Realestate Market

[sattahip]

BKK 90210.

As to why land prices in NaJomtien, Ban Amphur and to a lesser degree Bang Saray are increasing, there are a number of factors in my view.

First Pattaya and Naklua are tired and overcrowded, with lack of zoning a real threat to any property.

Jomtien proper is also on that track with shitty View Talay/Stalin developments overshadowing nicer properties and all those old shophouses waiting there begging to be converted to brothels, karaokes etc.

NaJomtien and south have not been spoiled before the land price has risen to preclude most shit developments.

Also Highway 7 is to be extended past the back of Pattaya to join Highway 3 (Sukhumvit) near Bang Saray. That has been reaffirmed at cabinet level last year. So surprise, surprise a large number of names recognizable from the political sector have been accumulating land down here.

It would also be most unwise to bet against a casino in this area given the alleged "ownership" of the biggest hotel in the area.

Add to all of that, that Bangkok upmarket Thais are on a buzz about Ban Amphur and Bang Saray particularly being only an hour and a half from home as the motorway improves and clean of the Pattaya "odour."

Next there are only 3 above swamp level coastal patches between Leam Chabang and the Navy base- Naklua, Pratumnak Hill and Ban Amphur. The climatic difference brought about by only 20/40 metres above sea level is substantial.

All this has led to developments such as Ban Talay and Royal Maritime selling land at above Baht45,000 per TW and new apartment tower condos selling like hot cakes at B90,000 plus psm at Sails and Ocean Portofino.

Will the price increases slow or prices retreat-surely. But it would be wise to look back to what happened during the 1997 crash. Pattaya district land sales virtually stopped, prices seem to soften only a little when nationally they plunged, and Pattaya recovered within 2/3 years and hasn't looked back since. Do remember that over the hills behind Pattaya in a huge industrial complex churning out over 1,000,000 new cars a year and unending streams af electronics, machinery and so on. Don't think the 2 Tescos, 2 Big C' and all the rest of the infrastructure is primarily here to serve the farang market, it is driven by the buoyant employment and wealth generated at places like Amata City.

As to vacancies in current estates, I guess the old rule applies "Shit doesn't sell at any price".

Well so much for my daily rant. I must get a life!

[Mobi]

In a previous life, my ex wife and I bought a house at a bargain price during the 90's crash, when everyone was going broke. This was at a very large up-market development near Bang Saen. We got a 4 bedroomed house with decent sized garden, fully furnished, at a snip. The moobaan, Samuk Thani, was quite a place, with wide internal roads, pool, sports club etc. In the late nineties this place looked a sorry site, with deserted empty houses everywhere, and communial service (security etc) barely functioning. By 2003, the place was transformed, all the houses had been re- occupied, development going on everywhere and the prices going through the roof. There's a smattering of farangs there - maybe more now - but it is mainly rich Thais, (Police generals, high brass military, rich businessmen etc) who have taken up residence there. The place is now booming, and my ex wife is sitting on a pot of gold.

The reason I mentioned the above is that I cannot see anywhere for prices to go but up, in the long term. There may be some corrections along the way - we may be in for a mini financial crash, but nothing on the scale of the previous one - but I cannot see demand falling off for land and houses such as the one I own in Mabprachan. It's a gereat area to live, and more and more farangs/rich Thais will seek places like this in the years to come. Sure there is a glut in the low end of the market (housing estates etc), but I believe, over time, they will find buyers.

That's my view - for what its worth.

Edited February 22, 2006 by Mobi D'Ark

[Rimmer]

Woooha what a good informed post.

As a postscript to that the Phoenix road between Ban Ampur and the 331 highway is having an awfull lot of money thrown at it to make it into what looks like a 4 lane highway from what used to be a country lane. They don't do that for no reason at all.

Was told that Lotus have bought a lump of land at Ban Ampur, dunno if it's correct, maybe some one knows the story.

[Jai Dee]

<snipped for brevity>

Excellent post.

Add to your list of plusses for the NaJomtien area, the proximity to the soon-to-open Suwannaphum International Airport, the rumoured closure of BKK Port and expansion of Laem Chabang Port, the expansion of the petrochemical complexes at Rayong, the increased investments in Amata City industrial complex etc........ all combine to indicate a high growth area.

[CGW]

Jai dee, mentions a good point re Laem Chabang port, as "Pattaya" has developed the port has moved to being nowhere in world rankings five years ago, now it is around # 15 on the list of busiest ports in the world.

Cheers

[Gary A]

I would be much more worried about NOT being able to legally own land than what shape the market is in. Unless you are a speculator I really don't see any difference whether it goes up or down. You pay what you can afford and as long as you are living there what difference does it make?

I overpaid (according to my friends) for a condo about two years ago. It has since gone up about 50 percent. I'm glad it is going up instead of down but since I have no intension of selling it it doesn't matter.

[Mobi]

I would be much more worried about NOT being able to legally own land than what shape the market is in. Unless you are a speculator I really don't see any difference whether it goes up or down. You pay what you can afford and as long as you are living there what difference does it make?

I overpaid (according to my friends) for a condo about two years ago. It has since gone up about 50 percent. I'm glad it is going up instead of down but since I have no intension of selling it it doesn't matter.

The legal ownership of land is a whole different subject - indeed it has its very own forum in TV and thousands of words have been written. You either go the 49% company route, the wife or trusted Thai ownership route or the 30 or 30 +30 (depending on your life expectancy) lease route. All have their proponents and detractors. Me, I have a 49% company and if things ever look like they might change, I'll transfer it to the wife and lease it back for 30 years. But I guess you know all this.

You're right about paying over the odds. It'll all come right in the end, so like you, I'm not too bothered - the price was right for me.

[Rimmer]

BKK 90210.

SNIP

Jomtien proper is also on that track with shitty View Talay/Stalin developments overshadowing nicer properties and all those old shophouses waiting there begging to be converted to brothels, karaokes etc.

BIG SNIP

Like I said great post, loved it but a little un clear what Sattahip means about sh***y View Talay/Stalin developments. I am sure he is refering to the ugly VT1 and VT2 condo blocks and not the VT residence 1 and 2 along 2nd road as in my humble opinion they have raised the tone of the entire 2nd road in Jomtien, that is until you pass them and carry on into soi rubbish tip (another topic right?) which then turns into soi 9.

He is spot on with the old shop houses, they are an eyesore and could easily develop into one big noisy entertainment area.

What may not be generally known is the widening of the "second road" at Jomtien with all the properties along there having to give up a substantial part of their land. This is due to start in 2 or 3 months, I am really looking forward to that NOT

Even more scary is the 80 story glass tower proposed for the large empty piece of land opposite VT Residence 1 and next to the Orange House. If this does go ahead what is going to do to prices in Jomtien I ask?

[Rimmer]

SNIP

You're right about paying over the odds. It'll all come right in the end, so like you, I'm not too bothered - the price was right for me.

If the piece of land is exactly what you and the misses want then it is priceless and worth paying over the odds for it. To me a view is everything and I will pay a lot more for it. And as Mr. Mobi says "It'll all come right in the end" so if it's the piece you want and it feels right when you stand in the middle of it then go for it.

[BKK90210]

I would be much more worried about NOT being able to legally own land than what shape the market is in. Unless you are a speculator I really don't see any difference whether it goes up or down. You pay what you can afford and as long as you are living there what difference does it make?

I overpaid (according to my friends) for a condo about two years ago. It has since gone up about 50 percent. I'm glad it is going up instead of down but since I have no intension of selling it it doesn't matter.

I’m only in my early 40s, I still got many sunsets to see…. of course I worry about where the market is heading. Why would I pay $3-4 for the merchandise that worth only $1.00? I always pay close attention where my hard earned money is being spent and want to go into any situations with all my eyes open and fully understand the risks involved.

I’m not a cheap Charlie or anything like that, but willing to pay for its fair market price if it’s not ridiculously too high with no reason at all. I feel the need to justify my spending with senses and reasons that were good to me….then only then I will be more than willing to pay a higher price. Let’s just say I like to get the value for my money.

So if my budget of 12mil baths for both land and house is not enough to have a seaview lot, then I’m willing to increase just a bit more but not much more than I can afford to lose. Because we will still have the home in the US to maintain, so in Thailand around 12mil baths is all we can afford to let it go. (hopefully it won't come down to this)

In addition no I don’t have a Thai wife tucking away somewhere in thailand because I’m very happy with the one I have for 20 yrs…not that young and pretty or slim but full of many other qualities I admired since our collage years….

Who knows where the price is heading but I hope there will be a break in the market soon and long enough for me to jump in….because at the current pace I can only dream of my paradise in Thailand.

OK...still keeping my eyes open for that elusive object of desire......my BangSaray seaview lot!

VIEW...VIEW....VIEW... it's everything to me and can't live without it!....

Edited February 22, 2006 by BKK90210

[wcr]

There is a monthly series being run in the Real Estate Magazine about building your own home for anyone who is interested. Written by an English guy who also happened to buy around the lake. The magazine is available at Free Khun John's, Foodland, Friendship, Best and Tops plus other locations.

For land/houses/condo's go to Thai realestate and comprehensive information.

[icecubes]

I would be much more worried about NOT being able to legally own land than what shape the market is in. Unless you are a speculator I really don't see any difference whether it goes up or down. You pay what you can afford and as long as you are living there what difference does it make?

I overpaid (according to my friends) for a condo about two years ago. It has since gone up about 50 percent. I'm glad it is going up instead of down but since I have no intension of selling it it doesn't matter.

I?m only in my early 40s, I still got many sunsets to see?. of course I worry about where the market is heading. Why would I pay $3-4 for the merchandise that worth only $1.00? I always pay close attention where my hard earned money is being spent and want to go into any situations with all my eyes open and fully understand the risks involved.

I?m not a cheap Charlie or anything like that, but willing to pay for its fair market price if it?s not ridiculously too high with no reason at all. I feel the need to justify my spending with senses and reasons that were good to me?.then only then I will be more than willing to pay a higher price. Let?s just say I like to get the value for my money.

So if my budget of 12mil baths for both land and house is not enough to have a seaview lot, then I?m willing to increase just a bit more but not much more than I can afford to lose. Because we will still have the home in the US to maintain, so in Thailand around 12mil baths is all we can afford to let it go. (hopefully it won't come down to this)

In addition no I don?t have a Thai wife tucking away somewhere in thailand because I?m very happy with the one I have for 20 yrs?not that young and pretty or slim but full of many other qualities I admired since our collage years?.

Who knows where the price is heading but I hope there will be a break in the market soon and long enough for me to jump in?.because at the current pace I can only dream of my paradise in Thailand.

OK...still keeping my eyes open for that elusive object of desire......my BangSaray seaview lot!

VIEW...VIEW....VIEW... it's everything to me and can't live without it!....

Just a little word of warning, Sea view Property lot.

Not what I would call a good choice for a place to live.

If you like a quite hassle free life.

What you going to do when people start lighting bonfires and party all night out side your place by the sea? Call the police!!!!! let alone all the other antisocial behaviour the comes with all that, Jet skis all day long. A few beer bars opening up, No thanks.

The only place with a sea view you should be considering is a condo

on a high floor. Or just stay away form the Sea view idea.

Loads of lovely places around lakes and not to far from the sea if you need it.

Sorry to point out the bad side of it but you cant police the beach.

and your nice place in paradise could turn into a living hel_l in ten years time.

This is Thailand and no laws are going to help you at 3 in the morning when

Someone brings a Karaoke machine on to the beach with there intoxicated friends.

Just put a lot of thought into any investment by the beach you may do.

Sorry to point out the pitfall, but it is a big one.

Have a nice day.

[expatgaz]

So, I've had a thought.There seem to be plenty of people in the same boat, looking for land or planning to build a house etc etc.Iam in this boat also and weighing it all up.How abt getting a group of us together say 6 or whatever and buy a large plot between us and build a small exclusive development on it.If we are thinking abt spending 10 mil or so a peice on building a house we could probably join forces and do the same on our very own gated development for 8 mil or less.Obviously a lot of meetings first to discuss but Iam sure its a good idea.We could decide on the area, Bang Saray, Phoenix etc and decide on the basic house design, better that the development matches and go from there, I'd like a plot of approx 1.5 rai.I think if we had 6 interested parties we could get a 10-12 rai plot wall it off etc and we'd all be on an earner, security would be split so no hidden costs, totally non profit making.Land is cheaper in larger amounts, building costs cheaper in large amounts etc etc, the list goes on.Any one interested ? PM me if you wish.Iam serious on this.

EPG.

[Mobi]

So, I've had a thought.There seem to be plenty of people in the same boat, looking for land or planning to build a house etc etc.Iam in this boat also and weighing it all up.How abt getting a group of us together say 6 or whatever and buy a large plot between us and build a small exclusive development on it.If we are thinking abt spending 10 mil or so a peice on building a house we could probably join forces and do the same on our very own gated development for 8 mil or less.Obviously a lot of meetings first to discuss but Iam sure its a good idea.We could decide on the area, Bang Saray, Phoenix etc and decide on the basic house design, better that the development matches and go from there, I'd like a plot of approx 1.5 rai.I think if we had 6 interested parties we could get a 10-12 rai plot wall it off etc and we'd all be on an earner, security would be split so no hidden costs, totally non profit making.Land is cheaper in larger amounts, building costs cheaper in large amounts etc etc, the list goes on.Any one interested ? PM me if you wish.Iam serious on this.

EPG.

This may or may not be relevant, but I'm pretty sure you can't fence off the beach. It has to have public access, and then you're potentially into the Icecubes nightmare scenario.

I used to stay at a lovely beach bungalow in Naklua. This was (is) private beachside land with several similar bungalows on it - private access only from the road, beautiful beach, beautiful views, beautiful sunsets. Some days however, the public would come by and spoil the idylic beach - all kinds of weirdos, both farang and Thais. Even a few LB prostitutes as dusk fell. Loads of dogs as well. Nothing in the Icecube nightmare catagory, but no reason why it shouldn't happen one day...

I'll stay near the lake. I have a beautiful view from my terrace of pool, sala, waterfall, trees, grass, flowerbeds and towering palm trees in the middle distance. Suits me , but I accept not everyone's cup of tea.

[expatgaz]

Mobi, agree, Iam not interested in beach, I'd rather have nice hillside & mountain views or ocean views.The beach as you say attracts all kinds.

EPG.

[BKK90210]

Sattahip: I forgot to say "thank you" for that great post!

Icecubes: same gratitiude again...for a very informative advice and warning!

Actually I wasn't sure before if I would be looking for a beach front or just any seaview property...but after reading your post, I better stay away from it .....thanks again for that clearification!

As for Expatgaz:

What a good idea, infact I was going to suggest the same thing after reading the post form "Mr. Rimmer" awhile back.

Aren't you the one who posted couple weeks ago about the Siam Royal View?....Sorry I wrote out my too lengthy opinion on that!

Anyway...count me in and let's get together somehow. At this point I'm real interested in your idea....around 1.5 rais each is just fine by me. But my first priority is a seaview lot, doesn't have to be exactly beachfront...but has to be at least on the elevation of 40ft or greater. I also used to design a few subdivisions/developments many moons ago....so I can bring my experiences to the table. If we can find a few more honest people with the same budget range it would be splendid indeed. Having our own guard and neighborhood covenants would be great. Anyway will talk some more later

Cooool idea!

BKK

[BKK90210]

"Mr. Rimmer & Mr. Mobi D’Ark..."

Again....sincere gratitude for your inputs and thoughts

Forever indebts to you...

Regards

BKK

[chippie]

Hi, If anyone is interested in a free consultation regarding building work then please feel free to contact me, I have a construction company and do plans etc. Thanks

[BKK90210]

Hi, If anyone is interested in a free consultation regarding building work then please feel free to contact me, I have a construction company and do plans etc. Thanks

Hey..."Chippie"

Since you owned the construction company and are the expert in this....may be you can answer a few questions below

In Thailand......

1) How much is the general cost to build a 1 story and 2 story home? 8500B-11500B..sound right?

2) Who perform the inspection for....

Building structure

Electrical

Plumbing

Septic

To make sure they were done correctly?

Which building code are you(or Thailand) using for the above....US. .British...European...or even Aussi...?

3) Typically in Thailand...What are some unexpected costs during construction?

4) Do you or Thailand use any geotecnical engineer to verify soil stability if building on the steep slope? or on bad soil location?....for the foundation design

And...

5) Are you a licensed contractor and have a legal work permit?

6) Do you or most general contractor/company carry a liability insurance?

Thanks in advance and looking forward to be hearing from you

BKK

Edited February 23, 2006 by BKK90210

[sattahip]

Dear BKK90210

If you want seafront land in an established estate at Bang Saray have you looked at Sunset Village. There is absolute seafront land there for B78,000 per TW. Google" "Sunset Beach estate" thailand"

[BKK90210]

Dear BKK90210

If you want seafront land in an established estate at Bang Saray have you looked at Sunset Village. There is absolute seafront land there for B78,000 per TW. Google" "Sunset Beach estate" thailand"

Thanks for the info

Yes, I did have a look via google.

The location is super nice....but man oh man...what can I say about the development?....

My impression about the development:

It has this too basic grid style site planning with no thought putting into the layout...not that special & exciting as you're driving through it - nothing WOW me.

As for the housing style...what can I say....It looks so outdated, 1970s post-war era architecture...we don't build like these any more in the US.

Basically it has no other pleasurable visual characters on the site at all, except just a seaview!

I have to pass on this one….I’m also looking for uniqueness and individuality

And I don't think they will allow me to put up my own architecture style.

I want mine to be a sort of modern Frank-LLoyd-Wright "Prairie"style with an island flare zen like architecture.

Thanks anyway

BKK

Edited February 23, 2006 by BKK90210

[expatgaz]

So we seem to have 3 interested parties.I reckon we're half way there.As for your question BKK yes I did ask abt SRV as its by far the best development I've seen but I still think its over priced.I was interested in the Sanee ( think thats the name) you'd be looking at 12-13 mil plus the fit out so basically no change from abt 15 mil, which I think is way over priced.The guy who owns the project is building a bloody big place on the site with all kinds of extras....Wonder how he can afford that ??

Sea front I think is impossible, I reckon the best we could hope for would be mountains and seaview, which would suit me.House design and development layout would be the most important thing.

EPG

[monty]

Bkk90210,

I'm not sure yoy're going to get much answers from Chippie

However, I can answer some of them for you...

1) How much is the general cost to build a 1 story and 2 story home? 8500B-11500B..sound right?

Sounds about right...

2) Who perform the inspection for....

Building structure

Electrical

Plumbing

Septic

Nobody... In some districts the building department (who issued the building permit) might come out a few times to check you're following the approved plan. Anyhow, any discrepancies can quickly be ignored through a sizable "gift"...

If you are lucky and you have a reputable constructor, he will be the one who checks everything is up to (his) standards...

3) Typically in Thailand...What are some unexpected costs during construction?

Main one is the constructor disapearing with your deposit and leaving an unfinished job...

More of a problem is not following the time schedual. Not always the constructor's fault, the labourers have an annoying habit to dissapear for a few weeks when the weather decides it's time to go harvest rice or whatever!

Which building code are you(or Thailand) using for the above....US. .British...European...or even Aussi...?

Huh? Go ask the architect... It is him who has to draw plans and sign them of, so the district can approve them and issue a building permit. Just take an architect with friends at the district so everything will get approved, might cost a couple of thousand extra though. Or trow in a nice digital camera...

6) Do you or most general contractor/company carry a liability insurance?

??? No such thing in Thailand, apart maybe from the very big constructors like ItalThai...

Something goes wrong, they just "flee the scene". Even with bigger company's when a crane topples over and damages property, or even worse, causing injuries or death, the operater will dissapear, and the company owner will offer some compensation to the damaged parties, so the judge will be lenient in sentencing... Or the company will go bust and the owner will just start under a different company name...

Forget about warranty, most company's dissapear after the constrution is finished

In short, it's definately better to go with a local company, which has been around a long time and has a proven track record, because the Thai law sure ain't gonna protect you...

It'll cost extra, but it sure is good when you have a place to go to and complain, or just sit together to discuss possibilities, prices etc... Probably also worth the premium to go with a foreign managed company, since Quality Control is an unknown term to Thai people.

ItalThai (100% Thai owned) pays huge (like 20 times what a Thai would earn) salaries to farang supervisers because they know the money is well spent...

I would think the level of quality/management etc only will come close to Western standards in company's operating in Bangkok. Level of government control is higher, they are more likely to be inspected, it'll be more difficult to hide mistake/errors through "gifts" etc...

Of course, we're talking about company's building mansions valued more in the region of 1 million US$... Or condo's going for between 60K and 100K per square meter....

In the provinces we are more dealing with mom and pop construction companies...

[chippie]

Hi again, sorry I haven't been back, i've been working.

The prices are about right but we start at 9000bht.

Yes you can get the checks done by the building department.

You are very welcome to visit me where I live, meet my partner (thai), look at plans we have done, look at a house we have finished, talk to ex-clients.

Thanks.

[Rimmer]

So here you are, sea views for 500 baht a TW. Must be correct I cut it out of this month PT magazine. Yea right!!

[Noel]

So here you are, sea views for 500 baht a TW. Must be correct I cut it out of this month PT magazine. Yea right!!

A truly 'majestic' view too!

[Mobi]

Bkk90210,

I'm not sure yoy're going to get much answers from Chippie

However, I can answer some of them for you...

.....................In the provinces we are more dealing with mom and pop construction companies...

I think Monty has coevered all the points very well and my recent building experience can verify all that he has said.

The only thing I would add, is to make sure you tie down everything that is included in the building costs. I had a farang builder doing the job for 10k per sq mtr and me, being a little naive, and a trusting sort as far as farangs went, came a little unstuck. Half way through the build I asked him to calarify what was excluded from the 10K. he gave me a list, but then still charged me for stuff that wasn't on the list - he even charged me for the guttering. I finally blew my top, whereupon he offered to go 50/50, and then in the next breath he charged me 15k to get a phone line in, which I now know was a load of b...s. Although labour was free for the fit-out, he bought a lot of the suff from a fund I provided, and I think I got a bit stiched up there as well, in spite of the supporting bills he provided.

In the end I think the overall quality of workmanship was is good as you're going to get outside Bangkok, and I am very pleased with the result.

Warranties. Well, naturally there were a lot of teething problems when I first moved in, (he didn't test anything - kitchen sinks, appliances, bathrooms, showers, swimming pool - you name it, nothing worked properly or leaked) and by and large they have now been taken care of. However, I think he brought his bad habits from England, and as time went on he made it more and more of a hassle to get things fixed, and I would have to ask him several times, and the artisans/builders would constantly fail to appear on the promised day/time. I have finally given up on him, and get things done with new people who I have control over. The costs are minimal, and there is less stress.

That's my build story - probably sounds worse than it was. I do have a magnificent home now so I'm not too bitter and twisted.

[banchang]

Interesting to hear from Sattahip about the extension of the highway 7. I have often wondered what was the plan with this road as it carries on past the last junction with the 36. If it is to continue to the ban saray area it has to go either east or west of the lake, is anyone aware of the route? has the land been aquired or is someone building there own bit of paradise only to have it flattend in a couple of years!

[CGW]

This was the answer on another site some time ago, clear as mud

I solved your question about closed Highway 7 at Pattaya. If you see the motorway map from the Highway Department website you can see Highway 7 that connects from the Bangkok-Chonburi Motorway. Actually the Motorway and Highway 7 are the same line and some parts of Highway 36 are changed to Highway 7 because of the Highway Department has a plan to do the project little by little. In the near future Highway 7 will change to be a motorway (tollway) and Highway 7 is being prepared to be a motorway project. This closed road is waiting for the motorway to be extended to Rayong (completed in 2015)

[banchang]

but the 36 goes straight to Rayong???