How Legitimate Is The History Of Your Chanote Land Title Deed.

[up2you2]

A lawyer in one of the weekly Phuket publications has stated:

So proper examination of a title document is only the first step in a multi-step investigation process informed by skilled legal competency.

What cannot be found through merely reviewing the title document is the title history or how the title was upgraded to its current status.

This investigation has to be done at the land office by someone with particular competence and knowledge on what to look for and what to do if something unexpected is found. The investigation is conducted by reviewing the entire relevant title file(s) of the land plot.

So who has carried out such an in depth pedantic investigation.

How easy was it to get access to all of these land office files, how long did it take, and how much were you charged?

[thaipak]

AFAIK you can use the land deed number which is printed on every land deed document to check the data in any land registeration office computer. As it is online you can check it anywhere in Thailand.

[trogers]

Why would a foreigner wish to look into the history of the chanote land title deed? Is he permitted by law to buy and own land?

Seems to be the onus of the developer to undertake this task.

Edited January 1, 2013 by trogers

[ThaiRich]

Why would a foreigner wish to look into the history of the chanote land title deed? Is he permitted by law permitted to buy and own land?

Perhaps he wants to use his money to buy the land in his wife's name.

[trogers]

Why would a foreigner wish to look into the history of the chanote land title deed? Is he permitted by law permitted to buy and own land?

Perhaps he wants to use his money to buy the land in his wife's name.

Then I wonder which carries a higher risk - a bad title or a bad relationship...

[PattayaPhom]

Usual lawyer talk so you pay them a fortune to do a 5 minute job

[ThaiRich]

Why would a foreigner wish to look into the history of the chanote land title deed? Is he permitted by law permitted to buy and own land?

Perhaps he wants to use his money to buy the land in his wife's name.

Then I wonder which carries a higher risk - a bad title or a bad relationship...

True....True... But some women can very convincing and some men can be very foolish.....

[Khun Jean]

Lawyers........ mostly not needed, including this 'multi-step' investigation.

Multi step in this case means: step 1: calling someone in the land office (probably a 'friend' of this lawyer) asking the history of the landtitle, step 2: calling you to relay that message, step 3: charge you money for it. Optional step 2a, when something fishy found, call owner for a fee to stay quiet about the fish information.

I would suggest always be the first person to get information. Through a lawyer it is second hand information and therefore of less value and correctness.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Khun Jean

[thaiwanderer]

Healthy cynicism of lawyers, their fees and value for money but in a country that's likely more corrupt than your home and where you have far less legal rights yet checks that may be seen as basic in your home country get thrown out with the bathwater?

It's one thing to have carried out full due dilligence (including but not limited to the full history of the title) and to then asses the risk and your comfort with it against the money invested and or desire to retain your property before buying and at a particular price,

and quite another to fail to carry that out and find out later when you've pulled the trigger on relatively little information.

As an english language board can assume many here who might be interested in these issues may end up with a structure attempting to approximate their use and control of land with perhaps the hope of exiting with some money or passing on to heirs etc - to varying degrees of strength. Essentially these are houses of cards of varying degrees of strength but houses of cards nonetheless. Why then decide to not even check whether you are building them on the sand of poor title? (And even if Thai or for a Thai spouse to hold why decide not to check whetehr you are building their non-card house on sand anyway?).

The starting point is that no liability arises from the mistake (deliberate or honest) of a government official.

So Land X has a chanote, you, your thai spouse and or thai lawyer has checked with the land office and it is indeed registreted as chanote, relates to the exact parcel of land you think it does, the seller is the owner and there is no mortgage etc.. However without full due dilligence you won't know whether that chanote was correctly issued and therefore whether its capable of being rescinded at a later date.

Full due dilligence should also look into zoning and whether what you want to built / is already there is legal and will be allowed to stay.

It should also confirm that the building permit is genuine and fit for purpose.

Have personally seen chanotes issued for forestry and other land that plainly would not stand up to any sort of challenge, as well as chanotes being issued where the history of the land simply doesn't support a chanote being issued for Khun Y as well as properties (at the very highest end) built illegally.

On specific instances we might then be in a discussion of how likely any problems may be (though a national crackdown is never needed to affect one property - disgruntled neighbour, indebted / soon retiring local official etc is enough) but for an individual and their own money to simply ignore the issue of looking into the sandyness of their legal foundations isn't entirely prudent.

If we're not interested in even considering issues such as these then this subforum should perhaps be limited to issues relating to squatting only.

If we might be interested, then how much is reasonable for a lawyer to provide this service?

If you read, write and speak fluent Thai, have a good grasp on how and why titles should be upgraded, zoning and building permits amongst other things and have a healthy rapport with the relevant local officals then I'm sure you'll be fine in obtaining, checking and interpreting all the information.

If not, how much is it worth?

[trogers]

Healthy cynicism of lawyers, their fees and value for money but in a country that's likely more corrupt than your home and where you have far less legal rights yet checks that may be seen as basic in your home country get thrown out with the bathwater?

It's one thing to have carried out full due dilligence (including but not limited to the full history of the title) and to then asses the risk and your comfort with it against the money invested and or desire to retain your property before buying and at a particular price,

and quite another to fail to carry that out and find out later when you've pulled the trigger on relatively little information.

As an english language board can assume many here who might be interested in these issues may end up with a structure attempting to approximate their use and control of land with perhaps the hope of exiting with some money or passing on to heirs etc - to varying degrees of strength. Essentially these are houses of cards of varying degrees of strength but houses of cards nonetheless. Why then decide to not even check whether you are building them on the sand of poor title? (And even if Thai or for a Thai spouse to hold why decide not to check whetehr you are building their non-card house on sand anyway?).

The starting point is that no liability arises from the mistake (deliberate or honest) of a government official.

So Land X has a chanote, you, your thai spouse and or thai lawyer has checked with the land office and it is indeed registreted as chanote, relates to the exact parcel of land you think it does, the seller is the owner and there is no mortgage etc.. However without full due dilligence you won't know whether that chanote was correctly issued and therefore whether its capable of being rescinded at a later date.

Full due dilligence should also look into zoning and whether what you want to built / is already there is legal and will be allowed to stay.

It should also confirm that the building permit is genuine and fit for purpose.

Have personally seen chanotes issued for forestry and other land that plainly would not stand up to any sort of challenge, as well as chanotes being issued where the history of the land simply doesn't support a chanote being issued for Khun Y as well as properties (at the very highest end) built illegally.

On specific instances we might then be in a discussion of how likely any problems may be (though a national crackdown is never needed to affect one property - disgruntled neighbour, indebted / soon retiring local official etc is enough) but for an individual and their own money to simply ignore the issue of looking into the sandyness of their legal foundations isn't entirely prudent.

If we're not interested in even considering issues such as these then this subforum should perhaps be limited to issues relating to squatting only.

If we might be interested, then how much is reasonable for a lawyer to provide this service?

If you read, write and speak fluent Thai, have a good grasp on how and why titles should be upgraded, zoning and building permits amongst other things and have a healthy rapport with the relevant local officals then I'm sure you'll be fine in obtaining, checking and interpreting all the information.

If not, how much is it worth?

The first and most important point to bear in mind when parting your money is that if the deal is too good to be true, it usually is. If you want to acquire land (under the excuse of giving it to spouse or kid), choose land that have been given to the seller by grandfather to father to him or her, thus showning non-problematic title for many decades. Why go for land that has ownership papers created in the not too distant past? Do not go where even locals fear to tread.

Personally, I only put my money in condos, where the written law allows me ownership over the title. The wife and kids can inherit them should they still be by my side in my final years.

[Khun Jean]

Another good source for information is people who live around the land that is for sale.

Few years ago we saw a piece of land for sale, and the price was good.

No problems with landpapers, as it was 'in the family' for a long time.

However neighbors told a different story. 'mia nois' living in the old house on the land, police, last owner got shot by his wife, etc.

So practically a 'mia noi' was occupying the house and land and 'the wife' was in jail for murder. Other family members trying to get the 'mia noi' out, but were not successful.

This was in a nice looking area, but that info was enough to run not walk away from that piece of land.

Best part of this anecdote, this was a piece of land sold by the bank through auction.

[beenitseenitdoneit]

Healthy cynicism of lawyers, their fees and value for money but in a country that's likely more corrupt than your home and where you have far less legal rights yet checks that may be seen as basic in your home country get thrown out with the bathwater?

It's one thing to have carried out full due dilligence (including but not limited to the full history of the title) and to then asses the risk and your comfort with it against the money invested and or desire to retain your property before buying and at a particular price,

and quite another to fail to carry that out and find out later when you've pulled the trigger on relatively little information.

As an english language board can assume many here who might be interested in these issues may end up with a structure attempting to approximate their use and control of land with perhaps the hope of exiting with some money or passing on to heirs etc - to varying degrees of strength. Essentially these are houses of cards of varying degrees of strength but houses of cards nonetheless. Why then decide to not even check whether you are building them on the sand of poor title? (And even if Thai or for a Thai spouse to hold why decide not to check whetehr you are building their non-card house on sand anyway?).

The starting point is that no liability arises from the mistake (deliberate or honest) of a government official.

So Land X has a chanote, you, your thai spouse and or thai lawyer has checked with the land office and it is indeed registreted as chanote, relates to the exact parcel of land you think it does, the seller is the owner and there is no mortgage etc.. However without full due dilligence you won't know whether that chanote was correctly issued and therefore whether its capable of being rescinded at a later date.

Full due dilligence should also look into zoning and whether what you want to built / is already there is legal and will be allowed to stay.

It should also confirm that the building permit is genuine and fit for purpose.

Have personally seen chanotes issued for forestry and other land that plainly would not stand up to any sort of challenge, as well as chanotes being issued where the history of the land simply doesn't support a chanote being issued for Khun Y as well as properties (at the very highest end) built illegally.

On specific instances we might then be in a discussion of how likely any problems may be (though a national crackdown is never needed to affect one property - disgruntled neighbour, indebted / soon retiring local official etc is enough) but for an individual and their own money to simply ignore the issue of looking into the sandyness of their legal foundations isn't entirely prudent.

If we're not interested in even considering issues such as these then this subforum should perhaps be limited to issues relating to squatting only.

If we might be interested, then how much is reasonable for a lawyer to provide this service?

If you read, write and speak fluent Thai, have a good grasp on how and why titles should be upgraded, zoning and building permits amongst other things and have a healthy rapport with the relevant local officals then I'm sure you'll be fine in obtaining, checking and interpreting all the information.

If not, how much is it worth?

First of all I would like to thank everyone who has responded to my post.

I am a bit taken aback that nobody has either done this suggestion, an investigation of the entire relevant title file(s) of a particular land plot, nor employed others to do this on their behalf.

Once my son of two and a half is of age, maybe he can do this for me in the years to come.

[thaiwanderer]

I wouldn't necessarily take the responses here as representative of practical or best practice.