Thai Citizenship

[chiangrai57020]

I have read many of the postings regarding Thai citizenship and permanent residency.

Please note that my question does not seem to be answered elsewhere in the posting. This is a Thai Citizenship issue.

The requirements for 'Thai Citizenship' includes the completion of a page called (for lack of a better term) 'Work Permit'. One of the requirements for Thai citizenship states 'Letter from your employer or other documents to certify that you have income of at least 30,000 baht a month'. This 'page' was erroneously completed by 'former' staff at the Ampur in January 2003. It was brought to their attention at that time but they insisted that it was necessary. Now, I have nothing but problems.

My question: How does this statement apply when my spouse does not work, has no employment, and has not worked for over 5 years? She is a 'Housewife'! I am having a problem getting people at the Ampur, where she submitted her application for Thai Citizenship over 3 years ago, to understand that my spouse does not work and has not worked for over 5 years. They are insistant that a "letter" from her employer is needed before they can do any further processing of her application?

At the time the application for Thai Citizenship was completed in January 2003 the Ampur collected over 8,000 Baht (subsequently disappeared!) which was, apparently, back taxes! For 3 years we have made several trips to the Ampur and the 'Tax' and 'Work Permit' issue was never brought up - Until today.

The explanation that was given to me today was that the Interior Ministry in Bangkok is asking for a 'Letter' from my wife's employer. I stated that she 'Does Not Work' and that there is 'No Employer'. Where is their 'common sense' ?

So, I am at a loss as to how to get across to 'whomever' that we cannot produce what is not available.

Any suggestions on how I can get my point across? Anyone experience the same regarding a 'Work Permit' and 'Letter' from a non-existent employer? Is there a solution that I am overlooking?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Edited March 6, 2006 by chiangrai57020

[samran]

Firstly, please explain. Are you (the husband) a Thai national? And it is your wife (foreinger) who is applying for Thai citizenship?

[chiangrai57020]

I do not know what happen to my original posting of this topic! So I will start over.

My question pertains to Thai Citizenship. Requirements may be the same for permanent residency.

My Tai Lue spouse submitted her application for Thai Citizenship (Naturalization) in January of 2003. The application was submitted with a page (for lack of another term), Work Permit. This 'page' has caused us nothing but grief ever since. She tried to tell the 'former' staff at the Ampur preparing the application that she did not work. The Ampur staff insisted that the Work Permit page had to be completed.

Here is the problem. Because the Work Permit page was completed, the Interior Ministry in Bangkok has been wanting a 'Letter' from her employer! She is a 'Housewife' and has been for over 5 years. At the time she completed her application over 3 years ago she was, and still is, a 'Housewife'. I cannot seem to get this across to the people at the Ampur. They keep insisting on the need for a 'letter' from her non-existent employer. Here is the Catch 22: Legally we are not married (cannot register a marriage in Thailand unless you have Thai Citizenship). We were married the 'traditional' Thai way!.

Apparently one of the requirements for Thai Citizenship is a "Letter from your employer or other documents to certify that you have income of at least 30,000 baht a month".

I am totally lost as to what to do about this problem. There was also an issue about taxes. Taxes were paid up to the date that the application was completed (It appears that the 'tax' collected disappeared!). Was informed of this today. We were able to produce receipts, however.

My spouse is a Tai Lue who has lived in Thailand since the age of 8. So, the number of consecutive years in Thailand is not an issue.

Any recommendations on how I can convince the responsible (!) people that a 'Housewife' does not have nor need a Work Permit? Are there any alternatives that I am unaware of?

I do no of other Tai Lue's that have received their Thai Citizenship but 'they did work' and, apparently had a letter from their employer. BUT, what really gets me is that these Tai Lue do not come close to making 30,000 baht per month, yet they got their citizenship!

Very confusing. Any help, suggestions, advise will be much appreciated.

Lost

Edited March 6, 2006 by chiangrai57020

[chiangrai57020]

Firstly, please explain. Are you (the husband) a Thai national? And it is your wife (foreinger) who is applying for Thai citizenship?

You are coreect. I was not specific in that area.

My spouse is a Thai Lue (foreigner female) and I am American (male ).

She has lived in Thailand since the age of 8 years. So consecutive years on Thai soil is not an issue.

[BKK90210]

Firstly, please explain. Are you (the husband) a Thai national? And it is your wife (foreinger) who is applying for Thai citizenship?

You are coreect. I was not specific in that area.

My spouse is a Thai Lue (foreigner female) and I am American (male ).

She has lived in Thailand since the age of 8 years. So consecutive years on Thai soil is not an issue.

I'm still not sure who's applying!...and what is "Thai lue" anyway? never heard of that before

[lopburi3]

Can not help your case but want to correct one wrong statement (cannot register a marriage in Thailand unless you have Thai Citizenship). Non Thai can most assuredly marry in Thailand. But it requires a paper of non marriage from your Embassy (which is the catch 22 part for her).

Believe others have has similar problems so hope that are reading and can offer assistance.

[Dragonman]

I thought ethnic hilltribe people were excluded from financial provisions by the Ministry. Where did she come to Thailand from when she was 8, Burma?

Phone or e-mail the Ministry direct, rather than through the Amphur. Although presuming you are in Chiang Rai, they should be aware after the recently approved masses of hilltribe people. I sincerely doubt they all earned over 30,000 a month.

[chiangrai57020]

I thought ethnic hilltribe people were excluded from financial provisions by the Ministry. Where did she come to Thailand from when she was 8, Burma?

Phone or e-mail the Ministry direct, rather than through the Amphur. Although presuming you are in Chiang Rai, they should be aware after the recently approved masses of hilltribe people. I sincerely doubt they all earned over 30,000 a month.

I have met with the Nai Amphur today (March 7) and it seems as though there two issues: Taxes and Work Permit. The 1st issue, Taxes I 'think' as been resolved. Produced copies of the 'tax' receipt which seemed to satisfy him. Apparently the Taxes collected in January 2003 'mysteriously disappeared' when the 'former' staff at the Amphur were replaced! This was from the Nai Amphur himself!

The 2nd issue, Work Permit, has not been resolved although the Nai Amphur has given me some assurance that this issue can be resolved.

I was not aware that 'hilltribe' (in my case my wife is Tai Lue) were excluded from the financial provision. I do know of other Tai Lue that have received their Thai Citizenship and I also know that they do not come close to the 30,000 baht per month income requirement.

The reason I met with the Nai Amphur was the direct result of a letter I sent to the Interior Minister on January 3, 2006. I also read the newspaper (The Nation) regarding the granting of Thai Citizenship. The reason for my letter; but also the fact that the staff at the Amphur could not give me an explanation as to why it has been more than 3 years since application was submitted and I cannot get any answers to questions we had.

I am hoping that the Nai Amphur can get the issues resolved and my wife can get her Citizenship.

Oh! Yes, she did come from Burma with the rest of her family when she was 8 years old. Her 'dummy' passport/ID that was given to her by the Thai government shows her home country as China - Yannan province. That is where most Tai Lue originated.

Thanks for your input. Hope to have this problem resolved - according to the Nai Amphur - within a week. I am not holding my breath!!!

[chiangrai57020]

Can not help your case but want to correct one wrong statement (cannot register a marriage in Thailand unless you have Thai Citizenship). Non Thai can most assuredly marry in Thailand. But it requires a paper of non marriage from your Embassy (which is the catch 22 part for her).

Believe others have has similar problems so hope that are reading and can offer assistance.

I checked, again today, with the Amphur and was specifically told that with the 'lack of documentation from our Traditional 'Thai' wedding ceromony' that we cannot register the marriage. Apparently the village Tai Lue headman can provide a 'document' confirming our marriage. We are looking into this. Staff at the Amphur did tell me that if my wife had a Thai ID card then our marriage could be registered BUT not backdated to the actual date of marriage (I assume they mean that we have to remarry!). I do not know if some people just sit around all day 'dreaming up' some of these ridiculous rules/requirements!

Thanks for your input - appreciated.

Edited March 7, 2006 by chiangrai57020

[dseawarrior]

I thought ethnic hilltribe people were excluded from financial provisions by the Ministry. Where did she come to Thailand from when she was 8, Burma?

Phone or e-mail the Ministry direct, rather than through the Amphur. Although presuming you are in Chiang Rai, they should be aware after the recently approved masses of hilltribe people. I sincerely doubt they all earned over 30,000 a month.

I have met with the Nai Amphur today (March 7) and it seems as though there two issues: Taxes and Work Permit. The 1st issue, Taxes I 'think' as been resolved. Produced copies of the 'tax' receipt which seemed to satisfy him. Apparently the Taxes collected in January 2003 'mysteriously disappeared' when the 'former' staff at the Amphur were replaced! This was from the Nai Amphur himself!

The 2nd issue, Work Permit, has not been resolved although the Nai Amphur has given me some assurance that this issue can be resolved.

I was not aware that 'hilltribe' (in my case my wife is Tai Lue) were excluded from the financial provision. I do know of other Tai Lue that have received their Thai Citizenship and I also know that they do not come close to the 30,000 baht per month income requirement.

The reason I met with the Nai Amphur was the direct result of a letter I sent to the Interior Minister on January 3, 2006. I also read the newspaper (The Nation) regarding the granting of Thai Citizenship. The reason for my letter; but also the fact that the staff at the Amphur could not give me an explanation as to why it has been more than 3 years since application was submitted and I cannot get any answers to questions we had.

I am hoping that the Nai Amphur can get the issues resolved and my wife can get her Citizenship.

Oh! Yes, she did come from Burma with the rest of her family when she was 8 years old. Her 'dummy' passport/ID that was given to her by the Thai government shows her home country as China - Yannan province. That is where most Tai Lue originated.

Thanks for your input. Hope to have this problem resolved - according to the Nai Amphur - within a week. I am not holding my breath!!!

Good idea to not hold your breath! I hope that you are able to get this resolved in a week!

My girlfriend is Thai Yai (hilltribe, Kuhn Yuam, Mae Hong Son, but could be Thai Lue or Burmese for all I know...). It doesn't matter so much from where, the trick is that she needs to get her Tabien Baan worked out with whoever she has been living with or calling family over the years...

If she has moved around a lot that may be complicated but I assume that she has connections with her friends and family at her Ampur...

My GF has been going through all of this recently and she claims that everything to be done has already been done... Spreading dosh around would only complicate the issue she says and get the local officials greedy and jealous... She says the same thing about getting an attorney involved -- she thinks they would only want to steal money -- probably true...

My GF says to be patient. She may get her ID card/ tabien baan/ baht brachachon in a week a month, a year or maybe never...

And with the govt busy with protests, I don't know if the locals are being very diligent in getting the paperwork processed... God knows what they do all day in those administrative offices...

Good luck to you mate... We are in similar boats... Tell me if you are successful in your attempts at pushing the process along -- but be careful about pushing too hard -- could well backfire...

Chok dee na,

dseawarrior

I thought ethnic hilltribe people were excluded from financial provisions by the Ministry. Where did she come to Thailand from when she was 8, Burma?

Phone or e-mail the Ministry direct, rather than through the Amphur. Although presuming you are in Chiang Rai, they should be aware after the recently approved masses of hilltribe people. I sincerely doubt they all earned over 30,000 a month.

Hi Dragonman,

BTW, which Ministry do you have in mind? Do you have their contact info in BKK? (Ph, e-mail, website, specific names of people to contact?)...

I am fairly certain that "everything" has been done by my GF at her local amphur for her application and now she is waiting for the ministry in BKK to rubber stamp the application or whatever...

Please share a bit more so that more of this becomes more transparent to more people... ?

Thanks! This is a strange and byzantine process of Thai society... Why do they take _so_ long?

dseawarrior

[lopburi3]

There is only one legal marriage and that is registration at the amphur so there could not be any back-dating for anyone. It is not a marriage until registered.

Now is seems they may be able to make a special allowance for marriages among her group and that if you can present that information they can register it. That seems like a good obtain to look into as surly your marriage would be well known to the village.

You have both a marriage and citizenship concern so if you can take care of the marriage with a piece of paper now I would do so and then work on the citizenship. One thing at a time. I would think that perhaps you are her employer if she is a "housewife" and perhaps a letter from you would be helpful. But I would get the marriage legal first. And if legal consul is available it might be helpful.

[mijan24]

Can not help your case but want to correct one wrong statement (cannot register a marriage in Thailand unless you have Thai Citizenship). Non Thai can most assuredly marry in Thailand. But it requires a paper of non marriage from your Embassy (which is the catch 22 part for her).

Believe others have has similar problems so hope that are reading and can offer assistance.

Yes to to back up Lopburi3 I went through the hoop some 8 years ago & it happened exactly as Lopburi3 and the duly issued marriage certificate (2 copies his & hers) is what I use to obtain my 12 month Non Immg Visa, etc

[samran]

In all honesty, I suggest some outside advice wouldn't hurt. I don't know myself, but perhaps the NGO's who help with some of the Thai minorities who have been stripped of citizenship could help. Maybe even a legal professor or two at the local universities may be able to help/have experience in this area.

[chiangrai57020]

dseawarrior (Quote)

Good idea to not hold your breath! I hope that you are able to get this resolved in a week!

My girlfriend is Thai Yai (hilltribe, Kuhn Yuam, Mae Hong Son, but could be Thai Lue or Burmese for all I know...). It doesn't matter so much from where, the trick is that she needs to get her Tabien Baan worked out with whoever she has been living with or calling family over the years...

If she has moved around a lot that may be complicated but I assume that she has connections with her friends and family at her Ampur...

My GF has been going through all of this recently and she claims that everything to be done has already been done... Spreading dosh around would only complicate the issue she says and get the local officials greedy and jealous... She says the same thing about getting an attorney involved -- she thinks they would only want to steal money -- probably true...

My GF says to be patient. She may get her ID card/ tabien baan/ baht brachachon in a week a month, a year or maybe never...

And with the govt busy with protests, I don't know if the locals are being very diligent in getting the paperwork processed... God knows what they do all day in those administrative offices...

Good luck to you mate... We are in similar boats... Tell me if you are successful in your attempts at pushing the process along -- but be careful about pushing too hard -- could well backfire...

Chok dee na,

dseawarrior

I thought ethnic hilltribe people were excluded from financial provisions by the Ministry. Where did she come to Thailand from when she was 8, Burma?

Phone or e-mail the Ministry direct, rather than through the Amphur. Although presuming you are in Chiang Rai, they should be aware after the recently approved masses of hilltribe people. I sincerely doubt they all earned over 30,000 a month.

Hi Dragonman,

BTW, which Ministry do you have in mind? Do you have their contact info in BKK? (Ph, e-mail, website, specific names of people to contact?)...

I am fairly certain that "everything" has been done by my GF at her local amphur for her application and now she is waiting for the ministry in BKK to rubber stamp the application or whatever...

Please share a bit more so that more of this becomes more transparent to more people... ?

Thanks! This is a strange and byzantine process of Thai society... Why do they take _so_ long?

dseawarrior

Dseawarrior:

Good idea - Don't hold your breath either! My wife, a Tai Lue, is from a village that has a mix - Tai Lue and Tai Yai. I do not want to be the bearer of bad news but I was told over 3 years ago when my wife applied for her Thai Citizenship "that the Tai Yai could wait until h_ll freezes over" before Tai Yai would be granted Thai Citizenship! That statement is extremely hard to take but that is what was basically quoted to me by staff from our Amphur.

The address I wrote to that provided some results was as follows:

H.E. ACM. Kongsak Wanthana, Minister of Interior

Ministry of Interior

Thanon Atsadang

Bangkok 10200, Thailand

In my situation the Interior Ministry seemed to be more interested in what I referred to in my letter as 'a possible corruption issue regarding people wanting to help for a 'fee' to expedite the Thai Citizenship application processing for my wife'. The Ministry, it seems, is clamping down on people asking for large sums of money to 'help' people get ID Cards. This is great! BUT they did not seem to be interested in my other complaints - Work Permit, Taxes paid but 'disappeared', why no answers from Amphur staff, etc.

Good luck.

Edited March 7, 2006 by chiangrai57020

[dseawarrior]

dseawarrior (Quote)

Good idea to not hold your breath! I hope that you are able to get this resolved in a week!

My girlfriend is Thai Yai (hilltribe, Kuhn Yuam, Mae Hong Son, but could be Thai Lue or Burmese for all I know...). It doesn't matter so much from where, the trick is that she needs to get her Tabien Baan worked out with whoever she has been living with or calling family over the years...

If she has moved around a lot that may be complicated but I assume that she has connections with her friends and family at her Ampur...

My GF has been going through all of this recently and she claims that everything to be done has already been done... Spreading dosh around would only complicate the issue she says and get the local officials greedy and jealous... She says the same thing about getting an attorney involved -- she thinks they would only want to steal money -- probably true...

My GF says to be patient. She may get her ID card/ tabien baan/ baht brachachon in a week a month, a year or maybe never...

And with the govt busy with protests, I don't know if the locals are being very diligent in getting the paperwork processed... God knows what they do all day in those administrative offices...

Good luck to you mate... We are in similar boats... Tell me if you are successful in your attempts at pushing the process along -- but be careful about pushing too hard -- could well backfire...

Chok dee na,

dseawarrior

I thought ethnic hilltribe people were excluded from financial provisions by the Ministry. Where did she come to Thailand from when she was 8, Burma?

Phone or e-mail the Ministry direct, rather than through the Amphur. Although presuming you are in Chiang Rai, they should be aware after the recently approved masses of hilltribe people. I sincerely doubt they all earned over 30,000 a month.

Hi Dragonman,

BTW, which Ministry do you have in mind? Do you have their contact info in BKK? (Ph, e-mail, website, specific names of people to contact?)...

I am fairly certain that "everything" has been done by my GF at her local amphur for her application and now she is waiting for the ministry in BKK to rubber stamp the application or whatever...

Please share a bit more so that more of this becomes more transparent to more people... ?

Thanks! This is a strange and byzantine process of Thai society... Why do they take _so_ long?

dseawarrior

Dseawarrior:

Good idea - Don't hold your breath either! My wife, a Tai Lue, is from a village that has a mix - Tai Lue and Tai Yai. I do not want to be the bearer of bad news but I was told over 3 years ago when my wife applied for her Thai Citizenship "that the Tai Yai could wait until h_ll freezes over" before Tai Yai would be granted Thai Citizenship! That statement is extremely hard to take but that is what was basically quoted to me by staff from our Amphur.

The address I wrote to that provided some results was as follows:

H.E. ACM. Kongsak Wanthana, Minister of Interior

Ministry of Interior

Thanon Atsadang

Bangkok 10200, Thailand

In my situation the Interior Ministry seemed to be more interested in what I referred to in my letter as 'a possible corruption issue regarding people wanting to help for a 'fee' to expedite the Thai Citizenship application processing for my wife'. The Ministry, it seems, is clamping down on people asking for large sums of money to 'help' people get ID Cards. This is great! BUT they did not seem to be interested in my other complaints - Work Permit, Taxes paid but 'disappeared', why no answers from Amphur staff, etc.

Good luck.

Hi Chiang Rai!

Thanks for your you input! The contact info is very helpful...

Can you give more context (if possible) on this historical issue? Why are the Thai Yai so discriminated against... What have they done as a group to deserve such treatment?

As you say:

"but I was told over 3 years ago when my wife applied for her Thai Citizenship "that the Tai Yai could wait until h_ll freezes over" before Tai Yai would be granted Thai Citizenship! That statement is extremely hard to take but that is what was basically quoted to me by staff from our Amphur.

I would like to learn more about this, figure out what is strategic and helpful, and be patient a bit more... But much of this reminds me of the old Jim Crow laws that used to be on the books in the USA... Any work-arounds for this? Without an ID, my GF will never be able to get a passport and visit the USA as far as I can tell... Unless there are workarounds via the embassy and consulates...

Other thoughts and experiences out there?

Many thanks!

Dseawarrior

[gurkle]

..

Edited March 7, 2006 by gurkle

[BKK90210]

I wonder about the thai citizenship for the hilltribe people myself. We're looking to adopt one of them but without them having the citizenship how am I going do it? Hmm...do you think it possible for the thai government to issue temp passport good enough for the baby to travel and for all the embassy paper works. I'm an american so for sure the baby will have automatic US citizenship at the airport immigration.

May be just may be if this route works for the baby....there is some possibility it might work the same as your wife? By forgeting the thai citizenship all togherther and trying to get the temp passport good enough to do all the paper works and get her out of the country. Of course once she in your country the law of acquiring citizenship will be different from the baby, but at least worse come to worse she will have some citizenship eventhough it won't be thai.

[BKK90210]

I wonder about the thai citizenship for the hilltribe people myself. We're looking to adopt one of them but without them having the citizenship how am I going do it? Hmm...do you think it possible for the thai government to issue temp passport good enough for the baby to travel and for all the embassy paper works. I'm an american so for sure the baby will have automatic US citizenship at the airport immigration.

May be just may be if this route works for the baby....there is some possibility it might work the same as your wife? By forgeting the thai citizenship all togherther and trying to get the temp passport good enough to do all the paper works and get her out of the country. Of course once she in your country the law of acquiring citizenship will be different from the baby, but at least worse come to worse she will have some citizenship eventhough it won't be thai.

Any thought on this possibility?

[dseawarrior]

I wonder about the thai citizenship for the hilltribe people myself. We're looking to adopt one of them but without them having the citizenship how am I going do it? Hmm...do you think it possible for the thai government to issue temp passport good enough for the baby to travel and for all the embassy paper works. I'm an american so for sure the baby will have automatic US citizenship at the airport immigration.

May be just may be if this route works for the baby....there is some possibility it might work the same as your wife? By forgeting the thai citizenship all togherther and trying to get the temp passport good enough to do all the paper works and get her out of the country. Of course once she in your country the law of acquiring citizenship will be different from the baby, but at least worse come to worse she will have some citizenship eventhough it won't be thai.

Any thought on this possibility?

Hey BKK90210,

Brilliant idea... Know anyone who has ever done this process? I am tempted to try with my GF if I could find a road map for the process in the USA... Does one start from the Thai government side or from the USA government side???

Where does one start and who has done this before... Any experts out there? Any links to USA immigration subdepartment with this kind of specialized problem?

Refugee emergency passport options? Any fast (?) processes? Feels sometimes like we will be much older and grayer by the time a solution arises...

I was talking with my GF earlier today on "what is the big story behind all of this" and she alluded to the ideas that the Thai Yai people previously had their own kingdom (country) in what is now Thailand but that was long ago dissolved and now we have the old prejudices/ hatreds and bigotries perpetuated in the Ampur system...

Great fun... It's not hel_l, but it does seem like a bit like being in jail in your own country...

Keep the ideas flowing folks! Know any good immigration lawyers who want to share some free links or advice?

Love you all ~ this forum is amazing ~ like LOS...

dseawarrior

[lopburi3]

ISSUANCE OF TRAVEL DOCUMENT (T.D.) FOR ALIENS

I. REQUIREMENT

Aliens as listed below are eligible to apply for Travel Document (T.D.) at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Department of Consular Affairs, Visa and Travel Documents Division located on Chaengwattana Road, Bangkok 10210 , Tel. 981-7171 ext. 3202-3 direct line 575-1062-4 / Fax.575-1066 /

E-mail : [email protected] ;

- Aliens who are granted permanent residence in Thailand or those who have been denied by their own government in issuing passport or travel document

- Stateless persons

- Aliens who are granted permanent residence in Thailand under a special ten-million investment programme

II. DOCUMENTS REQUIRED

- A Residence Certificate with its copy

- A House Registration with its copy

- A Certificate of Alien with its copy

- 3 photographs (2 1/2 inches) taken within the past six months

- An application form completely filled out

III. APPLICATION FEE

500 Baht for issuing or renewal

IV. VALIDITY OF DOCUMENT

T.D. is valid for 1 year

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/12.php#a

[dseawarrior]

ISSUANCE OF TRAVEL DOCUMENT (T.D.) FOR ALIENS

I. REQUIREMENT

Aliens as listed below are eligible to apply for Travel Document (T.D.) at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Department of Consular Affairs, Visa and Travel Documents Division located on Chaengwattana Road, Bangkok 10210 , Tel. 981-7171 ext. 3202-3 direct line 575-1062-4 / Fax.575-1066 /

E-mail : [email protected] ;

- Aliens who are granted permanent residence in Thailand or those who have been denied by their own government in issuing passport or travel document

- Stateless persons

- Aliens who are granted permanent residence in Thailand under a special ten-million investment programme

II. DOCUMENTS REQUIRED

- A Residence Certificate with its copy

- A House Registration with its copy

- A Certificate of Alien with its copy

- 3 photographs (2 1/2 inches) taken within the past six months

- An application form completely filled out

III. APPLICATION FEE

500 Baht for issuing or renewal

IV. VALIDITY OF DOCUMENT

T.D. is valid for 1 year

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/12.php#a

Thanks lopburi3!

A nice gift... Do you know of the Thai language link of the same page? (I need to fish around on the Thai version of that website...)

Assuming that a GF can get all her papers together for the travel document. How long do they take for processing? Just wondering... days, weeks, years? Could I help facilitate this if I am in the LOS for only a few days, weeks? I am currently in the USA, so timing is important...

And can same travel document be used for a fiancee visa to USA, what are the restrictions to this kind of document? Could she leave but not be able to return?

I appreciate all of your help... I don't want to over milk the cow, but all insights into this are very valuable and time saving... Thanks!

Many thanks to lopburi3 and all,

dseawarrior

[lopburi3]

If you have a Royal Thai Consulate in your area they might be able to answer some of your questions as the MFA is there boss (although some Consulates can be less helpful than others). From most reports MFA is the office you would most want to do business with in Thailand as they are usually have it together.

As for validity believe it is usually used for travel to a new country and then the new country would issue same type of paper for other travel until able to obtain citizenship/passport but you can probably find a lot of information with a Google search.

[BKK90210]

Yes, I agree with having the process starts at MFA office in Thailand first. It would be a commonsense since they the one who control their embassies around the world. Any required document can be found or dealth with easier there. I couldn't even guess how long this will take as we all know about the thai government. Jai Yen Yen is the key word here.

After the process done. It would take at least 2-6 months to get your wife/gf visa to the US from the us embassy there. I think getting the visa for wife is easier than gf and less complicated. Your wife would get her temp greencard within 2 months of arrival....then in a few years she will get her permanent one and later on years along the road be eligible for the citizenship provides that she's able to read/write/understand basic english.

Good luck and keep us inform of the progress. I might try out myself for the baby as well if it's not too painful.

Chok dee mak mak na ka

Edited March 8, 2006 by BKK90210

[chiangrai57020]

ISSUANCE OF TRAVEL DOCUMENT (T.D.) FOR ALIENS

I. REQUIREMENT

Aliens as listed below are eligible to apply for Travel Document (T.D.) at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Department of Consular Affairs, Visa and Travel Documents Division located on Chaengwattana Road, Bangkok 10210 , Tel. 981-7171 ext. 3202-3 direct line 575-1062-4 / Fax.575-1066 /

E-mail : [email protected] ;

- Aliens who are granted permanent residence in Thailand or those who have been denied by their own government in issuing passport or travel document

- Stateless persons

- Aliens who are granted permanent residence in Thailand under a special ten-million investment programme

II. DOCUMENTS REQUIRED

- A Residence Certificate with its copy

- A House Registration with its copy

- A Certificate of Alien with its copy

- 3 photographs (2 1/2 inches) taken within the past six months

- An application form completely filled out

III. APPLICATION FEE

500 Baht for issuing or renewal

IV. VALIDITY OF DOCUMENT

T.D. is valid for 1 year

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/12.php#a

Thanks lopburi3!

A nice gift... Do you know of the Thai language link of the same page? (I need to fish around on the Thai version of that website...)

Assuming that a GF can get all her papers together for the travel document. How long do they take for processing? Just wondering... days, weeks, years? Could I help facilitate this if I am in the LOS for only a few days, weeks? I am currently in the USA, so timing is important...

And can same travel document be used for a fiancee visa to USA, what are the restrictions to this kind of document? Could she leave but not be able to return?

I appreciate all of your help... I don't want to over milk the cow, but all insights into this are very valuable and time saving... Thanks!

Many thanks to lopburi3 and all,

dseawarrior

Again, I do not want to be the bearer of bad news but I have been fighting the Travel Document issue for 4 years. My wife has 2 older brothers (Tai Lue) working in Bangkok (illegally) and have worked there for over 10 years. They came back to the district Ampur to apply for a Travel Document - Basicly the staff at the Ampur 'laughed at them'! Support for non-Thai Citizens at an Ampur is non-existent in Thailand.

The only reason, I believe, that my Tai Lue spouse is getting any support is because I am 'pushing'! I also realize that by 'pushing' we may loose all chances of her getting Thai Citizenship. But I am very, very polite in my correspondence and face-to-face meetings. In other words 'I'm on my knees begging these people for help'. In all my 40 years of public service I have never been put into a position where I had to 'beg' for anything - except Thailand.

Travel Documents, in my oppinion, are harder to come by than Thai Citizenship. You have to get through the 'crap' at the local Ampur first. Then you have to hope that staff at the Ministry in Bangkok are sympathic. My brother-in-laws are still attempting to get Travel Documents so that they can 'legally' travel to Bangkok for their work.

In case you are not aware. Travel 'outside your local Ampur' without a Travel Document can result in deportation and/or jail time. Luckily my wife has had a Travel Document since the age of 8 years. She can travel anywhere within Thailand in addition to travel to China, Malaysia, Sinapore, and Hong Kong with the 'Phony' passport (Travel Document) the Thai government issues. She cannot travel to any Western country, however. Western/European countries will not issue visa's using the travel documents that Tai Lue have.

Also keep in mind that if anyone is luckily enough to get a Travel Document and ID Card (Not Thai Citizen ID), check the 'Color'! Some (Most) ID cards are for identification Only and are basiclly worhtless. The 2nd item is the Travel Document - various Colors for these as well. Depending on the Color, you may only be able to travel 'within your own Chiangwad'.

The above are factual! I live in an area that have a permanent police checkpoint and if you do not have the proper documentation they either turn you away, send you back where you came from, fine you on the spot, or throw you in jail. The only people that this does not appear to apply to are 'really old people'. My wife's mother does not have a Travel Document but can travel anywhere without problems! Maybe she is just lucky!!!

Now the Tai Yai and Thai Citizenship. The only information I have is 'Heresay'. It is my understanding that the Tai Yai for many years were heavyily involved in the drug trade and therefore are a 'security risk'! Truth or rumor, I do not know. I cannot go into what I personally believe here!!!

Luck to All!

Edited March 8, 2006 by chiangrai57020

[chiangrai57020]

A True Story:

This is a story about 2 men. One married a Tai Yai woman and one married a Tai Lue woman in a country that will not be mentioned. For those that are not aware, Tai Yai and Tai Lue are classified as 'hill-tribe'.

The first one - Tai Yai. A 'foreign' man comes to 'this mystery country' on vacation. He meets and falls in love, and marries. After marrying, he goes back to his own country because of a business commitment. He returns to his wife's country, again, on a tourist visa. Upon spending more than 6 months in country on 30 day tourist visa's he decides that he wants to take his new wife to his own country to live. Now then, the first surprise! He discovers that his wife of almost a year is a Tai Yai. The policy of a 'certain' government 'in this mystery country' is that Tai Yai under no circumstances (present policy) will ever be granted Citizenship. This woman's husband (a foreigner) was not aware of this policy when he met and then married this woman. After marrying and finding out the predicament he was in he decided to try and find a way to get Citizenship for his wife. This fellow did not want to spend his whole life in 'this' country. He wanted to go back to his own country with his new wife. So he went first, to his local district office and was told, in not so polite terms, that his wife cannot get Citizenship. So he decided to go to the ministry in the big city to see if they would be helpful. Well, that was a wasted trip. What am I to do, he asks? It so happens that his wife had a Citizen 'aunt' in the big city. They go and see her. After communicating their desires the aunt decides to help. It seems as though there was a daughter of a relative, of a relative that has been 'missing' for many years. So, the new wife and husband travel to the new village. They find her new family(!) and decide to go to the local village headman and seek his help. For a few $, agreements are met and the new wife now has a new name, new family, and new house registration. The husband and his new wife head back to the big city and immediately applied for a passport for his new wife. From the time this fellow decided he wanted to go home with his new wife, rejection by the local district office to do anything for him, and the obtaining of a passport for his new wife - less than 30 days. This fellow now goes to his embassy to apply for a visa to his home country for his new wife. Obtains all the necessary applications and approvals - elapsed time less than 60 days. The embassy sets him up for an interview which will occur within another 60 days. The interview is finally accomplished with the consular official, visa approval is granted, and this fellow and his new wife is on a plane to his country the same day the visa is granted. My friend and his new wife are now sitting on their yacht off the coast of Florida with 'not a worry in the world'. From the time he was told that there was no hope of him ever getting Citizenship for his wife to landing in his home country - less than 5 months.

The second one - Tai Lue. A 'foreign' man comes to 'this mystery country' to retire. He meets and falls in love, and marries 6 months later. Now then, the first surprise! He discovers that his wife of almost a year is a Tai Lue. This woman's husband (a foreigner) assumed that all woman in this country were Citizens of the country. Never gave any thought otherwise! But, it just so happens that the government decided to allow the Tai Lue in the wife's village to apply for citizenship. Needless to say, this fellow was quite happy about this news. Three (3) years later he and his new wife are still waiting for his wife's citizenship. Of course, it took 3 years to discover that the former staff of the district office where the application was completed 'threw all the applications in the trash' and kept the many thousands of $ collected. No documentation - no proof of money collected! Well this fellow got upset and sent a letter to the ministry in the big city asking about the status of his wife's 3 year old application. The ministry sent a letter to the wife's local district office asking the same question. Oh! But you did not pay any taxes, says the headman! Oh! But we did, says I - proceeding to show him our tax receipts which were given to the wife more than 3 years previous by the same staff that walk out with the tax money! Needless to say there was a surprised look on the face of the district office headman. Oh! But your wife completed a Work Permit form stating that she has an income of 30,000 per month! I say, no she did not fill out that form, the former staff member did even as my wife was trying to explain to the staff member that my wife was a 'housewife' - not employed. But it is a required form, says the staff member. Trying to explain the difference between a 'housewife' and an 'employee' fell on deaf ears. Common sense was definitely lacking! The district headman seemed to understand the problem and indicated that it is solvable. What the eventual outcome will be - only time will tell.

What is the moral of these two stories? Let you guess!

Edited March 8, 2006 by chiangrai57020

[dseawarrior]

What the eventual outcome will be - only time will tell.

What is the moral of these two stories? Let you guess!

Hi ChiangRai,

Thanks for sharing both stories. Seems like the moral is damned if you do, damned if you don't and so much of it all depends on luck and any good karma that the GF/ wife may have accumulated with local family and village heads...

As far as I can tell, my GF has completed her thai citizenship application, it is now in the "automat" phase -- whatever that means -- I presume it means it has passsed muster at the local ampur and now is waiting approval in BKK? (Her older sister -- married to a local Thai man in Kuhn Yuam -- has already received approval on her tabien baan, and my GF's tabien baan application is attached to her older sister's application.)

Of course, I cannot read Thai and my spoken Thai is passable but I don't always comprehend the whole story...

This is a very different country from the West (USA/ Western Europe) where it seems that old scores and old grudges are still being played out. A lot of stuff seems to happen under the radar by Western standards...

One option is to chuck the old GF/ wife and start anew with a lady who has all her papers already...

But that is a very sad choice when there is a strong heart connection...

Yes, jai yen yen is the phrase of the day... There ought to be a department at the MFA that works on cases like these -- because the more I learn the more commonplace it seems to be...

Thanks to all for the helpful comments and contrasting stories... Some folks have good luck and other folks have bad luck -- le mai ru krai ben krai...

Any other comments, thoughts, suggestions out there? Many thanks!

dseawarrior

Berkeley & Chiangmai

[dseawarrior]

What is the moral of these two stories? Let you guess!

ChiangRai,

Could the "moral of these two stories" be that the rich guy gets the girl and the poor(er) guy gets to wait until hel_l freezes over?

Just a thought... Boy, this is painful sometimes...

Chok dee na?

dseawarrior

[BKK90210]

I would deal with the thai government like this….Pushing them to the limit, but not over the edge!

If nothing else good comes out at the end….At least it will show your true love and strong commitment, through endurance and self-scarifies of your valuable time and money… in this relationship.

Remember: Nothing is worth having …..without having to fight for it!.....NEVER NEVER GIVE UP!

Best of luck all

BKK

Edited March 8, 2006 by BKK90210

[lopburi3]

The link/information I provided is for MFA foreign travel document, issued by MFA. This is not a local amphur or state document and has nothing to do with internal policy or travel. I would not count it out before you try.

[Dragonman]

Whilst everyone should of course carry on with their own personal efforts, it should be realised that the UN, various International Human Rights Organisations and numerous NGO's have been banging their heads against a brick wall for 10 years. Although there was a slight effort to improve the situation recently. Mobile ID units were established primarily due to the King's efforts, but corruption is rife with numerous documented cases of "favours" being requested by local officers.

It was in fact only less than a year ago that the 1st Shan Stateless person was awarded Thai citizenship!

I don't know if anyone involved has yet contacted an NGO, but the Mirror Art Group in Chiang Rai should be able to point you in the right direction. Possibly "FORUM ASIA" or "UNPO"

Good Luck!