After Opening Your Eyes It's Hard To Shut Them, Advice On Relocating Family To Thailand...

[impulse]

I'm with Capt Haddock. I work in Thailand and like it just fine.

But if they sent my paycheck elsewhere, I wouldn't be too disappointed.

My only advice to anyone caught up in "The American Nightmare" is to quit watching the news and reading the newspaper. Every time I go back to the States and visit family, they're doing quite well and so are most of my friends. In fact, everything looks fine right up until I tune in to one of the gloom and doom talk shows, or read the chicken little newspapers. All of a sudden, it seems like we're all screwed, the Chinese are taking over and everyone is or will soon be unemployed.

Strangely, when I turn off the television and interact with real people, it all seems better...

[bangkokburning]

Dreamer at best, troll at worst.

Under 10 posts, never visited Thailand but knows about this forum and asks somewhat pointed questions.

Has a family, wants to own a bar.

TROLL ALERT

[impulse]

Asia has free enterprise, if you are smart and work hard you can make it. The west has controlled enterprise, not free, very hard to make the jump from employee to owner. Jim

If your expectation is to exceed 300 baht per day, a lawn mower and a few flyers is all you need to start up in the USA. Or a bucket and a few sponges to clean cars in your neighborhood. Not difficult at all to make the same jump that all those push carts along Sukhumvit have made...

I agree that it is more common to see self employed people in Asia, but it seems that's more related to the poor salary alternatives and the ease of skirting the rules, rather than a genuine ease of getting relevant permissions, etc.

Multiply the difficulty by 4-10 if you're a foreigner trying to set up in Asia without getting tossed in a home country jail for violating the corrupt foreign officials laws "back home".

Edited December 1, 2012 by impulse

[jamescollister]

Asia has free enterprise, if you are smart and work hard you can make it. The west has controlled enterprise, not free, very hard to make the jump from employee to owner. Jim

If your expectation is to exceed 300 baht per day, a lawn mower and a few flyers is all you need to start up in the USA. Or a bucket and a few sponges to clean cars in your neighborhood. Not difficult at all to make the same jump that all those push carts along Sukhumvit have made...

I agree that it is more common to see self employed people in Asia, but it seems that's more related to the poor salary alternatives and the ease of skirting the rules, rather than a genuine ease of getting relevant permissions, etc.

Multiply the difficulty by 4-10 if you're a foreigner trying to set up in Asia without getting tossed in a home country jail for violating the corrupt foreign officials laws "back home".

Don't know about the USA, but in OZ you can't go washng cars or mowing lawns or sell food at the side of the road without a dozen permits, local, State and federal, add to that all the insurance costs, health and safety regs that must be followed.

Agreed very hard for a farang to make it here, but know some who have a skill needed here, set up companies and made real money.

On paper at least I have made more money here than I probably earned in 20 years, still broke though that hasn't changed. Jim

[davejones]

Well, that is quite the dream However, it would be better if you were to spend some 'quality' time in Thailand and learn about life here. Then, 'After Opening Your Eyes', you may find that 'It's Hard To Shut Them'.

Seriouslty, Thailand is very xenophobic. The Thai educational system is among the worst in the world, even the very expensive 'International Schools' are not very good. The medical industry here is out to just make money off you. Rampant corruption, EVERYWHERE, and little or no hope for a better future.

As for owning a business, you better do some serious research into what would be involved. When I first came to Thailand in 2000, I wanted to open a business here. It didn't take me very long to realize that I could not operate my business in Thailand, because I run my businesses to very high moral and ethical standards.

There are much better options than Thailand. Especially if you are not a single male.

I live in Thailand but your post sounds like you live in a different country, because it's not the Thailand I recognize. Thailand is certainly not a xenophobia country. If it was, do you think 20 million tourists per year would keep coming here and keep returning. Everyone I know loves Thailand and they keep coming back again and again. The thing they love the most is the people, and that's true for me as well. If you have any xenophobia directed at you, then perhaps you need to take a look at yourself.

Medical care - I have had medical care here that is so much better than back in the UK and a very small fraction of the price. Of course hospitals and other medical services make money. They are business and that is what businesses do - make money. Or do you expect them to run at a loss?

Many foreigners run successful businesses here. Sounds like you could manage it.

[davejones]

The OP hasn't said how old he is or what his finances are like. If both he and his wife are over 50 and he is financially secure, then it could work. If they are both under 50, then getting a visa is going to be extremely difficult unless they have a very large amount of money to invest - maybe even $1-2 million. Schooling children here can be very expensive - over $15,000 per child per year for a good school. You're going to have to run a very successful business for that to happen. It's possible, but it depends on your background. If you are someone than has this kind of experience, then it could work. For most it wouldn't be easy though. But do some more research and ask more questions. And try to find some people who have already done what you want to do. And don't forget that anything is possible. Too many people will try to kill your dreams before they start, whatever those dreams are. The majority think that most things are impossible, usually based on their own inability to do them.

[impulse]

Don't know about the USA, but in OZ you can't go washng cars or mowing lawns or sell food at the side of the road without a dozen permits, local, State and federal, add to that all the insurance costs, health and safety regs that must be followed.

Agreed very hard for a farang to make it here, but know some who have a skill needed here, set up companies and made real money.

On paper at least I have made more money here than I probably earned in 20 years, still broke though that hasn't changed. Jim

We're probably in closer agreement than this exchange would indicate. I agree it's become convoluted to get into business in the west, largely because the government wants their share, but here's just a few examples:

For 1 year, I bought stuff at government surplus auctions and sold it on weekends at swap meets. Made over $1,000 on a typical weekend. Required only a state sales tax license and nothing else. Paid the state their share and still came home with a bunch.

I have sold a lot of stuff on EBay, most of it imported samples that I sold at auction to see what people were willing to pay. Made quite a bit, but it wasn't really the plan- just wanted to identify what the market would pay.

Got several friends that dive for golf balls and sell them. They make over $100K per year (probably before expenses, but they like to brag about how much they make and I like to hear it).

My nieces and nephews hired themselves out as lifeguards at private parties and made good money when they worked. Only required a lifeguard cert. (They should have had insurance, but they had nothing worth suing them for- college kids)

True, if you want to go into food service, you need more than a cart. But that's not all bad. And if you want insurance, it's going to cost you, but I doubt the lady that sells me my chicken has a lot of insurance.

Lots of opportunities to make a very good buck if you're creative. And not a one of these people ever paid off a police man to leave them alone...

[davejones]

Don't know about the USA, but in OZ you can't go washng cars or mowing lawns or sell food at the side of the road without a dozen permits, local, State and federal, add to that all the insurance costs, health and safety regs that must be followed.

Agreed very hard for a farang to make it here, but know some who have a skill needed here, set up companies and made real money.

On paper at least I have made more money here than I probably earned in 20 years, still broke though that hasn't changed. Jim

We're probably in closer agreement than this exchange would indicate. I agree it's become convoluted to get into business in the west, largely because the government wants their share, but here's just a few examples:

For 1 year, I bought stuff at government surplus auctions and sold it on weekends at swap meets. Made over $1,000 on a typical weekend. Required only a state sales tax license and nothing else. Paid the state their share and still came home with a bunch.

I have sold a lot of stuff on EBay, most of it imported samples that I sold at auction to see what people were willing to pay. Made quite a bit, but it wasn't really the plan- just wanted to identify what the market would pay.

Got several friends that dive for golf balls and sell them. They make over $100K per year (probably before expenses, but they like to brag about how much they make and I like to hear it).

My nieces and nephews hired themselves out as lifeguards at private parties and made good money when they worked. Only required a lifeguard cert. (They should have had insurance, but they had nothing worth suing them for- college kids)

True, if you want to go into food service, you need more than a cart. But that's not all bad. And if you want insurance, it's going to cost you, but I doubt the lady that sells me my chicken has a lot of insurance.

Lots of opportunities to make a very good buck if you're creative. And not a one of these people ever paid off a police man to leave them alone...

Very good post. Most people don't think outside the box enough when it comes to business. Say you're going to start a business and most people assume you're going to run a bar or restaurant. There are 1000s of ways to make good money if you think creatively. And that's exactly what many people are doing.

Despite increasing rules and regulations, it's still pretty easy to set up lots of kinds of businesses in the UK, especially if you're a one-man band. You can set up a limited company in minutes and start trading. It's very straightforward. Of course, particular types of business have sets of onerous rules.

[patongphil]

I intend to do the opposite of the OP and when my daughter reaches 4 or 5 head back to Oz. As far as I am concerned a decent education for my kids trumps all.

[jamescollister]

Don't know about the USA, but in OZ you can't go washng cars or mowing lawns or sell food at the side of the road without a dozen permits, local, State and federal, add to that all the insurance costs, health and safety regs that must be followed.

Agreed very hard for a farang to make it here, but know some who have a skill needed here, set up companies and made real money.

On paper at least I have made more money here than I probably earned in 20 years, still broke though that hasn't changed. Jim

We're probably in closer agreement than this exchange would indicate. I agree it's become convoluted to get into business in the west, largely because the government wants their share, but here's just a few examples:

For 1 year, I bought stuff at government surplus auctions and sold it on weekends at swap meets. Made over $1,000 on a typical weekend. Required only a state sales tax license and nothing else. Paid the state their share and still came home with a bunch.

I have sold a lot of stuff on EBay, most of it imported samples that I sold at auction to see what people were willing to pay. Made quite a bit, but it wasn't really the plan- just wanted to identify what the market would pay.

Got several friends that dive for golf balls and sell them. They make over $100K per year (probably before expenses, but they like to brag about how much they make and I like to hear it).

My nieces and nephews hired themselves out as lifeguards at private parties and made good money when they worked. Only required a lifeguard cert. (They should have had insurance, but they had nothing worth suing them for- college kids)

True, if you want to go into food service, you need more than a cart. But that's not all bad. And if you want insurance, it's going to cost you, but I doubt the lady that sells me my chicken has a lot of insurance.

Lots of opportunities to make a very good buck if you're creative. And not a one of these people ever paid off a police man to leave them alone...

Very valid points, there are opportunities in the west for small under the radar concerns, Yet think when any small business gets going, starts making money and employing workers, you will fine the Government is at the door telling you what color your toilet seats need to be and what you can or can not do. Even here I had to get permits from the EPA, health and safety and the factories board, plus licenses from the rubber board. In OZ those permits and regulations would have cost more than the buildings and machines,

Just a fact of life, most western counties are over Governed and over regulated. Jim

[impulse]

Very valid points, there are opportunities in the west for small under the radar concerns, Yet think when any small business gets going, starts making money and employing workers, you will fine the Government is at the door telling you what color your toilet seats need to be and what you can or can not do. Even here I had to get permits from the EPA, health and safety and the factories board, plus licenses from the rubber board. In OZ those permits and regulations would have cost more than the buildings and machines,

Just a fact of life, most western counties are over Governed and over regulated. Jim

There we agree 100%.

But working in Thailand, I find the environmental and safety regulations (in my field) here just as onerous and even less transparent than back home (with the exception of California, a truly messed up place to do business). Seems like we're always in trouble and paying out to everyone and their dog for something petty, and nobody can ever point to a written document that tells us why... They just come in their official positions to tell us to fork over or else.

Edited December 1, 2012 by impulse

[jamescollister]

Very valid points, there are opportunities in the west for small under the radar concerns, Yet think when any small business gets going, starts making money and employing workers, you will fine the Government is at the door telling you what color your toilet seats need to be and what you can or can not do. Even here I had to get permits from the EPA, health and safety and the factories board, plus licenses from the rubber board. In OZ those permits and regulations would have cost more than the buildings and machines,

Just a fact of life, most western counties are over Governed and over regulated. Jim

There we agree 100%.

But working in Thailand, I find the environmental and safety regulations (in my field) here just as onerous and even less transparent than back home (with the exception of California, a truly messed up place to do business). Seems like we're always in trouble and paying out to everyone and their dog for something petty, and nobody can ever point to a written document that tells us why... They just come in their official positions to tell us to fork over or else.

Guess you don't have firearms where you work, here it's bandit country everyone is armed. Not too many Government officials want to even drive out here, never mind ask for kick backs. Jim

[WhizBang]

<snip> The west has controlled enterprise, not free, very hard to make the jump from employee to owner. Jim

Oh, oh. I guess the past 25 years of running my own SUCCESSFUL business in the USA was not real then. I went from employee to owner without any problems at all. And one can do it just as easily today IF you know what you are doing.

But the real question is, will your kids have enough upstairs to be able to start and run a successful business after a Thai education and parenting?

[jamescollister]

<snip> The west has controlled enterprise, not free, very hard to make the jump from employee to owner. Jim

Oh, oh. I guess the past 25 years of running my own SUCCESSFUL business in the USA was not real then. I went from employee to owner without any problems at all. And one can do it just as easily today IF you know what you are doing.

But the real question is, will your kids have enough upstairs to be able to start and run a successful business after a Thai education and parenting?

Think you will find enough billionaires in Thailand who did OK, have a shot of red bull. Jim

[WhizBang]

I live in Thailand but your post sounds like you live in a different country, because it's not the Thailand I recognize. Thailand is certainly not a xenophobia country. If it was, do you think 20 million tourists per year would keep coming here and keep returning. Everyone I know loves Thailand and they keep coming back again and again. The thing they love the most is the people, and that's true for me as well. If you have any xenophobia directed at you, then perhaps you need to take a look at yourself.

Medical care - I have had medical care here that is so much better than back in the UK and a very small fraction of the price. Of course hospitals and other medical services make money. They are business and that is what businesses do - make money. Or do you expect them to run at a loss?

Many foreigners run successful businesses here. Sounds like you could manage it.

Don't misunderstand. I love Thailand and the people, but I find the rampant corruption, especially amoung the police and politicians very hard to stomach. And let's not talk about the many many scams ALL foreigners are subject to.

As for tourists, well they usually do not see the bad side, unless they become one of the many victims. It's not until you have been here for a while that you start to see the reality.

However, my reply was intended for the OP (who is now starting to look like a troll), and his intention to come here with his non-Thai wife and two daughters. If he was single, I would say go for it, but with a family, no way. Nothing but a disaster in the making.

[rgs2001uk]

Dont want to rain on anyones parade, however,

the last American I knew of who came here in similiar circumstances, lost the lot.

Married with two kids and a wife, gave up a well paying job in the Middle East to live the dream.

The dream quickly turned sour when he found out he hadnt bought the boat but was only leasing it.

Next thing is he gets himself a bit of Thai tail, wife goes crazy, f**ks off out of Thailand back to America and sues his ass off.

Dont know what happened after that, dont mix business with pleasure, and dont shit on your own doorstep.

[manarak]

Nothing but a disaster in the making.

Some disasters come as a liberation for some.

If someone feels "not free" in the USA, I wonder how the person feels wearing the shackles of marriage.

Anyway, OP wanted to know how realistic it is to make enough money in Thailand to live the lifestyle he imagines, and the point is that it is not so easy!

His private matters with the marriage and stuff are his business.

Edited December 1, 2012 by manarak

[WhizBang]

Think you will find enough billionaires in Thailand who did OK, have a shot of red bull. Jim

Really? All legit and upstanding citizens, just like Thaksin?

[BlackPuddingBertha]

Thailand is not really the Land of Opportunity, unless you happen to be a Burmese peasant.

It's also quite attractive to the myriad crooks, scammers and other assorted incompetent farang losers who flock here to become real estate agents, EFL teachers or to "run a bar", having discovered that they are just too stupid or lazy to keep an honest job in the West.

[davejones]

If someone feels "not free" in the USA, I wonder how the person feels wearing the shackles of marriage.

Anyway, OP wanted to know how realistic it is to make enough money in Thailand to live the lifestyle he imagines, and the point is that it is not so easy!

His private matters with the marriage and stuff are his business.

Not everyone sees marriage as wearing shackles. In general married people are happier, healthier and live longer. Feeling free means different things to different people. Just because you want to be free from a country doesn't mean you want to be single or free from your marriage. You could have a very happy marriage and both want to be free in other sense.

Most people can't make money in any country. Some people can make money anywhere. Whether anyone can make money in Thailand is mostly down to the person. There are countless opportunities here to make very big money indeed. Exporting is just one opportunity. The potential money you can make is absolutely huge. You could make $1+/year with a good export business. It's not that difficult. And that's not just the only business. Manufacturing is a goldmine. Plenty more as well.

[cheechoo]

Think you will find enough billionaires in Thailand who did OK, have a shot of red bull. Jim

Really? All legit and upstanding citizens, just like Thaksin?

Jim is broke...........dont be jim.....................lol.

[copa8]

Maybe the OP is from Detroit? If so, then Thailand would be moving up.

[copa8]

What are they missing in the west. Jim

A FUTURE.

Think you may find the future is Asia at the moment, better a well of Thai than an unemployed welfare recipient in the west. Asia has free enterprise, if you are smart and work hard you can make it. The west has controlled enterprise, not free, very hard to make the jump from employee to owner. Jim

maybe OP should consider other places in asia...perhaps hk?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-20/hong-kong-beats-netherlands-and-u-s-as-best-place-for-business.html

[copa8]

I'm with Capt Haddock. I work in Thailand and like it just fine.

But if they sent my paycheck elsewhere, I wouldn't be too disappointed.

My only advice to anyone caught up in "The American Nightmare" is to quit watching the news and reading the newspaper. Every time I go back to the States and visit family, they're doing quite well and so are most of my friends. In fact, everything looks fine right up until I tune in to one of the gloom and doom talk shows, or read the chicken little newspapers. All of a sudden, it seems like we're all screwed, the Chinese are taking over and everyone is or will soon be unemployed.

Strangely, when I turn off the television and interact with real people, it all seems better...

they need gloom and doom to get the headlines. will always need a foreign threat to generate fear. was the soviets during the cold war period, japanese in the 80s and now the chinese. who knows, in 20-30 years, might be the canadians.

[copa8]

Asia has free enterprise, if you are smart and work hard you can make it. The west has controlled enterprise, not free, very hard to make the jump from employee to owner. Jim

I agree that it is more common to see self employed people in Asia, but it seems that's more related to the poor salary alternatives and the ease of skirting the rules, rather than a genuine ease of getting relevant permissions, etc.

I think it's more like if you don't work, you don't eat. If you can't find a job working for someone, then you work for yourself (sell fruits, noodles, etc). Thailand and most of Asia don't have a welfare system like the U.S. Therefore, you can't just sit on your ass at home and still collect a check from the government.

[KHR1010]

You could always look to Malaysia, they're much more accommodating and English is the strong second language. If you're going to open a business then that is the place to start, the people are generally honest and don't think it's a national pastime to rip off farang! the schools are pretty good and your kids could enrol in a state school without suffering too much, on top of that Bahasa Malay is a much, much easier language to learn...I'd check out Malaysia first and then maybe Vietnam. My advice is don't bring your family to the LOS.

I absolutely agree on the Malaysia advice, check out the MM2H program (http://www.mm2h.com/) I joined two years back, it is excellent and has helped facilitate the assets I have in Malaysia. For a relatively small buy-in you get a great package including 10 Year visa, including your family, education incentives, business incentives and so on. Thailand is NOT friendly to foreigners opening businesses here. I have owned a business here since the early 1990's and received my Thai citizenship almost 10 years ago, and I still do not consider it a good place for me to do business. My Thai company serves as less than 10% of my corporate portfolio, I do 90% of my business outside of Thailand. Having my companies registered in countries that are not pineapple republics and have sound policies for corporate registration; ie Hong Kong and Singapore . If it were not for my financial position allowing me to circumvent a lot of the issues here in the Kingdom and vey close relations to a large Thai corporation I would never consider staying in Thailand or subjecting my family to this place.

It sounds like you are doing this with limited funds, I highly suggest you consider Malaysia or elsewhere in the region to truly realize your dream. Without connections and a large financial portfolio it will be crap-shoot for you to succeed; odds would be better in the casino!

[Gary A]

You could always look to Malaysia, they're much more accommodating and English is the strong second language. If you're going to open a business then that is the place to start, the people are generally honest and don't think it's a national pastime to rip off farang! the schools are pretty good and your kids could enrol in a state school without suffering too much, on top of that Bahasa Malay is a much, much easier language to learn...I'd check out Malaysia first and then maybe Vietnam. My advice is don't bring your family to the LOS.

I absolutely agree on the Malaysia advice, check out the MM2H program (http://www.mm2h.com/) I joined two years back, it is excellent and has helped facilitate the assets I have in Malaysia. For a relatively small buy-in you get a great package including 10 Year visa, including your family, education incentives, business incentives and so on. Thailand is NOT friendly to foreigners opening businesses here. I have owned a business here since the early 1990's and received my Thai citizenship almost 10 years ago, and I still do not consider it a good place for me to do business. My Thai company serves as less than 10% of my corporate portfolio, I do 90% of my business outside of Thailand. Having my companies registered in countries that are not pineapple republics and have sound policies for corporate registration; ie Hong Kong and Singapore . If it were not for my financial position allowing me to circumvent a lot of the issues here in the Kingdom and vey close relations to a large Thai corporation I would never consider staying in Thailand or subjecting my family to this place.

It sounds like you are doing this with limited funds, I highly suggest you consider Malaysia or elsewhere in the region to truly realize your dream. Without connections and a large financial portfolio it will be crap-shoot for you to succeed; odds would be better in the casino!

What do you consider a relatively "small" buy in?

[vijer]

DON'T DO IT!!! DON'T DO IT!!! DON'T DO IT!!!

1. You can't work. The only work is as an English teacher which really does not pay well.

2. it is very difficult to own a business here. Plan to pay bribes to everyone on a regular basis, especially if you own a bar.

3. It is polluted here and getting worse.

4. The education system is atrocious. Unless you can afford to send your kids to an international school plan to home school them.

5. Thailand is a very expensive place to live.

6. Thailand is heading for collapse, soon. Over building everywhere, my area has about 10 new developments underway, it is not possible the population is increasing enough to occupy all of these units. Expect a glut in the market. Expect everything to become more run down than it already is.

7. Expect the Thai's to make anything look like s**t in a short period of time. My new community is starting to look very ghetto as every Thai builds some f***ed up looking attachment to their house.

8. In one of the hottest countries in the world, they haven't figured out how to build a house so it is insulated, no double pained windows, no insulated roofs, thin walls made to transfer heat not block it, I could go on.

9. You could show a Thai irrefutable proof there is a better way to do something and they will just look at you like your crazy.

10. Expect anything you want to get done to require at least 4 Thai's to do it. In the States one person would do it, have it done in an hour and be gone. Here many people show up, spend about 2 hours discussing what will be done, then do it with their hands and tools from the stone age. It will take them a few days to complete the work and it will be substandard work. Watched a worker the other day mix concrete on the asphalt, no bucket, just poured the sand, water and cement in a pile and started mixing with a hoe.

It's a good place to come for a man's vacation, then leave.

[SteeleJoe]

DON'T DO IT!!! DON'T DO IT!!! DON'T DO IT!!!

1. You can't work. The only work is as an English teacher which really does not pay well.

2. it is very difficult to own a business here. Plan to pay bribes to everyone on a regular basis, especially if you own a bar.

3. It is polluted here and getting worse.

4. The education system is atrocious. Unless you can afford to send your kids to an international school plan to home school them.

5. Thailand is a very expensive place to live.

6. Thailand is heading for collapse, soon. Over building everywhere, my area has about 10 new developments underway, it is not possible the population is increasing enough to occupy all of these units. Expect a glut in the market. Expect everything to become more run down than it already is.

7. Expect the Thai's to make anything look like s**t in a short period of time. My new community is starting to look very ghetto as every Thai builds some f***ed up looking attachment to their house.

8. In one of the hottest countries in the world, they haven't figured out how to build a house so it is insulated, no double pained windows, no insulated roofs, thin walls made to transfer heat not block it, I could go on.

9. You could show a Thai irrefutable proof there is a better way to do something and they will just look at you like your crazy.

10. Expect anything you want to get done to require at least 4 Thai's to do it. In the States one person would do it, have it done in an hour and be gone. Here many people show up, spend about 2 hours discussing what will be done, then do it with their hands and tools from the stone age. It will take them a few days to complete the work and it will be substandard work. Watched a worker the other day mix concrete on the asphalt, no bucket, just poured the sand, water and cement in a pile and started mixing with a hoe.

It's a good place to come for a man's vacation, then leave.

Doesn't do much for one's credibility when the very first entry on a list is completely and indisputably false...

[nong38]

About time for the OP to give us an update on his current thoughts and plans dont you think?