honestly, the situation doesn't sound that promising, and you'll have no way to find out without moving here or moving him there. If you're easily heartbroken, I'd start building that wall around your heart now.

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

Basicallly life is pretty simple here.

Don't spend too much time worrying about what you are dealing with since you are not really dealing with it at all yet.

Anyone that would over-generalize Thai people into a singular set of behaviours does you a great disservice.

Simply ... you are a tourist. You have met a friend. Your friend is not proffessing undieing committment to you. You didn't give us enough knowledge to work from to make any conjectures regarding the charachter of the guy involved and frankly it doesn't matter.

Enjoy your visits ... treat the people you meet with respect.

Abouts "wais" ... it is my experience that guys that date farang typically treat the guy they are dating with much more egalitarianism than is common in other social interactions in Thailand. So waiing your friends but not waiing you makes a bit of sense. If I am out with mtual friends and my friend joins the group he will wai the rest of the group and not me. No slight there. Same goes for being with Thai friends and one of thier BF's joins ... he'll wai the rest but not his friend.

Most of my friends that I spend any real time with in Thailand will often tell me they love me without the baggage that that carries back in the West.

I have no "cautionary notes" about anything you wrote other than to say don't spend too much time worrying about whay may or may not happen in 6-7 years time. Your friend or you could easily have been married off by then or whatever.

again ... enjoy your time here ... have clear limits on your own behavior and level of commitments (both financially and emotionally) ... and be an adult.

Good Luck

[dukkha]

One of the comforts coming terms with impermanence it releases you to enjoy 'being' cos it all changes and is passing...take the day, the minute and relish it my friend wherever you are and wthwhomever you are Dukkha

[Rickys]

Thanks for the advice so far guys.

I suppose I should be a bit more adult about it all as jdinasia suggested, but somehow I can’t seem to help myself going childlike.

To give you an example I sent 3 SMS last night and had no response this morning. I was naturally worried.

So I phoned him to make sure everything was OK. I got a bit of a frosty reception as I got him out the shower and he had 101 things to do for his work. He also asked the question “Did you want me to respond?” which I had asked him in the SMS.

I asked if everything was OK and he said yes of course and he would tell me if I had done anything wrong. I presume this has no hidden meaning?

It was a strange conversation compared to last time as he didn’t seem his usual self. Maybe he has a lot of things on his mind as I know he works hard. Either that or I am being too demanding of the friendship.

I am also nervous now that I have scared him off by being a bit too clingy and phoning & SMS all the time. If I suddenly stop will that will also send out the wrong message, aghhhh!!! Do I phone him on Valentines day or not?

He told me again I have done nothing wrong, so maybe I am just invading his private space, which I guess we all need at times.

As I keep asking him if I have done anything wrong maybe it annoys him. But how else am I going to know if I am doing anything wrong?

But then again if he can forgive his western BF, who he lives with, for hitting him surly me being a bit worried and sending him SMS’s is minor. Maybe I am smothering him a little and being too nice, if that’s possible! Maybe he likes the westerns who “treat him mean to keep him keen.”

X keeps telling me to be happy and not too serious. Which I think is sound advice, I guess Thai’s like happiness and live for the day., while us westerns like to wallow in woe and worry and complain.

If people do think I am being too smothering how do I remedy things without putting him off me and keeping him interested?

Now where did I put the phone number of that shrink!

[jdinasia]

Geeeze ... lighten up ...

Personal experience in Thailand would tell me that guys that are not very clingy probably think of you as a "gig" .. "Friends with priviledges" but c'mon ... how serious is someone gonna be about a tourist who "MAY come back this year" and hopes to move here in 6-7 years ...

Just enjoy your time with a friend ... send a Valentines day card or try to all ONCE ... whatever. Keep in touch via e-mail etc ... and don't be so needy you scare someone off :-)

[Steve2UK]

You were there and you know X first-hand; I wasn't and I don't. Still, reading your latest posts and re-reading your previous "Love or Lust" thread (and on the balance of probabilities), I think it's fair to suggest that the following probably sums up the situation:

You're (totally?) smitten with him whereas he quite likes you.

Maybe (who knows?) he quite likes one or more others; he certainly seems to feel OK continuing to live with the existing western BF - regardless of any arguments between them. If your relationship with X is going to go anywhere, it will be at his speed - not yours.

I have no idea whether X is "playing the field" or not - nor does it affect my instincts about your/his situation. As I said in my first post on your previous thread, it feels to me like you're pushing way too hard and too fast. In your position, I would have no way of telling where I stood with X right now - the situation is just too distorted and unbalanced to know. Maybe your relationship with X may get somewhere in the future or maybe not - but (IMO) it's much less likely if you keep pushing this hard. Incidentally, I don't think cultural differences are a major factor in any of this.............

Overall, I really think Jdinasia has got it right - read his posts carefully. "Lighten up" seems a tad harsh - but he's not wrong. Back off a bit (OK - back off a LOT) and slow down..........

I appreciate that it's tough on you. Good luck.

[Guest endure]

Even if X were to be totally smitten he'd react in the Thai way which is to be jai yen (cool hearted). His take on the situation will probably be that you're a long way away and there's no point in getting worked up about something he can't do anything about. If you keep returning to Thailand over the next few years and it's obvious that you still care about him he may begin to believe you're a 'prospect'. As jdinasia said elsewhere many Thais, having been let down by butterfly farang in the past, need to see some consistent commitment first. If you get too heavy you'll scare him off.

[Rickys]

Thanks guys,

As always your help in much appreciated. Its a hard thing to hear and to try and do but as suggested I will back off a little (or a lot). The last thing I do want to do is scare him off. I guess we take things at a Thai pace.

I just hope I havn't do too much scaring off already. I don't think I have but I guess we all learn by our mistakes.

I am hoping to show committment, plane ticket for October is already booked and I intend to visit every 6 months thereafter.

In our conversation today we did talk about when I come back in October and we spend some time together, and he said he was looking forward to it, even though it was 8 months away.

A couple of things that still make puzzle me.

Do Thai's appreciate us learning their language?

Also I know IJWT has responded to the 'Thank you' issue. I'd be interested to know what others think. Am I being taken for granted? or is it simply another Thai way I should adjust to.

[Steve2UK]

A couple of things that still make puzzle me.

Do Thai's appreciate us learning their language?

Also I know IJWT has responded to the 'Thank you' issue. I'd be interested to know what others think. Am I being taken for granted? or is it simply another Thai way I should adjust to.

On the whole, I'd say Thai are like any other national group - in that they're likely to appreciate when someone takes the trouble to learn their language (maybe even more so when someone makes the effort to learn about and understand their culture and ways). In my experience, don't expect a round of applause. I have found one downside about using even my limited Thai language: almost invariably, any new Thai guy I come into contact with takes a lot of convincing that I really don't have a Thai boyfriend (otherwise, how come my Thai is so good?). But, at least that's one problem you don't have..........

As to the "thank you" issue, I'd say it depends mainly on the circumstances and then also a bit on the guy. If you did something special, then I'd always expect a good Thai to say "thank you". But, it seems to me that you set paying for meals and shopping as the norm from the outset - so maybe it was never special? Who knows - maybe in this case, it's also X's way of maintaining a distance and not getting into an "obliged" situation? I imagine some others will see this as evidence of X just using you. As it happens, my instinct suggests otherwise. Either way, you'll do far better for yourself by trying to be more relaxed and worry less about things like this.

One further thought. While I hate generalisations, it does seem that many (most?) Thai are just not used to "deep" talk about their personal situation and will generally go out of their way to avoid it. Maybe X has already said to you something like "you think too much" or "don't think so much". If not, I'm betting that it won't be long before he does - it's very familiar in Thailand.

Edited February 11, 2006 by Steve2UK

[ChrisP]

Rickys

One other Thai phrase to consider they use is: "Don't think too much".

i.e. don't analyse everything to death, like we tend to do in the West.

Mai pen rai.. "What will be will be.."

And I agree with Steve2UK

ChrisP

[toptuan]

The "thank you" issue...

In 10 years of contact with Vietnamese, Thais, and Cambodians, I would say that SE Asians in general do not express verbal thanks as often as we do in the west. If they do, it's usually an accommodation to the westerner.

Rather, they take more delight in returning the favor--often at a much later time. The favor may be "in kind" or similar, but never way above or below the value of your original act of kindness. If the value is incongruous, it upsets the "balance of obligation."* They expect you to connect their return favor to your earlier act of kindness, but not to verbalize the connection. If you do that, it cheapens their act of kindness.

On the surface, it's their way of saying "thanks"; but on a subconscious level, it's their acting out of the ingrained Asian trait of *"maintaining the balance of obligation" which is even more pronounced in Japanese and Chinese cultures. As with many cultural traits, this has filtered down to SE Asian cultures over the millenia. In conversation, they might even deny this as a motivation; but believe me, it's entrenched.

So, when I treat an Asian friend to a lavish dinner, and I don't even get a hint of thanks, I just bide my time; especially if I see they obviously enjoyed themselves. I just know there's another a lavish dinner down the road--and that will be his show of appreciation.

[jdinasia]

A side note on Thai's and them liking us to learn the language....

My experience would suggest that the good loving and trusting guys really DO like us to learn.(This presumes you are, in fact, trustworthy) The guys that need their BF to be dependant however seem to encourage thier partners not to bother. Dependancy in tese situations tend to be a bit 2-way ... financial support for life maintenance in the LOS...

(And if you happen to be at DJ station or the like ... some of the guys really resent it when they figure out you understand what they are saying while they gossip about the farang around them!! ;-)

My friend is often confounded that I do understand spokenn Thai in almost any situation where I "get the topic". However ... even after classes and 2 years of living here constantly I still have trouble thinking in Thai well enough to communicate quickly in unfamiliar situations. ((Yes I have even resorted to writing in Thai to make myself clear when upcountry!))

[dukkha]

The main reason that I met Sam was because he heard me speaking thai and thus was comfortable in approaching me. We speak thai daily. I dont profess, fluent and impeccable thai but I do make the effort and of course it has been our means of communication from the time we met..I do have a gift for languages but this one scared me shitless ( oops ) Once I became more confident so did the level of my thai..It has made living here so much the more richer and heaps more laughs which is endemic in thai culture..

[Rickys]

I feel quite ashamed as I thought I knew culture Thai quite well. Obviously not!

And its good drawing on your experiences.

I am ashmed to say X has told me a couple of times when we have been talking "Don't think too much" and "Don't worry" but both were said with a smile and hug. Until I had read your responses I didn't fully appreciate what they really meant.

I'm also grateful for the advice about "Thank you" This has stopped me feeling paranoid and hopefully will stop me putting my foot in it in the future.

I know I may get a slap from some of you for asking this, but what do I do in terms of when I next communuicate with X? (This will probably be an email message or gaydar message later on this week)

Do I try and explain myself and say sorry for worrying too much or

do I just forget about it and carry on with normal conversation such as work, TV and happy things etc.

I am guessing from what people have put the second option of forgetting about it and carrying on is going to be the best. (Without being too lovey dovey and needy that is).

If I am reading correctly what people have put that should also make X more comfortable.

[Steve2UK]

I feel quite ashamed as I thought I knew culture Thai quite well. Obviously not!

And its good drawing on your experiences.

I am ashmed to say X has told me a couple of times when we have been talking "Don't think too much" and "Don't worry" but both were said with a smile and hug. Until I had read your responses I didn't fully appreciate what they really meant.

I'm also grateful for the advice about "Thank you" This has stopped me feeling paranoid and hopefully will stop me putting my foot in it in the future.

I know I may get a slap from some of you for asking this, but what do I do in terms of when I next communuicate with X? (This will probably be an email message or gaydar message later on this week)

Do I try and explain myself and say sorry for worrying too much or

do I just forget about it and carry on with normal conversation such as work, TV and happy things etc.

I am guessing from what people have put the second option of forgetting about it and carrying on is going to be the best. (Without being too lovey dovey and needy that is).

If I am reading correctly what people have put that should also make X more comfortable.

Don't feel ashamed - Thai culture can be like an Everest . All credit to you for trying to understand and learn more - many don't take the trouble.

As you know, I think you started off on the wrong foot. Maybe a correction now will ultimately improve things........... and maybe not. Time will tell.

My answer to your question is (as you seem to be expecting) the second option. Good to keep your contact relatively neutral (i.e. more about general things and much less about your/his relationship); even better to keep it regular so that you're thereby demonstrating a continuing (i.e. dependable) interest. If your liaison with X has the scope to go anywhere, that can only help. Incidentally, my experience is that most Thai are even less likely to say "sorry" than say "thank you" - back to the obligation point again; if anything they're more likely to make it up to you in some discreet way later.

If you haven't already, get into the habit of starting your messages with "Hi/hello - how are you?" and then go on to tell him your latest news. Not only is this a standard polite Thai formula but also over time, as and when he starts to feel more comfortable, his responses may start to include the occasional passing reference to some personal factors of his own. You can respond to those in turn - but do it with a light touch i.e. showing interest but not risking what looks like you might be intruding on his personal space. Most Thai tend to concentrate on the positive while playing down and even ignoring the negative - e.g. "Well, I've been having a bit of a problem with XYZ (job, health, whatever) but I think it is OK now/will be OK soon...........". Even that much is probably more than many Thai seem to be ready to reveal.

Final recommendation: do a search on the main forum and maybe Google for references to "face" (as in losing/saving it). The more you understand about it, the better you're likely to handle any kind of relationship with any Thai.

[toptuan]

Steve2's comments are right on target IMO.

Once, a serious problem developed between myself and a very good Vietnamese friend. He had lied to me over a serious matter, and I had caught him red-handed at it. When he had to face it, I demanded a verbal apology. He acknowledged his lying, but resisted an apology. I was furious at his refusal to say the two simple words "I'm sorry," and kept pressing him for it.

Instead, after a long sigh, he explained to me that for him to verbalize "I'm sorry" would be a low-value and even insincere way of showing contriteness after an offense. He said that a later act of kindness would be the best way for him to show his desire to "make it up" to me. He concluded by saying essentially, "Actions speak louder than words." Couldn't argue with it.

True to his word, his later forthright honesty (as best as I could determine) and sweet acts of kindness definitely left a more genuine taste in my mouth which helped cleanse our mutual history of the bad incident.

[Rickys]

Hi Guys,

Just thought I would give you quick update.

Things appear to be getting back to normal now with X. Thank you all for your advice and the home truths, which I needed to hear.

Strangely enough X was the first one to send me a sms message not the other way round! And he asked me to call him on Valentines day! Which I did of course!

As suggested I am proceeding with "Cool Heart" but most importantly with a smile and fun

Lets just hope I don't put my foot in it again between now and later on in the year. I agree with Steve it is like climbing Everest at times

Cheers guys

[PeaceBlondie]

ChrisP may not be available to moderate, and I was without cable for about four days, including the days I was seeing if I had a life-threatening infection, okay?

Actually, when I quickly glanced at the thread after it got off track, I thought you guys were handling it pretty easily.

My current connection is slower than a water buffalo walking down the freeway, so give me a few minutes to clear ALL the off-topic diversion.

But whatzhizname, who isn't really so sensitive, did have a point: we should consider that some folks read a post based on its title, not its location.

[fatter than harry]

Um, I think the mods do have private lives.... give it 24 hours or so.

IMO that's not good enough. Moderating on, at least 2 forums that I know of, must be time consuming. If you want to do the job, do it properly. If that was the case then the flamers would have been bannned long ago but some are still here going on and on and on and on.

It is time consuming. There isn't a manual. We do it for the free speedos. Talking of flammers going on and on and on....

[PeaceBlondie]

Hey, where's my free speedo? I just spent over 75 minutes cleaning this up. A free speedo after how many hours?

[fatter than harry]

Your free speedos have been mailed to you, check your inbox.

Seriously, there are many mods on TV, but only 2 dedicated gay forum mods. Granted there are also mods that are supposed to float around checking all the sub forums, but a lot of us are a little intimidated to do any modding in here as we don't want to offend sensibilities we know little about, I'm not wishing to sound condescending to you guys, it runs exactly the same for the ladies forum, the buddhist forum, helll even the IT forum.

If there's an obvious nutter posting retarded rubbish in here we'll sort it out, otherwise we'll leave it for PB or Chris. I think you should be a bit more forgiving Dumpster.

[DUMPSTER]

Ok I apologise, but moderating on at least 2 forums must slow down the moderating done here. Where are your priorites?

fth if your calling me a flamer ban me

Edited February 17, 2006 by DUMPSTER

[cdnvic]

At the bottom of every post you'll see a button marked "report". Use it and it broadcasts a message to most mods online, alerting them to the problem posts.

cv

[PeaceBlondie]

"Lessons on Being Gay in Thailand" - that's the improved title of this thread. Again, a suggestion: when you start a thread, try to put something about "Gay" in the topic, because some straight, sensible posters don't look in the column to see what sub-forum it's in.

Thanks to the fellow moderators for helping out. Meanwhile, I still have water buffalo ADSL, courtesy of the amoebas and paramecia at TOT.

Now, where were we?

[ChrisP]

ChrisP is back too... after a lot of flying and landing in BKK...!

(How come the s.h.i.t. hits the fan on the day I take off..??!)

And, btw, I only moderate on ONE Forum - this one. We're all allowed a day or two break...!

Thanks PB for the water-buffalo clean-up.

Cheers

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

Welcome back, cutie!

[ProThaiExpat]

Rickys: If you cannot be yourself this early in the relationship, you have nothing but charade in your future with this guy.

Be yourself and give your Thai an opportunity to see you as you are. If your too "this" or "that" then so be it. The sooner he learns who you are and acting normally, the sooner he will know if he likes it or not.

While my experience with Thais before meeting my LTR of almost five years was limited, I have learned that the "word" among most gay Thais who like falang is that many of them are undependable. Especially those who are here only for vacations.

My advice is to be consistent and be yourself so your Thai can depend on you being what you are. You can't control if he will like you or not, but at least he will be making his judgement based on who you really are, not on what your posturing yourself to be based on your guess on what he wants.

My experience with my Thai has taught me that the more dependable I am and the more he can count on me to be that way, the farther I separate myself from the "undesireable" falang, the "buterfilies".

My Thai worked in Reception for a five star hotel for a number of years and refused innumerable dates or invitations from falang, the reason being they were transients and unable to offer the consistency of a falang living in Thailand. My impending arrival for long stay in Thailand got me to first base with him, not through my intention but through happenstance.

Fortunately, I acted myself, even with all my "warts" and he merely laughed them off as in his mind my heart, my consistence, my kindness and caring were what was important to him, not "western" notions of desireability.

[jdinasia]

I miss Steve2UK ... and wonder if Rickys is still in contact with X ....

(this thread could use some cleaning up still

[Guest endure]

I miss Steve2UK ... and wonder if Rickys is still in contact with X ....

Isn't Steve2UK in the process of moving to the LoS?