AleG Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Is there any evidence, any at all, to the effect that the "reds" burnt down Central Zen plaza ??? It's generally accepted but where is the evidence, where are the convictions, why were the two accused acquitted ???? ... They said they would burn it, they set it up for burning and some protesters were caught, on video, starting the fires ( ) Besides that it's absolutely incontrovertible that Red Shirts burnt down dozens of other places in their "shopping list".Philw fetish with Central World is part of his little misinformation pro-bono campaign to rewrite history in favor of the Red Shirts and their masters. Try to spin conspiracy theories around the burning of CW as a toehold to whitewashing them of all the other arson attacks they committed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MILT Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 What a bunch of clowns. I would be saying this no matter who is in office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moruya Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Yes, there is evidence that the red shirts burnt down central world, just not enough evidence to convict individuals. Does the fact that individual soldiers can't be identified mean that the army didn't kill anyone? Sent from my HTC phone. Now isn't that strange - there's a bit of a dichotomy there. Lets just assume for the sake of argument that you are reasoning that there is evidence that the red shirts burnt down Central World. All of the suspects have spent up to two years in prison (5 other adults were accused until freed a month or so ago with no evidence linking them to the charges). Now another two non adults have been found not guilty due to no evidence linking them to the burning of central world. Yet you reasoning is that some red shirts must be guilty because there is evidence that points to this.Well, if you and all the other posters that are so convinced of this I'm sure the courts would like to see your evidence 'cos the "evidence" they've got is plainly no good. Now heres the dichotomy. Now you use this reasoning to say that just because they don't know which soldier fired the fatal bullets you won't deny the army killed people. OK BUT NO SOLDIER HAS SPENT TWO YEARS IN JAIL BECAUSE OF ASSUMPTION. They know what company was in charge of the "roadblock" the day the taxi driver was shot. They knew who was in charge of those soldiers who managed to miss the driver of the van "straying onto a army held position" but managed to kill a bystander taxi driver and a 14 year old kid. But they didn't spend 2 years in jail. Why not? Its called Double Standards and is what pees off UDD supporters. The red shirts are peed off that they are not rich after 6 months of supporting Thaksin's trough fest. They already signed away their dead for a slice of the action but still remain at the end of a remote control for certain events. This trial nonsense is just to feed them some bones and keep their egos fed. Used again like crack whores Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) Is there any evidence, any at all, to the effect that the "reds" burnt down Central Zen plaza ??? It's generally accepted but where is the evidence, where are the convictions, why were the two accused acquitted ???? ... They said they would burn it, they set it up for burning and some protesters were caught, on video, starting the fires ( ) Besides that it's absolutely incontrovertible that Red Shirts burnt down dozens of other places in their "shopping list".Philw fetish with Central World is part of his little misinformation pro-bono campaign to rewrite history in favor of the Red Shirts and their masters. Try to spin conspiracy theories around the burning of CW as a toehold to whitewashing them of all the other arson attacks they committed. Thai politics is quite complex, and there are usually unknown factors at play. Again, where is your evidence ?? Do you seriously suggest some one other than the RTA shot the nurses and the others in the temple ?? One would have thought the government of the day would have done their best to bring charges and support their various allegations in justification of their actions, would one not ??? No arsonists convicted or successfully brought to trial in the most public fire raising ever in Thailand............ 30,000 troops in the immediate vicinity, god knows how many cops and other security people, very many CCTV cameras, internal security in the building, hundreds of journos all around and thousands of demonstrators and yet, so far ( nearly 3 yrs on ) no meaningful arrests and no prospect of any. How could that be ??? Of the 500 heavily armed, able to frighten the army, mercenary forces, men in black, there is now no trace, whatsoever................... Regarding "heavily armed" redshirts, there is no evidence in the public domain of any armed redshirt being justifiably shot for presenting an armed threat to security forces.......... And so on........... Where is your evidence , please ?? Notable that whybothers normally fast responses are absent............ Edited December 19, 2012 by philw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Is there any evidence, any at all, to the effect that the "reds" burnt down Central Zen plaza ??? It's generally accepted but where is the evidence, where are the convictions, why were the two accused acquitted ???? ... They said they would burn it, they set it up for burning and some protesters were caught, on video, starting the fires ( ) Besides that it's absolutely incontrovertible that Red Shirts burnt down dozens of other places in their "shopping list".Philw fetish with Central World is part of his little misinformation pro-bono campaign to rewrite history in favor of the Red Shirts and their masters. Try to spin conspiracy theories around the burning of CW as a toehold to whitewashing them of all the other arson attacks they committed. Thai politics is quite complex, and there are usually unknown factors at play. Again, where is your evidence ?? Do you seriously suggest some one other than the RTA shot the nurses and the others in the temple ?? One would have thought the government of the day would have done their best to bring charges and support their various allegations in justification of their actions, would one not ??? No arsonists convicted or successfully brought to trial in the most public fire raising ever in Thailand............ 30,000 troops in the immediate vicinity, god knows how many cops and other security people, very many CCTV cameras, internal security in the building, hundreds of journos all around and thousands of demonstrators and yet, so far ( nearly 3 yrs on ) no meaningful arrests and no prospect of any. How could that be ??? Of the 500 heavily armed, able to frighten the army, mercenary forces, men in black, there is now no trace, whatsoever................... Regarding "heavily armed" redshirts, there is no evidence in the public domain of any armed redshirt being justifiably shot for presenting an armed threat to security forces.......... And so on........... Where is your evidence , please ?? Notable that whybothers normally fast responses are absent............ The evidence is in the same place as the evidence that the army killed the people in the wat. Maybe its with the evidence of there being 30,000 army personnel in the vicinity. Sent from my HTC phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 How sweet, a perfect non answer........... Score 10. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro01 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) Yes, there is evidence that the red shirts burnt down central world, just not enough evidence to convict individuals. Does the fact that individual soldiers can't be identified mean that the army didn't kill anyone? Sent from my HTC phone. Now isn't that strange - there's a bit of a dichotomy there. Lets just assume for the sake of argument that you are reasoning that there is evidence that the red shirts burnt down Central World. All of the suspects have spent up to two years in prison (5 other adults were accused until freed a month or so ago with no evidence linking them to the charges). Now another two non adults have been found not guilty due to no evidence linking them to the burning of central world. Yet you reasoning is that some red shirts must be guilty because there is evidence that points to this.Well, if you and all the other posters that are so convinced of this I'm sure the courts would like to see your evidence 'cos the "evidence" they've got is plainly no good. Now heres the dichotomy. Now you use this reasoning to say that just because they don't know which soldier fired the fatal bullets you won't deny the army killed people. OK BUT NO SOLDIER HAS SPENT TWO YEARS IN JAIL BECAUSE OF ASSUMPTION. They know what company was in charge of the "roadblock" the day the taxi driver was shot. They knew who was in charge of those soldiers who managed to miss the driver of the van "straying onto a army held position" but managed to kill a bystander taxi driver and a 14 year old kid. But they didn't spend 2 years in jail. Why not? Its called Double Standards and is what pees off UDD supporters. So on that fateful day, you expected the security forces to arrest themselves as well as Red Shirts? How would that have worked then? it's not a double standard, law enforcers tend not to go around arresting themselves for enforcing the law. Edited December 19, 2012 by pedro01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro01 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Is there any evidence, any at all, to the effect that the "reds" burnt down Central Zen plaza ??? It's generally accepted but where is the evidence, where are the convictions, why were the two accused acquitted ???? ... They said they would burn it, they set it up for burning and some protesters were caught, on video, starting the fires ( ) Besides that it's absolutely incontrovertible that Red Shirts burnt down dozens of other places in their "shopping list".Philw fetish with Central World is part of his little misinformation pro-bono campaign to rewrite history in favor of the Red Shirts and their masters. Try to spin conspiracy theories around the burning of CW as a toehold to whitewashing them of all the other arson attacks they committed. Plus there were TV reports on the news showing gas bottles already prepared around both Central Word & Platinum. Not sure if those are on youtube but there was no shock to me when they did set it on fire because it was set up in advance and televised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsujin Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 AV is guilty of taking a leading role in siding with Army Chief Poajinda to force a coalition of the unwilling, that he knew would be widely despised and cause serious social unrest, but for the sake of power (and it was his only way to power) he underhandedly carried through with the undemocratic deed. He, the elite backers and the army are responsible for the consequent mayhem. He shouldn't have done it in the first place, but certainly at the first sign of serious civil unrest, for the sake of his country he should have dissolved parliament immediately. Shame on his greedy lust for power and efforts to pervert democracy for the sake of those who he and his privileged associates see as being worthy. Seriously, I don't know what planet some of you live on. Everything you've stated could apply to the current Govt and especially to the man who chooses to live outside his (supposedly) beloved country. I don't have a particular liking for any of the current Politicians, Govt's, red, yellow, green, pink shirts or whatever. They are all in it for themselves, nothing more. What I don't like to see is the constant finger pointing, he said, she said crap that wouldn't exist if people just opened their eyes and used their brains. That applies equally to the Thai's themselves and the groups of blinkered TV idiots that keep spouting "the party line". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarthAlien Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 "The protests in Bangkok were peaceful, there was no danger, except from the military." You're either on drugs or completely delusional to believe that. You fit right in with the red brigade and Mr T himself,... rogues, cheats and stoney faced liars! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AleG Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 The truly pathetic thing is that while the Red Lemmings bay for Abhisit and Suthep's blood the ones that may have pulled the triggers in contravention to the ROE are not going to be prosecuted. PTP/Thaksin wants political opposition eliminated, going after the actual people that could have acted criminally won't do, they'll focus on eliminating Abhisit to the expense of truth and real reconciliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyuk Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Preposterous Necessary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post indyuk Posted December 19, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted December 19, 2012 AV is guilty of taking a leading role in siding with Army Chief Poajinda to force a coalition of the unwilling, that he knew would be widely despised and cause serious social unrest, but for the sake of power (and it was his only way to power) he underhandedly carried through with the undemocratic deed. He, the elite backers and the army are responsible for the consequent mayhem. He shouldn't have done it in the first place, but certainly at the first sign of serious civil unrest, for the sake of his country he should have dissolved parliament immediately. Shame on his greedy lust for power and efforts to pervert democracy for the sake of those who he and his privileged associates see as being worthy. And what country do you come from? Better to ask what is between your ears, certainly not anything substantial that could be taken as considering the facts of the situation. It can only be taken that when there is civil unrest in for instance the UK then the PM should dissolve parliament. You're a clown. You are the clown Anon999. Rich Teacher is one of the few that has a clear take on the cause and effects of the issue in this thread. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackspratt Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 You think Army Generals getting involved in politics is anything other than " extremely unusal circumstances"? Perhaps that explains how Australia ended up with their current PM. Perhaps you could explain how you think it explains how Australia has its current PM - because on the face of it, your point is nonsensical. Ground control to Major Tom ............... we still await your response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshiwara Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) If you can't see the problem with a government being indebted to and led by it's own countries Armed Forces, I don't know what to say. I can see a problem with that, just as i can see a problem with a government being indebted to various unnamed people from the business sector... or to give another example, a government being indebted to an on the run overseas convicted criminal. Can you though? Generally speaking, and I am talking about the west here, unnamed people from the business sector, don't they call them lobbyists, influence governments but they don't have access to large amounts of trained armed people who use those weapons on their own people (though I'm willing to make an exception for BAe and their ilk who prefer to sell guns for other governments to use on their own and other people). So yes I can see a problem, but I know which version is the more dangerous and unpredictable - 18 coups since '32 and just to keep the status quo? This is an out of the side of the mouth justification for Arisman calling for the burning of Bangkok, armed red violence and, wait for it Thaksin as Thailand's Che Guevara (special deal: King Taksin) up against the status quo. Is this the rubbish they peddle on Red TV? Edited December 19, 2012 by yoshiwara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbamboo Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) Rich Teacher is right when he talks of the current troubles being the result of "his greedy lust for power and efforts to pervert democracy". Only it wasn't Abhisit's. Edited December 19, 2012 by bigbamboo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackspratt Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Seriously, I don't know what planet some of you live on. That would be Planet Amsterdam. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyuk Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) The truly pathetic thing is that while the Red Lemmings bay for Abhisit and Suthep's blood the ones that may have pulled the triggers in contravention to the ROE are not going to be prosecuted. PTP/Thaksin wants political opposition eliminated, going after the actual people that could have acted criminally won't do, they'll focus on eliminating Abhisit to the expense of truth and real reconciliation. You don't understand Abhisit is no longer a threat to anyone and therefore is not an issue. All that is descending upon him now are the consequences of exceeding his authority when he lacked the skill to negotiate a conclusion to the peaceful protest. Consequently he had orchestrated an exacerbation of the sit-in. Finally it seems his frustrations overwhelmed him. At that point it seems that he chose to order the armed assault on the protesters in order o relieve the pressure upon him. Edited December 19, 2012 by indyuk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 The truly pathetic thing is that while the Red Lemmings bay for Abhisit and Suthep's blood the ones that may have pulled the triggers in contravention to the ROE are not going to be prosecuted. PTP/Thaksin wants political opposition eliminated, going after the actual people that could have acted criminally won't do, they'll focus on eliminating Abhisit to the expense of truth and real reconciliation. You don't understand Abhisit is no longer a threat to anyone and therefore is not an issue. All that is descending upon him now are the consequences of exceeding his authority when he lacked the skill to negotiate a conclusion to the peaceful protest. Consequently he orchestrated an exacerbation of the sit-in. Finally his frustrations overwhelmed him. At that point it seems that he chose to order the armed assault of the protest to relieve the pressure. Don't you mean, when Abhisit had the balls not to give in to a violent mob? What would Thailand be like if the PM stood down every time a few thousand people came out to protest? As I've said before, The red shirts wanted an election. Abhisit offered them an election. They rejected it. What else did they want? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshiwara Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) I wouldn't want to suggest that your post is deliberately selective in the events depicted but I see no mention of any incidents which could have resulted in the total carnage of 700 serious injuries, 800 minor injuries and 91 deaths... They must somehow have all been killed/ injured in relation to these events as the military were only using live rounds in self defence right? There also seems to be some contradiction in the opinions that you have previously aired; three of these events are about police being targeted but you and others have made it very clear that the police worked for Thaksin and it was as a result of this that the military intervention was necessary and justified. Who then was attacking the police and why? Do you seriously think that police in any country wouldn't use live ammunition when dealing with "people" shooting back at them with guns and grenades? Well in many countries the world over the police are not actually armed with firearms so it's a bit of an impossible question to answer. Generally riot shields and batons are the order of the day during protests... but I must admit don't get your point, is that somehow intended as a response to the questions I asked? Here's a reminder... Were the police working with the Government to control the protests? If not why were they targeted and by who? If they were then why the SOE and military intervention? No hidden meaning, no assertion simple questions that are begging to be asked given the conflicting accounts and recollections of the events in 2010. Please feel free to respond to give your thoughts, I'm genuinely interested to know what people really think. A bit less name calling and finger pointing and a bit more cards on the table discussion would I think be refreshing... Worth a laugh at least. Is this a why did the police do a walkabout thread? Oh were they missing we hear the cry? Surely not! Paid off by Thaksin. As for the army Thaksin's only objection is/was that the army isn't controlled by him. If the riots to bring down the government had succeeded then there was a chance for Thaksin to stick his fingers into the autumn army leadership appointments round. He failed on that one. So now a little bit of revenge on Abhisit. All we need to remember with these Thaksin apologists is that everything is predicated to his interests. The democracy flag is thoroughly dirty when waved by these guys. So now we are beginning to make a little list: The Arisman tape doesn't exist. The police weren't paid off by Thaksin. The armed MIB nothing to do with the reds. ......keep 'em coming guys. Edited December 19, 2012 by yoshiwara 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candid Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 The truly pathetic thing is that while the Red Lemmings bay for Abhisit and Suthep's blood the ones that may have pulled the triggers in contravention to the ROE are not going to be prosecuted. PTP/Thaksin wants political opposition eliminated, going after the actual people that could have acted criminally won't do, they'll focus on eliminating Abhisit to the expense of truth and real reconciliation. You don't understand Abhisit is no longer a threat to anyone and therefore is not an issue. All that is descending upon him now are the consequences of exceeding his authority when he lacked the skill to negotiate a conclusion to the peaceful protest. Consequently he had orchestrated an exacerbation of the sit-in. Finally it seems his frustrations overwhelmed him. At that point it seems that he chose to order the armed assault on the protesters in order o relieve the pressure upon him. Supercilious crap. " he orchestrated an exacerbation of the sit in". Just how the hell did he do that after the idiots had their own way for weeks on end? At the point it seems that he chose to irder the armed assault---etc. What you mean "it seems"? Something you dreamed up or what? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshiwara Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 The truly pathetic thing is that while the Red Lemmings bay for Abhisit and Suthep's blood the ones that may have pulled the triggers in contravention to the ROE are not going to be prosecuted. PTP/Thaksin wants political opposition eliminated, going after the actual people that could have acted criminally won't do, they'll focus on eliminating Abhisit to the expense of truth and real reconciliation. You don't understand Abhisit is no longer a threat to anyone and therefore is not an issue. All that is descending upon him now are the consequences of exceeding his authority when he lacked the skill to negotiate a conclusion to the peaceful protest. Consequently he had orchestrated an exacerbation of the sit-in. Finally it seems his frustrations overwhelmed him. At that point it seems that he chose to order the armed assault on the protesters in order o relieve the pressure upon him. Supercilious crap. " he orchestrated an exacerbation of the sit in". Just how the hell did he do that after the idiots had their own way for weeks on end? At the point it seems that he chose to irder the armed assault---etc. What you mean "it seems"? Something you dreamed up or what? To be really supercilious you have to studiously ignore the existence of the Arisman tape and pretend that the red violence was only a peaceful gathering and do it with a straight face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tatsujin Posted December 19, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted December 19, 2012 Do you guys need your meds? Are your memories failing? Were you not here through the weeks of disruptions, threats, violence and chaos? Or do you just not accept reality? Thaksin initiated and orchestrated those riots. Simple as that. I'm amazed that the Govt tolerated them and allowed them to go on as long as they did. At the point an SoE went into effect, people knew things would get much worse, there had been clashes already by armed reds and the men in black. It was obviouly getting dangerous and things were escalating. They chose to stay and broke the law (over and over). They paid the price. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyuk Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 It was reliably reported that Thai Amy snipers that shot the people in the Temple. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 It was reliably reported that Thai Amy snipers that shot the people in the Temple. It was also reliably reported that the red shirts burnt down Central World (among a number of other buildings). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 The truly pathetic thing is that while the Red Lemmings bay for Abhisit and Suthep's blood the ones that may have pulled the triggers in contravention to the ROE are not going to be prosecuted. PTP/Thaksin wants political opposition eliminated, going after the actual people that could have acted criminally won't do, they'll focus on eliminating Abhisit to the expense of truth and real reconciliation. You don't understand Abhisit is no longer a threat to anyone and therefore is not an issue. All that is descending upon him now are the consequences of exceeding his authority when he lacked the skill to negotiate a conclusion to the peaceful protest. Consequently he orchestrated an exacerbation of the sit-in. Finally his frustrations overwhelmed him. At that point it seems that he chose to order the armed assault of the protest to relieve the pressure. Don't you mean, when Abhisit had the balls not to give in to a violent mob? What would Thailand be like if the PM stood down every time a few thousand people came out to protest? As I've said before, The red shirts wanted an election. Abhisit offered them an election. They rejected it. What else did they want? Nice to see you back WB, care to address the earlier points I raised ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 It was reliably reported that Thai Amy snipers that shot the people in the Temple. It was also reliably reported that the red shirts burnt down Central World (among a number of other buildings). Any evidence my dear chap ??? Like arrests, convictions etc ?? I suspect there will will soon be charges, arrests and quite probably convictions regarding the military folks who shot the people in the temple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsujin Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 It was reliably reported that Thai Amy snipers that shot the people in the Temple. And I can clearly remember seeing live on TV at one point a group of men dressed in black shooting at the army lines then running back into hiding. They were mixed in amongst "normal" protestors. Has that footage ever appeared again? Or did that get lost too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Nice to see you back WB, care to address the earlier points I raised ??? I did. You even scored it. It's interesting that you readily accept that the army shot everyone even though no individual soldier has been identified, but then deny that the red shirts burnt down Central World because no individual has been found guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candid Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 It was reliably reported that Thai Amy snipers that shot the people in the Temple. I am reliably reporting that you have either (a) forgot what happened during that torrid time ( Have a mental health problem © You weren't even here in Thailand at that time Now. How reliable is that, compared to your recent post? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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