Thai Railways Set Eyes On Dual Track System

[Bagwan]

LISTEN up Thai railways.....

THE TRACKS ARE TOO NARROW AND TOO UNEAVEN FOR HIGH SPEED.

Adding one more track to the existing one will RESAULT IN DOUBLING THE ACIDENTS

My limited knowledge of railways BUT I feel that dual tracks -OK the narrow rail does NOT seem to be a good Idea for high speed. They have one track on most routes but surely this will have to be replaced, old sleapers still laid and tristed uneven-as the above poster said. This money could be used for double track wide gauge, that 2 trillion + would still cover the rest-infrastructure. BUT again if a percent were to be MISSING then my upgrade would be too expensive.

Your terminology is wrong, confusing standard gauge and wide. Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge

Again, changing gauge is an immensely complicated and expensive process requiring system shutdown or very detailed planning (not likely here!), and a complete replacement of rolling stock, widening of bridges, tunnels, alteration of many stations. It is not likely to happen IMHO.

In 1892 conversion of the last 177 miles of broad gauge track to standard gauge on the London to Penzance route was completed in two days. 4200 platelayers and gangers were employed. Work was commenced at daybreak on 21st May and completed at 0445 on the 23rd. Tough, hard men those Victorians.

[OzMick]

LISTEN up Thai railways.....

THE TRACKS ARE TOO NARROW AND TOO UNEAVEN FOR HIGH SPEED.

Adding one more track to the existing one will RESAULT IN DOUBLING THE ACIDENTS

My limited knowledge of railways BUT I feel that dual tracks -OK the narrow rail does NOT seem to be a good Idea for high speed. They have one track on most routes but surely this will have to be replaced, old sleapers still laid and tristed uneven-as the above poster said. This money could be used for double track wide gauge, that 2 trillion + would still cover the rest-infrastructure. BUT again if a percent were to be MISSING then my upgrade would be too expensive.

Your terminology is wrong, confusing standard gauge and wide. Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge

Again, changing gauge is an immensely complicated and expensive process requiring system shutdown or very detailed planning (not likely here!), and a complete replacement of rolling stock, widening of bridges, tunnels, alteration of many stations. It is not likely to happen IMHO.

In 1892 conversion of the last 177 miles of broad gauge track to standard gauge on the London to Penzance route was completed in two days. 4200 platelayers and gangers were employed. Work was commenced at daybreak on 21st May and completed at 0445 on the 23rd. Tough, hard men those Victorians.

While an impressive feat, you have to remember that they only had to re-lay one rail on existing bed and wooden sleepers (I assume).

Edited March 16, 2013 by OzMick

[jamhar]

Its probably a good idea,

but man would i like to see a business plan.

I'm assuming they've done a feasibility study,

and cost/benefit tradeoffs?

Any tunneling required?

Elevated tracks for flood planes?

Tsunami warning plan for the peninsula tracks?

Why am I suddenly very concerned?

[Lakegeneve]

There will be lots more accidents at unmanned rail crossings, as the Thais will

only look one way, if at all, Yes I can beat it !!

regards Worgeordie

A recent special report in that other english nation paper stated that according to SRT figures, there have been 887 accidents reported at railway crossings in the last 6 years resulting in 297 deaths & 979 injured.

Along with the nearly 2000 (1938) official crossings there are 562 unauthorised crossings commonly used by locals which they make themselves to avoid extra travel.

The dual tracking program seeks also to eliminate the majority of unofficial crossings and improve those official ones that do not have adequate barriers.

The problem is that is drivers are going to be lazy and stupid and cross where they shouldn't, ignore signals or not even look then there is not much SRT officials can do.

[Lakegeneve]

As member Lakegeneve posted the SRT already has a plan to upgrade existing lines to dual rail track. As far as I know costs have been budgetted although maybe not secured for the full period.

The part of the 2.2 trillion THB budget which deals with new tracks is mainly related to 800++ billion in high speed rail. That's separate from the dual tracking upgrade.

With all the confusing and conflicting announcements by various government and cabinet people I might be wrong though :-)

Congrats, you are one of the few people that can seemingly cut through the puff and understand information which has been widely reported even with the common problem of thai misreporting and officialdom obfuscation.

[Lakegeneve]

Thanks Lakegeneve for posting information that makes sense.

The Op is just another talking head giving his take on the part of the infrastructure project that applies to the existing railway network.

I'd love to see a full project implementation plan with realistic dates.

Does the table not give exactly that? (Though the ubiquitous caveat with any timetable of implentation of anything in Thailand is that dates usually slide)

[Lakegeneve]

LISTEN up Thai railways.....

THE TRACKS ARE TOO NARROW AND TOO UNEAVEN FOR HIGH SPEED.

Adding one more track to the existing one will RESAULT IN DOUBLING THE ACIDENTS

My limited knowledge of railways BUT I feel that dual tracks -OK the narrow rail does NOT seem to be a good Idea for high speed. They have one track on most routes but surely this will have to be replaced, old sleapers still laid and tristed uneven-as the above poster said. This money could be used for double track wide gauge, that 2 trillion + would still cover the rest-infrastructure. BUT again if a percent were to be MISSING then my upgrade would be too expensive.

To add, I have seen so many different announcements I am tottally confused. 2 days ago on Thai television a transport spokesman said they will use existing tracks, abve poster says new double tracks, another report says to convert to wide gauge, and so on. please give us the actual plan, on the definate intention. Is there one---for sure ratified. ??

I'd be very interest to understand exactly what the MOT spokesperson said? Could you please recount the whole statement and the context? What report talks about wide gauge??? No one has ever talked about wide gauge.

Obviously, it is not uncommon for a politician or govt spokesperson to give incorrect info nor for the thai press to regurgitate such without fact checking or undertaking some basic background checking. (One of the consistent problems on TV is that many respond to information in media stories that are posted as if everything in the article is factual when most of the time the story is poorly written with key info missing. However, let's not discuss the quality of thai journalism)

This is a thread about the double tracking program of the existing 4000km of narrow gauge NOT the newly proposed HSR standard gauge lines so I am loath to change the topic given the wealth of previous threads in the thai news section on HSR. I think that people may get confused as the SRT had previous plans to standardise and electrify the whole network but the new HSR lines will achieve that.

However, some basic points on the HSR program;

1) HSR will be entirely new lines that are standard gauge built without road crossings for obvious reasons (see post above)

2) Yes there will be corruption in the budget as there is with EVERY SINGLE PROJECT in Thailand. Be it a new highway, building or painting a pedestrian bridge. Just accept that as fact given the highly normalised nature of such in the region.

3) Whatever the construction timetable expect is to slide. Dates always change here, everyone knows that.

4) The HSR lines will be built for 250km operation, so expect operating speeds of around 220-250km. Some are stating 300-350km but this is not currently the plan. Some politicians mention the later figure on occasion but that is about politics.

5) The new Bang Sue Terminal for Intercity trains is finally about to start construction. It will be the terminus for the N, NE & S HSR lines (though still a small chance that the South line will use for Hualumphong depending on the final route that is slected). The Makkasan City Air Terminal will be the terminus for the HSR East/Rayong line which will use the current Airport Line.

6) Most likely the SRT won't run these lines as a new special purpose organisation will be established.

7) Companies from Germany, France, Japan, China and Taiwan have all expressed interest in bidding for the contracts.

7) Everything can & will change. These HSR plans are not new. First proposed in the mid 90s they have been deferred, expanded and changed with each new govt. Plans will change, govts will change, problems will arise. Show me a major project anywhere in the world which is problem free at all stages,

First tender: The current plan is for the first tender to be out in late 2013 (85km fully elevated section from Bang Sue Terminal to Ban Phachi Junction north of Ayuthaya, 35 billion baht, 5 years).

Thereafter, the line to Korat, the Rayong line, lastly the line to Hua Hin.

Chiang Mai HSR line: This will form the initial section of Phase 1 of the Chiang Mai line to P'lok (382km, 112 billion baht to be completed by 2019) http://www.thaihispeedtrain.com/chiangmai/files/doc9.pdf . Phse 2 to CM to be completed by

NE HSR line: The first phase of the line to Nong Khai will be to Korat (256km, 92 billion baht, 5 yrs)

http://www.thaihispeedtrain-korat.com/update1.php

Rayong HSR line: To be built to Chonburi & Pattaya 1st. Uses 25km of the current airport line, (196km, 72 billion baht, 5 yrs) Note that the Airport line is being extended to DMK (Thus all HSR lines will be connected).

South HSR line: The first part of the south HSR line will be to Hua HIn (189-225km billion baht, 5yrs). Note that the final route of 4 options has not selected thus figures cannot be confirmed. http://www.thaihispeedtrain.com/huahin/file/doc19.pdf

http://www.thaihispeedtrain.com/

The Dems wanted to start with the Rayong HSR line, had they won the 2011 election work would have started last year. PT obviously wanted to change the plans and start with the North and NE lines (esp with the Chinese being keen on this line being built) so they reviewed the plans which took some time.

[ginjag]

LISTEN up Thai railways.....

THE TRACKS ARE TOO NARROW AND TOO UNEAVEN FOR HIGH SPEED.

Adding one more track to the existing one will RESAULT IN DOUBLING THE ACIDENTS

My limited knowledge of railways BUT I feel that dual tracks -OK the narrow rail does NOT seem to be a good Idea for high speed. They have one track on most routes but surely this will have to be replaced, old sleapers still laid and tristed uneven-as the above poster said. This money could be used for double track wide gauge, that 2 trillion + would still cover the rest-infrastructure. BUT again if a percent were to be MISSING then my upgrade would be too expensive.

To add, I have seen so many different announcements I am tottally confused. 2 days ago on Thai television a transport spokesman said they will use existing tracks, abve poster says new double tracks, another report says to convert to wide gauge, and so on. please give us the actual plan, on the definate intention. Is there one---for sure ratified. ??

I'd be very interest to understand exactly what the MOT spokesperson said? Could you please recount the whole statement and the context? What report talks about wide gauge??? No one has ever talked about wide gauge.

Obviously, it is not uncommon for a politician or govt spokesperson to give incorrect info nor for the thai press to regurgitate such without fact checking or undertaking some basic background checking. (One of the consistent problems on TV is that many respond to information in media stories that are posted as if everything in the article is factual when most of the time the story is poorly written with key info missing. However, let's not discuss the quality of thai journalism)

This is a thread about the double tracking program of the existing 4000km of narrow gauge NOT the newly proposed HSR standard gauge lines so I am loath to change the topic given the wealth of previous threads in the thai news section on HSR. I think that people may get confused as the SRT had previous plans to standardise and electrify the whole network but the new HSR lines will achieve that.

However, some basic points on the HSR program;

1) HSR will be entirely new lines that are standard gauge built without road crossings for obvious reasons (see post above)

2) Yes there will be corruption in the budget as there is with EVERY SINGLE PROJECT in Thailand. Be it a new highway, building or painting a pedestrian bridge. Just accept that as fact given the highly normalised nature of such in the region.

3) Whatever the construction timetable expect is to slide. Dates always change here, everyone knows that.

4) The HSR lines will be built for 250km operation, so expect operating speeds of around 220-250km. Some are stating 300-350km but this is not currently the plan. Some politicians mention the later figure on occasion but that is about politics.

5) The new Bang Sue Terminal for Intercity trains is finally about to start construction. It will be the terminus for the N, NE & S HSR lines (though still a small chance that the South line will use for Hualumphong depending on the final route that is slected). The Makkasan City Air Terminal will be the terminus for the HSR East/Rayong line which will use the current Airport Line.

6) Most likely the SRT won't run these lines as a new special purpose organisation will be established.

7) Companies from Germany, France, Japan, China and Taiwan have all expressed interest in bidding for the contracts.

7) Everything can & will change. These HSR plans are not new. First proposed in the mid 90s they have been deferred, expanded and changed with each new govt. Plans will change, govts will change, problems will arise. Show me a major project anywhere in the world which is problem free at all stages,

First tender: The current plan is for the first tender to be out in late 2013 (85km fully elevated section from Bang Sue Terminal to Ban Phachi Junction north of Ayuthaya, 35 billion baht, 5 years).

Thereafter, the line to Korat, the Rayong line, lastly the line to Hua Hin.

Chiang Mai HSR line: This will form the initial section of Phase 1 of the Chiang Mai line to P'lok (382km, 112 billion baht to be completed by 2019) http://www.thaihispeedtrain.com/chiangmai/files/doc9.pdf . Phse 2 to CM to be completed by

NE HSR line: The first phase of the line to Nong Khai will be to Korat (256km, 92 billion baht, 5 yrs)

http://www.thaihispeedtrain-korat.com/update1.php

Rayong HSR line: To be built to Chonburi & Pattaya 1st. Uses 25km of the current airport line, (196km, 72 billion baht, 5 yrs) Note that the Airport line is being extended to DMK (Thus all HSR lines will be connected).

South HSR line: The first part of the south HSR line will be to Hua HIn (189-225km billion baht, 5yrs). Note that the final route of 4 options has not selected thus figures cannot be confirmed. http://www.thaihispeedtrain.com/huahin/file/doc19.pdf

http://www.thaihispeedtrain.com/

The Dems wanted to start with the Rayong HSR line, had they won the 2011 election work would have started last year. PT obviously wanted to change the plans and start with the North and NE lines (esp with the Chinese being keen on this line being built) so they reviewed the plans which took some time.

The last info that confused me was on true vision, IN channel. PsI. Thai-but English spoken. programme ON THE GRID, and the morning programme Rise and Shine. Unless I was mistaken, OLD AGE.

[DekDaeng]

Let's hope they have some air con in the carriages other than having the window down...

Mee!

[OzMick]

What a grand concept! Instead of class designated carriages (1st, 2nd and 3rd), we'll have completely separate railway systems. HSR for those that "count", and the old system for freight and the peasants.

[Mosha]

Suppose Thailand will have to wait for the Chinese to build it -like the Japanese built the Burma railway....

I think you'll find the Japanese didn't lift a finger, in manual labour

Any many of the guards were impressed Koreans. The Japanese officers and NCO's didn't treat them too kindly either. You don't put trained front line troops to guarding prisons. Could you imagine the oriental version of Private Schultz in harm's way?

One of those shit travels down hill things. The Japs slapped the Koreans. The Koreans slapped the POWs

[DekDaeng]

A waste of money to build a HSR to Pattaya and Rayong. Would never even get up to speed. A medium speed train would be enough - under 2 hrs BKK to Pattaya - say 1.5 hrs -

Edited March 21, 2013 by DekDaeng

[Lakegeneve]

A waste of money to build a HSR to Pattaya and Rayong. Would never even get up to speed. A medium speed train would be enough - under 2 hrs BKK to Pattaya - say 1.5 hrs -

Can you clarify what you mean by "never get up to speed" as it doesn't make sense???

Waste of money? This will be a goldmine once it opens. The potential pax is huge given the amount of people who travel to the eastern seaboard. As it is for Korat as a gateway for all of the Isan travel.

Pax numbers will be significant if you could travel to Chonburi in around 45 mins and Pattaya in just over an hour, that would kill off most of the demand for buses and dangerous vans. Not to mention the many taxis overcharging to both locations. Consider the amount of traffic currently traveling to both locations and then factor in future demand.

[sprq]

Ah, finally, about 80 years late. Did you enjoy your long slumber, SRT?

[sprq]

A waste of money to build a HSR to Pattaya and Rayong. Would never even get up to speed. A medium speed train would be enough - under 2 hrs BKK to Pattaya - say 1.5 hrs -

Can you clarify what you mean by "never get up to speed" as it doesn't make sense???

Waste of money? This will be a goldmine once it opens. The potential pax is huge given the amount of people who travel to the eastern seaboard. As it is for Korat as a gateway for all of the Isan travel.

Pax numbers will be significant if you could travel to Chonburi in around 45 mins and Pattaya in just over an hour, that would kill off most of the demand for buses and dangerous vans. Not to mention the many taxis overcharging to both locations. Consider the amount of traffic currently traveling to both locations and then factor in future demand.

Nobody in the world builds high-speed railways for such short journeys. It is a gross waste of money giving little advantage over express trains which could be implemented to run on the existing line, converted to double track, at a fraction of the cost.

[mok199]

highball.!!!!

[hellodolly]

Suppose Thailand will have to wait for the Chinese to build it -like the Japanese built the Burma railway....

I think you'll find the Japanese didn't lift a finger, in manual labour

Any many of the guards were impressed Koreans. The Japanese officers and NCO's didn't treat them too kindly either. You don't put trained front line troops to guarding prisons. Could you imagine the oriental version of Private Schultz in harm's way?

On a side note when the railway was done the Japanese took over from the

Koreans and the treatment of the prisoners who had built it got better.

[Thereisnoif]

A waste of money to build a HSR to Pattaya and Rayong. Would never even get up to speed. A medium speed train would be enough - under 2 hrs BKK to Pattaya - say 1.5 hrs -

You obviously have no grasp of the topic what you are discussing .