Lech Walesa's Homophobic Tirade

[Scott]

It seems that Lech Walesa has made some pretty strong anti-gay remarks.

Lech Walesa, Polish trade union organizer, Nobel prize winner, and
former Polish president – who was instrumental in taking on Poland’s
communist authorities in the 1970s and 1980s – apparently is not a great
fan of the gays.

Walesa was asked on Friday about gay rights, and specifically “civil
partnerships,” which I assume are a version of civil unions, and which
were recently debated in the Polish parliament, and lost.

He responded with a bit of an anti-gay tirade.

http://americablog.com/2013/03/lech-walesa-anti-gay-homophobe.html

[endure]

The question you have to ask is which organisation has a major influence on Polish life...

[rgs2001uk]

The question you have to ask is which organisation has a major influence on Polish life...

Indeed, he can probably trace his lineage back to cardinal O'brien.

[catmac]

So right, Endure. That quote from the link, "Walesa, Poland's first democratic-era president, is a deeply conservative Roman Catholic and a father of eight who has never advocated progressive social views" sums him up quite well.

I'm always amazed at the difference in attitudes between ex-communist states such as Poland and Russia on the one hand, and, say, The Czech Republic and Hungary on the other.

[tominbkk]

I've known quite a few polish people in Bangkok and almost all of them blurted out homophobic remarks at one point. It's weird.

[tombkk]

So right, Endure. That quote from the link, "Walesa, Poland's first democratic-era president, is a deeply conservative Roman Catholic and a father of eight who has never advocated progressive social views" sums him up quite well.

I'm always amazed at the difference in attitudes between ex-communist states such as Poland and Russia on the one hand, and, say, The Czech Republic and Hungary on the other.

Can you elaborate about Poland and Russia on the one hand, and Czech and Hungary on the other?

I have been living in Asia since before the fall of the Iron Curtain, and I am certainly not familiar with current developments in Europe. Your explanations are appreciated.

[LeCharivari]

Nothing to do with the end of the cold war or current developments, Tom. Its history.

They were all part of the Soviet Union (USSR), but Russia and Poland had been part of the Russian Empire for a couple of hundred years before that while Hungary and the Czech Republic (and others such as Bulgaria, Romania and Slovakia) were more recent additions.

The cultures of countries that were part of the Russian Empire and those that weren't are very different traditionally and historically.

[geriatrickid]

Nothing to do with the end of the cold war or current developments, Tom. Its history.

They were all part of the Soviet Union (USSR), but Russia and Poland had been part of the Russian Empire for a couple of hundred years before that while Hungary and the Czech Republic (and others such as Bulgaria, Romania and Slovakia) were more recent additions.

The cultures of countries that were part of the Russian Empire and those that weren't are very different traditionally and historically.

I disagree. I think if you check Poland's history, it was in a grand union with Lithuania up until Poland was carved up between the Hapsburg Empire (aka Austro-Hungarian Empire), Prussia, and Imperial Russia in 1795. As much as I would like to blame Russia for some of the Polish legacy, equal responsibility lies with our Germanic and allegedly liberal Austrian & Hungarian friends. At one time, Poland was a center of enlightenment, a liberal country back in its heyday. Poland regained its national status after WWI, only to again be invaded by the Germans and Russians in WWII. Into that gap went the church with all of its views and opinions with an embrace of many views that one would consider nasty. And yet, it was those views that kept the national spirit alive and burning to once again reassert itself once the cold war ended.

Yes, many of the older generations views are despicable, but they must taken within the context of the ignorance that characterized many generations. As Poles become integrated and exposed to more of the EU and travel the world, they are again returning to their roots of enlightenment and tolerance. Sometimes in our rush to judgement based upon relatively recent events we forget a country's noble and respectable past. Poland is known as the land where millions of jews were exterminated, and yet it had attracted all of those jews from the rest of Europe because way back when, it was the one place where jews were not massacred for fun or on a whim. My point, is that while the situation may be grim for gays in modern Poland, it will change over time. Have faith in the restorative powers of freedom and access to information. With improved living conditions will come a reduction in the hatred of those that are considered "others". An example is Germany. At one time it too was a hotbed of liberalism and being gay was not the stamp of death that occurred back in the 1930's. Today Germany is again a society of tolerance and gay acceptance. Be patient. Give Poland a chance. There was a reason why the Polish people turned their backs on Lech. Poland is a nation that wishes to move forward and not look back.

Edited March 10, 2013 by geriatrickid

[isanbirder]

Two Polish lawmakers, a gay man and a transsexual, sat on the front bench to protest against Walesa's tirade.

http://us.topnewstoday.org/san+francisco/article/4884981/

[Jingthing]

Two Polish lawmakers, a gay man and a transsexual, sat on the front bench to protest against Walesa's tirade.

http://us.topnewstoday.org/san+francisco/article/4884981/

Good on them for protesting but you know that Anna Grodzka is one homely ladyman!

OK, sorry for being so superficial, and she is kind of cute in her own special way.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Jingthing

[rgs2001uk]

So right, Endure. That quote from the link, "Walesa, Poland's first democratic-era president, is a deeply conservative Roman Catholic and a father of eight who has never advocated progressive social views" sums him up quite well.

I'm always amazed at the difference in attitudes between ex-communist states such as Poland and Russia on the one hand, and, say, The Czech Republic and Hungary on the other.

Can you elaborate about Poland and Russia on the one hand, and Czech and Hungary on the other?

I have been living in Asia since before the fall of the Iron Curtain, and I am certainly not familiar with current developments in Europe. Your explanations are appreciated.

You could do worse than have a look at the religions that are practised, Church of Rome or not?

Heres an insight into what the Russians inherited and managed to keep under control til the wall came down.

http://lastochka-fromrussiawithlove.blogspot.com/2008/11/atrocities-of-croatian-fascists-ustase.html

http://articles.philly.com/1991-09-25/news/25799889_1_croats-ustashe-yugoslavia

Often not mentioned when mentioning WW2 attrocities, sickened even the Nazis.

[Jingthing]

For those who can't get enough of Anna, here's a great slide show:

http://www.fakt.pl/Internauci-nabijaja-sie-z-Anny-Grodzkiej-Anna-Grodzka-jak-postac-ze-Shreka-Anna-Grodzka-porownana-do-bohaterki-bajki-,galeria-artykulu,193889,1.html

[tombkk]

Nothing to do with the end of the cold war or current developments, Tom. Its history.

They were all part of the Soviet Union (USSR), but Russia and Poland had been part of the Russian Empire for a couple of hundred years before that while Hungary and the Czech Republic (and others such as Bulgaria, Romania and Slovakia) were more recent additions.

The cultures of countries that were part of the Russian Empire and those that weren't are very different traditionally and historically.

Really? Poland, Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Romania and Slovakia were part of the USSR? And that's apart from the fact there was country called Czechoslovakia during the Cold War. Why don't you mention Yugoslavia? Was that a Soviet Republic too, or can't you recite the countries into which it disintegrated?

What you call history was still the present political and geographical reality when I went to school. And believe me, the world did change after the end of the Cold War.

The German Democratic Republic (East Germany, to make it simple) abandoned anti-gay legislation (introduced by the Nazis to Germany and a heritage to both Germanies at the time) much earlier than the Federal Republic of Germany (known at the time as West Germany).

[tombkk]

So right, Endure. That quote from the link, "Walesa, Poland's first democratic-era president, is a deeply conservative Roman Catholic and a father of eight who has never advocated progressive social views" sums him up quite well.

I'm always amazed at the difference in attitudes between ex-communist states such as Poland and Russia on the one hand, and, say, The Czech Republic and Hungary on the other.

Can you elaborate about Poland and Russia on the one hand, and Czech and Hungary on the other?

I have been living in Asia since before the fall of the Iron Curtain, and I am certainly not familiar with current developments in Europe. Your explanations are appreciated.

You could do worse than have a look at the religions that are practised, Church of Rome or not?

Heres an insight into what the Russians inherited and managed to keep under control til the wall came down.

http://lastochka-fromrussiawithlove.blogspot.com/2008/11/atrocities-of-croatian-fascists-ustase.html

http://articles.philly.com/1991-09-25/news/25799889_1_croats-ustashe-yugoslavia

Often not mentioned when mentioning WW2 attrocities, sickened even the Nazis.

I'm sorry, the links don't work over here. Could you give a summary?

[tombkk]

For those who can't get enough of Anna, here's a great slide show:

http://www.fakt.pl/Internauci-nabijaja-sie-z-Anny-Grodzkiej-Anna-Grodzka-jak-postac-ze-Shreka-Anna-Grodzka-porownana-do-bohaterki-bajki-,galeria-artykulu,193889,1.html

She has earned my respect.

[rgs2001uk]

So right, Endure. That quote from the link, "Walesa, Poland's first democratic-era president, is a deeply conservative Roman Catholic and a father of eight who has never advocated progressive social views" sums him up quite well.

I'm always amazed at the difference in attitudes between ex-communist states such as Poland and Russia on the one hand, and, say, The Czech Republic and Hungary on the other.

Can you elaborate about Poland and Russia on the one hand, and Czech and Hungary on the other?

I have been living in Asia since before the fall of the Iron Curtain, and I am certainly not familiar with current developments in Europe. Your explanations are appreciated.

You could do worse than have a look at the religions that are practised, Church of Rome or not?

Heres an insight into what the Russians inherited and managed to keep under control til the wall came down.

http://lastochka-fromrussiawithlove.blogspot.com/2008/11/atrocities-of-croatian-fascists-ustase.html

http://articles.philly.com/1991-09-25/news/25799889_1_croats-ustashe-yugoslavia

Often not mentioned when mentioning WW2 attrocities, sickened even the Nazis.

I'm sorry, the links don't work over here. Could you give a summary?

Try here for starters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e

[rgs2001uk]

^^^^^^^,

heres another,

[rgs2001uk]

^^^^^,

yet another,

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2010/0402/Croatia-should-apologize-for-World-War-II-genocide-before-joining-the-EU

Taken from the above to give an insight,

When Hitler’s forces invaded Yugoslavia
in the spring of 1941, Croatian right-wing extremists, under the
leadership of Ante Pavelic and his fascist “Ustashi” movement, were
given control of Croatia. Pavelic aligned the country enthusiastically
to the Nazi cause and immediately launched a horrific onslaught against
the Serbian minority. The official policy was popularly expressed as:
Kill one-third of the Serbs, convert another third to Roman Catholicism,
and expel the remaining third from Croatia.

The Roman Catholic Church
insists it condemned the atrocities, but the record suggests a mix of
official responses, ranging from weak condemnations to tacit support.
While the killing was under way, the Croatian archbishop, Aloysius Stepanic, blessed the new regime and Pavelic was granted an audience with Pope Pius XII.
A number of Franciscan monks participated in the killing. After the war
ended, the Vatican helped Ustashi criminals evade capture and flee to South America.

Ref the above fleeing criminals, Avro Manhattan exposes this in his book, The Dollar And The Vatican.

read here for more on AM,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Manhattan

Edited March 10, 2013 by rgs2001uk

[endure]

The German Democratic Republic (East Germany, to make it simple) abandoned anti-gay legislation (introduced by the Nazis to Germany and a heritage to both Germanies at the time) much earlier than the Federal Republic of Germany (known at the time as West Germany).

Paragraph 175 was introduced into the German Penal Code in 1871 - long before the Nazis arrived on the scene. They did amend it but they didn't introduce it.

Sorry for the lack of proper quotes. This new software is driving me bonkers.

[geriatrickid]

For those who can't get enough of Anna, here's a great slide show:

http://www.fakt.pl/Internauci-nabijaja-sie-z-Anny-Grodzkiej-Anna-Grodzka-jak-postac-ze-Shreka-Anna-Grodzka-porownana-do-bohaterki-bajki-,galeria-artykulu,193889,1.html

Where's the fashion police when you need them? That person needs a serious makeover. Start with the hairdo.

Ok, appreciably she's in the granny sector and looks the same like any other elderly grandma from the former east bloc, but jiminey cricket, give me a Thai ladyboy any day of the week. Yea, yea, I know, a very ageist remark, but one cannot deny that a great many Thai ladyboys are pretty. I find big boned gals a bit intimidating. In any case, considering her size, I'd like to see someone try and pick a fight with her. She'd splatter them.

Here's an article from 2010 on the gay pride event in Warsaw. This should give some hope to those feeling down. 3 years on and I'd say there have been some incremental advances. It takes time to build tolerance.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jul/19/poland-gay-pride-warsaw

[LeCharivari]

Nothing to do with the end of the cold war or current developments, Tom. Its history.

They were all part of the Soviet Union (USSR), but Russia and Poland had been part of the Russian Empire for a couple of hundred years before that while Hungary and the Czech Republic (and others such as Bulgaria, Romania and Slovakia) were more recent additions.

The cultures of countries that were part of the Russian Empire and those that weren't are very different traditionally and historically.

Really? Poland, Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Romania and Slovakia were part of the USSR? And that's apart from the fact there was country called Czechoslovakia during the Cold War. Why don't you mention Yugoslavia? Was that a Soviet Republic too, or can't you recite the countries into which it disintegrated?

What you call history was still the present political and geographical reality when I went to school. And believe me, the world did change after the end of the Cold War.

The German Democratic Republic (East Germany, to make it simple) abandoned anti-gay legislation (introduced by the Nazis to Germany and a heritage to both Germanies at the time) much earlier than the Federal Republic of Germany (known at the time as West Germany).

I was trying to keep it simple, Tom, not only for the benefit of those whose access to news and current affairs appears to have been limited fora couple of decades but to avoid turning this thread into a review of the differences between the Soviet Union, Soviet bloc, Eastern bloc and the Warsaw Pact - rather like referring to the DDR as East Germany.

Evidently I failed.

[LeCharivari]

As much as I would like to blame Russia for some of the Polish legacy, equal responsibility lies with our Germanic and allegedly liberal Austrian & Hungarian friends. At one time, Poland was a center of enlightenment, a liberal country back in its heyday.

I agree with you, GK (and I've only edited your post to avoid repeating myself unnecessarily), but unfortunately that period of enlightenment only lasted two decades rather than two centuries.

[LeCharivari]

The German Democratic Republic (East Germany, to make it simple) abandoned anti-gay legislation (introduced by the Nazis to Germany and a heritage to both Germanies at the time) much earlier than the Federal Republic of Germany (known at the time as West Germany).

Paragraph 175 was introduced into the German Penal Code in 1871 - long before the Nazis arrived on the scene. They did amend it but they didn't introduce it.

Sorry for the lack of proper quotes. This new software is driving me bonkers.

Agreed, endure. The subject of German persecution of gays for the past couple of hundred years, on a par with that in Britain despite a few enlightened individuals, has been covered here in a number of contexts.

The treatment of gays in Germany as sub-normal has continued into this millenia, with gays until recently only being allowed to serve in the military as conscripts, but not as volunteers eligible for promotion or in any position of authority or responsibility, nor trusted to serve in

combat.

[tombkk]

Nothing to do with the end of the cold war or current developments, Tom. Its history.

They were all part of the Soviet Union (USSR), but Russia and Poland had been part of the Russian Empire for a couple of hundred years before that while Hungary and the Czech Republic (and others such as Bulgaria, Romania and Slovakia) were more recent additions.

The cultures of countries that were part of the Russian Empire and those that weren't are very different traditionally and historically.

Really? Poland, Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Romania and Slovakia were part of the USSR? And that's apart from the fact there was country called Czechoslovakia during the Cold War. Why don't you mention Yugoslavia? Was that a Soviet Republic too, or can't you recite the countries into which it disintegrated?

What you call history was still the present political and geographical reality when I went to school. And believe me, the world did change after the end of the Cold War.

The German Democratic Republic (East Germany, to make it simple) abandoned anti-gay legislation (introduced by the Nazis to Germany and a heritage to both Germanies at the time) much earlier than the Federal Republic of Germany (known at the time as West Germany).

I was trying to keep it simple, Tom, not only for the benefit of those whose access to news and current affairs appears to have been limited fora couple of decades but to avoid turning this thread into a review of the differences between the Soviet Union, Soviet bloc, Eastern bloc and the Warsaw Pact - rather like referring to the DDR as East Germany.

Evidently I failed.

No problem. It sounded like you'd said I didn't know "history" while referring to a time period which I have personally experienced. That made me look old, hence my gut reaction.