Singaporean Suffering The Same Fate As Lee Chestnutt?: Thailand

[webfact]

Singaporean suffering the same fate as Lee Chestnutt?

Jaffrey Maharan

BANGKOK: -- Jaffrey Maharan, a Singaporean businessman, has reportedly been stuck in Thailand for three years following a legal dispute in which his ex-landlord accused him of stealing furniture and causing damage to a rental property.

Though Maharan thought he had been recently cleared to leave the Kingdom, when his Thai lawyer went to pick up his travel documents, the court revealed that the landlord had appealed once more, forcing Maharan to stay in Thailand for months to come.

Maharan’s legal troubles began in 2009, when he and a business partner were accused of stealing furniture and causing damage to a house they were renting.

Though a court declared [more...]

-- COCONUTS Bangkok 2013-01-22

related topic:

Embattled Brit Lee Chestnutt Forced To Stay In Thailand

[wasanajones]

Who doesn't believe that this story is all about abuse of power and undue influence in an attempt to extort money from foreigners?

Anyone that says 'you should have just paid the money' is part of the problem. Isn't it time that Thailand, and the people living here, took responsibility for unethical (and illegal) behavior?

I believe the vast majority of Thai people would be outraged and ashamed by this. But will they hear the story, will the Thai media participate in cleaning up this type of thing?

[Para]

There is an active 10 page thread on this.....

Embattled Brit Lee Chestnutt Forced To Stay In Thailand

[noitom]

Stay aware from any business arrangement with Thais. Buyer beware!

[Cloggie]

Looks like he can't do a visa run anymore and lots of people on this list want that as well so you know what to do now!

[Locationthailand]

Read the Coconut article and you will see it appears the landlord is common to Lee Chestnutt. And it appears the business competition or whatever the link may have this Thai 'landlord' just causing deliberate mischief. What recourse do either have? Nothing - Farang have no rights in Thailand so don't kid yourselves.

[OneZero]

Read the Coconut article and you will see it appears the landlord is common to Lee Chestnutt. And it appears the business competition or whatever the link may have this Thai 'landlord' just causing deliberate mischief. What recourse do either have? Nothing - Farang have no rights in Thailand so don't kid yourselves.

Sorry if I hit the "Unlike" button by mistake. I just meant to quote locationthailand.

My only comment is amazement if there is a common landlord and there is no way around his harrassment. Is it verifiable, it's the same landlord?

[MunterHunter]

Read the Coconut article and you will see it appears the landlord is common to Lee Chestnutt. And it appears the business competition or whatever the link may have this Thai 'landlord' just causing deliberate mischief. What recourse do either have? Nothing - Farang have no rights in Thailand so don't kid yourselves.

Sorry if I hit the "Unlike" button by mistake. I just meant to quote locationthailand.

My only comment is amazement if there is a common landlord and there is no way around his harrassment. Is it verifiable, it's the same landlord?

Its not Lee Chestnut's boyfriend is it? If it is then this story is a bit of a non-starter.

[Thai at Heart]

Read the Coconut article and you will see it appears the landlord is common to Lee Chestnutt. And it appears the business competition or whatever the link may have this Thai 'landlord' just causing deliberate mischief. What recourse do either have? Nothing - Farang have no rights in Thailand so don't kid yourselves.

Sorry if I hit the "Unlike" button by mistake. I just meant to quote locationthailand.

My only comment is amazement if there is a common landlord and there is no way around his harrassment. Is it verifiable, it's the same landlord?

Appears that this guy and Mr. Chestnutt are connected, whether it is the same landlord, not yet proven. What odds, it is the same landlord though?

[SparklingCascades]

Am not sure why both Lee & Maharan would not try to resolve this outside of the lengthy & rigid Thai legal system. There are ways in which people - even landlords - can be persuaded to change their world view; sometimes in a hurry. Have seen such informal networks work quite effectively in local business.

[davejones]

I could be wrong but this sounds like the same case as the British guy. It seems that the landlords is suing both because they both rented the condo together. So it's one case not two. No evidence that the landlord has done this to any other tenants, so seems like just a normal dispute that has got out of control. Happens in all countries. These kinds of disputes can drag on for over 10 years in the UK. The only problem for this guys is that they are stuck in Thailand. The same can happen in other countries, so it's nothing against farangs; it's just the way the legal system works. Probably the legal system needs to be speeded up, but i doubt that will happen any time soon. Legal systems are clogged up in most countries.

This is really a non-story. Landlord and tenant should get together and work something out. It's not all about being right. If both think they are right, this could drag on for a few more years. Sometimes a little compromise is needed.

[hanuman2543]

Stories like this would not happen, if the looser of the court battle have to compensate the other side for all money spend in connection with the court battle. The whole system is at fault and designed to be misused by people who know all loopholes. I hope that they will stand their ground. In the end they will win and the landlord will suffer a massive loss of face. Som nam na

[Thai at Heart]

Stories like this would not happen, if the looser of the court battle have to compensate the other side for all money spend in connection with the court battle. The whole system is at fault and designed to be misused by people who know all loopholes. I hope that they will stand their ground. In the end they will win and the landlord will suffer a massive loss of face. Som nam na

The accuser loses virtually nothing.

It definitely is not a well functioning system.

[SLESQ]

Being a 12+ year retired resident, having suffered under two unscrupulous landlords, and having hired my own two legal counsel who both times suggested that I pay the respective landlord something to avoid litigation, I had documents prepared and sent to the landlords and their counsel: a draft-counter-suit (to be filed the day either of them filed their claim against me) alleging their fraud, harassment, defamation, and a few other "crimes" that where I come from are called intentional and unintentional "torts." What ever damage the landlords claimed from me, I quadrupled that as my claim against them.

Before I take possession of any premises, I make a full and complete photo history of each room,all elements in every room, and the same for the exterior and grounds. The day I move in I send the landlord a letter detailing every observed element of damage to the premises. They day I move out, I again make a photographic history of the condition of each room and every element in and out of the house. I also keep notes and records during my tenancy of all improvements and repairs I've made to the premises.

As an aside, I now have a Special Reciprocal 30 year lease. With each rent payment I send a report of improvements & repairs I made, and new damages that the landlord is responsible to repair. If the landlord fails or refuses to repair, I offer to do the repairs on my own and then get her permission to deduct that from the next rent payment. Not once in the past 5 years have I been refused that opportunity.

When the former landlords made their outrageous claims, my draft counter-claims stated clearly that I had complete photo histories of the homes before and after my possession. My draft counter-claims attached only a few of the more outrageous pre-possession photos to counter their claim against me. For example, when the claim was that there were scratched floors after my three year's possession I attached images of pre-possession broken and cracked marble tiles. Where a claim was for mildew damage behind paintings, I showed worse damage pre-possesison and bills I paid for those repairs. When claim was made for a cracked mirror, I showed photos and letters about earthquake caused foundation and wall cracks the landlord refused to repair.

This is not just tit-for-tat, but in advance I am prepared to drop 500 kg bombs should any try to toss firecrackers.

Oh, both landlords chose to chase others and no suits or counter-claims were ever filed.

The lack of scruples goes to the greed of many, not alone in Thailand. But clearly as well, the rule of law here is in effect "foreign buyer/renter beware." Sadly, while some international visitors are cautious in our home nations, too many become lulled here by sweet-talk, the weather, and (at least in Chiang Mai) many smiles.

​I am happy to help any who need more guidance. Serious inquiries only, please. I hope you know how to reach me as I rarely read these pages....

[SparklingCascades]

Is Thailand getting too much like America......where people are either sued or shot and sometimes both.

[CCFC1]

Stay aware from any business arrangement with Thais. Buyer beware!

The above is good advice. And one i have given to many of my friends that have embraced the Thai experience. More ignored it than heeded. The(thais) rip each other off too, it's not a thing reserved for foreigners alone, but i guess they are an easier target. Thieves and Liars is how they were described to me years ago.

CCFC1

[Locationthailand]

Am not sure why both Lee & Maharan would not try to resolve this outside of the lengthy & rigid Thai legal system. There are ways in which people - even landlords - can be persuaded to change their world view; sometimes in a hurry. Have seen such informal networks work quite effectively in local business.

... A motorbike drive by???

[evanson]

Read the Coconut article and you will see it appears the landlord is common to Lee Chestnutt. And it appears the business competition or whatever the link may have this Thai 'landlord' just causing deliberate mischief. What recourse do either have? Nothing - Farang have no rights in Thailand so don't kid yourselves.

Farang most certainly do have rights in Thailand, the problem is being prepared to jump through all the same hoops the Thais do having to traverse the insane amount of red tap and waiting time. Three years is about average.

The only difference in these two particular cases is the defendants are farang, who are seen as (1) stupid and (2) rich. they wouldn't bother trying this particular scam on a Thai.

Edited January 22, 2013 by evanson

[evanson]

Stories like this would not happen, if the looser of the court battle have to compensate the other side for all money spend in connection with the court battle. The whole system is at fault and designed to be misused by people who know all loopholes. I hope that they will stand their ground. In the end they will win and the landlord will suffer a massive loss of face. Som nam na

The accuser loses virtually nothing.

It definitely is not a well functioning system.

To file a civil suit the plaintiff must pay a percentage of that amount which is being sued for as compensation. I'm guessing this is to deter false claims in the hope of winning, however unlikely the plaintiff's case might be. However, in these cases I would imagine the amount of compensation being sued for is quite small and the landlord is just being bloodyminded.

[LarryBird]

I could be wrong but this sounds like the same case as the British guy. It seems that the landlords is suing both because they both rented the condo together. So it's one case not two. No evidence that the landlord has done this to any other tenants, so seems like just a normal dispute that has got out of control. Happens in all countries. These kinds of disputes can drag on for over 10 years in the UK. The only problem for this guys is that they are stuck in Thailand. The same can happen in other countries, so it's nothing against farangs; it's just the way the legal system works. Probably the legal system needs to be speeded up, but i doubt that will happen any time soon. Legal systems are clogged up in most countries.

This is really a non-story. Landlord and tenant should get together and work something out. It's not all about being right. If both think they are right, this could drag on for a few more years. Sometimes a little compromise is needed.

Dude, honestly.. How many learning disabilities do you have?

[Asiantravel]

I could be wrong but this sounds like the same case as the British guy. It seems that the landlords is suing both because they both rented the condo together. So it's one case not two. No evidence that the landlord has done this to any other tenants, so seems like just a normal dispute that has got out of control. Happens in all countries. These kinds of disputes can drag on for over 10 years in the UK. The only problem for this guys is that they are stuck in Thailand. The same can happen in other countries, so it's nothing against farangs; it's just the way the legal system works. Probably the legal system needs to be speeded up, but i doubt that will happen any time soon. Legal systems are clogged up in most countries.

This is really a non-story. Landlord and tenant should get together and work something out. It's not all about being right. If both think they are right, this could drag on for a few more years. Sometimes a little compromise is needed.

Dude, honestly.. How many learning disabilities do you have?

A mind as sharp as a rapier for sure

Larry doesn't this thread remind you of groundhog day?

All we need now is for “ Nisa “ to appear to start regurgitating the same stuff over again

[Terry Newman]

Am not sure why both Lee & Maharan would not try to resolve this outside of the lengthy & rigid Thai legal system. There are ways in which people - even landlords - can be persuaded to change their world view; sometimes in a hurry. Have seen such informal networks work quite effectively in local business.

I am surprised this git landlord didn't get a dose of Thai style back.

[unanimosity]

Who doesn't believe that this story is all about abuse of power and undue influence in an attempt to extort money from foreigners?

Anyone that says 'you should have just paid the money' is part of the problem. Isn't it time that Thailand, and the people living here, took responsibility for unethical (and illegal) behavior?

I believe the vast majority of Thai people would be outraged and ashamed by this. But will they hear the story, will the Thai media participate in cleaning up this type of thing?

It is delusional to think Thai people would be outraged and ashamed by this. It would just give them ideas like "maybe I could do that." The media ignore it because it isn't of interest. If Thai people would be outraged and ashamed, then it would be news. Then of course you have the defamation issue where the truth be damned, just don't report anyting other than praise for Thai citizens.

[unanimosity]

Stay aware from any business arrangement with Thais. Buyer beware!

The above is good advice. And one i have given to many of my friends that have embraced the Thai experience. More ignored it than heeded. The(thais) rip each other off too, it's not a thing reserved for foreigners alone, but i guess they are an easier target. Thieves and Liars is how they were described to me years ago.

CCFC1

If you learn only one thing about Thailand, learn that a signed contract is just a pause in the negotiation.

[unanimosity]

Being a 12+ year retired resident, having suffered under two unscrupulous landlords, and having hired my own two legal counsel who both times suggested that I pay the respective landlord something to avoid litigation, I had documents prepared and sent to the landlords and their counsel: a draft-counter-suit (to be filed the day either of them filed their claim against me) alleging their fraud, harassment, defamation, and a few other "crimes" that where I come from are called intentional and unintentional "torts." What ever damage the landlords claimed from me, I quadrupled that as my claim against them.

Before I take possession of any premises, I make a full and complete photo history of each room,all elements in every room, and the same for the exterior and grounds. The day I move in I send the landlord a letter detailing every observed element of damage to the premises. They day I move out, I again make a photographic history of the condition of each room and every element in and out of the house. I also keep notes and records during my tenancy of all improvements and repairs I've made to the premises.

As an aside, I now have a Special Reciprocal 30 year lease. With each rent payment I send a report of improvements & repairs I made, and new damages that the landlord is responsible to repair. If the landlord fails or refuses to repair, I offer to do the repairs on my own and then get her permission to deduct that from the next rent payment. Not once in the past 5 years have I been refused that opportunity.

When the former landlords made their outrageous claims, my draft counter-claims stated clearly that I had complete photo histories of the homes before and after my possession. My draft counter-claims attached only a few of the more outrageous pre-possession photos to counter their claim against me. For example, when the claim was that there were scratched floors after my three year's possession I attached images of pre-possession broken and cracked marble tiles. Where a claim was for mildew damage behind paintings, I showed worse damage pre-possesison and bills I paid for those repairs. When claim was made for a cracked mirror, I showed photos and letters about earthquake caused foundation and wall cracks the landlord refused to repair.

This is not just tit-for-tat, but in advance I am prepared to drop 500 kg bombs should any try to toss firecrackers.

Oh, both landlords chose to chase others and no suits or counter-claims were ever filed.

The lack of scruples goes to the greed of many, not alone in Thailand. But clearly as well, the rule of law here is in effect "foreign buyer/renter beware." Sadly, while some international visitors are cautious in our home nations, too many become lulled here by sweet-talk, the weather, and (at least in Chiang Mai) many smiles.

​I am happy to help any who need more guidance. Serious inquiries only, please. I hope you know how to reach me as I rarely read these pages....

My goodness, why go to all the trouble? Just have a GF sign the rental/lease docs.

[unanimosity]

Is Thailand getting too much like America......where people are either sued or shot and sometimes both.

In America, certainly in California, the law falls on the side of the tenant rather than the landlord. It takes months and months of filings and flawless service to arrive at a judgment to evict a renter.

[Loptr]

He could always resolve the matter in the old fashion way.

[dighambara]

Read the Coconut article and you will see it appears the landlord is common to Lee Chestnutt. And it appears the business competition or whatever the link may have this Thai 'landlord' just causing deliberate mischief. What recourse do either have? Nothing - Farang have no rights in Thailand so don't kid yourselves.

Farang most certainly do have rights in Thailand, the problem is being prepared to jump through all the same hoops the Thais do having to traverse the insane amount of red tap and waiting time. Three years is about average.

The only difference in these two particular cases is the defendants are farang, who are seen as (1) stupid and (2) rich. they wouldn't bother trying this particular scam on a Thai.

Meanwhile, both Farangs have a situation beyond their control which forces them to stay in Thailand - does this short circuit Thai Immigration..??

[A_Traveller]

Confused.

Why is this a separate thread?* Anyone taking more than a passing glance at the background will come across a BBC interview on December 3 2012 with Mr. Chestnutt's parents who mention [as well as being in some family photos] about, quote "his partner" Jaffrey who was also unable to visit his family. Equally there is a telephone interview therein in which Mr. Chestnutt clearly says "we" in reference to those facing charges in court the next day.

It was suggested that the original rental was IIRC two houses in a compound by a poster in the other thread.

By the by, would a Thai view a Singaporean as a falang?

It is still to be hoped that the Supreme Court will take the view that the claimant was/is well aware of legal timing and that an intentional late issuance will be deemed an abuse of process.

Regards

* In fairness the originating Straits Times article is clearly a "beware of foreign law" perspective rather than "news only happens if a Singaporean is involved" .

[Arkady]

Who doesn't believe that this story is all about abuse of power and undue influence in an attempt to extort money from foreigners?

Anyone that says 'you should have just paid the money' is part of the problem. Isn't it time that Thailand, and the people living here, took responsibility for unethical (and illegal) behavior?

I believe the vast majority of Thai people would be outraged and ashamed by this. But will they hear the story, will the Thai media participate in cleaning up this type of thing?

If the Thai public do hear the story, it will be from the mouth of the plaintiff explaining how he has been virtually bankrupted by the two foreign criminals and everyone will believe him.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Arkady