Thai Mother Want Child Back.

[Gooddaddy]

Hi. My daughter was born in thailand. Now has australian citizenship and aussie passport. I lived with her mother there, untill two months ago. We never married, i am on the birth certificate but i didnt have custody of the child in thailand. We both decided that our daughter will come to australia to live with me. My daughter left with me from bangkok airport in janurary. Her mother came to the airport with us, we supplied some id, photocopies of family book, passports, and a handwritten note by my daughters mother to the immigration police and she gave permission for my daughter to come with me. So it was all done legally. Since coming here we have seperated over the telephone. Earlier this month i found out she was back in pattaya selling her body. I called her to confront her with her actions and her new boyfriend/customer answered and would not let me speak with her. He told me to bring my daughter to thailand. I obviously said no. She has told me through him that she has changed her mind, and wants our daughter to come back. Of course i dont want that. I am worried though because it seems that if she was to get a court order from a thai court saying i had a case to answer regarding our daughters legal status that would have to be passed to the australian family court who would decide if she was returned to her mother. It isnt a case of abduction, but rather one where the mother has 'changed her mind' due to her new circumstances. She is a good mother, but a bad role model. Also she may have financial support now from this guy but who knows how long that will last. CONSIDERING these set of circumstances, does anyone know what a thai court procedure would be in such a case. It is not a case of abduction, but rather a case of the mother having a new love and wanting her child back. By the way, i am am excellent father, my daughter is very happy living here with my mother and me. Her level of learning has really sped up in this stimulated environment i really so strongly dont want her to be have to returned to thailand to face an uncertain random future. I got her out of that country, i thought it was over, but now it seems that it could turn into a saga very easily.

[Gooddaddy]

Sorry it posted twice. Can you remove the other one?

[arthurwait]

Have you been legalized as the father as you weren't married ?

[Mario2008]

As you say, you are not married and the child was born in Thailand. That means you only become the legal fater if you legitimise the child, which you did not do. As a consequence, you are only allowed to take care of the child with permission of the mother. The mother can withdraw the permission at any time, at which point you will be kidnapping the child and can be subject to prosecution if you don't follow her request.

(As you didn't speak to the mother and she didn't send you a letter or such, you can asume she still didn't retract her permission. But that will be a matter of time).

What you should do right away is to legalise the child in Australia and become the legal father of the child, so you have the same rights as her and can start proceedings to get custody over the child and maybe a ban on the child leaving Australia without your permisison.

Get a competent lawyer with an expertise in family law as soon as possible and discuss your options with him. Act now.

[Tchooptip]

How old is your daughter?

Her mother is back in Pattaya selling his body...did you sent her any money?

[Gooddaddy]

Hi mario. Yes under australian law i share 50/50 custody with the mother regardless of where she is from, so i am recognised under australian law that i am the father. Now you say she can accuse me of kidnapping? Hmm. Would she have to do that in a court or just walk into a police station? But there would still be a process? Yes? My lawyer said that as i have not recieved notice from her yet, under the hauge treaty that the longer she leaves it the less inclined the australian courts would be to send her back. Also my lawyer advised me not to go for sole custody here because she would get notice served and then that could stir her into action or getting the help of a lawyer who could then tell her that she could seek am order against me. The kind of question i need answered is on the thai side of things. How seriously will they take her? And she is not very capable of paperwork, how much buerocracy would she have to go throug to get an order sent to australia. I dont believe that a 'kidnapping warrent, or interpol warrent' could be issued or anything, and the australian government has to decide whether he goes back there. So i think your post may be i little far fetched?

[Gooddaddy]

Hi it was the mothers choice to do that, i didnt send her money because we agreed to seperate.

[Mario2008]

As the child was born in Thailand the child must be legitimised under Thai law. As far as a Thai court is concerned, you are not the father. If you indeed legitmised the child under Australian law, Australia however will recognise you as the father. But a Thai court might very well not, aslo depending on how you legitimised the child.

If you legitimised the child at the Australian embassy in BKK, a Thai judge will almost certainly not recognise that. He will reason that the child is born in Thailand and you being in Thailand at that moment should have legitmised the child under Thai law, not Australian law.

If you legitmised the child in Australia itself, a judge will be more inclined to recognise that.

A Thai court can order your arrest if you are not considered the legal father or if there is a custody order which you do not honour.

You would be ill advised to return to Thailand with the child anyway. A Thai court can order that the child will not leave Thailand, wehter you have properly legitmised the child or not.

I fully agree with your lawyer that the longer you take care of the child the less a court will be inclined to return the child to the mother. But in the end it will result in a custody battle and you should prepare for that.

Also wait to see how much of this his her boyfriends idea. Time is definately on your side.

[Gooddaddy]

Yes, sure the thai court could order my arrest but i doubt my government would send me there. Also, i am more interested in the process. My lawyer said although he didnt know the thai process, it is obviously much more than just her simply walking into a thai police station crying my daughter has been stolen. Its more like she would have to appear at a court with a lawyer, see a judge, have much paper work filled out, then again see a panel of judges or something for them to send an order to the australian government, which would then decide whether the child could be sent back. Under australian law they recognise both the mother and father as equal custody. I never needed to legitimize her as my child as she was granted australian citizenship therefore we became her parents under australian law. But they may not send the child there as she may be exposed to inadequate services by the government itself ie no social welfare, bad hospitals, disease, road safety etc. Apart from the usual kidnapping does anyone know of a case where the mother changes her mind? Etc.

[Gooddaddy]

Also i dont plan on going back to thailand. And yes it is up to the australian court, they would have the last say as to whether the child goes back. Under australian law, once she have permission then pg cannot backtrack and say she didnt. So they may not respect the wishes of the thai court.

[Mario2008]

Actually, her walking into a plice station and file charges against you is enough for your arrest. if you will be convicted is up to the judge.

There are two questions:

1. the child abduction, proceedings for the child to be returned to the mother in Thailand are done by the Thai Autorney Generall requesting the return of the child from the socalled central authorithy in Australia.

2. criminal charges against you for kidnapping. Again a request from the Thai government to the Australian goevrnment for your arrest and extradition to Thailand.

Thai law also acknowdleges both mother and father having equal rights, your problem is that you are not considered the legal father as far as Thailand is concerned.

Under the Hague treaty, once there is a custody order from a Thai court and thet Thai authorities contact the Australian authorithies the Australian court has only limited option to decide on the case, basicaly they check if the proceedings where correct and fair. They do not look at the case in whole and give their own decision on with who the child must stay.

[Gooddaddy]

Ok, well i disagree. Since i am in australia, there would be a very long process to arrest me here for a crime like that. Much more than a statement in a police station. Australia would not extradite me to a thai prison.

[FritsSikkink]

interesting story:

http://www.stickmanweekly.com/Reader2007/reader4737.htm

[Mario2008]

Ok, well i disagree. Since i am in australia, there would be a very long process to arrest me here for a crime like that. Much more than a statement in a police station. Australia would not extradite me to a thai prison.

I don't want to scare you and criminal proceedings will be far off. But you asked about the consequences in Thailand.

If a Thai judge has a ruling before an Australian judge makes a ruling, that might be in favour for the mother. That is why you should prepare for if she starts a case, then you should start a case in Australia.

[SparklingCascades]

Reading the posts, some of the advise seems very amateur and casino-syle. Makes my stomach turn to read it, since people should not be advising a course of action - unless they are practicing attorneys-at-law in family law in Thailand or have dealt with an exactly similar situation themselves recently.

I am told that there are 3 or 4 Thai legal firms who are partnered with law firms in Australia, a kind of pool-sharing of knowledge to deal with grey areas like someone living in Australia and needing to navigate the Thai system or a Thai business wishing to do something in Aust etc...Your best bet is to consult one of these firms who have a feet in each country and skilled resources to get a proper fix-it solution; one which is legally binding on all - esp. if you are dealing with a Pattaya mama.

[Gooddaddy]

Hi again thanks for all your help. Now i clearly stated that i had the mothers permission to take my daughter to be raised in australia, attend school etc. So i did not abduct my child. www.ag.gov.au this is the attorney generals website in australia, i found all the answers to my hauge questions. There is specifically some categorical grounds for a non-returnal of an allegedly abducted child to the applicant. Interesting one of the main grounds for an almost auto-matic non-returnal of a child is in the case of where a parent has given permission to the other parent and then attempted to remitt the permission at a later date. From what an international family lawyer has advised me is that the longer it is left by the applicant party, (the party alleging the abduction) then the greater the chance that the child will not be returned. If the mother had say turned up to a police station within a day or so and complained then her case would be taken more seriously than say two months later. My lawyer advised me that as everyday goes by the greater chance that any application would be rejected by an australian family court. Other grounds include periods of 12 months or more or if i could show that she would be returned to a potentially dangerous/unsafe situation, or if i could show that her human rights would be at risk or any possibility of psychological, emotional or physical truma or abuse if she was returned there. So it seems that i would have 1 solid argument and a few other supporting pieces of evidence that her safety would be at risk. Im not exactly confident but from what i can see, a sudden change of heart by the mother for the reason that she may have found a new 'sponsor' and didnt need me in her life anymore is not reasonable grounds to assert that i abducted my child. It could also be said that since it is possible that any application would be declined by the australian family court, and then subsequently it would be found that according to via hauge convention i dieg not abduct my child, then it would also make sense that a thai court would not continue a prosecution, because the have ratified the convention, and then therefore they must certainly abide by it in some sense and i think they would not just willy-nilly persue child abduction cases against foreign nationals. If anyone could give me some real examples of parents who were charged by thai authorites with kidnapping after they were given permission to leave with their dual thai/foreign child by the thai parent and then at a later date that permission was revoked then i would be interested to hear.

[Gooddaddy]

But under the hauge treaty i am considered the father and have equal right to the child as in australia, also on the link it says that both parents named on the birth certificate of an australian child are automatically given equal right to the child unless a court order in australia has deemed otherwise. The story of the italian sisters was interesting, recently an australian mother abducted, without the italian fathers permission her four daughters to australia, she was found in court that the children had to be returned so that a custody case could be heard in the other country. But interestingly the australian government negotiated with the italian government to drop the kidnapping charges against the mother so that she could return to fight a custody battle in the italian court. This seems to be the norm unless it were an extreme case. In my case it is not serious and i do believe that my government would help an australian citizen in a less serious situation such as my self. Also i have read on the attorney generals website that there is an overseas legal aid for parents involved overseas in custody battles. Where they may pay all legal costs, plus airfares and other expenses to ensure that the australian citizen is able to appear in court and fight their case.

[JohnC]

I just wonder if her new found bf has put the idea in her head that if she threatens to take the child back then relents if a "sum" of money is forthcoming!

[Gooddaddy]

I mean no money was in the discussion except for that he boasted that he had a house in pattaya. He also boasted that as he had lived in pattaya for 6 years, he has life experience... Obviously not the kind of life experience i want my daughter involved in. But anyhow, i have photos from the gogo bar on walking street of her 'working' wearing a g-string, bending over for the camera, dated as early on the 08 of feb, its clearly her she has a one of a kind tattoo all down her leg, also her face is clearly visible. All that i would have to do is try to somehow realistically explain to a court what exactly it means, the whole go-go car scena in pattaya. I cant see any judge in australia that would consent to a child going back to live with a prostitute who can be seen awake at all hours of the night dancing half naked...

[soi41]

If I were the judge, I would also ask the question, what kind of man goes looking for the mother of his child in a gogo-bar?

[FritsSikkink]

Hi again thanks for all your help. Now i clearly stated that i had the mothers permission to take my daughter to be raised in australia, attend school etc. So i did not abduct my child. www.ag.gov.au this is the attorney generals website in australia, i found all the answers to my hauge questions. There is specifically some categorical grounds for a non-returnal of an allegedly abducted child to the applicant. Interesting one of the main grounds for an almost auto-matic non-returnal of a child is in the case of where a parent has given permission to the other parent and then attempted to remitt the permission at a later date. From what an international family lawyer has advised me is that the longer it is left by the applicant party, (the party alleging the abduction) then the greater the chance that the child will not be returned. If the mother had say turned up to a police station within a day or so and complained then her case would be taken more seriously than say two months later. My lawyer advised me that as everyday goes by the greater chance that any application would be rejected by an australian family court. Other grounds include periods of 12 months or more or if i could show that she would be returned to a potentially dangerous/unsafe situation, or if i could show that her human rights would be at risk or any possibility of psychological, emotional or physical truma or abuse if she was returned there. So it seems that i would have 1 solid argument and a few other supporting pieces of evidence that her safety would be at risk. Im not exactly confident but from what i can see, a sudden change of heart by the mother for the reason that she may have found a new 'sponsor' and didnt need me in her life anymore is not reasonable grounds to assert that i abducted my child. It could also be said that since it is possible that any application would be declined by the australian family court, and then subsequently it would be found that according to via hauge convention i dieg not abduct my child, then it would also make sense that a thai court would not continue a prosecution, because the have ratified the convention, and then therefore they must certainly abide by it in some sense and i think they would not just willy-nilly persue child abduction cases against foreign nationals. If anyone could give me some real examples of parents who were charged by thai authorites with kidnapping after they were given permission to leave with their dual thai/foreign child by the thai parent and then at a later date that permission was revoked then i would be interested to hear.

It seems to me you only listen to info which is supporting your opinion and try to ignore the rest.

For the Thai court you are NOT the father and the mother has sole custody.

I don't think that your supporting arguments like road safety will be taken serious.

[Mario2008]

As I already stated, your lawyer is absolutely right in that how longer the child stays with you, the better your position become. Especially at that age, as the mother will become rapidly a stranger. A child's memory simply isn't developed enough till about age 4.

Key question is if you can be considerd the legal parent. Thailand will definately say no, till you legitimize the case.

The Hague treaty is concerned with returning the child, not with prosecution. That is a sepperate issue. It is meant to uphold a court decision regarding child custody in other countries as well, so a person cannot flee the country and try his luck elsewhere.

The child is currently living legally with you, and that gives that you cna claim that any proceedings must take place in Australia. But be sure you did properly legitimise your child under Australian law as you sure dind't do that under Thai law and that point can bite you.

Working in a bar or being a prostitute is in itself no reason why a person shouldn't be a good caretaker. Alcohol and drug abuse are much more serious things to take into considearation

[Gooddaddy]

Hi, everyone. I do listen to everyone. Thanks. Im very interested to hear of anyone that has been in a similar position than me. Mario. I do agree and under stand what you say about the thai court. And that i do not have custody in thailand. But it seems that things like the rules for Amphurs, courts, and immigration police a very different. If you like, the courts and the amphurs have a very internalised view of things, as they stand i have no right to my child. Though as the immigration police are dealing with people on an international level they kind of are above the regulations of the Amphur in some way. They know that i wasnt married to the mother, they were more interested that i was on the birth certificate and never mentioned the legitimization issue. In another respect i can see that many thai families may give the responsibility to the father of children ie he may take care of them if he seperates with the mother and the mother and he were never married. I think that the main people who make a big fuss about the legitimization issue are the farangs. To some extent, for instance the mum in this situation was born out of wedlock and her father has a new family, he never bothered to legitimise his daughter, and actually was the one that took care of her for the first 14 years. I know that he never legitimized her, the amphur told is when we were there on an unrelated matter. I mean thai people have only just got used to the idea of birth certificates and stuff like that. And the potential issue with the hauge, is not a custody issue. Under the hauge treaty i have equal right to my daughter as i am on the birth certificate. I think there are a few differences with the hauge laws and thai laws which is why thailand has not signed the treaty. Like a minor in hauge is under 18 and in thai 20. Also, the thai grandmother in this situation actually married a new man, not my daughters mothers dad, and he never ever took any responsibility of any kind for his new step-daughter. So although all these little injuctions and laws exist it seemed to me in all my years in thailand it is the farangs who bring then up, and not the thais. Maybe it is time for me to stop being worried so much. My ex girl, probably wouldnt know the thai law any better than your average african.

[Mario2008]

Immigraiton is only interested if you have permisison to leave with the child, not in if you had custody. Often they only look at the birth certificate, simply as that is the most easy way to check. But a Thai birth certificate does not give any guarantees that one is the legal father, one can just name the pope as the father. it is only a claim by the perosn registering the child that hte person listed as the father is the father, (in case the mother is not married).

Yes, Thai families are often not officially married. In daily live it is no big problem. Problems arise when there is a custody dispute or when a request must be made for official documents such as a Thai passport.

Thailand is a party to the Hague treaty. But in case a child has Thai nationality a Thai court will consider the issue a Thai matter and not an international matter and consequently do not apply the treaty (yet). A child that does not have Thai nationality and is abducted to Thailand will be treated as under the convention.

Indeed don't worry too much. My message is "be prepaired for if" and strenghten your case by making sure you are the legal father at least in Australia. With that the passing of time you have not much to worry.

[Gooddaddy]

Hi mario, thanks for your advise. I agree with you and i know what you say sort of, but can you tell please what is the difference between being a signatory and in the thai case ratifying the hauge convention on the civil children thing. Yes to confirm, in australia if you are named on the birth certificate by the mother, then the father is legally have half the rights. Because i made her a citizen i gained half custody here. If she was to arrive here and set up a life somehow, then she would have rights too, or even if she came for a holiday. But if we couldnt come to an agreement then courts can have their say. Also mario, do you think that the thai immigration would keep some kind of note on their computer that permission was granted by the mother. They took alot of photo copies for their records, do they keep them somewhere? Can i access that somehow if need be? Or would it be a burocratic merrygo round?

[Gooddaddy]

Soi41 you have misunderstand. I didnt look for her in the gogo. I am aware what you are saying. When i found, after many hours of searching on facebook her photos in the certain gogo bars facebook page, dancing in her underwear, i was shocked and instantly felt so hurt for my daughter. For what ever reason she resorted to this i cant really know. But i can tell you that her family are all hard working issan factory workers, in chonburi, in the biggest surfboard factory, and she had a job and a place to stay there but left to go and hang out with some loser kind of half cousin young prostitutes. For what ever reason. But i didnt look for a potential mother in a go go bar. When i met her she was actually making little shakes in sri racha, she spoke limited english and was a bit of a country girl who liked to go out to the disco a dance. Generally uneducated, but nice, its the lack of education and some kind of dream to selfwilled tragedy i suppose that can turn these normal girls into prostitutes so easily i suppose. And slavery was only abolished in thailand in 1905, the slaves were the peasant relatives of these issan girls and it was only 4 or 5 generations ago. Prostitution has always been a way of life for the peasant girls of thailand, i just never imagined that the mother of my child would do it in such a callous fashion...

[Mario2008]

Hi mario, thanks for your advise. I agree with you and i know what you say sort of, but can you tell please what is the difference between being a signatory and in the thai case ratifying the hauge convention on the civil children thing. Yes to confirm, in australia if you are named on the birth certificate by the mother, then the father is legally have half the rights. Because i made her a citizen i gained half custody here. If she was to arrive here and set up a life somehow, then she would have rights too, or even if she came for a holiday. But if we couldnt come to an agreement then courts can have their say. Also mario, do you think that the thai immigration would keep some kind of note on their computer that permission was granted by the mother. They took alot of photo copies for their records, do they keep them somewhere? Can i access that somehow if need be? Or would it be a burocratic merrygo round?

The difference between a signatory and having ratified was unintentional on my part. But the difference is that a country can sign a treaty and becomes a signatory, but the treaty often does not take effect till parliament of that country rectifies (agrees with the signing by their government) the treaty.

Immigration does keep records, but I can't tell you how you can get them and how long they keep them. it is always worth a try.

[briboy]

Hi again thanks for all your help. Now i clearly stated that i had the mothers permission to take my daughter to be raised in australia, attend school etc. So i did not abduct my child. www.ag.gov.au this is the attorney generals website in australia, i found all the answers to my hauge questions. There is specifically some categorical grounds for a non-returnal of an allegedly abducted child to the applicant. Interesting one of the main grounds for an almost auto-matic non-returnal of a child is in the case of where a parent has given permission to the other parent and then attempted to remitt the permission at a later date. From what an international family lawyer has advised me is that the longer it is left by the applicant party, (the party alleging the abduction) then the greater the chance that the child will not be returned. If the mother had say turned up to a police station within a day or so and complained then her case would be taken more seriously than say two months later. My lawyer advised me that as everyday goes by the greater chance that any application would be rejected by an australian family court. Other grounds include periods of 12 months or more or if i could show that she would be returned to a potentially dangerous/unsafe situation, or if i could show that her human rights would be at risk or any possibility of psychological, emotional or physical truma or abuse if she was returned there. So it seems that i would have 1 solid argument and a few other supporting pieces of evidence that her safety would be at risk. Im not exactly confident but from what i can see, a sudden change of heart by the mother for the reason that she may have found a new 'sponsor' and didnt need me in her life anymore is not reasonable grounds to assert that i abducted my child. It could also be said that since it is possible that any application would be declined by the australian family court, and then subsequently it would be found that according to via hauge convention i dieg not abduct my child, then it would also make sense that a thai court would not continue a prosecution, because the have ratified the convention, and then therefore they must certainly abide by it in some sense and i think they would not just willy-nilly persue child abduction cases against foreign nationals. If anyone could give me some real examples of parents who were charged by thai authorites with kidnapping after they were given permission to leave with their dual thai/foreign child by the thai parent and then at a later date that permission was revoked then i would be interested to hear.

hey Mate, maybe you just need to step back and think about things you are saying on the forum, the new sponsor may well be a member and by telling the world everything you are giving him ammo and telegraphing your punchs, wish you all the best and hope it turns out good for you and your daughter, many just walk away with no thaught of what they are responsible for.

[Gooddaddy]

The end of this story is here... I have made another contact with her. I was way way way so paranoid making the original post. Briboy- you are right about walking away. The fact now is that the guy who i spoke with on the phone gave 15000 to her and has gone back to europe, and she is back in the gogo bar. She even tried to lie to me that she needed money and she had sent all the money home. But she doesnt allude to all the money a new samsung galaxy, new clothes and maintainance of the daily costs of being a gogo girl. Well. She will not go to any police or court. For sure. Songkran coming up she will just be lost in the waves of pattaya... And that is that. Maybe the real reason i made the whole post is that i am close to breaking down and very devastated. How can a mother, choose this and even consider it is her last option. There was a comment about earlier, about finding a mother in a go go bar. It was not like that, but it was more like i met a girl who suffers from mental illness due to being abused and neglected as a child. And all i have tried to do for her was in vain because she is too wild. Im not complaining about money. It was never about that. I have a beautiful child now, but you would think that a woman becomes a mother, then she would mature and change, not head for a tragic life and downfall. Devastated.

[FWIW]

^ No advice really. Just wanted to say that it sounds like a shitty hand you have been dealt. Good luck with it, and always remember that your daughter will make it all worth while.

(OK, a tiny bit of advice - it never hurts to have a wee bit of dirt on your ex-missus stashed away for a rainy day - you might like to consider investing in some one to get it for you - however personally painful that will be).