Trying To Locate A Highway Marker For The Friendship Highway (Mittraphap Road)

[MikeLaw]

I have a couple of pictures from 1956 of my family taken near a marker for the Friendship Highway. I would like to be able to recreate this photo on an upcoming visit to Thailand. I know that the sign was erected prior to 1956 because it looks a bit worse for wear already in these photos, but I'm fairly sure that the project began in 1954, so it couldn't have been prior to that date. My grandfather was a civil engineer who worked on this project from 1955-1956 before a family illness forced him to return to the states. The stretch of highway that they built in those years was from Saraburi to Korat. I know that the stretches closer to Korat were the last parts that were completed, so I believe that this marker was somewhere near or in Saraburi. If anyone can identify this marker, its exact location or if it remains standing today, I would be most grateful. I presume it was adjacent to the highway, although I do not know that for certain.

tl112 by MikeLaw804, on Flickr

My grandfather and uncle at the monument

tl81 by MikeLaw804, on Flickr

My grandmother, uncle, mother and aunt at the monument.

I also have another picture which may or may not be related. A note on on the back of the picture says that it was "monks at the dedication ceremony for the Friendship Highway." This could not have been the official opening of the highway ceremony, which took place in 1958 and was attended by the KIng. Perhaps it was a groundbreaking type ceremony associated with the marker or perhaps not. Unfortunately, most of my family who attended are no longer alive, so the only information I really have is that they drove out and back the same day from Bangkok, so that also probably puts it in the Saraburi area.

tl67.friendship hiway dedication by MikeLaw804, on Flickr

[Route21]

I know that the stretches closer to Korat were the last parts that were completed, so I believe that this marker was somewhere near or in Saraburi.

Although not from Saraburi, we have regularly passed through on the way up North.

Looking at the Google map, copy attached, if it's at the Saraburi end of Route 2 and still there, it's possibly on Sut Banthat (see Google screenshot), just North of the new flyover (AH12) as you enter Saraburi from Bangkok. It appears to be the "old road" before they built the flyover. (The track just immediately south of Sut Banthat is a "klong" or canal.)

If not there, it would probably have to be once the new flyover and the "old" road merge and you are back on the "old" Route 2.

Maybe someone living in/around Saraburi can spot it and give a more definitive answer.

Hope this helps

R21

[MikeLaw]

Thanks very much for the suggestion. I wish that Google had done their street view for Saraburi as they have for Bangkok. It has been very helpful at finding locations there. It has turned into some kind of quest for me now!

[Route21]

Yes, I was desperately looking for a street view.

We used to use the flyover to get some shopping in from Tesco on our way north from Don Muang/Swampy before we moved here and got our own Tesco & Big C in Phetchabun.

Regards

R21

[Route21]

You may have difficulty in getting a response from any TV members in Saraburi.

There have been recent reports of unacceptably high levels of dust pollution from the local quarries and related industries.

Maybe the local TV members have moved out!

Regards

R21

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Route 21

Prior to building the flyover at Saraburi, you just turned right at the same spot to head up to the northeast. Right under where the flyover sits now. I first did that turn in 1964 when I was in the Army up at Korat.

A possibility for IDing where that monument was would be to check in with the Saraburi office of the Thai Highway Department. They might have an old timer still on their staff. Probably also have some old maps dusting away in the map filing cabinets.

Could also check with the photos at the Saraburi, Amphur Muang (district) office with their engineering staff, maps, again.

Mac

[Route21]

Hi Mac

The problem that the OP had, I believe, is that he is currently in the States and wanted to know if anyone knew if it still existed and if so where.

I didn't start travelling through Saraburi till 2002, so my thoughts were just a stab in the dark that might have helped.

If it were at the Saraburi end and the flyover was built over the old turning then there's a possibilty it didn't survive the construction of the flyover.

I can't imagine a contractor in those days wanting to relocate the memories of a previous contractor's work to a "safe" location?

If the project started in 1954, i. e. 58 years ago, you would probably need to search for a government/municipality engineer in his late 70's.

I very much doubt if such a monument would be shown on the "construction" drawings because it wouldn't have been thought of at that stage - and the possibility of any "as-built" drawings either showing it (or even existing) is probably somewhat remote.

Is there anyone in the forum who might be driving, say, from Saraburi to Korat or even to Tesco's via the flyover, in the near future who might try and spot it for the OP?

Regards

R21

Edited February 18, 2013 by Route21

[MikeLaw]

Unfortunately, I don't even know for certain that it was in Saraburi proper or at the very start of the road. I was hoping that it was close enough to the road that someone might have notced it driving by. Given the time that has elapsed, there is also a distinct possibility that the marker was leveled to make room for other construction in the intervening years. I have reached out to the US State Department, since the road project was theirs and they have helped me find some information, but not enough to locate the marker. I know a lot about the official opening ceremony that was attended by the king, but this marker pre-dates that.

[Route21]

Hi Mike

I don't know if you've seen it, but there's a short article on it in Wikipedia:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittraphap_Road#mw-mf-overlay

Regards

R21

[Route21]

Just a slight correction to my earlier post.

On reflection, a municipality official at the time would probably be a better bet. It was probably purchased as a "thank you" to the US for helping fund the project after completion. A young "official" is more likely to have been involved in/attended the actual ceremony rather than a young field engineer - plus you may be looking at a later date for the ceremony and hence a "currently" younger witness.

Also, it would possibly not have been handled through the engineers but "commisioned" either directly by the municipality or indirectly through the contractor from the local stone/monument masons (or their Thai equivalent).

Just a few thoughts that might help.

Regards

R21

[MikeLaw]

I don't know if you've seen it, but there's a short article on it in Wikipedia:

I've seen that and there are some pretty cool websites that track the later construction during the 60s of the road which are maintained by ex-Army guys who worked on the road at that time. I've reached out to that group and had some very nice correspondance with some of them, but alas no one remembers the actual marker.

On reflection, a municipality official at the time would probably be a better bet. It was probably purchased as a "thank you" to the US for helping fund the project after completion. A young "official" is more likely to have been involved in/attended the actual ceremony rather than a young field engineer - plus you may be looking at a later date for the ceremony and hence a "currently" younger witness.

That's a great idea. I had focused on the US side of the government equation, but the Thai side might be a better bet. I'll do some homework and reach out to a few folks. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Route21]

Hi Mike

Just for the heck of it, to check out one of your basic assumptions, I asked Google maps to give me directions from Bangkok to the Nakhon Ratchasima (Korat) end of Route 2.

It came up with the route via Saraburi and Route 2. The distance was 258 kms (160 miles) and a time of 3 hrs 7 mins. Bear in mind that is on the current condition of the road and a modern car, it could still easily be a day trip from Bangkok. We would normlly set out at round 6 am for such a trip, as it's just starting to get light.

Also, bear in mind:

1. who would be most thankful for the road - Saraburi, where it would just increase the through traffic, or Korat, where it would provide faster access to markets in Bangkok for their produce?

2. wouldn't a monument most likely be erected at the finishing point?

3. where were they when the road was finally finished? - Korat.

Maybe someone from the Korat area, who had ignored the thread, thinking it related to the Saraburi end of the road, might now be able to help?

Best regards

R21

[lopburi3]

Be aware that these were just rural two lane roads from point-to-point in those days with almost no real traffic other than red bus and fuel tankers. It was still transport by train/boat for most goods. As Saraburi was the junction of the two major roads (first long distance roads) in Thailand suspect it would be at that junction so could be viewed by travelers on both routes.

[Route21]

.... As Saraburi was the junction of the two major roads (first long distance roads) in Thailand suspect it would be at that junction so could be viewed by travelers on both routes.

The original junction has since been replaced by a major flyover that would have swallowed it completely, unless it was possibly saved and relocated, maybe directly under the flyover on it's completion. That would be easy for a local to spot.

My only concern over it being located at the Saraburi end would be that stretch was apparently completed first.

I would have thought that, politically, the monument wouldn't have been installed until the Korat section (and its funding) was complete. In which case, it would have had to be installed long after the Saraburi section was completed and would possibly favour a Korat end location?

R21

[MikeLaw]

I can not fault your logic. However, the road was not completed and dedicated until July 1958 and my grandmother was diagnosed with cancer and the whole family had to return to the states well before that. I think that the road was not yet completed when they returned. I have some information on the route prior to the completion of the road from an old document from the Department of State that says:

The major purpose of this highway was to promote the economic development of North­ east Thailand. The only highway between Bangkok and Korat, the gateway to the Northeast and its 8 million people, had been 404 Km long. About 300 Km. of this was tortuous and rough. with impassable muddy stretches in rainy season, rocky passages through the mountains, and dozens of narrow, flimsy wooden bridges. Under the best of conditions, it meant 8 or 9 hours of dangerous, car-busting travel. Replacement of this part of the road, between Saraburi and Korat, was considered the most-needed link in the improvement of.Thailand's highway system.

Also the sign refers to Field Marshall Phibunsongkhram and not the King, which means it was erected prior to the coup in September 1957. I know that at the dedication ceremony in 1958 the king and the US Secretary of State attended and any markers erected would not have referred to Phibunsongkhram. In fact, its quite possible that the marker was replaced at that time since Phibunsongkhram was by then in exile and persona non grata. The dedication in 1958 was a big deal and mention of it appeared in newspapers worldwide.

[MikeLaw]

I tried doing more Google research using Phibunsongkhram's name and I think I found something significant. This guy says that the road was "unofficially opened in 20 February 1957 by Field Marshall Plaek Pibunsonggram and US Ambassador (Max Bishop)" That fits with the dates my family were there, explains the mystery photo that is supposed to be monks at a ceremony for the road and explains the name on the sign. That also makes it possible that the marker is at the Korat end, if the road was in fact "unofficially open" at that time. The poster links to two sources. One of them is a newpaper article, which Google translate tells me indicates that the road unofficially opened in February 2501 (which would match the claim), but it also claims that the King opened the roas in July 2501, when I'm quite sure it was 2502. It also links to the Thai wikipedia, which in turn has a PDF link, which is beyond the ability of Google translate to help me with. I'm not sure it says anything useful anyhow, but it is here for those of you who speak Thai.

I shall concentrate my search on this 20 February 1957 event, which fits with all the pieces I have thus far.

[harrry]

Posibly the State Department has a diary of the Secretary of State's engagements if he was there. It may be available through Freedom of Information etc....(Or you may need to try Wikkileaks )

Edited February 21, 2013 by harrry

[MikeLaw]

Posibly the State Department has a diary of the Secretary of State's engagements if he was there. It may be available through Freedom of Information etc....(Or you may need to try Wikkileaks )

I have a bunch of material on the July 1958 ceremony. I have only just discovered the February 1957 one, which was attended by the US Ambassador.

Edited February 21, 2013 by MikeLaw

[Route21]

Great news!

It looks like you are now much closer to a conclusion.

The only caveat I would have is that it's just possible that it may have been replaced at the time of the later ceremony, particularly if it was in a state of poor repair.

I've not yet had a chance to take a peek at your links, but I'll see if someone can help with the Thai document.

Regards

R21

[harrry]

My guess is that unless it was on a bypassed section of the road it will not exist as the road is many many lanes wider now.

[MikeLaw]

The standard wikipedia article on the road has a confirmation of sorts. It says that "It received the name 'Thanon Mittraphap' on February 20, 1957." Since this is the exact same date given in the other source for an "unofficial" opening, this has got to be real. Unfortunately, it includes no source. I'll reach out to the Department of State historian as well and see if he can turn anything up with this new information.

Harry, you may well be right. Worst case, I've learned a few things -- so no harm done. The photos don't give enough perspective to determine how close to the road bed the marker is.