Define Native Speaker

[teacherofwoe]

I have read a post which says that South Africans are not NES now, and they have to take an English proficiency test if they wish to teach. How does the MOE define a NES? There is a teacher I know who was born in a non-English speaking country in Asia who then grew up in a non-English speaking country in Europe which gave him his first language. Then, he learned the language of his birth country. He finally moved to the U.S. as an adult where he learned English as his third language. He holds a U.S. passport and is working in the position of NES teacher. His accent is not NES, he speaks to his students in pigeon English, his spelling is awful and his grammar is even worse. If he had to take an English proficiency test, I think he would probably fail. Does holding a U.S. passport define him as a NES or has he got his teaching position under false pretenses?

[aidenai]

The only rules set by an organisation of the Ministry of Education are the rules set by The Teachers' Council of Thailand and are below. However, I do think they stem from the Office of the Civil Service Commission.

4. TOEIC certified score report (except those who come from a native-English speaking countries: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Ireland, The United States of America, Commonwealth of Australia, New Zealand and Canada) or passing score on the other foreign language proficiency test.

Copy of a certified score report of the English Language Proficiency Test. All non native English-speaking applicants are required to take an English language proficiency test, such as TOEIC, TOEFL or IELTS and is still within its validity period as indicated in the Statement of Results (the results are valid for two years).

Except those who come from The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Ireland, The United States of America, Commonwealth of Australia, New Zealand and Canada).

I'm not aware of any further specifications of the rules that prevent loopholes as you described.

[Scott]

Holding a US passport would probably do the trick. There is still a responsibility for schools to interview candidates and chose those that are able to teach.

[culicine]

I think everyone's definition might vary - I would say it is those people who use engish in their daily life and use it with their countrymen on a regular basis - as you can see this would exclude some groups such as Philipinos who 95% of the time use Tagalog in the staffroom. Then we have Thai-Americans who were raised in the US and speak fluent english - they are native speakers. Some may be bilingual but generally their Thai skill is weaker.

[sirchai]

I think the definition usually means " born and raised" in an English speaking country. All the Mexicans, Colombians etc..in the States holding an American passport are not Native English speakers, as English is their second or third language.

I wouldn't consider a Turk holding a German passport a Native German speaker.

What about Jamaican English? Evryding Airee maaan?

Edited November 21, 2012 by sirchai

[Scott]

I think that what we think is of little importance. If the TCT and the MOE decide the passport is the determining factor, then that's what it will be.

I've met a Canadian who was from the French speaking part of Canada and he definitely was not a native speaker of English, but he was considered as such by the relevant gov't authorities.

[yourauntbob]

The people making these rules are rather ignorant. I don't mean that in an insulting manner, its just they genuinely don't understand what they are talking about. There have been numerous people working in schools I have worked that were considered NES simply because of their passport. The same is true in reverse, but because the schools obviously don't have the capability to judge English abilities they need to rely on generalizations such as which country your from.

[SlyAnimal]

NES = Someone who's original / first language was English.

However, in Thailand, a NES is generally classified as someone who holds a passport from the UK / USA / Canada / Australia / NZ / Ireland. I can only assume that this is to make it easier for schools etc who don't know the difference between a native and non native speaker, since anyone raised/schooled in any of these countries will English, and for foreigners who gain citizenship via naturalisation, they need to pass some form of English language test (At least I assume so anyway, as NZ's citizenship regulations are usually more lax than the other countries, and I believe we require a good IELTS or similar test score).

From what I understand South Africans were previously included in this list, but they've removed them.

I can only assume that this is because they checked the 2011 census results:

The South African National Census of 2011 found a total of 4,892,623 speakers of English as a first language, making up 9.6% of the national population (Wikipedia - South African English page).

If I read the same page, and saw that less than 10% of South Africans were native English speakers, I would also likely assume that most South Africans aren't native English speakers lol (Even though every South African I've met spoke excellent English, albeit usually while living in NZ, although I knew some of the South Africans would have felt more comfortable speaking Afrikans, as English wasn't their "native" language.). I can only assume that the Thai education office has taken the same view lol.

[aussiebebe]

I have a South African friend who had to take an English test in order to get the teachers licence - it's quite unfair as English is her mother tongue and she found the test to contain embarrassing errors. Sorry to any South Africans I offend by writing this but Thailand is a good deal safer than many parts of South Africa and the test is a small price to pay for wanting to work here.

[Newguy70]

I have a South African friend.... it's quite unfair as English is her mother tongue...

Put three South Africans in close proximity, and tell me if you hear English. I think not.......

English is not the 1st language of South Africa. I have a friend from South Africa, and they only use the phrase "English is our first language" to land teaching jobs here in Thailand...

I have met plenty in Thailand, as they are coming over by the plane loads. Most of them early to mid twenties as they are upset by the way things are going in South Africa, and they can earn a better wage here...

Side note: I could care less, if you are NES or not. As long as you are trying to help the kids ...

[chonabot]

I have a South African friend.... it's quite unfair as English is her mother tongue...

Put three South Africans in close proximity, and tell me if you hear English. I think not.......

English is not the 1st language of South Africa. I have a friend from South Africa, and they only use the phrase "English is our first language" to land teaching jobs here in Thailand...

I have met plenty in Thailand, as they are coming over by the plane loads. Most of them early to mid twenties as they are upset by the way things are going in South Africa, and they can earn a better wage here...

Side note: I could care less, if you are NES or not. As long as you are trying to help the kids ...

I lived in South Africa for 8 years - English is the first language.

Afrikaans is used plus Zulu/Sotho and a host of ethnic languages.

But English is the first language..unless you're a rocspider

ps that's not a racist term - ask any South African

pps I was a rooeineck

Edited November 24, 2012 by chonabot

[Newguy70]

I find your comment quite interesting as all the 20 something's I have spoken to have said "Afrikaans", but what do I know. I have not had the chance to stop over, but hope to get around to it.

But, I can say that I would not consider any that I have met to date a NES!

This could also be said for many in the U.S.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Newguy70

[chonabot]

It depends what part of SA they are from, certainly the ones from the Orange Free state and parts of Transvaal would use Afrikaans.

Cape and Natal are less inclined to and use English as a first language at school and in work - the 3rd/4th generation South Africans from Dutch origin prefer to speak Afrikaans and the schools they went to would use it over English.

But overall the first language is English - and they realise that Afrikaans has little value as a first/international language.

[Rhys]

Always a politically motivated debate....Native speaker... what does it mean... it all depends where and with who and who you know...

[uptheos]

There is only English.

Of course there are variations, American, Australian, Canadian etc.

But there is only English.

[joorakee]

4. TOEIC certified score report (...) or passing score on the other foreign language proficiency test.

Copy of a certified score report of the English Language Proficiency Test. All non native English-speaking applicants are required to take an English language proficiency test, such as TOEIC, TOEFL or IELTS and is still within its validity period as indicated in the Statement of Results (the results are valid for two years).

And what about CAE or CPE? Does anyone happen to know? Thanks in advance for any info.

[Rhys]

1. Listen momie, the man speaks English with a funny accent....it means he can speak more than one language...
   

[joorakee]

1. Listen momie, the man speaks English with a funny accent....it means he can speak more than one language...
   

Well, from the learner's point of view, it would probably be best if his kruu or ajaan was both a qualified teacher and a native speaker of the language. But, on the other hand, you can't accuse all non-native speakers teaching/willing to teach English, even those whose pronunciation is - to put it mildly - far from perfect, (of being unfair? committing a scam?), who weren't given an opportunity to teach their mother tongue (or was it their fault that they weren't born in an English-speaking country?).

I think that the problem is that all farangs thinking of staying for a longer time in Thailand hear and read everywhere: "You can always teach English", "Becoming an English teacher is the easiest way to obtain a work permit and an appropriate visa", etc. Foreigners (including NES!) should be more aware that they can work for "normal" companies, as well (with some restrictions), and that in many cases it will be more enjoyable and lucrative, especially if they have no vocation for teaching.

Even in Japan, where I spent several years and where the salaries are higher, white foreigners are often asked to teach English, regardless of their origin, so it's no wonder that for many working in Asia equals (")teaching(") (")English(").

[Hedghog]

A South African person isn't a native English speaker,the native tongue could be,Africanse, Dutch, German, or native African language,of which there are many.

[chonabot]

A South African person isn't a native English speaker,the native tongue could be,Africanse, Dutch, German, or native African language,of which there are many.

On the contrary - there are at least 2 million 'South Africans' who moved there in the 1970/80's from the UK.

I was one of them - they still speak English at home and at school for all subjects except Afrikaans.

If you want correct information speak to someone who has actually been brought up there

[thaicbr]

A South African person isn't a native English speaker,the native tongue could be,Africanse, Dutch, German, or native African language,of which there are many.

On the contrary - there are at least 2 million 'South Africans' who moved there in the 1970/80's from the UK.

I was one of them - they still speak English at home and at school for all subjects except Afrikaans.

If you want correct information speak to someone who has actually been brought up there

So in fact they are native English speaker's from the UK currently residing in South Africa. Probably still on UK passports.

But the South Africans born and brought up in SA tend to all have an Africans accent. Personally I don't see a problem with accents as long as they are not strong.

sent from my Q6

[chonabot]

A South African person isn't a native English speaker,the native tongue could be,Africanse, Dutch, German, or native African language,of which there are many.

On the contrary - there are at least 2 million 'South Africans' who moved there in the 1970/80's from the UK.

I was one of them - they still speak English at home and at school for all subjects except Afrikaans.

If you want correct information speak to someone who has actually been brought up there

So in fact they are native English speaker's from the UK currently residing in South Africa. Probably still on UK passports.

But the South Africans born and brought up in SA tend to all have an Africans accent. Personally I don't see a problem with accents as long as they are not strong.

sent from my Q6

After 10 years you are supposed to become a South African citizen , and the children born there thereafter will be citizens.

We left in 1979 when the troubles kicked off, but there are still hundreds of Schools that teach all subjects in English.

After 2 or 3 years living there it's normal for a British born child to develop the South African accent, had loads of issues when we returned to Bristol.....an even worse accent IMO

Edited December 23, 2012 by chonabot