Seductive Dangers Of A Coup Mentality: Thailand

[JurgenG]

If the current government is what he claims, then surely the people would realise this? We've already seen what the Democrats are capable of when in power, and it was downright disappointing. I say let the Thais learn from their mistakes... if they are indeed capable of learning and not simply following/obeying orders.

The problem is that the Dems are as beholden to business interest as PTP. They have their backers just like all sides do, pretty much everyone knows who they are, and this makes the Dems powerless to change the status quo. We all know there are very long term problems in the agribusiness markets and these markets feed directly into the problems faced by the poor. Then tack on things like the protection afforded certain industries, and it means that Somchai average is not getting a fair shake of the stick because there are monopolies or oligopolies everywhere.

The problem is, if Abhsit was to stand up and say, we the Democrats are going to alter the system attached to this or that, or increase competition here or there, or reform the way things are done about this or that to insure and make it the understanding that the benefit to the country, is the benefit to the people, not tilted in favour of businesses, he would be demonised as much as Thaksin is.

I am not saying that he has to parrot Thaksin, but for example, in many countries it is illegal to act as a middle man for agricultural products or the government acts as part of the purchasing in the market to provide some yearly stability, but also to keep the market honest and competitive. What is the point in the CAT in telecoms? Why can't they privatize the trains and get them improved? Why can't they genuinely create a competitive market in telecoms by opening it up more? Why are banks still able to charge to inter provincial transfers? On a political level, why is he continuing to allow an accused murderer in his own party to have parliamentary immunity. Why is there a two to three speed medical system with civil servants getting better treatment than Somchai average? The list of things to reform is absolutely endless.

He could blow PTP out of the water if he had a radical plan to reform the business markets in Thailand to the benefit of the consumer, but he is hamstrung by being beholden to his backers. So, Thaksin comes along and is allowed to mess up the markets with absolute impunity because Abhisit knows he is largely unable to change anything. Abhisit can win the minds of the people, but he has to realise that to do it, he has to have the balls to really shake things up for the benefit of the people, and not maintain the status quo.

I globally agree with your analysis.

The main problem of Thailand is not Thaksin, it's the absence of a credible opposition. It's basically true that the democrats have an execrable leader because any real leader would suffer the same fate as Thaksin.

The only solution for democracy in Thailand is not to eliminate Thaksin but to have two Thaksin who keep each other in check. That's the way democracy works. Lets get rid of this doormat at the head of the democrats and find a real leader. And send the old guard to the retirement home where they belong.

It's kind of weird to think that eliminating Thaksin is obviously not the solution, and in the same time eliminating Thaksin will solve the problem too.

Who is talking about eliminating Thaksin ? Thaksin is a someone who gets things done and Thailand needs leaders like him.

Here the emphasize should be on "leaderS" with an "S" at the end. We need more strong people like this, especially in the opposition, so they will keep each other in check and limit each other excesses, like in other modern democracies.

The idea of having a "council of elders", like some advocates, can only works in a stable world, where one can expect the world to be same when he dies than when he was born. In a fast changing world like we're having today, we need strong younger leaders and the only way to have them in check is to have more than one and to have them competing agains each others.

[ridkun]

The problem is that the Dems are as beholden to business interest as PTP. They have their backers just like all sides do, pretty much everyone knows who they are, and this makes the Dems powerless to change the status quo. We all know there are very long term problems in the agribusiness markets and these markets feed directly into the problems faced by the poor. Then tack on things like the protection afforded certain industries, and it means that Somchai average is not getting a fair shake of the stick because there are monopolies or oligopolies everywhere.

The problem is, if Abhsit was to stand up and say, we the Democrats are going to alter the system attached to this or that, or increase competition here or there, or reform the way things are done about this or that to insure and make it the understanding that the benefit to the country, is the benefit to the people, not tilted in favour of businesses, he would be demonised as much as Thaksin is.

I am not saying that he has to parrot Thaksin, but for example, in many countries it is illegal to act as a middle man for agricultural products or the government acts as part of the purchasing in the market to provide some yearly stability, but also to keep the market honest and competitive. What is the point in the CAT in telecoms? Why can't they privatize the trains and get them improved? Why can't they genuinely create a competitive market in telecoms by opening it up more? Why are banks still able to charge to inter provincial transfers? On a political level, why is he continuing to allow an accused murderer in his own party to have parliamentary immunity. Why is there a two to three speed medical system with civil servants getting better treatment than Somchai average? The list of things to reform is absolutely endless.

He could blow PTP out of the water if he had a radical plan to reform the business markets in Thailand to the benefit of the consumer, but he is hamstrung by being beholden to his backers. So, Thaksin comes along and is allowed to mess up the markets with absolute impunity because Abhisit knows he is largely unable to change anything. Abhisit can win the minds of the people, but he has to realise that to do it, he has to have the balls to really shake things up for the benefit of the people, and not maintain the status quo.

I globally agree with your analysis.

The main problem of Thailand is not Thaksin, it's the absence of a credible opposition. It's basically true that the democrats have an execrable leader because any real leader would suffer the same fate as Thaksin.

The only solution for democracy in Thailand is not to eliminate Thaksin but to have two Thaksin who keep each other in check. That's the way democracy works. Lets get rid of this doormat at the head of the democrats and find a real leader. And send the old guard to the retirement home where they belong.

It's kind of weird to think that eliminating Thaksin is obviously not the solution, and in the same time eliminating Thaksin will solve the problem too.

Who is talking about eliminating Thaksin ? Thaksin is a someone who gets things done and Thailand needs leaders like him.

Here the emphasize should be on "leaderS" with an "S" at the end. We need more strong people like this, especially in the opposition, so they will keep each other in check and limit each other excesses, like in other modern democracies.

The idea of having a "council of elders", like some advocates, can only works in a stable world, where one can expect the world to be same when he dies than when he was born. In a fast changing world like we're having today, we need strong younger leaders and the only way to have them in check is to have more than one and to have them competing agains each others.

Well, please excuse my English. It was only my thought. I should put 'for me' somewhere in my earlier post. I actually totally agree with you for long term solution at least.

[DocN]

OzMick says:

"Admitting you have a problem is the first step."

Back to Sesame Street- you seem to have a problem with words beginning with the letter "S"...like sarcasm, socialism, self- awareness....

[Padoek]

Hold on a minute! Something’s wrong here! I voted for the Yingluck Govt not the Thaksin government. Or has there been a silent coup that nobody knows about?

[Hugo6]

If military coups are good, then the 18 "successful" coups over the past eight decades should have made Thailand an uber-moral and squeaky clean society by now.

recipe says you need 19 coups to achieve an uber-moral squeaky clean society.

[jonclark]

Round up all corrupt politicians and officals (civil servants, police, military etc) regardless of political affiliation, put them in a big field and drop a few bombs on them...

Who ever is left, round them up and start a coalition government... or if there isnte nough politicians left, re-instate full Monacy rule.

Wow...but u could be right ...

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

those monarchs are the main problem

Be careful what you say - you never know whose watching and how they will interpret your comments.

Edited November 21, 2012 by jonclark

[Hugo6]

Arguably a coup is not the answer however, when an 'elected' Govt (notwithstanding vote fraud and vote buying), is controlling the purse strings, openly corrupt in both scamming the populace (a majority of their voters who lack the intelligence to even see what they are doing) and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid, what pray tell are the options?

The present Thaksin government (it's certainly not the Yingluck Govt) is grossly incompetent, a fraud controlled by an exiled criminal, and stripping the fiscal reserves of Thailand (albeit 'democratically' elected - what a joke). The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI. NACC et al simply means they are thumbing their collective noses at all of us. Call for another election? Hardly an option.

Sadly, political conflict in Thailand is and has been dragging the country down since the second world war. Even the word 'government' in Thailand is offensive as the 'elected' government simply do not know how to govern. I can't see an option and a coup this time may well be very bloody. What other answers are there? I doubt even royal intervention and guidance at this point will stop the corruption or stagnation of Thailand under its present regime due to its aging patriach. How sad for Thailand to be going down this path troubled times or simply on a path to self destruction.

Arguably a coup is not the answer however, ... what pray tell are the options?

you really want a coup don't you?

where you are from, is this the normal way it works? Are you from a western democracy and spouting this trash or from a middle east dictatorship with sham elections and just telling us how they would do it?

If you really want to argue that a coup is the answer, then you've got granola for brains.

[metisdead]

No matter how veiled the insinuations are, do not go there:

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation, comments and discussion of either a political or personal nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

From this point on, anymore veiled insinuations/speculations, suspensions will be issued. A repeat offender of this rule has had his account closed today.

[OzMick]

you really want a coup don't you?

where you are from, is this the normal way it works? Are you from a western democracy and spouting this trash or from a middle east dictatorship with sham elections and just telling us how they would do it?

If you really want to argue that a coup is the answer, then you've got granola for brains.

Are you from a western democracy where 25% of MPs in the government are selected by a fugitive criminal, where government policies are enacted despite massive conflicts of interest and not even a declaration of conflict, without any form of RICO act and where the premier investigative body ignores crimes on instructions of the incumbents, where government positions are filled as nepotism or political favours without any pretence of competency, where people facing serious criminal charges are made MPs to avoid prosecution?

If so welcome to Thailand, it'll be just like home.

[yoshiwara]

Who is talking about eliminating Thaksin ? Thaksin is a someone who gets things done and Thailand needs leaders like him.

Here the emphasize should be on "leaderS" with an "S" at the end. We need more strong people like this, especially in the opposition, so they will keep each other in check and limit each other excesses, like in other modern democracies.

The idea of having a "council of elders", like some advocates, can only works in a stable world, where one can expect the world to be same when he dies than when he was born. In a fast changing world like we're having today, we need strong younger leaders and the only way to have them in check is to have more than one and to have them competing agains each others.

When someone is lauded for being 'strong' as a thing in itself, I see redshirts turning brown.

Edited November 21, 2012 by yoshiwara

[philw]

you really want a coup don't you?

where you are from, is this the normal way it works? Are you from a western democracy and spouting this trash or from a middle east dictatorship with sham elections and just telling us how they would do it?

If you really want to argue that a coup is the answer, then you've got granola for brains.

Are you from a western democracy where 25% of MPs in the government are selected by a fugitive criminal, where government policies are enacted despite massive conflicts of interest and not even a declaration of conflict, without any form of RICO act and where the premier investigative body ignores crimes on instructions of the incumbents, where government positions are filled as nepotism or political favours without any pretence of competency, where people facing serious criminal charges are made MPs to avoid prosecution?

If so welcome to Thailand, it'll be just like home.

You must be seriously unhappy here.

This is Thailand, you know, S.E Asia, close to China and Korea and Burma, where there is much of a muchness............

[OzMick]

Who is talking about eliminating Thaksin ? Thaksin is a someone who gets things done and Thailand needs leaders like him.

Here the emphasize should be on "leaderS" with an "S" at the end. We need more strong people like this, especially in the opposition, so they will keep each other in check and limit each other excesses, like in other modern democracies.

The idea of having a "council of elders", like some advocates, can only works in a stable world, where one can expect the world to be same when he dies than when he was born. In a fast changing world like we're having today, we need strong younger leaders and the only way to have them in check is to have more than one and to have them competing agains each others.

Thaksin gets things done. Mussolini got the trains to run on time.

Something to look forward to, hopefully without the other benefits IL Duce brought Italy.

[OzMick]

you really want a coup don't you?

where you are from, is this the normal way it works? Are you from a western democracy and spouting this trash or from a middle east dictatorship with sham elections and just telling us how they would do it?

If you really want to argue that a coup is the answer, then you've got granola for brains.

Are you from a western democracy where 25% of MPs in the government are selected by a fugitive criminal, where government policies are enacted despite massive conflicts of interest and not even a declaration of conflict, without any form of RICO act and where the premier investigative body ignores crimes on instructions of the incumbents, where government positions are filled as nepotism or political favours without any pretence of competency, where people facing serious criminal charges are made MPs to avoid prosecution?

If so welcome to Thailand, it'll be just like home.

You must be seriously unhappy here.

This is Thailand, you know, S.E Asia, close to China and Korea and Burma, where there is much of a muchness............

Thank you for your concern, I am quite happy here. But I have no delusion that this is Utopia.

Now do you have any criticism of my points, or only another personal sneer?

Edited November 21, 2012 by OzMick

[chadintheusa]

It is ridiculous to think that a military government or an appointed government would be any less corrupt than the current regime. All politicians are looking for their cut. It's all smoke and mirrors anyway since you can't discuss the real issues anyway.

[nurofiend]

Arguably a coup is not the answer however, when an 'elected' Govt (notwithstanding vote fraud and vote buying), is controlling the purse strings, openly corrupt in both scamming the populace (a majority of their voters who lack the intelligence to even see what they are doing) and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid, what pray tell are the options?

The present Thaksin government (it's certainly not the Yingluck Govt) is grossly incompetent, a (democratically elected) fraud, being controlled by an exiled criminal, and stripping the fiscal reserves of Thailand. The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI. NACC et al simply means they are thumbing their collective noses at all of us. Call for another election? Hardly an option. Sadly, political conflict in Thailand is and has been dragging the country down since the second world war. Even the word 'government' in Thailand is offensive as they simply do not know how to govern. I can't see an option and a coup this time may well be very bloody. What other answers are there?

"Call for another election? Hardly an option."

why?

"openly corrupt in both scamming the populace - and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid"

how?

"The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI"

is there something wrong with a government who has control over their police, or do you prefer a government who has no control over their army?

and do you think when the dems were in charge, were they controlling the DSI?

I wasn't even going to respond to this - however, in the interests of all, fortunately most of the TV bloggers have the intelligence to realise every question here is answered in the post. Sadly - you don't see it.

no, sadly i don't see it because every question wasn't answered in your post. evidently you just can't answer them so you just cop out and avoid while trying to insult me at the same time.

but i agree, you shouldn't have responded at all if you can't answer my questions.

[Hugo6]

you really want a coup don't you?

where you are from, is this the normal way it works? Are you from a western democracy and spouting this trash or from a middle east dictatorship with sham elections and just telling us how they would do it?

If you really want to argue that a coup is the answer, then you've got granola for brains.

Are you from a western democracy where 25% of MPs in the government are selected by a fugitive criminal, where government policies are enacted despite massive conflicts of interest and not even a declaration of conflict, without any form of RICO act and where the premier investigative body ignores crimes on instructions of the incumbents, where government positions are filled as nepotism or political favours without any pretence of competency, where people facing serious criminal charges are made MPs to avoid prosecution?

If so welcome to Thailand, it'll be just like home.

wow, see other thread.

and no, i'm from a country - the Greatest Democracy on Earth - where one party gerrymanders districts so they can maintain a majority in the house while losing the popular vote by a wide margin, and where all elections are run by the states and that then done by the party in power in the state such that the previously mentioned party can pass election reform laws to disenfranchise large segments of the population who are likely to not vote for them as well as where billionaires can pick a candidate like a jockey for a horse and finance the campaign with their own millions.

Thailand ain't doing so bad.

[Hugo6]

Arguably a coup is not the answer however, when an 'elected' Govt (notwithstanding vote fraud and vote buying), is controlling the purse strings, openly corrupt in both scamming the populace (a majority of their voters who lack the intelligence to even see what they are doing) and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid, what pray tell are the options?

The present Thaksin government (it's certainly not the Yingluck Govt) is grossly incompetent, a (democratically elected) fraud, being controlled by an exiled criminal, and stripping the fiscal reserves of Thailand. The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI. NACC et al simply means they are thumbing their collective noses at all of us. Call for another election? Hardly an option. Sadly, political conflict in Thailand is and has been dragging the country down since the second world war. Even the word 'government' in Thailand is offensive as they simply do not know how to govern. I can't see an option and a coup this time may well be very bloody. What other answers are there?

"Call for another election? Hardly an option."

why?

"openly corrupt in both scamming the populace - and lining their pockets with the minority voters taxes paid"

how?

"The fact they also control police and the so-called 'checks and balances' bodies such as DSI"

is there something wrong with a government who has control over their police, or do you prefer a government who has no control over their army?

and do you think when the dems were in charge, were they controlling the DSI?

I wasn't even going to respond to this - however, in the interests of all, fortunately most of the TV bloggers have the intelligence to realise every question here is answered in the post. Sadly - you don't see it.

no, sadly i don't see it because every question wasn't answered in your post. evidently you just can't answer them so you just cop out and avoid while trying to insult me at the same time.

but i agree, you shouldn't have responded at all if you can't answer my questions.

logic ain't his forté. being the first to post nonsense on any given thead is.