Buying Vs Being A Lifelong Renter

[davejones]

Then put it in her name and get her to get a mortgage. You then pay the mortgage. If she leaves, you stop paying. Simple.

Brilliant idea!

Just tell me which bank will lend an unemployed farm girl 2M baht and I'm she's ready to buy.

I can see your problem now. After the divorce, maybe you can choose a wife that is working and that can get a mortgage. You have my sympathy.

[TommoPhysicist]

Then put it in her name and get her to get a mortgage. You then pay the mortgage. If she leaves, you stop paying. Simple.

Brilliant idea!

Just tell me which bank will lend an unemployed farm girl 2M baht and I'm she's ready to buy.

I can see your problem now. After the divorce, maybe you can choose a wife that is working and that can get a mortgage. You have my sympathy.

She already has two decent size farms, she is a farmer, but that doesn't count for anything with the banks.

They want to see a regular cash income, etc.

I want a house near the big city, not to live the rest of my life in rustic rural hell (aka a Thai village).

[diddums]

plenty of farms around...why is she unemployed ?

[davejones]

Then put it in her name and get her to get a mortgage. You then pay the mortgage. If she leaves, you stop paying. Simple.

Brilliant idea!

Just tell me which bank will lend an unemployed farm girl 2M baht and I'm she's ready to buy.

I can see your problem now. After the divorce, maybe you can choose a wife that is working and that can get a mortgage. You have my sympathy.

She already has two decent size farms, she is a farmer, but that doesn't count for anything with the banks.

They want to see a regular cash income, etc.

I want a house near the big city, not to live the rest of my life in rustic rural hell (aka a Thai village).

You said she was unemployed, but now you say she's a farmer. Did she just get a job in the last 20 mins? If the farms don't make money, then why doesn't she sell them and buy a house?

[utalkin2me]

^Ha, I must say, I keyed in on some of the other statements in there: "banks want to see regular cash income", lol.... uh, yes they do, why on earth would they not need that lol. The very definition of "regular" in this instance is being able to pay back month to month lol. Sorry, i just found some of those statements odd. In all seriousness though, and I honestly mean no disrespect to Tommo, but i bet you could actually get bank credit being a farmer. You'd have to do some very reasonable things like show them yearly statements etc, and perhaps be able to answer questions about your business, like maybe "what will you do if it is a poor rice season" etc. It just seems all too often and Thai will want money, go into a bank with their hand out and get rejected, and then complain. You have to do a lot to get money from banks, and I don't think it is the banks unwillingness to lend, I think it is Thai unwillingness to follow some pretty basic procedures.

Edited February 20, 2013 by utalkin2me

[davejones]

^Ha, I must say, I keyed in on some of the other statements in there: "banks want to see regular cash income", lol.... uh, yes they do, why on earth would they not need that lol. The very definition of "regular" in this instance is being able to pay back month to month lol. Sorry, i just found some of those statements odd. In all seriousness though, and I honestly mean no disrespect to Tommo, but i bet you could actually get bank credit being a farmer. You'd have to do some very reasonable things like show them yearly statements etc, and perhaps be able to answer questions about your business, like maybe "what will you do if it is a poor rice season" etc. It just seems all too often and Thai will want money, go into a bank with their hand out and get rejected, and then complain. You have to do a lot to get money from banks, and I don't think it is the banks unwillingness to lend, I think it is Thai unwillingness to follow some pretty basic procedures.

I also had to laugh at Tommo's comments. Shock horror, a bank expects you to have money to pay them back every month. Owning other property is no use if you don't actually have money coming in every month.

I'm sure Tommo's landlord is very happy that he's getting a free house.

[jamescollister]

^Ha, I must say, I keyed in on some of the other statements in there: "banks want to see regular cash income", lol.... uh, yes they do, why on earth would they not need that lol. The very definition of "regular" in this instance is being able to pay back month to month lol. Sorry, i just found some of those statements odd. In all seriousness though, and I honestly mean no disrespect to Tommo, but i bet you could actually get bank credit being a farmer. You'd have to do some very reasonable things like show them yearly statements etc, and perhaps be able to answer questions about your business, like maybe "what will you do if it is a poor rice season" etc. It just seems all too often and Thai will want money, go into a bank with their hand out and get rejected, and then complain. You have to do a lot to get money from banks, and I don't think it is the banks unwillingness to lend, I think it is Thai unwillingness to follow some pretty basic procedures.

Got to say I lean toward what TP is saying, farmers pay no tax. Most transactions are in cash, hard to prove income, BIL has a credit card, works for the Government, wife [we] earn more in a month than he earns in a year. She can't prove an income as an employee, banks want to see salaries. Had the same problem buying a car, had to put 25% down payment [ wife ] FIL, life time elected Government job. Paid very little money, bought a new car 20,000 deposit. Jim

[davejones]

^Ha, I must say, I keyed in on some of the other statements in there: "banks want to see regular cash income", lol.... uh, yes they do, why on earth would they not need that lol. The very definition of "regular" in this instance is being able to pay back month to month lol. Sorry, i just found some of those statements odd. In all seriousness though, and I honestly mean no disrespect to Tommo, but i bet you could actually get bank credit being a farmer. You'd have to do some very reasonable things like show them yearly statements etc, and perhaps be able to answer questions about your business, like maybe "what will you do if it is a poor rice season" etc. It just seems all too often and Thai will want money, go into a bank with their hand out and get rejected, and then complain. You have to do a lot to get money from banks, and I don't think it is the banks unwillingness to lend, I think it is Thai unwillingness to follow some pretty basic procedures.

Got to say I lean toward what TP is saying, farmers pay no tax. Most transactions are in cash, hard to prove income, BIL has a credit card, works for the Government, wife [we] earn more in a month than he earns in a year. She can't prove an income as an employee, banks want to see salaries. Had the same problem buying a car, had to put 25% down payment [ wife ] FIL, life time elected Government job. Paid very little money, bought a new car 20,000 deposit. Jim

But TP said his wife was unemployed. He seemed miffed that the bank wouldn't lend on the strength of her having two farms. If she's unemployed, then you doesn't have any cash payments from the farm. Maybe TP can clarify.

[TommoPhysicist]

^Ha, I must say, I keyed in on some of the other statements in there: "banks want to see regular cash income", lol.... uh, yes they do, why on earth would they not need that lol. The very definition of "regular" in this instance is being able to pay back month to month lol. Sorry, i just found some of those statements odd. In all seriousness though, and I honestly mean no disrespect to Tommo, but i bet you could actually get bank credit being a farmer. You'd have to do some very reasonable things like show them yearly statements etc, and perhaps be able to answer questions about your business, like maybe "what will you do if it is a poor rice season" etc. It just seems all too often and Thai will want money, go into a bank with their hand out and get rejected, and then complain. You have to do a lot to get money from banks, and I don't think it is the banks unwillingness to lend, I think it is Thai unwillingness to follow some pretty basic procedures.

Got to say I lean toward what TP is saying, farmers pay no tax. Most transactions are in cash, hard to prove income, BIL has a credit card, works for the Government, wife [we] earn more in a month than he earns in a year. She can't prove an income as an employee, banks want to see salaries. Had the same problem buying a car, had to put 25% down payment [ wife ] FIL, life time elected Government job. Paid very little money, bought a new car 20,000 deposit. Jim

But TP said his wife was unemployed. He seemed miffed that the bank wouldn't lend on the strength of her having two farms. If she's unemployed, then you doesn't have any cash payments from the farm. Maybe TP can clarify.

Sure, she has property valued at 3M+ with full chanote and no debt, I have 2M+ cash in the same Thai bank, plus pension income. No home loan cos she can't prove income, what I have doesn't count cos foreigner ........ yet (as Jim says) a government employee earning 15k a month and no assets has no problem getting the same loan.

Edited February 20, 2013 by TommoPhysicist

[Khun Jean]

So build/buy a house with cash. Or if it is not enough save some longer. Much better then paying the bank a high interest rate.

[jamescollister]

^Ha, I must say, I keyed in on some of the other statements in there: "banks want to see regular cash income", lol.... uh, yes they do, why on earth would they not need that lol. The very definition of "regular" in this instance is being able to pay back month to month lol. Sorry, i just found some of those statements odd. In all seriousness though, and I honestly mean no disrespect to Tommo, but i bet you could actually get bank credit being a farmer. You'd have to do some very reasonable things like show them yearly statements etc, and perhaps be able to answer questions about your business, like maybe "what will you do if it is a poor rice season" etc. It just seems all too often and Thai will want money, go into a bank with their hand out and get rejected, and then complain. You have to do a lot to get money from banks, and I don't think it is the banks unwillingness to lend, I think it is Thai unwillingness to follow some pretty basic procedures.

Got to say I lean toward what TP is saying, farmers pay no tax. Most transactions are in cash, hard to prove income, BIL has a credit card, works for the Government, wife [we] earn more in a month than he earns in a year. She can't prove an income as an employee, banks want to see salaries. Had the same problem buying a car, had to put 25% down payment [ wife ] FIL, life time elected Government job. Paid very little money, bought a new car 20,000 deposit. Jim

But TP said his wife was unemployed. He seemed miffed that the bank wouldn't lend on the strength of her having two farms. If she's unemployed, then you doesn't have any cash payments from the farm. Maybe TP can clarify.

Unemployed in this case means you don't work for someone else. A lot of farm land is crown land, you can not borrow against it, banks are very wary of lending money on good title land, as it takes years to foreclose, courts are slow.

If you have good title on the farm you can form a company, then you pay 15% tax. Paying tax is not the Thai way.

Plus my wife has hardly done a days work in her life, people work for her, but as % tappers or cash in hand. Not going to be able to prove a cash flow.

That's just the way banks work, just the system. Jim

[Khun Jean]

It is actually very easy to prove a cash flow.

Every time you have money after a transaction in your hands you put it on the bank.

My wife has a small shop and does just that. After 6 months the offers for credit cards and loans were coming in, on the phone, sms, and brochures. Our rental properties are in a business and borrowing money on that account is so easy it is ridiculous.

Banks just love to loan money, it is their source of profit.

Unfortunately for them, we don't do anything with loans or credit cards, but keep the cash flow going because you never know.

[davejones]

^Ha, I must say, I keyed in on some of the other statements in there: "banks want to see regular cash income", lol.... uh, yes they do, why on earth would they not need that lol. The very definition of "regular" in this instance is being able to pay back month to month lol. Sorry, i just found some of those statements odd. In all seriousness though, and I honestly mean no disrespect to Tommo, but i bet you could actually get bank credit being a farmer. You'd have to do some very reasonable things like show them yearly statements etc, and perhaps be able to answer questions about your business, like maybe "what will you do if it is a poor rice season" etc. It just seems all too often and Thai will want money, go into a bank with their hand out and get rejected, and then complain. You have to do a lot to get money from banks, and I don't think it is the banks unwillingness to lend, I think it is Thai unwillingness to follow some pretty basic procedures.

Got to say I lean toward what TP is saying, farmers pay no tax. Most transactions are in cash, hard to prove income, BIL has a credit card, works for the Government, wife [we] earn more in a month than he earns in a year. She can't prove an income as an employee, banks want to see salaries. Had the same problem buying a car, had to put 25% down payment [ wife ] FIL, life time elected Government job. Paid very little money, bought a new car 20,000 deposit. Jim

But TP said his wife was unemployed. He seemed miffed that the bank wouldn't lend on the strength of her having two farms. If she's unemployed, then you doesn't have any cash payments from the farm. Maybe TP can clarify.

Sure, she has property valued at 3M+ with full chanote and no debt, I have 2M+ cash in the same Thai bank, plus pension income. No home loan cos she can't prove income, what I have doesn't count cos foreigner ........ yet (as Jim says) a government employee earning 15k a month and no assets has no problem getting the same loan.

Your money shouldn't count, because when you get divorced you'll stop paying any mortgage in your wife's name. So why should they take that risk. Get wife to sell 3 million land and buy 2 million house. Then you pay her rent to stay there. Simple.

[davejones]

It is actually very easy to prove a cash flow.

Every time you have money after a transaction in your hands you put it on the bank.

My wife has a small shop and does just that. After 6 months the offers for credit cards and loans were coming in, on the phone, sms, and brochures. Our rental properties are in a business and borrowing money on that account is so easy it is ridiculous.

Banks just love to loan money, it is their source of profit.

Unfortunately for them, we don't do anything with loans or credit cards, but keep the cash flow going because you never know.

The problem is that she doesn't have any cash coming in. She's unemployed. So no money to deposit. Tommo could employ her as his maid so that she can show some cash coming in. LOL.

[davejones]

^Ha, I must say, I keyed in on some of the other statements in there: "banks want to see regular cash income", lol.... uh, yes they do, why on earth would they not need that lol. The very definition of "regular" in this instance is being able to pay back month to month lol. Sorry, i just found some of those statements odd. In all seriousness though, and I honestly mean no disrespect to Tommo, but i bet you could actually get bank credit being a farmer. You'd have to do some very reasonable things like show them yearly statements etc, and perhaps be able to answer questions about your business, like maybe "what will you do if it is a poor rice season" etc. It just seems all too often and Thai will want money, go into a bank with their hand out and get rejected, and then complain. You have to do a lot to get money from banks, and I don't think it is the banks unwillingness to lend, I think it is Thai unwillingness to follow some pretty basic procedures.

Got to say I lean toward what TP is saying, farmers pay no tax. Most transactions are in cash, hard to prove income, BIL has a credit card, works for the Government, wife [we] earn more in a month than he earns in a year. She can't prove an income as an employee, banks want to see salaries. Had the same problem buying a car, had to put 25% down payment [ wife ] FIL, life time elected Government job. Paid very little money, bought a new car 20,000 deposit. Jim

But TP said his wife was unemployed. He seemed miffed that the bank wouldn't lend on the strength of her having two farms. If she's unemployed, then you doesn't have any cash payments from the farm. Maybe TP can clarify.

Unemployed in this case means you don't work for someone else. A lot of farm land is crown land, you can not borrow against it, banks are very wary of lending money on good title land, as it takes years to foreclose, courts are slow.

If you have good title on the farm you can form a company, then you pay 15% tax. Paying tax is not the Thai way.

Plus my wife has hardly done a days work in her life, people work for her, but as % tappers or cash in hand. Not going to be able to prove a cash flow.

That's just the way banks work, just the system. Jim

Working, but not for someone else is called self-employed, not unemployed. From wikipedia... Unemployment (or joblessness) occurs when people are without work and actively seeking work.

[jamescollister]

It is actually very easy to prove a cash flow.

Every time you have money after a transaction in your hands you put it on the bank.

My wife has a small shop and does just that. After 6 months the offers for credit cards and loans were coming in, on the phone, sms, and brochures. Our rental properties are in a business and borrowing money on that account is so easy it is ridiculous.

Banks just love to loan money, it is their source of profit.

Unfortunately for them, we don't do anything with loans or credit cards, but keep the cash flow going because you never know.

Have no problem getting a loans for fertilizer or other farm related things. Money goes into the bank 2 weekly or monthly. Have a company account, money goes into that, but loans are unsecured. They are yearly loans and have to be cleared within the year.

Have good credit from our bank for short term loans, mortgages and 6 year car loans different story.

When the company was making money, or having a good turn over, bank was happy to loan up to 5 Mil, but secured by the industrial land title. Not a chance I am willing to take at the moment.

We will be looking at a house mortgage in a few years, kids will need to go to a better school when they are older.

Factory that makes no money, but pays tax and rubber plantations that makes money and pays no tax.

When the kids get older will have a talk with the accountant and see what he recommends. Jim

[jamescollister]

DJ

Think self employed would infer paying taxes etc. The homeless guy collecting cans from garbage bins is not likely to be called self employed.

Then again some Governments may cut unemployment numbers by saying he is self employed. Just like some places are now referring to homeless as urban outdoors men, life style choice. Jim

[TommoPhysicist]

Your money shouldn't count, because when you get divorced you'll stop paying any mortgage in your wife's name. So why should they take that risk. Get wife to sell 3 million land and buy 2 million house. Then you pay her rent to stay there. Simple.

Actually my money should count as we are married and jointly liable for any debts accumulated during our marriage under Thai law.

Also as her husband I have to co-sign as guarantor on any large loan she takes out. No problem to keep making the payments if/when we divorce. I need somewhere to live, she has her farm. Likely the kids would live with me anyway as they need schools and CM has much better opportunities than a farm in a rural village.

I think Jim and I are likely to be in similar positions re home loans, children and schools.

Edited February 20, 2013 by TommoPhysicist

[pinfold]

Lifetime renter or buyer? the packed suitcase at the bottom of the bed suits me fine thanks,Id top myself being stuck here with property to sell. Anyway Jim lad off to Boracay PH. in an hour or so,the surfacing for air bit here in Thailand is getting too much of a pattern for me

[BlackPuddingBertha]

A friend of mine just sold his nice 1-bed condo in a very popular Pattaya building. He had a few viewings and it sold in about 4 weeks, so the price was right.

He bought it for 4MB in 2005 and it sold for under 3MB now.

At the same time I pay under 4% of that sale price as rent for a similar unit in a similar building.

[davejones]

A friend of mine just sold his nice 1-bed condo in a very popular Pattaya building. He had a few viewings and it sold in about 4 weeks, so the price was right.

He bought it for 4MB in 2005 and it sold for under 3MB now.

At the same time I pay under 4% of that sale price as rent for a similar unit in a similar building.

So you friend lost just over 1 million baht. And you lost about the same in rent, so not much difference. The problem seems to be that your friend overpaid to begin with. There are lots of people willing to overpay in Pattaya.

[Gary A]

There is a huge difference between borrowing money for farming expenses and borrowing money to buy real estate. The banks will be quick to tell you that they are not in the real estate business. They are in the business of loaning money to people who have a proven income and are capable of making payments on time. My money makes no difference to the bank as far as my wife's borrowing power.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

So you friend lost just over 1 million baht. And you lost about the same in rent, so not much difference. The problem seems to be that your friend overpaid to begin with. There are lots of people willing to overpay in Pattaya.

Wrong on both counts.

I didn't "lose" anything as whilst I've been paying rent my 4MB has been in the bank producing more interest every year than my rent amounts to. So I have my 4MB and some interest, and a rebate cheque for the withholding tax on the interest and I have paid my rent. He has lost 1MB and has also paid a load of bills (common fees, cable TV, repairs, buying/selling fees etc) that I have not paid. And I have slept very easy every night.

He paid a fairly average price at the time. In fact I know of other similar units that sold for more at that time. Of course I wont deny the fact that these units were not worth 4MB in 2005. Nor are they worth 3MB today even though they sell at that price. Maybe 2.5MB on a good day with a following wind would be about right. Maybe less.

[davejones]

So you friend lost just over 1 million baht. And you lost about the same in rent, so not much difference. The problem seems to be that your friend overpaid to begin with. There are lots of people willing to overpay in Pattaya.

Wrong on both counts.

I didn't "lose" anything as whilst I've been paying rent my 4MB has been in the bank producing more interest every year than my rent amounts to. So I have my 4MB and some interest, and a rebate cheque for the withholding tax on the interest and I have paid my rent. He has lost 1MB and has also paid a load of bills (common fees, cable TV, repairs, buying/selling fees etc) that I have not paid. And I have slept very easy every night.

He paid a fairly average price at the time. In fact I know of other similar units that sold for more at that time. Of course I wont deny the fact that these units were not worth 4MB in 2005. Nor are they worth 3MB today even though they sell at that price. Maybe 2.5MB on a good day with a following wind would be about right. Maybe less.

In that case, you made a very good decision. I think condos are probably the least likely to appreciate in value in Thailand. Houses seem to do much better. Condo market has too much oversupply, and will for years and years to come. But that prices aren't rising is a good thing, as it means that more people can afford a home.

[Khun Jean]

Houses also not appreciate. Only the land they sit on.

If you want to speculate, unfortunately only Thais can do that, then just buy vacant land.

We (my wife) has a few plots that are almost double in price after 5 years.And another increased about 25% in the last year if using neighboring plots as a price measurement.

Older smaller condo buildingss with 150 or less units are interesting in Bangkok because of the land they sit on. Just take the m2 of the land and divide it by the number of units to get a rough estimate.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Khun Jean