Parse Please

[Ratsima]

The other day my wife sent me the following text message:

ให้โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้หรือเปล่า

I understand the meaning only from prior context, but reading it I have no idea why I understand what it means.

Can someone please parse the sentence and explain why it means what it does?

I'm especially interested in the two uses of ให้

TIA

[rgs2001uk]

ให้โทรศัพท์จองห้องพัก use the phone to book the hotel.

ให้ means to let cause or give to do something, eg use.

ให้หรือเปล่า have you done it or not? or have you used it, dont know if she means have you done this before or have you made the booking?

[Mole]

(จะ)ให้(ฉัน)โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้(คุณ)หรือเปล่า

Do you want me to call and book the hotel room for(to) you?

ให้ here just means "to" or "for".

It can also mean "give" as in give something to somebody.

Thai tends to drop nouns, so for somebody who's unused to this, things can be confusing.

But often, this is done intentionally because sometimes it may be difficult to choose exactly which noun to use regarding seniority and level of politeness.

So without nouns a sentence can become neutral.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Mole

[Ratsima]

Thank you, Mole. Very interesting.

I don't use and am unable to understand spoken Thai, so I'm pretty much limited to what I read. The lack of nouns can be really confusing; especially when you are presented with a sentence in isolation like this.

[krisb]

Shes asking if you want her to book the hotel room big boy

Why shes asking you in Thai if she knows you mai kow jai I dont know.

[Ratsima]

Shes asking if you want her to book the hotel room big boy

Why shes asking you in Thai if she knows you mai kow jai I dont know.

"Parse" doesn't mean "translate".

I understand what the sentence means, I just don't understand how you get there, structurally; especially with all the missing nouns/pronouns.

And, I suppose she's asking in Thai because she knows that I know how to read Thai, I just can't use or understand spoken Thai.

[Richard W]

I understand what the sentence means, I just don't understand how you get there, structurally; especially with all the missing nouns/pronouns.

(จะ)ให้(ฉัน)โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้(คุณ)หรือเปล่า

Do you want me to call and book the hotel room for(to) you?

Perhaps one could expand Mole's expansion to:

(คุณ)(จะ)ให้(ฉัน)โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้(คุณ)หรือเปล่า

The idiomatic uses of ให้ 'give' not only include uses we translate as 'to' and 'for', but also the meanings 'make' and 'allow', as in giving someone (or something) a task or granting permission. In this case, the meaning stretches to 'want', though the 2-part fragment (คุณ)(จะ)ให้(ฉัน)...หรือเปล่า could also translate as 'Would you like me to'. It could even mean 'Will you let me'?

[TommoPhysicist]

ให้โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้หรือเปล่า

(do you want to) let (me) phone (and) book room let (me) or not?

Don't know why the others are adding a 'you' at the end, as I think it should clearly be 'me'

(...) = missed out words not needed in Thai language.

xxx = extra words needed in Thai language but not needed in English.

Unusual that she used the full name for telephone, most would just write โทร ศัพท์

Edited January 26, 2013 by TommoPhysicist

[rgs2001uk]

ให้โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้หรือเปล่า

(do you want to) let (me) phone (and) book room let (me) or not?

Don't know why the others are adding a 'you' at the end, as I think it should clearly be 'me'

(...) = missed out words not needed in Thai language.

xxx = extra words needed in Thai language but not needed in English.

Unusual that she used the full name for telephone, most would just write โทร ศัพท์

Too be honest I dont know why telephone has been written.

ให้จองห้องพักหรือเปล่า would have been easier and sound more like everyday usage, do you want me to make the booking or not?

The booking doesnt say if its for one person or for a couple, its just says make a booking.

[Ratsima]

Interesting stuff. This is the sort of explanation that you don't get from any Thai language book that I've looked at. Thanks to all.

BTW, my wife is an attorney. I'm encouraging her to write with precision. That may explain why she spelled out โทรศัพท์, but it doesn't explain why she left out all those pronouns. In reality, I think she was just giving me some reading practice. So far, it's been a good lesson.

[Mole]

Of course it should be (you) at the end. Why would she ask to book a room for herself???

[meadish_sweetball]

Interesting stuff. This is the sort of explanation that you don't get from any Thai language book that I've looked at. Thanks to all.

BTW, my wife is an attorney. I'm encouraging her to write with precision. That may explain why she spelled out โทรศัพท์, but it doesn't explain why she left out all those pronouns. In reality, I think she was just giving me some reading practice. So far, it's been a good lesson.

Yes, she was giving you reading practice - also, to use as many pronouns as in English creates a somewhat unnatural or 'super-explicit' feel, as if you're talking to a kid or really want to emphasize your relation with the other person - here, she's not writing a legal document, she's just asking an everyday question.

The elliptical way of writing is more idiomatic; I am guessing your wife simply wanted to let you know how Thais would normally communicate this sort of thing rather than give you a sentence tailored for 'farang understanding'.

Mole is 100% on point - it should definitely be an understood 'you' pronoun after the second 'hai', and not a 'me'.

[rgs2001uk]

Of course it should be (you) at the end. Why would she ask to book a room for herself???

Maybe she is paying with the husbands credit card for a room for herself?

This is the trouble when there is no context given, Thai isnt that much different from English, and one of the reasons we can hear what is being said but dont have a clue as to what is being talked about.

Suppose you are just about to join me, I am talking on the phone and I say, (do you want me to) book the room or not?

You have no idea if I am saying, (are you going to) book the room or not?, or if I am saying, (do you want me to) book the room or not?

[Richard W]

ไปไม่, past, present or future?

If ไป is the main verb, tense is not marked in these two words. However, ไป may be used to indicate past time.

[Tywais]

Inflammatory post and reply removed.

[Richard W]

In an attempt to add clarity, I'll display an immediate constituent analysis of this sentence, with implied elements in square brackets.

Mole's analysis (implied text in red not confirmed by Mole) is

(₁[คุณ](₃[จะ]ให้(₄[ฉัน]โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้[คุณ])₄)₃)₁(₂หรือเปล่า)₂

Mole is 100% on point - it should definitely be an understood 'you' pronoun after the second 'hai', and not a 'me'.

However, TommoPhysicist is vehemently convinced that the structure is

(₁[คุณ](₃[จะ]ให้(₄[ฉัน]โทรศัพท์จองห้องพัก)₄)₃)₁(₂ให้หรือเปล่า)₂

In this analysis, the question marking part repeats the main verb.

Is TommoPhysicist definitely wrong? I prefer Mole and Meadish's analysis, but I'm not totally convinced that TommoPhysicist is wrong.

[Ratsima]

Thanks again.

A couple of questions:

• I understand Immediate Constituent Analysis, but I'm not familiar with the notation. Where can I look to figure out how to convert that to a tree structure? (Yes, I've read Syntactic Structures. )
  
• Where can one go to read genuine conversational Thai in order to learn how real people put sentences together?
  

Incidentally, I asked my wife. She prefers this: จะให้ฉันโทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้คุณหรือเปล่า

(Never mind the first question. I got it.)

Edited January 26, 2013 by Ratsima

[tgeezer]

Thanks again.

A couple of questions:

• I understand Immediate Constituent Analysis, but I'm not familiar with the notation. Where can I look to figure out how to convert that to a tree structure? (Yes, I've read Syntactic Structures. )
  
• Where can one go to read genuine conversational Thai in order to learn how real people put sentences together?
  

บ

Incidentally, I asked my wife. She prefers this: จะให้ฉันโทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้คุณหรือเปล่า

(Never mind the first question. I got it.)

In ให้ทำ the subject and object คุณ ผม are interchangeable but once established shouldn't change should they? If you hear ให้ทำให้หรือเปล่าyou must assume thบat the one asking needs an answer so they are not the subject but the object of ให้ . Is there any difference in คุณให้ทำหรือเปล่า ให้ผมทำหรือเปล่า ?I don't think there is so, doesn't this mean that there is nothing missing from the original question? To add anything would be Thaigrit wouldn't it.

[asdecas]

Simply - "Do you want me to phone and book a room for you or not?". This is the meaning but not a literal translation.

[Ratsima]

As I said before, "parse" does not mean "translate":

parse |pärs|

verb [ with obj. ]

analyze (a sentence) into its parts and describe their syntactic roles.

[BradinAsia]

Thanks again.

A couple of questions:

• I understand Immediate Constituent Analysis, but I'm not familiar with the notation. Where can I look to figure out how to convert that to a tree structure? (Yes, I've read Syntactic Structures. )
  
• Where can one go to read genuine conversational Thai in order to learn how real people put sentences together?
  

บ

Incidentally, I asked my wife. She prefers this: จะให้ฉันโทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้คุณหรือเปล่า

(Never mind the first question. I got it.)

In ให้ทำ the subject and object คุณ ผม are interchangeable but once established shouldn't change should they? If you hear ให้ทำให้หรือเปล่าyou must assume thบat the one asking needs an answer so they are not the subject but the object of ให้ . Is there any difference in คุณให้ทำหรือเปล่า ให้ผมทำหรือเปล่า ?I don't think there is so, doesn't this mean that there is nothing missing from the original question? To add anything would be Thaigrit wouldn't it.

Thai (and some other Asian languages) can omit nouns/pronouns in normal conversation. For example, Japanese and Korean. The most "extreme" example may be Japanese where subjects and objects are very often omitted. After studying Japanese 2 years, I still often felt a bit lost -- "Who did it?" "Who gave it to whom?" This was mainly due to my English background in which subjects or objects are not usually omitted. After 5 years of Japanese study, I had no more confusion at all.

Japanese (and Thais) can and will include nouns or pronouns if needed for clarity. English speakers are forced to include them for proper grammar and clarity. In English, we could not normally say "Please tell when the email sent" to mean "Please tell me when you sent me the email."

As far as "context", the OP understood what was being said, meaning he was aware of the context. So I think Geezer is correct in saying there is nothing missing in the original question.

[tgeezer]

Thanks again.

A couple of questions:

• I understand Immediate Constituent Analysis, but I'm not familiar with the notation. Where can I look to figure out how to convert that to a tree structure? (Yes, I've read Syntactic Structures. )
  
• Where can one go to read genuine conversational Thai in order to learn how real people put sentences together?
  

บ

Incidentally, I asked my wife. She prefers this: จะให้ฉันโทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้คุณหรือเปล่า

(Never mind the first question. I got it.)

In ให้ทำ the subject and object คุณ ผม are interchangeable but once established shouldn't change should they? If you hear ให้ทำให้หรือเปล่าyou must assume thบat the one asking needs an answer so they are not the subject but the object of ให้ . Is there any difference in คุณให้ทำหรือเปล่า ให้ผมทำหรือเปล่า ?I don't think there is so, doesn't this mean that there is nothing missing from the original question? To add anything would be Thaigrit wouldn't it.

Thai (and some other Asian languages) can omit nouns/pronouns in normal conversation. For example, Japanese and Korean. The most "extreme" example may be Japanese where subjects and objects are very often omitted. After studying Japanese 2 years, I still often felt a bit lost -- "Who did it?" "Who gave it to whom?" This was mainly due to my English background in which subjects or objects are not usually omitted. After 5 years of Japanese study, I had no more confusion at all.

Japanese (and Thais) can and will include nouns or pronouns if needed for clarity. English speakers are forced to include them for proper grammar and clarity. In English, we could not normally say "Please tell when the email sent" to mean "Please tell me when you sent me the email."

As far as "context", the OP understood what was being said, meaning he was aware of the context. So I think Geezer is correct in saying there is nothing missing in the original question.

Colloquially nothing is missing but I was wrong to say that object and subject don't change, in fact they appear to alternate, คุณให้ผมโทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้คุณ, a simple statement made a question by the addition of a question word, หรือเปล่า in this case.

There is a preposition in this statement but ให้ is not a preposition so I wonder if the whole sentence is to include the pronouns a preposition would be needed to replace the second ให้.

Is it correct to call this parsing a sentence? Is it a sentence if it is incomplete?

What is the meaning of ให้ as a preposition, แก่ ? Is it right to say that ให้ is a preposition, or that it means แก่ when it doesn't mean that?

If ให้ is not to be considered a preposition then it needs an object but that would be what the speaker wants the listener to do and the speaker is asking not telling.

Well dinner time now, I hope that you don't find this too contentious because I am not a grammarian so needn't be taken too seriously.

[Ratsima]

It's fascinating to me. I was a linguistics minor at university, but this was in the 60s and haven't paid much attention since then.

[Mole]

Well, as a native Thai, I can assure that there is nothing wrong with the original sentence and if someone would have said it, that would be the way they would have done it.

Even without knowing the prior context I understood perfectly what it meant. I can also see no doubt as who's doing what for whom.

Especially the second ให้ definitely means for you.

If it was for me, one would not have used second ให้ but instead used just ฉัน

ให้โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักฉันหรือเปล่า

Or if it was written like this

ให้โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักหรือเปล่า

Then it would not been so clear who the room is for. In this case, the room could be for you, me or both of us.

The first ให้ definitely implies me ฉัน because it just wouldn't be correct to say ให้คุณ

In the case one would want you to call, then it would have been written

คุณโทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้หรือเปล่า

Or simply

โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้หรือเปล่า

In this case, it would not be so clear who's doing what for whom, unless prior context is known.

But because of this, that single ให้ implies it's for me, because it just won't make sense to say

คุณโทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้คุณหรือเปล่า

In the case you really want to ask: "did you call to book your room", then one must omit all ให้:

คุณโทรศัพท์จองห้องพักคุณหรือเปล่า

Or in case of extreme vagueness:

โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักหรือเปล่า

[BradinAsia]

It's fascinating to me. I was a linguistics minor at university, but this was in the 60s and haven't paid much attention since then.

Also fascinating to me as a linguist. Although I'm a bit reluctant to admit that I began my language studies in Fall 1959.

[BradinAsia]

Well, as a native Thai, I can assure that there is nothing wrong with the original sentence and if someone would have said it, that would be the way they would have done it.

Even without knowing the prior context I understood perfectly what it meant. I can also see no doubt as who's doing what for whom.

Especially the second ให้ definitely means for you.

If it was for me, one would not have used second ให้ but instead used just ฉัน

ให้โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักฉันหรือเปล่า

Or if it was written like this

ให้โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักหรือเปล่า

Then it would not been so clear who the room is for. In this case, the room could be for you, me or both of us.

The first ให้ definitely implies me ฉัน because it just wouldn't be correct to say ให้คุณ

In the case one would want you to call, then it would have been written

คุณโทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้หรือเปล่า

Or simply

โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้หรือเปล่า

In this case, it would not be so clear who's doing what for whom, unless prior context is known.

But because of this, that single ให้ implies it's for me, because it just won't make sense to say

คุณโทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้คุณหรือเปล่า

In the case you really want to ask: "did you call to book your room", then one must omit all ให้:

คุณโทรศัพท์จองห้องพักคุณหรือเปล่า

Or in case of extreme vagueness:

โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักหรือเปล่า

Thanks for the thorough and clear explanation.

[Mole]

So, because of ให้ one can safely omit any nouns and the meaning of the sentence is still clear as who's doing what for whom.

One ให้ for me and one ให้ for you

I can't think of any sentence where both ให้ can be used with the same noun.

ให้เอามาได้ไหม

I also think ให้ at the beginning always implies ให้ฉัน if not then one must use a noun to specify who or usually omit the first ให้ altogether.

ให้คุณเอามาได้ไหม or คุณเอามาได้ไหม

Even when nouns are used, it can still be confusing unless prior context is known since many Thais tends to use "wrong" nouns for themselves.

For example เขา เรา is often used instead of ฉัน

So

ของเขา and ของเรา can mean mine or theirs

[Ratsima]

Thanks, Mole. Very clear.

[tgeezer]

Well, as a native Thai, I can assure that there is nothing wrong with the original sentence and if someone would have said it, that would be the way they would have done it.

Even without knowing the prior context I understood perfectly what it meant. I can also see no doubt as who's doing what for whom.

Especially the second ให้ definitely means for you.

If it was for me, one would not have used second ให้ but instead used just ฉัน

ให้โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักฉันหรือเปล่า

Or if it was written like this

ให้โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักหรือเปล่า

Then it would not been so clear who the room is for. In this case, the room could be for you, me or both of us.

The first ให้ definitely implies me ฉัน because it just wouldn't be correct to say ให้คุณ

In the case one would want you to call, then it would have been written

คุณโทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้หรือเปล่า

Or simply

โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้หรือเปล่า

In this case, it would not be so clear who's doing what for whom, unless prior context is known.

But because of this, that single ให้ implies it's for me, because it just won't make sense to say

คุณโทรศัพท์จองห้องพักให้คุณหรือเปล่า

In the case you really want to ask: "did you call to book your room", then one must omit all ให้:

คุณโทรศัพท์จองห้องพักคุณหรือเปล่า

Or in case of extreme vagueness:

โทรศัพท์จองห้องพักหรือเปล่า

So the final ให้ refers to who will use the room, I took the question to be, Do you want me to book a room on your behalf? That means to act for you. It looks as though ให้ is more than a verb and means more than มอบ or อนุญาต .

[TommoPhysicist]

So the final ให้ refers to who will use the room, I took the question to be, Do you want me to book a room on your behalf? That means to act for you. It looks as though ให้ is more than a verb and means more than มอบ or อนุญาต .

The ให้ means 'let' or 'allow' in both instances.

Questions in Thai are always repetitive in nature, it's just the way it works.

As I already said .........

"(will you) let (me) phone (and) book (the) room let (me) or not?"

You are more than welcome to complicate the issue as much as you like, it won't change the meaning of the sentence, just impair your ability to understand Thai, which is essentially a very primitive and basic language.

Edited January 28, 2013 by TommoPhysicist