Yellow 95 Goes As Well?

[gentaro]

A few weeks ago I posted a topic with regard to fuel requirements for big bikes and the problems arising with the elimination of benzene 91. Obviously the problem is not only for big bike owners but everyone riding a carburator engine.

At that time it seemed, and I read in various forums, that PTT had "comitted" to supply benzine 95 (marked yellow) at a high price though - fair enough, everything has it's price. Now I notice that most of the PTT stations which were selling the yellow 95 in the past weeks no longer have it.

Caltex still sells benzene 95 and Susco but not Esso or Shell. Shell staff told me that the Shell V-Power Nitro + is benzene 95 but I have my doubts when I compare the price of Caltex benzene 95 with the Nitro + .... big discrepancy in favour of the Shell Nitro +, consequently I assume it is a gasohol "with a kick".

Does anybody hear what the future will bring regarding benzine 95 and what this Shell V-Power Nitro + really is?

[taninthai]

Little of topic but it seems to me since benzine dissapeared they seem to have put the price of gasohol up by a couple of bht/litre,bit of a sly move by the government me thinks.

Benzine 95 at 50 bht a litre forget about it that's about £1.20 a litre and there was me thinking I was in se asia

[Rickster]

V Power Nitro+ is basically glorified 95 gasohol hence the price compared to Susco and Caltex 95 gasoline....

Edited March 20, 2013 by Rickster

[BSJ]

My PCX150 has developed a little pinging noise (hard to put in words, maybe it's a snort!) after I go around a corner off the throttle and then open the throttle. Never did it on benzene 91.

[wantan]

I haven't noticed any change in availability of Benzine 95. But i am a bit annoyed of this topic. If someday Benzine 95 is gone than OK, i can live with it. Imo gasohol is nonsense, but many things in the world move in the wrong direction

Little of topic but it seems to me since benzine dissapeared they seem to have put the price of gasohol up by a couple of bht/litre,bit of a sly move by the government me thinks.
Benzine 95 at 50 bht a litre forget about it that's about £1.20 a litre and there was me thinking I was in se asia

Never saw Benzine 95 for 50 Baht, i pay 47 Baht: http://www.eppo.go.th/retail_prices.html

But yes, thats a lot

[Richard-BKK]

Actual a RON 95 fuel should never be considered as a replacement for a RON 91 fuel, especially when the manufacture specific tells to use RON 91, the combustion of a higher octane fuel, as RON 95 is controlled by chemicals to not ignite at a certain (lower compression). While not much highly flammable fuel can resist get ignited by an open flame provided by the spark plug.

But an engine optimized for running on RON 91 fuel will not burn its fuel if it's running on RON 95 fuel. Actual, Honda if Honda finds RON 95 as a source of engine failure all warranty claims will be ignored... Honda now claims that 60% of all Honda motorcycle engine failures find it source in the wrong fuel.

If you use RON 95 fuel in a RON 91 engine the fuel is not burned as it was intended, it will produce more environmental contamination, and while the environment is maybe not on everybody mind the extra particles produced also clog sensors and is a source to clog fuel intake... making the engine run lean and giving the owner a feeling that the RON 95 fuel is increasing performance while it's actual burning the engine beyond repair and warranty....

According to some Honda mechanics I spoke to at a technical information meeting, the latest, Honda Wave 125i also revered to as version 4 (currently on sales) has an ingenious way to tell (by using several sensors) that it was used with RON 95 fuel.... and for how long...

If Honda is using this in the current generation of the PGM-FI, you could also expect similar data collected from PGM-FI units from the same generation in other motorcycles....

Edited March 20, 2013 by Richard-BKK

[gentaro]

I haven't noticed any change in availability of Benzine 95. But i am a bit annoyed of this topic. If someday Benzine 95 is gone than OK, i can live with it. Imo gasohol is nonsense, but many things in the world move in the wrong direction

Guess everyone is "a bit annoyed" since it changes things for many people using motorbikes. I am not okay when I need to drive 20-30 km to find a petrol station with benzine. As you know, since you follow the subject, old bikes definetely will have problems when they use gasohol for a longer time, in particular everything with a carburator.

Little of topic but it seems to me since benzine dissapeared they seem to have put the price of gasohol up by a couple of bht/litre,bit of a sly move by the government me thinks.

Benzine 95 at 50 bht a litre forget about it that's about £1.20 a litre and there was me thinking I was in se asia

Never saw Benzine 95 for 50 Baht, i pay 47 Baht: http://www.eppo.go.th/retail_prices.html

But yes, thats a lot

[Rickster]

Actual a RON 95 fuel should never be considered as a replacement for a RON 91 fuel, especially when the manufacture specific tells to use RON 91, the combustion of a higher octane fuel, as RON 95 is controlled by chemicals to not ignite at a certain (lower compression). While not much highly flammable fuel can resist get ignited by an open flame provided by the spark plug.

But an engine optimized for running on RON 91 fuel will not burn its fuel if it's running on RON 95 fuel. Actual, Honda if Honda finds RON 95 as a source of engine failure all warranty claims will be ignored... Honda now claims that 60% of all Honda motorcycle engine failures find it source in the wrong fuel.

If you use RON 95 fuel in a RON 91 engine the fuel is not burned as it was intended, it will produce more environmental contamination, and while the environment is maybe not on everybody mind the extra particles produced also clog sensors and is a source to clog fuel intake... making the engine run lean and giving the owner a feeling that the RON 95 fuel is increasing performance while it's actual burning the engine beyond repair and warranty....

According to some Honda mechanics I spoke to at a technical information meeting, the latest, Honda Wave 125i also revered to as version 4 (currently on sales) has an ingenious way to tell (by using several sensors) that it was used with RON 95 fuel.... and for how long...

If Honda is using this in the current generation of the PGM-FI, you could also expect similar data collected from PGM-FI units from the same generation in other motorcycles....

Ok all well and good, so care to explain why bikes rated for RON 91 run perfectly fine on 91 Benzine but pink like a bastrad and generally run like a bag of shit on 91 gasohol. Consumers can only obey the sticker on the fuel filler cap....clearly marked 91????

[jbrain]

Actual a RON 95 fuel should never be considered as a replacement for a RON 91 fuel, especially when the manufacture specific tells to use RON 91, the combustion of a higher octane fuel, as RON 95 is controlled by chemicals to not ignite at a certain (lower compression). While not much highly flammable fuel can resist get ignited by an open flame provided by the spark plug.

But an engine optimized for running on RON 91 fuel will not burn its fuel if it's running on RON 95 fuel. Actual, Honda if Honda finds RON 95 as a source of engine failure all warranty claims will be ignored... Honda now claims that 60% of all Honda motorcycle engine failures find it source in the wrong fuel.

If you use RON 95 fuel in a RON 91 engine the fuel is not burned as it was intended, it will produce more environmental contamination, and while the environment is maybe not on everybody mind the extra particles produced also clog sensors and is a source to clog fuel intake... making the engine run lean and giving the owner a feeling that the RON 95 fuel is increasing performance while it's actual burning the engine beyond repair and warranty....

According to some Honda mechanics I spoke to at a technical information meeting, the latest, Honda Wave 125i also revered to as version 4 (currently on sales) has an ingenious way to tell (by using several sensors) that it was used with RON 95 fuel.... and for how long...

If Honda is using this in the current generation of the PGM-FI, you could also expect similar data collected from PGM-FI units from the same generation in other motorcycles....

Ok all well and good, so care to explain why bikes rated for RON 91 run perfectly fine on 91 Benzine but pink like a bastrad and generally run like a bag of shit on 91 gasohol. Consumers can only obey the sticker on the fuel filler cap....clearly marked 91????

You beat me to it, just wanted to ask the same question. I have a big bike, fuel injected, that is designed for 91 gasoline but makes a lot of pinging with 91 Gasohol.

[wantan]

Guess everyone is "a bit annoyed" since it changes things for many people using motorbikes. I am not okay when I need to drive 20-30 km to find a petrol station with benzine. As you know, since you follow the subject, old bikes definetely will have problems when they use gasohol for a longer time, in particular everything with a carburator.

My "annoyance" was meant "in general", not related to threads with this topic here in this forum

And what makes it more worse, we are not even sure that in benzine 95 there is no ethanol. And we are not even sure that in gasohol (E10) there is 10% ethanol for sure. It is just "up to 10%" (at least in Europe its like this). So it can be 10% or maybe 0%. This whole gasohol/biofuel thingy is a joke imo.

Edited March 20, 2013 by wantan

[NomadJoe]

A few weeks ago I posted a topic with regard to fuel requirements for big bikes and the problems arising with the elimination of benzene 91. Obviously the problem is not only for big bike owners

My big bike (2013 Ninja 650) says 91 E10 on it so doesn't really matter what I put in it. Anything made in the last 5 years is gasohol tolerant. Perhaps you mean older big bikes?

[Richard-BKK]

Actual a RON 95 fuel should never be considered as a replacement for a RON 91 fuel, especially when the manufacture specific tells to use RON 91, the combustion of a higher octane fuel, as RON 95 is controlled by chemicals to not ignite at a certain (lower compression). While not much highly flammable fuel can resist get ignited by an open flame provided by the spark plug.

But an engine optimized for running on RON 91 fuel will not burn its fuel if it's running on RON 95 fuel. Actual, Honda if Honda finds RON 95 as a source of engine failure all warranty claims will be ignored... Honda now claims that 60% of all Honda motorcycle engine failures find it source in the wrong fuel.

If you use RON 95 fuel in a RON 91 engine the fuel is not burned as it was intended, it will produce more environmental contamination, and while the environment is maybe not on everybody mind the extra particles produced also clog sensors and is a source to clog fuel intake... making the engine run lean and giving the owner a feeling that the RON 95 fuel is increasing performance while it's actual burning the engine beyond repair and warranty....

According to some Honda mechanics I spoke to at a technical information meeting, the latest, Honda Wave 125i also revered to as version 4 (currently on sales) has an ingenious way to tell (by using several sensors) that it was used with RON 95 fuel.... and for how long...

If Honda is using this in the current generation of the PGM-FI, you could also expect similar data collected from PGM-FI units from the same generation in other motorcycles....

Ok all well and good, so care to explain why bikes rated for RON 91 run perfectly fine on 91 Benzine but pink like a bastrad and generally run like a bag of shit on 91 gasohol. Consumers can only obey the sticker on the fuel filler cap....clearly marked 91????

For big bikes the problem of knocking can be something else, for instance your ignition timing can be a bit to early for gasohol. Some have problems with Dynojet Power Commanders (other other sort like devices) which alter not only the fueling but also optimize the ignition timing.

At low rpm ignition occurs close to TDC (Top Dead Centre). As engine rpm rises the spark/ignition point is moved forward so that the fuel charge can be ignited at a more efficient point in fuel charge compression to allow the fuel to start burning even while it is still being compressed.

But Ethanol and Benzine have different burning rates (fuels with 10% ethanol burn faster).... therefore ignition timing should be adjusted...

[Ticketmaster]

I have a 2010 ERn6 and have always gotten a ping with Gasohol on hard acceleration that I never get with benzine. Anybody can say what they want, but those are the facts.

Regardless of the ron rating, gasohol and benzine of the same ron rating have different optimum stoichiometric ratios. Gasohol requires a richer mixture. That is, greater fuel flow. Or put another way, an amount of benzine contains more energy than an equal amount of E-10. The stoichiometric optimum for benzine is an AFR of 14.7, while for E-10 it's around 14.1.

Another problem is that alcohol attracts water, and the more water there is in your fuel, the less energy it delivers. In this humid environment, the problems of gasohol can be magnified. As your E-10 becomes more saturated with water, your will need a richer and richer mixture. God help us if unscrupulous operators are adding water to the fuel before selling it!

As you accelerate, your ECU will order up a richer mixture, maybe an AFR of 11.7-12.4 on hard acceleration. Since E-10 needs a richer mixture, your engine would ping on acceleration if it is not getting it. Theoretically, your ECU would deliver the correct mixture, but that's theoretically. My engine pings with E-10 and it doesn't with benzine. Richard?

One might also consider that when Gasohol reaches a certain saturation point, the alcohol and benzine will spontaneously separate in your tank. So if you leave a vehicle parked a long time without a sealed gas tank, you could end up with your benzine floating on the alcohol and water, meaning your fuel uptake with be sucking up only water and alcohol. Nice. If you can't start you little motorcycle that has been sitting for a long time with gasohol in the tank, consider emptying the tank and refilling it with fresh fuel. Been there, done that.

More than problems with carbureted motorcycles what about all the uneducated Thai farmers with their carbureted four stroke implements and, horrors, 2 stroke weed sprayers, etc. They are going to put gasohol in the things and will never know what did them in. The abolition of benzine 91 is a classic case of throwing the little guy on the alter of profits for the big guys producing alcohol. It's that and nothing else. Seems criminal.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Ticketmaster

[BSJ]

Actual a RON 95 fuel should never be considered as a replacement for a RON 91 fuel, especially when the manufacture specific tells to use RON 91, the combustion of a higher octane fuel, as RON 95 is controlled by chemicals to not ignite at a certain (lower compression). While not much highly flammable fuel can resist get ignited by an open flame provided by the spark plug.

But an engine optimized for running on RON 91 fuel will not burn its fuel if it's running on RON 95 fuel. Actual, Honda if Honda finds RON 95 as a source of engine failure all warranty claims will be ignored... Honda now claims that 60% of all Honda motorcycle engine failures find it source in the wrong fuel.

If you use RON 95 fuel in a RON 91 engine the fuel is not burned as it was intended, it will produce more environmental contamination, and while the environment is maybe not on everybody mind the extra particles produced also clog sensors and is a source to clog fuel intake... making the engine run lean and giving the owner a feeling that the RON 95 fuel is increasing performance while it's actual burning the engine beyond repair and warranty....

According to some Honda mechanics I spoke to at a technical information meeting, the latest, Honda Wave 125i also revered to as version 4 (currently on sales) has an ingenious way to tell (by using several sensors) that it was used with RON 95 fuel.... and for how long...

If Honda is using this in the current generation of the PGM-FI, you could also expect similar data collected from PGM-FI units from the same generation in other motorcycles....

So your saying the Honda on-board computer isn't sophisticated enough to adjust for variations in RON?

[Richard-BKK]

Actual a RON 95 fuel should never be considered as a replacement for a RON 91 fuel, especially when the manufacture specific tells to use RON 91, the combustion of a higher octane fuel, as RON 95 is controlled by chemicals to not ignite at a certain (lower compression). While not much highly flammable fuel can resist get ignited by an open flame provided by the spark plug.

But an engine optimized for running on RON 91 fuel will not burn its fuel if it's running on RON 95 fuel. Actual, Honda if Honda finds RON 95 as a source of engine failure all warranty claims will be ignored... Honda now claims that 60% of all Honda motorcycle engine failures find it source in the wrong fuel.

If you use RON 95 fuel in a RON 91 engine the fuel is not burned as it was intended, it will produce more environmental contamination, and while the environment is maybe not on everybody mind the extra particles produced also clog sensors and is a source to clog fuel intake... making the engine run lean and giving the owner a feeling that the RON 95 fuel is increasing performance while it's actual burning the engine beyond repair and warranty....

According to some Honda mechanics I spoke to at a technical information meeting, the latest, Honda Wave 125i also revered to as version 4 (currently on sales) has an ingenious way to tell (by using several sensors) that it was used with RON 95 fuel.... and for how long...

If Honda is using this in the current generation of the PGM-FI, you could also expect similar data collected from PGM-FI units from the same generation in other motorcycles....

So your saying the Honda on-board computer isn't sophisticated enough to adjust for variations in RON?

Actually no ECU can detect different RON/octane level, Honda has an enhanced version of the well-known Honda PGM-FI which can detect the ethanol level… but this is currently only sold in South-America…

Edited March 21, 2013 by Richard-BKK

[taninthai]

Actual a RON 95 fuel should never be considered as a replacement for a RON 91 fuel, especially when the manufacture specific tells to use RON 91, the combustion of a higher octane fuel, as RON 95 is controlled by chemicals to not ignite at a certain (lower compression). While not much highly flammable fuel can resist get ignited by an open flame provided by the spark plug.

But an engine optimized for running on RON 91 fuel will not burn its fuel if it's running on RON 95 fuel. Actual, Honda if Honda finds RON 95 as a source of engine failure all warranty claims will be ignored... Honda now claims that 60% of all Honda motorcycle engine failures find it source in the wrong fuel.

If you use RON 95 fuel in a RON 91 engine the fuel is not burned as it was intended, it will produce more environmental contamination, and while the environment is maybe not on everybody mind the extra particles produced also clog sensors and is a source to clog fuel intake... making the engine run lean and giving the owner a feeling that the RON 95 fuel is increasing performance while it's actual burning the engine beyond repair and warranty....

According to some Honda mechanics I spoke to at a technical information meeting, the latest, Honda Wave 125i also revered to as version 4 (currently on sales) has an ingenious way to tell (by using several sensors) that it was used with RON 95 fuel.... and for how long...

If Honda is using this in the current generation of the PGM-FI, you could also expect similar data collected from PGM-FI units from the same generation in other motorcycles....

So your saying the Honda on-board computer isn't sophisticated enough to adjust for variations in RON?

Actually no ECU can detect different RON/octane level, Honda has an enhanced version of the well-known Honda PGM-FI which can detect the ethanol level but this is currently only sold in South-America

From just looking at a picture Thai cbr posted in another thread seems like slot of the Honda can run on all 3 fuels so no worries really

[ClareQuilty]

Up here in Isaan most PTTs still have the yellow 95 benzine - I haven't noticed any dropping it. I've had some fear that they might, as I imagine few people buy it, but anyway so far it is still there. I see a few young guys buying it who seem to care about their bikes, but most people seem to be putting the gasohol garbage in their older bikes.