Gifting Land - Land Office Fees Mystery

[tamesisfwp]

My TGF' honorary 85 year old grandmother is gifting her small holding in
portions to various members of the family, my TGF getting the Lion's share. Two
others are getting lesser portions, each with direct access to either the main
village road or the Government lane along the side of the smallholding.

This has required several visits to the farm by Land Office surveyors and so far a
visit to the NP Land Office to be interviewed as to her mental competence and to
confirm the draft plots and deed transfers, all prepared by LO. Fees have been
paid at various stages and receipts obtained from the cashier's window. I was
not present at and honorary GM refuses to tell me if she paid any other cash
sums on visits to the farm.

Now GM has been sent a final copy of the plans and transfers to approve and
with the request to come to the LO and sign the papers - and pay another fee.
Some how the fee was mentioned in a separate telephone call from the LO.

I have looked high and wide for a schedule of fees for the obviously
different elements of service without success. My TGF just reassures me that all
these things are always expensive and you just have to pay.

I would appreciate any advice as to what is legitimate and if I am now
being gently moved towards Tea Money.

Thanks and best wishes

Stephen

Arrived Nakhon Phanom Wednesday by nightbus

[harrry]

Yes there is land tax to be paid. Unless your girlfriend would be a statutory heir it is considered to be a sale and the charges will be much higher. As a statutory heir my wife paid about 7000 in taxes on 4 rai of rice field vallued at book price 50000 a rai. There were also survey fees and fees for the surveyor to drive to the land etc.

[tamesisfwp]

Much appreciated Harrry

as with anything like this you raise yet further questions by your answer.

Is the tax based on land area and use or on a perceived arms length sale value? The land has not been worked for several years and then only on harvesting bushes that produced petty income at market - such as chilli peppers that fetch a good price. In the UK there is plenty of reference material on public record with which to get better than a thumbnail guess - what is available here to resist extortionate overvaluation? Or indeed are we now too late in the cycle to have put the bribe in for a sensible valuation, with obviously more reasonable tax bill to pay. The LO have no basis for knowing Farang money is being used to fund the fees and taxes and does that affect anything?

BTW, there are serious lessons to be learned from this as I discover honorary GM has not made a will and should she die this moment it all goes to the Government. Would that deserve a little or giant eeeeeeeek?

[harrry]

Much appreciated Harrry

as with anything like this you raise yet further questions by your answer.

Is the tax based on land area and use or on a perceived arms length sale value? The land has not been worked for several years and then only on harvesting bushes that produced petty income at market - such as chilli peppers that fetch a good price. In the UK there is plenty of reference material on public record with which to get better than a thumbnail guess - what is available here to resist extortionate overvaluation? Or indeed are we now too late in the cycle to have put the bribe in for a sensible valuation, with obviously more reasonable tax bill to pay. The LO have no basis for knowing Farang money is being used to fund the fees and taxes and does that affect anything?

BTW, there are serious lessons to be learned from this as I discover honorary GM has not made a will and should she die this moment it all goes to the Government. Would that deserve a little or giant eeeeeeeek?

Firstly.........it does not go to the government it is shared in accordandance with the provision for statutory heirs in the Civil Code. A will is easier of course.

Secondly

Land will have an assessedd value which is changed each year. This is baseed on a kind of average of land sales in the area but is on the low side.

THe main taxes which you have to pay if it is through inheritance is calculated from this. If the land is sold to a third party other than a statutory heir there will be a further tax at about 3.5% based on a value the ampure will deprmine looking at access to roads etc which increase the balue and then assessing what is suposed to be a rental value.

THe most important thing is to determine which type of title the land has. If it does not have a full chanote you should ensure the land is upgraded to this.

Edited March 31, 2013 by harrry

[Khun Jean]

It is pretty important to know in what range the answers you get should be.

Without a reference there is no way of telling if what is quoted is a real cost or with added tea money.

[tamesisfwp]

Thank you Khun Jean for putting Breadbin in the know.

I asked here because, unlike the British Land Registry where everything is listed, I have looked high and low here and on Thai Government websites and have not found the answer.

When do you ever ask Caesar how much of your money he should loot? I think generally the cynicism demonstrated endlessly on here has a real foundation even within my own limited experience.

My TGF and her family are the closest honorary GM got to having a family. As Thai Inheritance law is identical to UK law we conducted a search for distance statutory beneficiaries, without success. The search was certainly enough to satisfy any British Probate Commissioner.

Back to the main thread of my OP thanks Harry for a full but, alas, depressing reply. I at least have a formula for a worst case budget.

When we complete this transaction within the next few weeks I shall give detailed feedback on the damage.

Best wishes all

Stephen

[harrry]

If you're worried about the staff ripping you off you are an idiot.

The taxes are set in stone and can be calculated by anyone.

All you need to know if you ask the correct question.

Also, if your wife etc. us Thai, why doesn't she ask? Why are you as a farang getting involved?

Are you just there for giving money? Man up pal and get a life.

Yes I really think the staff are honest. I also think that it pays to know what to expect before you go to the counter. In our case the girl concienciously calculated the right tax for 9 of the blocks but in my nieces tax calculated it at the external sale rate. On pointing out the fact that in this case she was a legatee as her father had died and she stood in his place they corrected it. Difference saved about 25000 baht and it was not because they were cheating. Edited April 1, 2013 by harrry

[Crossy]

OK chaps, a troll post and some off-topic bickering removed.

I have big box of holidays to hand out, please don't make me.

[harrry]

http://www.thailandlaw.org/intestate-succession-in-thailand/

In Thailand, there are six classes of statutory heir namely:

Descendants;

Parents;

Brothers and sisters of full blood;

Brothers and sisters of half blood

Grandfathers and Grandmothers;

Uncles and Aunts.

[oracle]

I do not understand your question tamesisfwp. I read it 3 times. Your GF and some family members share some land from the GM, your GF gets some, the most. What does that have to do with you? I would say, if I were you, none of my business.

For what you or who have to pay? The land offices always work with fixed fees and gov assed values and you GF gets a receipt. They generally do not cheat on this. You or she the GM could pay 'tea money' as you call it, but it is just some little extra money, it is not much, it is only to assure that the official pays some attention to his work and he does the right thing and does not let you wait the whole day. When she, your gf, or GM has to pay more than what we would call a little money, it would be wierd, and when you have to pay it would me more weird and you are probably scammed, taken for a ride.

I read breadbin's removed posts and reading I thought it made sense and thought of the men in the louis theroux documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZNgE2EQu9E

[breadbin]

Thanks Oracle.

I was being honest but the op took offence.

I think I hit a reality nerve.

I totally agree with your post.

[tamesisfwp]

Hi Oracle,

I appreciate your time to give me chapter and verse on Land Office procedures. It is my business because I proposed the whole hive down to ensure GM's wish was fulfilled. GM had funded 4 aunts and uncles of and 3 siblings of TGF -oops also TGF - through University. My TGF returned from a good engineering consulting job in BKK over two years ago when GM became sick, despite not being aware that her own sense of sickness was cancer. GM's sickness was bowel cancer. I had been chatting with my TGF and her (now 10 yo) daughter for 2 years before all this happened. We first met online on the strangest type of social website (pay close attention here breadbin) being a cancer forum, because I was in intensive care with bowel cancer in Bath and the daughter was worrying what her mother's sickness was. The clever kid was trawling the net searching for clues of sickness her mother was self-denying. I paid for TGF's medical investigations and treatment - more precisely a friend who lives and works in BKK flew to NP and frogmarched her back to BKK for tests and successful treatment - a 1 in 40,000 shot of success on a pre-cancerous tumour behind the knee). May I say whooopeee? I also paid for GM's bowel operation and she is now back in the field strewing fertiliser on fields she had had to neglect. Now she has money to live on and a working small holding, which gives her great pride. If TGF had died the daughter would have been an orphan with 70 yo grandparents who had turned off and were planning to go to temple.

For some reason best known to themselves and they always deny if asked both TGF and GM seem terrified of officialdom. Having been present last August at the LO interview I was impressed by the officer who gently chatted with GM to ascertain her mental competence and freeness of will before approving the transaction. GM was then handed back to a creepy looking officer (40 years experience as an investigator tells me when someone is behaving creepy) who then produced the drawn up new chenote plans for her approval. She signed them and then my TGF was told to go to the cashier window and pay some fees for which she got a receipt. I asked TGF to get information on what other fees are payable and any taxes payable. For some reason the cashier started shouting at my TGF and she returned to me crying. When I asked what the problem was she refused to reply, but later told me she had refused to pay Tea Money on top - a sum equal to the fees just paid - not 5% or 10% but a full 100%.

Between then and now nothing has progressed but GM has received telephone calls from the LO creep. For what possible reason could that be? On the day of my arrival I went with an interpreter from the NP University and asked at the LO for either a copy of the fee table or the government website we could find it. I also asked for a detailed statement of fees paid by GM and TGF and was refused because I was not party to the transaction. I returned later with both GM and TGF (again quaking) and again asked for the fees paid account and an indication of further fees. I was told we would be advised at the appropriate moment. I asked when that would be and he said he would look the file up some time but he was a very busy man.

That is where it stands, except the next day he again telephoned GM and she cried for the rest of the day.

Around this whole saga includes the drawing up of wills by all parties so there is no doubt of anyone intentions on death.

Is it any of my business? I leave the jury to decide. I do know that if TGF had died and GM had died the daughter would have been homeless and without a pot to piss in.

So next time you want to make smart comments Breadbin In suggest you really do hold your foul tongue because there is a world of love and sincerity out here rather than the sewer in your mind.

Best wishes to all fair minded folk out there in Thai Visa land.

Stephen

PS In case any one wants to know I also beat my cancer against the odds and now am creating a life of love for my final years with the lady I have grown to admire and a daughter who is utterly amazing.

[harrry]

http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/thailand-property-transfer-tax.php

[breadbin]

What a load of rubbish.

It must have taken ages to come up

With that bs!

[breadbin]

I am glad you are not ill anymore but be wary of who you trust.

[oracle]

Tamesisfwp, no offence, but you must realize where you are, this area is backwards territory, peasants live and work in NP, these people have no chance of ever making any money, you are their only chance and source of making the extra money is you, the 2 medical treatments you paid for, considering government medical health programs, and your quote you had a 2 year chatting realionship with her before this happened, medical treatment money requests may not be in the top ten scams, but it is a good 11, then the crying by the TGF and GM, the land office really do not make them cry, just think about it, Breadbin's removed post was not that offensive in my opinion, just common sense and knowledge you should listen to.

[breadbin]

Thanks Oracle.

I wasn't trying to be offensive just totally honest having read the post.

My mate was ripped off for over £90k some years ago. I could see what was happening from a mile away but would he listen?

Now, he looks at others and can see exactly what happened to him,

He is now 61 yo with no pension, little savings, no investments etc.

A sad story but as they say 'up to him'.

I hope the OP sits up and at least listens and makes consideration.

No skin off my nose as I'm ok.

Good luck.

[breadbin]

I think the op has got the message (hopefully)

[cheeryble]

Can I start this again as I'm confused?

Missus grandma will give away her land soon.....before she dies.

She will split up the land where missus and she live into four, one for each of four daughters and sons, missus's mum is one of the four, and they will get the quarter with the house on, the other three will get roughly quarters with no building on.

Will there be taxes and fees?

[harrry]

Can I start this again as I'm confused?

Missus grandma will give away her land soon.....before she dies.

She will split up the land where missus and she live into four, one for each of four daughters and sons, missus's mum is one of the four, and they will get the quarter with the house on, the other three will get roughly quarters with no building on.

Will there be taxes and fees?

Yes there will be. Survey fees, transfer tax stamp duty and other taxes if it is outside the close family.

[breadbin]

Here we go...

[cheeryble]

Can I start this again as I'm confused?

Missus grandma will give away her land soon.....before she dies.

She will split up the land where missus and she live into four, one for each of four daughters and sons, missus's mum is one of the four, and they will get the quarter with the house on, the other three will get roughly quarters with no building on.

Will there be taxes and fees?

Yes there will be. Survey fees, transfer tax stamp duty and other taxes if it is outside the close family.

I've pointed out the relationships.

Obviously the land must be surveyed before being cut.

Apart from that are there any fees? Or shall I say any big fees, like transfer fees.

[harrry]

Can I start this again as I'm confused?

Missus grandma will give away her land soon.....before she dies.

She will split up the land where missus and she live into four, one for each of four daughters and sons, missus's mum is one of the four, and they will get the quarter with the house on, the other three will get roughly quarters with no building on.

Will there be taxes and fees?

Yes there will be. Survey fees, transfer tax stamp duty and other taxes if it is outside the close family.

I've pointed out the relationships.

Obviously the land must be surveyed before being cut.

Apart from that are there any fees? Or shall I say any big fees, like transfer fees.

As already said. Yes. It is the same as a sale. THe only diference is that business tax need not be paid if within cerain bounds of relationship.

[cheeryble]

.As already said. Yes. It is the same as a sale. THe only diference is that business tax need not be paid if within cerain bounds of relationship.

Thankyou Harry.

I looked at your post #2 and sorry I found it unclear.

Putting it and your last post together, (and remembering my wife's mum and her siblings would eventually be statutory heirs if the land were not being gifted) I now presume:

Normal transfer tax must be paid.

Business tax need not be paid (whcih would not be paid anyway as the land has been owned more than5 years)

And yes is course one has to pay for the survey.

I'm kinda disappointed about a transfer tax it is certainly no sale just a change of name to someone who will get it eventually anyway.

Cheers

Cheeryble