Thailand Must Learn From Philippines On Abolishing Death Penalty

[webfact]

Thailand must learn from Philippines on abolishing death penalty, says expert

Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Various campaigns and lobbying activities had to be undertaken before the Philippines eventually did away with capital punishment in 2006, a legal expert and abolitionist told Thai academics and activists .

Thodore Te, a former coordinator of the Manila-based Free Legal Assistant Group and an assistant professor of law at the University of the Philippines, said relatives of people on death row had been organised, politicians approached and lobbied, and an imperfect judicial system highlighted for being particularly biased against the poor and less educated.

Te said the Philippines was fortunate because back in 2006, the then President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo was unpopular and needed something to boost her ratings, and so she pushed the bill to abolish the death penalty, which also served to popularise her visit to the Pope at the Vatican.

Te said Thailand, a country where Buddhists compose the majority of the population, should be able to abolish the death penalty as Buddhism teaches people to abstain from taking lives of not just humans but other sentient beings as well.

Thai legal experts and activists met Te in Bangkok yesterday in an event organised by the Thai Chapter of Amnesty International. They expressed frustration, however, saying many Buddhist monks were not supportive of the abolition of the death penalty, some citing the law of karma.

A source from Amnesty International Thailand also said none of the major political parties in Thailand today have expressed interest in supporting the abolition of capital punishment.

Te said in the Philippines, both senators and members of the House of Representatives were approached, with particular interest paid to those who are non-committal because there's room to convince them or change their minds.

Thailand has succeeded in getting the debate to the senate's committee level, but attempts to have it considered by the Parliament committee on human rights have been rejected, said a source.

Currently, there's no visible Buddhist scholar who would advocate abolition of the death penalty, the source added.

-- The Nation 2012-12-10

[seminomadic]

Must they?

[tfc]

Must they?

Just run with it mate.

[tomross46]

If Thailand wants to follow Philippines, They could put corrupt polioticians in jail, waiting trial. or if they want to eliminate corruption, follow China. After trial execute them.

[ratcatcher]

Abhisit, Suthep: death before amnesty bill

The Nation

say a little prayer for me

[Thai at Heart]

how about abolishing bail whilst under appeal? now that would solve a lot of problems.

[tropo]

In provincial Philippines execution is taken care of by the people without trial or court. Over the years I cannot count the number of corpses that have turned up in rice and sugarcane fields. There was a chopped up body in a sack discovered in a sugarcane field last week. I could smell where they dumped it every time I rode past. My wife's father discovered a headless corpse in his rice field last year. If you're a bad person you won't have to wait for court.

Make no mistake about it, there is little to learn from the Philippines. It is an extremely primitive society. Thailand must be doing something right because it is civilized by comparison. IMO it goes back to when the Spanish converted the island people to Catholicism. Now there's a dangerous mix of "Christianity" and Animism and other primitive religions. You'll see them going to church on Sunday morning and practicing Voodoo in the afternoon.

Edited December 10, 2012 by tropo

[Card]

In provincial Philippines execution is taken care of by the people without trial or court. Over the years I cannot count the number of corpses that have turned up in rice and sugarcane fields. There was a chopped up body in a sack discovered in a sugarcane field last week. I could smell where they dumped it every time I rode past. My wife's father discovered a headless corpse in his rice field last year. If you're a bad person you won't have to wait for court.

Make no mistake about it, there is little to learn from the Philippines. It is an extremely primitive society. Thailand must be doing something right because it is civilized by comparison. IMO it goes back to when the Spanish converted the island people to Catholicism. Now there's a dangerous mix of "Christianity" and Animism and other primitive religions. You'll see them going to church on Sunday morning and practicing Voodoo in the afternoon.

This is not locally administered capital punishment nor justice, it's just plain murder.

[Card]

A country with so much corruption in the government, police and judiciary where money talks and the poor suffer should have no capital punishment. Capital punishment is set up to deter, punish and eliminate the poor - and not always for murder (look at China where corruption and other lesser crimes are capital offences) and some of them will be innocent or have extenuating circumstances. The rich do not get put to death in these countries, guilty or not. They either don't get to trial, get let off or get pardoned.

[brianP]

Look at California with a death penalty that's not enforced and the millions of $'s to keep the pricks alive and pay their on going legal battle.

The dead these scum left behind are not even bone dust now and yet they are still taking precious resources still keeping misery and injustice alive with the families of the innocent victims. Please send them to their next lives and let Karma do it's work!

[Card]

Look at California with a death penalty that's not enforced and the millions of $'s to keep the pricks alive and pay their on going legal battle.

The dead these scum left behind are not even bone dust now and yet they are still taking precious resources still keeping misery and injustice alive with the families of the innocent victims. Please send them to their next lives and let Karma do it's work!

And there are numerous cases in the USA (and elsewhere) where prisoners found guilty of murder are subsequently found to be innocent. Some even after they have been executed. Good justice is expensive - it needs to be to protect the innocent.

[kevvy]

and thai do everything budda teaches right? they are only Buddhists when they want to be . well alot of them anyway ...

[witje78]

Look at California with a death penalty that's not enforced and the millions of $'s to keep the pricks alive and pay their on going legal battle.

The dead these scum left behind are not even bone dust now and yet they are still taking precious resources still keeping misery and injustice alive with the families of the innocent victims. Please send them to their next lives and let Karma do it's work!

So you want Karma to do it's work and therefor wish that other people are killed...

I can only respond that i do wish the best for your Karma!

[JulietLima]

should the US also learn from the Philippines ?

[khunken]

Thailand shouldn't just learn from the Philippines but from all the countries that have abolished the death penalty. Most countries who practice it far too often execute the poor & sometimes innocent. It is not a deterrent & is even deemed preferable by some convicts to life imprisonment.

I have never seen non-manipulated statistics that show that premeditated murders rise after the abolition. It's just revenge, not justice.

[EarthAlien]

In provincial Philippines execution is taken care of by the people without trial or court. Over the years I cannot count the number of corpses that have turned up in rice and sugarcane fields. There was a chopped up body in a sack discovered in a sugarcane field last week. I could smell where they dumped it every time I rode past. My wife's father discovered a headless corpse in his rice field last year. If you're a bad person you won't have to wait for court.

Make no mistake about it, there is little to learn from the Philippines. It is an extremely primitive society. Thailand must be doing something right because it is civilized by comparison. IMO it goes back to when the Spanish converted the island people to Catholicism. Now there's a dangerous mix of "Christianity" and Animism and other primitive religions. You'll see them going to church on Sunday morning and practicing Voodoo in the afternoon.

This is not locally administered capital punishment nor justice, it's just plain murder.

..and capital punishment is nothing less than "Judicial Murder"

Remember,... we have a "Legal System" and NOT a "Justice System". This is the same the world over and is reason why people with money and connections at high levels can walk free and the poor and ignorant get hung.

Many an innocent person has gone to their death because of flaws in the "Legal System"

Edited December 10, 2012 by EarthAlien

[tropo]

In provincial Philippines execution is taken care of by the people without trial or court. Over the years I cannot count the number of corpses that have turned up in rice and sugarcane fields. There was a chopped up body in a sack discovered in a sugarcane field last week. I could smell where they dumped it every time I rode past. My wife's father discovered a headless corpse in his rice field last year. If you're a bad person you won't have to wait for court.

Make no mistake about it, there is little to learn from the Philippines. It is an extremely primitive society. Thailand must be doing something right because it is civilized by comparison. IMO it goes back to when the Spanish converted the island people to Catholicism. Now there's a dangerous mix of "Christianity" and Animism and other primitive religions. You'll see them going to church on Sunday morning and practicing Voodoo in the afternoon.

This is not locally administered capital punishment nor justice, it's just plain murder.

Call it what you like. The central government has surprisingly little control over what goes on in the rural areas. The people take care of it in the old fashioned way - just as they used to in the wild west. Mostly these bodies are never identified. It's just too easy and no one is watching over it.

[rgs2001uk]

Thailand shouldn't just learn from the Philippines but from all the countries that have abolished the death penalty. Most countries who practice it far too often execute the poor & sometimes innocent. It is not a deterrent & is even deemed preferable by some convicts to life imprisonment.

I have never seen non-manipulated statistics that show that premeditated murders rise after the abolition. It's just revenge, not justice.

Care to throw up some links to back up your claim,

"Most countries who practice it far too often execute the poor & sometimes innocent."

Lets go back in time say for the last 10-12 years, seeing as it takes place far too often, you shouldnt have any difficulty listing say 5 cases where innocents have been executed.

[Card]

Thailand shouldn't just learn from the Philippines but from all the countries that have abolished the death penalty. Most countries who practice it far too often execute the poor & sometimes innocent. It is not a deterrent & is even deemed preferable by some convicts to life imprisonment.

I have never seen non-manipulated statistics that show that premeditated murders rise after the abolition. It's just revenge, not justice.

Care to throw up some links to back up your claim,

"Most countries who practice it far too often execute the poor & sometimes innocent."

Lets go back in time say for the last 10-12 years, seeing as it takes place far too often, you shouldnt have any difficulty listing say 5 cases where innocents have been executed.

Just do a Google on 'Wrongful executions' - there are numerous examples around the world mentioned in Wikipedia. And why do you need to just restrict yourself to the last 10-12 years? Things haven't necessarily changed in terms of judicial accuracy for much longer than that in many countries.

[rgs2001uk]

Thailand shouldn't just learn from the Philippines but from all the countries that have abolished the death penalty. Most countries who practice it far too often execute the poor & sometimes innocent. It is not a deterrent & is even deemed preferable by some convicts to life imprisonment.

I have never seen non-manipulated statistics that show that premeditated murders rise after the abolition. It's just revenge, not justice.

Care to throw up some links to back up your claim,

"Most countries who practice it far too often execute the poor & sometimes innocent."

Lets go back in time say for the last 10-12 years, seeing as it takes place far too often, you shouldnt have any difficulty listing say 5 cases where innocents have been executed.

Just do a Google on 'Wrongful executions' - there are numerous examples around the world mentioned in Wikipedia. And why do you need to just restrict yourself to the last 10-12 years? Things haven't necessarily changed in terms of judicial accuracy for much longer than that in many countries.

The reason I mention 10-12 years was because of things like DNA which wasnt available years ago.

If things havent changed in terms of judicial accuracy, then the problem lies with the judicial system, perhaps time for an overhaul of outdated laws and legislation.

I think the term beyond all reasonable doubt should be applied.

Or lets take it a step further, until it can be proven 100%.

Many now serving time where it has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt and its a 100% certainty that these people commited the acts, so why not fry them?

[xen]

Poignant words from Steve Earle about the justice system

Billy Austin

(Steve Earle)

My name is Billy Austin

I'm Twenty-Nine years old

I was born in Oklahoma

Quarter Cherokee I'm told

Don't remember Oklahoma

Been so long since I left home

Seems like I've always been in prison

Like I've always been alone

Didn't mean to hurt nobody

Never thought I'd cross that line

I held up a filling station

Like I'd done a hundred times

The kid done like I told him

He lay face down on the floor

guess I'll never know what made me

Turn and walk back through that door

The shot rang out like thunder

My ears rang like a bell

No one came runnin'

So I called the cops myself

Took their time to get there

And I guess I could'a run

I knew I should be feeling something

But I never shed tear one

I didn't even make the papers

'Cause I only killed one man

but my trial was over quickly

And then the long hard wait began

Court appointed lawyer

Couldn't look me in the eye

He just stood up and closed his briefcase

When they sentenced me to die

Now my waitin's over

As the final hour drags by

I ain't about to tell you

That I don't deserve to die

But there's twenty-seven men here

Mostly black, brown and poor

Most of em are guilty

Who are you to say for sure?

So when the preacher comes to get me

And they shave off all my hair

Could you take that long walk with me

Knowing hell is waitin' there

Could you pull that switch yourself sir

With a sure and steady hand

Could you still tell youself

That you're better than I am

My name is Billy Austin

I'm twenty-nine years old

I was born in Oklahoma

Quarter Cherokee I'm told

[Card]

Thailand shouldn't just learn from the Philippines but from all the countries that have abolished the death penalty. Most countries who practice it far too often execute the poor & sometimes innocent. It is not a deterrent & is even deemed preferable by some convicts to life imprisonment.

I have never seen non-manipulated statistics that show that premeditated murders rise after the abolition. It's just revenge, not justice.

Care to throw up some links to back up your claim,

"Most countries who practice it far too often execute the poor & sometimes innocent."

Lets go back in time say for the last 10-12 years, seeing as it takes place far too often, you shouldnt have any difficulty listing say 5 cases where innocents have been executed.

Just do a Google on 'Wrongful executions' - there are numerous examples around the world mentioned in Wikipedia. And why do you need to just restrict yourself to the last 10-12 years? Things haven't necessarily changed in terms of judicial accuracy for much longer than that in many countries.

The reason I mention 10-12 years was because of things like DNA which wasnt available years ago.

If things havent changed in terms of judicial accuracy, then the problem lies with the judicial system, perhaps time for an overhaul of outdated laws and legislation.

I think the term beyond all reasonable doubt should be applied.

Or lets take it a step further, until it can be proven 100%.

Many now serving time where it has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt and its a 100% certainty that these people commited the acts, so why not fry them?

In one paragraph you seem to agree that an update is required, then you seem to accept that 100% certainty is possible - the two do not match. 'Beyond reasonable doubt' does not mean 100% accuracy. You turn of phrase 'fry' shows a certain anger which has no place in a discussion of justice.

For example, esp in the USA, if someone has been accused for murder that they did not commit, then if enough psychological pressure is applied, and there are various ways of doing this without torture and it can be very effective with the right victim and with certain promises, then they may well admit to a murder if they are made to believe they can be convicted but could avoid the death penalty by admission of guilt. Then when it is brought to court jurors are more likely to convict on the basis of a confession to murder because they have trouble accepting that an innocent person would admit to such a crime unless they really were guilty, even if the admission is retracted. Of course convictions are not usually accepted on the basis of just a confession but a confession is a very powerful tool in the whole process and it can be manipulated and extracted from innocents quite easily. And lawyers for the accused are not always the best ones when the state pays and the poor often have no alternative, unlike the rich who can afford the best.

[Card]

I might add that a much better alternative to execution is a life-means-life sentence. That way, the guilty get to ponder their sins for the rest of their life, they are taken out of society and there is the possibility of innocents being redeemed and released. That is expensive but much better justice. It's better that 10 guilty people are let off than 1 innocent is executed. You may disagree with that but that's because you are not one of those innocents.

I might add that DNA evidence is very powerful and extremely useful in proving guilt and innocence but it is NOT the be all and end all of evidence. DNA can be planted and tests can be screwed up. Also DNA may not have any role in a guilty verdict.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Card

[tropo]

I might add that a much better alternative to execution is a life-means-life sentence. That way, the guilty get to ponder their sins for the rest of their life, they are taken out of society and there is the possibility of innocents being redeemed and released. That is expensive but much better justice. It's better that 10 guilty people are let off than 1 innocent is executed. You may disagree with that but that's because you are not one of those innocents.

That's a great idea, but there's not enough room in prisons and it costs too much to keep them alive for life.

[Card]

I might add that a much better alternative to execution is a life-means-life sentence. That way, the guilty get to ponder their sins for the rest of their life, they are taken out of society and there is the possibility of innocents being redeemed and released. That is expensive but much better justice. It's better that 10 guilty people are let off than 1 innocent is executed. You may disagree with that but that's because you are not one of those innocents.

That's a great idea, but there's not enough room in prisons and it costs too much to keep them alive for life.

So build more prisons and collect more taxes - it's money well spent.

[tropo]

I might add that a much better alternative to execution is a life-means-life sentence. That way, the guilty get to ponder their sins for the rest of their life, they are taken out of society and there is the possibility of innocents being redeemed and released. That is expensive but much better justice. It's better that 10 guilty people are let off than 1 innocent is executed. You may disagree with that but that's because you are not one of those innocents.

That's a great idea, but there's not enough room in prisons and it costs too much to keep them alive for life.

So build more prisons and collect more taxes - it's money well spent.

It's easy to do sitting back on your armchair. Tell me again, what is the purpose of keeping hardened criminals alive at the expense of the tax payer?

[Card]

I might add that a much better alternative to execution is a life-means-life sentence. That way, the guilty get to ponder their sins for the rest of their life, they are taken out of society and there is the possibility of innocents being redeemed and released. That is expensive but much better justice. It's better that 10 guilty people are let off than 1 innocent is executed. You may disagree with that but that's because you are not one of those innocents.

That's a great idea, but there's not enough room in prisons and it costs too much to keep them alive for life.

So build more prisons and collect more taxes - it's money well spent.

It's easy to do sitting back on your armchair. Tell me again, what is the purpose of keeping hardened criminals alive at the expense of the tax payer?

And your armchair. Read my posts again. It's all in there.

[tropo]

And your armchair. Read my posts again. It's all in there.

I'm not the one sitting in an armchair suggesting that taxpayers build more prisons - that's your caper.

It's impractical. Why do you think life sentences are so short? This is not a world for idealists.

Edited December 12, 2012 by tropo

[soomak]

Thailand shouldn't just learn from the Philippines but from all the countries that have abolished the death penalty. Most countries who practice it far too often execute the poor & sometimes innocent. It is not a deterrent & is even deemed preferable by some convicts to life imprisonment.

I have never seen non-manipulated statistics that show that premeditated murders rise after the abolition. It's just revenge, not justice.

You are absolutely right.

The murder rates in Western European countries are the lowest in the world, and as far as I know they don't have a death penalty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_subregion

[chiangmaikelly]

Thailand shouldn't just learn from the Philippines but from all the countries that have abolished the death penalty. Most countries who practice it far too often execute the poor & sometimes innocent. It is not a deterrent & is even deemed preferable by some convicts to life imprisonment.

I have never seen non-manipulated statistics that show that premeditated murders rise after the abolition. It's just revenge, not justice.

You are absolutely right.

The murder rates in Western European countries are the lowest in the world, and as far as I know they don't have a death penalty.

http://en.wikipedia....te#By_subregion

So do you think there is a correlation between the abolition of the death penalty and murder?