The Future Of Electric Cars?

[BSJ]

Perpetual motion machines are of interest to everyone by the look of it!

And I didn't invest any money in the one I looked at.....but the crew that were working on it have invested Au$250,000 of their own money.

[mogandave]

"Every crowd has a silver lining." P.T.B.

[WarpSpeed]

I see where your point of view differs. Based on ton-miles and a train weighing 10 or 12 thousand tonnes, it could theoretically obtain good results as far as fuel burn is concerned. Moving the same freight by road would cost twice as much fuel.

"Here is an add I saw claiming that CSX freight trains can move 1 ton of material 500 miles on 1 gallon of diesel fuel. Wow, that is something I have to look into. Here is the site of CSX with the info I will use. From that site:

• CSX claims that EPA claims that a for every ton-mile, a truck emits about 3 times more nitrogen oxide and particulates than a locomotive does.
• CSX can move 1 ton of freight 500 miles with 1 gallon of diesel (on average).
• Their locomotives (that seems like an archaic term) uses auxiliary power for idling times so that the diesel engine can be shut down.
• Using throttle optimization based on train load and location and stuff.

They appear to have other initiatives to be a greener company. All this seems nice. However, I still think the 1 gallon thing is a little far fetched. So, let me do a basic calculation. Let me estimate the frictional force per ton of freight over this 500 mile trip. I will assume a straight track with no hills (this is my spherical cow assumption). Also, it seems like a fair estimate to say that one car can carry about 100 tons of freight. So, here is a diagram for one of those cars."

A quick check of answers.yahoo http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091119203705AA61Ac5 gave me the following:

CropperCapture1.jpg

Note that N (Notch) 8 is full throttle and N1 is idle.

So in N8 it is gulping down the diesel at a fair rate!

Yes, but that averages out once the load is moving and throttling back is achieved to maintain momentum..

[Ace of Pop]

Amazed no ones said. My Ranger Can Do......................................

[canman]

perpetual motion machine??? Never going to happen. How can you create energy from nothing? This is what would be required for a perpetual motion machine to work. You would need to reverse the laws of entropy and invalidate the second law of thermodynamics, it aint going to happen.

There are lots of people working on many different concepts around the world. But you may never see any of them. Inventors are often reluctant to seek help or show others what they have, so hundreds or thousands of good ideas never come to be. I know of one group working on a perpetual motion machine. Yes I rolled my eyes and thought what are these dickheads up too. After watching the video and inspecting the model I thought just maybe they had a chance at cracking it. I can't give any details, as I signed a confidentiality agreement, but I can say the theory behind the concept was quite convincing. The only problems they had was with the software to run it.

And the uses are almost limitless. If they can micro size it to run laptop computers....we would never need a power cable again.....if it works!

This.....One big nuclear powered perpetual motion machine powered by inertial momentum and heat.. Granted eventually it will slow to a stop but probably not in the life span of humans and in the mean time it fills a lot of needs so a perpetual motion machine is relative it may not be eternally a perpetual motion machine but maybe enough time to run one lifetime or more and isn't that a lot of potential energy savings while it lasts? And may it not be perpetual for a given persons lifetime making it just as valid?

>>Hmm,,,, What about the earths rotation? I'd venture that more like we haven't discovered it yet, kind of like thinking that the speed of light was the fastest we could achieve but now that's in question innit? At one point even the speed of sound was thought impossible to achieve and now we have cars that can achieve it let alone jets or rockets some of which can double it..The world was once thought to be flat, need I go on? How about the 20th century head of the US patent office that said "everything that can be invented has been already" paraphrasing of course.<

/span>

It begs the question of relativity... What is the time frame of perpetual motion in terms of any given purpose? A day, a week, a life time, 2 life times, eternity? Versus the energy saved?

A perpetual motion machine is one which does 'work' and continues to do so with absolutely no external input of mass or energy. I doubt there has been a machine built which could satisfy this criteria for so much as an hour let alone operate perpetually. What about the earths rotation? It is constantly slowing down and will eventually stop. Would a spinning top be defined as a perpetual motion machine? It's the same thing but on a larger scale.

it's an interesting topic to contemplate however the more that you do think about it the more you realise that it is a pipe dream. Yes similar things have been said about many things in the past but for now I think I am fairly safe in saying that I will never see one in my life time. Consider a hypothetical case where you do manage to construct a perpetual motion machine of sorts, you set it in motion and away it goes. Now you want to extract energy from it to do some external work. How is this extracted energy going to be replenished within your perpetual motion machine?

Basically you just echoed everything I already said but didn't really answer anything. I know the common definition of perpetual but as I said it's relative and relative to it's application and life time..Another words by what measure? Your lifetime? The planets lifetime? The universes lifetime? It's a chicken and egg question, just because WE, in our child like state of understanding as a race of living beings don't currently have an answer or understanding doesn't mean the possibility doesn't exist..

I concede the possibility that sometime in the future someone will invent a way of creating energy from nothing.

[WarpSpeed]

This.....One big nuclear powered perpetual motion machine powered by inertial momentum and heat.. Granted eventually it will slow to a stop but probably not in the life span of humans and in the mean time it fills a lot of needs so a perpetual motion machine is relative it may not be eternally a perpetual motion machine but maybe enough time to run one lifetime or more and isn't that a lot of potential energy savings while it lasts? And may it not be perpetual for a given persons lifetime making it just as valid?

perpetual motion machine??? Never going to happen. How can you create energy from nothing? This is what would be required for a perpetual motion machine to work. You would need to reverse the laws of entropy and invalidate the second law of thermodynamics, it aint going to happen.

There are lots of people working on many different concepts around the world. But you may never see any of them. Inventors are often reluctant to seek help or show others what they have, so hundreds or thousands of good ideas never come to be. I know of one group working on a perpetual motion machine. Yes I rolled my eyes and thought what are these dickheads up too. After watching the video and inspecting the model I thought just maybe they had a chance at cracking it. I can't give any details, as I signed a confidentiality agreement, but I can say the theory behind the concept was quite convincing. The only problems they had was with the software to run it.

And the uses are almost limitless. If they can micro size it to run laptop computers....we would never need a power cable again.....if it works!

>>Hmm,,,, What about the earths rotation? I'd venture that more like we haven't discovered it yet, kind of like thinking that the speed of light was the fastest we could achieve but now that's in question innit? At one point even the speed of sound was thought impossible to achieve and now we have cars that can achieve it let alone jets or rockets some of which can double it..The world was once thought to be flat, need I go on? How about the 20th century head of the US patent office that said "everything that can be invented has been already" paraphrasing of course.<

/span>

It begs the question of relativity... What is the time frame of perpetual motion in terms of any given purpose? A day, a week, a life time, 2 life times, eternity? Versus the energy saved?

A perpetual motion machine is one which does 'work' and continues to do so with absolutely no external input of mass or energy. I doubt there has been a machine built which could satisfy this criteria for so much as an hour let alone operate perpetually. What about the earths rotation? It is constantly slowing down and will eventually stop. Would a spinning top be defined as a perpetual motion machine? It's the same thing but on a larger scale.

it's an interesting topic to contemplate however the more that you do think about it the more you realise that it is a pipe dream. Yes similar things have been said about many things in the past but for now I think I am fairly safe in saying that I will never see one in my life time. Consider a hypothetical case where you do manage to construct a perpetual motion machine of sorts, you set it in motion and away it goes. Now you want to extract energy from it to do some external work. How is this extracted energy going to be replenished within your perpetual motion machine?

Basically you just echoed everything I already said but didn't really answer anything. I know the common definition of perpetual but as I said it's relative and relative to it's application and life time..Another words by what measure? Your lifetime? The planets lifetime? The universes lifetime? It's a chicken and egg question, just because WE, in our child like state of understanding as a race of living beings don't currently have an answer or understanding doesn't mean the possibility doesn't exist..

I concede the possibility that sometime in the future someone will invent a way of creating energy from nothing.

Not sure why it has to be from nothing? All it has to be is from a currently unharnessed and unlimited renewable power source such as abundant counter charges to create magnetic energy from the surrounding opposing charges for example. Something that produces slightly or even better significantly more than it consumes to produce the energy required. Even something such as dark matter for one possible example..

Edited April 5, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[Ace of Pop]

Cant this topic be moved to the Gay Section, or Ladies in Thailand, perhaps Worst Jokes. JEEEEZ

[BSJ]

I see where your point of view differs. Based on ton-miles and a train weighing 10 or 12 thousand tonnes, it could theoretically obtain good results as far as fuel burn is concerned. Moving the same freight by road would cost twice as much fuel.

"Here is an add I saw claiming that CSX freight trains can move 1 ton of material 500 miles on 1 gallon of diesel fuel. Wow, that is something I have to look into. Here is the site of CSX with the info I will use. From that site:

• CSX claims that EPA claims that a for every ton-mile, a truck emits about 3 times more nitrogen oxide and particulates than a locomotive does.
• CSX can move 1 ton of freight 500 miles with 1 gallon of diesel (on average).
• Their locomotives (that seems like an archaic term) uses auxiliary power for idling times so that the diesel engine can be shut down.
• Using throttle optimization based on train load and location and stuff.

They appear to have other initiatives to be a greener company. All this seems nice. However, I still think the 1 gallon thing is a little far fetched. So, let me do a basic calculation. Let me estimate the frictional force per ton of freight over this 500 mile trip. I will assume a straight track with no hills (this is my spherical cow assumption). Also, it seems like a fair estimate to say that one car can carry about 100 tons of freight. So, here is a diagram for one of those cars."

A quick check of answers.yahoo http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091119203705AA61Ac5 gave me the following:

CropperCapture1.jpg

Note that N (Notch) 8 is full throttle and N1 is idle.

So in N8 it is gulping down the diesel at a fair rate!

Yes, but that averages out once the load is moving and throttling back is achieved to maintain momentum..

Yes there are times when engineman can throttle back to N1 where fuel consumption is 12 gallons an hour per loco. Which is good.

The problem I see is that during the period when the dynamic brake is active, the energy is wasted instead of being captured. If we are to build cars based on similar concepts then the energy needs to be utilised. That would mean existing hybrid type vehicles would be the best type to adapt as they are designed with larger battery capacity from the get go. And how hard would it be to have hub motor/brakes made and fitted to existing models?

[mogandave]

The oil companies will just buy the patent and destroy the research, just like they did in thr '70s with the engine that got 200 MPG burning water.

[WarpSpeed]

I see where your point of view differs. Based on ton-miles and a train weighing 10 or 12 thousand tonnes, it could theoretically obtain good results as far as fuel burn is concerned. Moving the same freight by road would cost twice as much fuel.

"Here is an add I saw claiming that CSX freight trains can move 1 ton of material 500 miles on 1 gallon of diesel fuel. Wow, that is something I have to look into. Here is the site of CSX with the info I will use. From that site:

• CSX claims that EPA claims that a for every ton-mile, a truck emits about 3 times more nitrogen oxide and particulates than a locomotive does.
• CSX can move 1 ton of freight 500 miles with 1 gallon of diesel (on average).
• Their locomotives (that seems like an archaic term) uses auxiliary power for idling times so that the diesel engine can be shut down.
• Using throttle optimization based on train load and location and stuff.

They appear to have other initiatives to be a greener company. All this seems nice. However, I still think the 1 gallon thing is a little far fetched. So, let me do a basic calculation. Let me estimate the frictional force per ton of freight over this 500 mile trip. I will assume a straight track with no hills (this is my spherical cow assumption). Also, it seems like a fair estimate to say that one car can carry about 100 tons of freight. So, here is a diagram for one of those cars."

A quick check of answers.yahoo http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091119203705AA61Ac5 gave me the following:

CropperCapture1.jpg

Note that N (Notch) 8 is full throttle and N1 is idle.

So in N8 it is gulping down the diesel at a fair rate!

Yes, but that averages out once the load is moving and throttling back is achieved to maintain momentum..

Yes there are times when engineman can throttle back to N1 where fuel consumption is 12 gallons an hour per loco. Which is good.

The problem I see is that during the period when the dynamic brake is active, the energy is wasted instead of being captured. If we are to build cars based on similar concepts then the energy needs to be utilised. That would mean existing hybrid type vehicles would be the best type to adapt as they are designed with larger battery capacity from the get go. And how hard would it be to have hub motor/brakes made and fitted to existing models?

Yes, excellent point! On both counts, seems the perfect application for something like a KERS system imagine how much energy could be produced and stored by having such a system on every car of a couple mile long freight train like they have here in the states?

BTW It seems we're talking over ACE's head and he's getting frustrated because the conversation has substance and not mindless twitter ..

[aussiebebe]

BTW It seems we're talking over ACE's head and he's getting frustrated because the conversation has substance and not mindless twitter ..

There should be a prize for anyone who can explain how this GAGE200 works in a single sentence - it's way over my head too, I'm still interested though.

[Ace of Pop]

Nah, i find it funny. No one mentions Lights n Aircon.That would give em a range of 15 Cliks.Blow the Horn and it stops.

[BSJ]

Nah, i find it funny. No one mentions Lights n Aircon.That would give em a range of 15 Cliks.Blow the Horn and it stops.

Well you shouldn't have ordered the one that runs on AA batteries.

[BuffaloRescue]

Its possible to run a car using a jet engine. It uses 1/3rd of the fuel and has very few moving parts. Basically the jet engine turbine, turns the gears and drive. I am not talking about a hot jet blast coming out the back of the car.

Unfortunately a number of people working on jet car projects have died in mysterious circumstances.

[BSJ]

Its possible to run a car using a jet engine. It uses 1/3rd of the fuel and has very few moving parts. Basically the jet engine turbine, turns the gears and drive. I am not talking about a hot jet blast coming out the back of the car.

Unfortunately a number of people working on jet car projects have died in mysterious circumstances.

"Unfortunately a number of people working on jet car projects have died in mysterious circumstances."

They probaBLY WALKED AROUND THE BACK TO SEE What all the noise was and got burnt to a crisp!

[WarpSpeed]

Its possible to run a car using a jet engine. It uses 1/3rd of the fuel and has very few moving parts. Basically the jet engine turbine, turns the gears and drive. I am not talking about a hot jet blast coming out the back of the car.

Unfortunately a number of people working on jet car projects have died in mysterious circumstances.

You mean jet powered like these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKYyPZgoYx0

And if you get caught speeding this guys coming after you!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAU9lFf6NfM

Crap!! What's wrong with the embed on the last video?

Edited April 7, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[BuffaloRescue]

UM, no not exactly LOL

The one I saw, the engine was about the size of a shoe box. No flames not a rocket car

[WarpSpeed]

^Actually I meant to post this with the other post, bollocked that one up .. But here ya go, though I have to say this is not at all that impressive, a 125cc kart is much quicker with a much better throttle response and probably better fuel mileage as well, especially if it's a shifter kart.

They claim 60mph but I don't see more than 30 or 40 at most..

Edited April 7, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[mogandave]

Jet engines burn less fuel?

[WarpSpeed]

Jet engines burn less fuel?

I found that a bit curious meself?

[Ace of Pop]

Electric Car. My Electric Bill is Hi Enough here. Just Showing Off for the have nots.

[BSJ]

To twist an old adage: A lot of ground has been covered since......

A lot of inactivity has been the norm since the 1909 Baker Electric car first turned a wheel.

It was considered a ladies car back in it's day, a bit like the Porsche Boxster of the last decade.

I wonder what would have transpired if electric vehicles had become main stream?

1/ 100 more coal fired power stations in North America alone.

2/ Shortages of lead which would have meant any wars after WW1 would have to be fought with sword and bow & arrows.

3/ By 2000 lead would be a rare and precious commodity.

4/ 5 times as many people killed on the roads because you can't hear the damn thing coming!

[WarpSpeed]

Excellent analysis BSJ.. Though I think you left the real IMPORTANT points on the shelf.

-A healthier ozone layer so a likely decrease in some skin cancers due to lower carbon levels/damage to the ozone JFYI electric cars also produce beneficial ozone. Probably rather important to those living down under with less ozone protection.

-More fossil fuels available overall and lower cost, stretching our immediate need for generations instead of now potentially 2 maybe 3 at most.

-Likely a cleaner environment.

-Advanced EV technology on ALL fronts and larger infrastructure to accommodate the current offerings.

As per your point of being too quiet, I agree. They definitely need to have one of these installed on every EV car though.

http://www.evtones.com/

Edited April 8, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[IMHO]

As per your point of being too quiet, I agree.

+1.

It's definitely a problem in Thailand.

[WarpSpeed]

Ut oh! Seems the future is already short lived for some EV concepts and history may be repeating itself?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/electric-car-dead-over-again-210842853.html

Edited April 9, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[BSJ]

Ut oh! Seems the future is already short lived for some EV concepts and history may be repeating itself?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/electric-car-dead-over-again-210842853.html

The EV tones people must like Harleys! Play the sample bike sound to hear it.

[WarpSpeed]

Another potential death blow to the EV industry? At minimum a significant delay in forward progress.

By Deepa Seetharaman

TROY, Michigan (Reuters) - For nearly two years, a team of former Chevrolet Volt and Toyota Prius engineers has been working on the next big thing in electric cars: the latest version of the 154-year-old lead-acid battery.

Their aim is to build a battery strong enough to power a wider range of vehicles, something they think the current cutting-edge technology - lithium ion - can't do cheaply, particularly given recent safety scares.

The focus of Energy Power Systems on a technology older than the automobile itself illustrates the difficulty with lithium-ion batteries. While widely used in everything from laptops to electric cars and satellites, a number of high-profile incidents involving smoke and fire have been a reminder of the risks and given them an image problem.

The overheating of the batteries on two of Boeing Co's (BA.N) high-tech 787 Dreamliners, which prompted regulators to ground the aircraft, served to underline the concerns and forced the plane maker to redesign the battery system. Continued below..

http://news.yahoo.com/rethinking-lithium-ion-battery-revolution-051458161.html

Edited April 10, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[BKKdreaming]

^{the problem is that everyone wants EVs to be like "real" cars , with AC in the summer and a good heater in the freezing Northern USA-European winters.....}

^{plus throw in electric windows, electric power steering , radio etc and your driving range is very limited ,}

^{If you are happy with an electric "Golf Cart " then you can build them cheap ,}

^{a big jump will be a new battery design , something no one has thought of yet ,}

^{Check out some Top Gear shows , they tried to drive about 100 miles and had big problems , and the test of Tesla sports car ran the battery out after only a few miles of crazy track driving,}

^{A pure electric car is not ready for prime time yet........ hopefully soon}

[IMHO]

The problem with pure EV's in their current form is that they simply can't just "gas and go" - cars are bought for convenience, not inconvenience

IMHO, the future is going to be in:

* Battery swap stations - this would require all/most manufacturers to settle on a common form factor for batteries, and someone to be able to make a business plan around owning/recycling battery packs, distribution chain management, and supporting franchisees. I can't see this happening without forced legislation though (maybe CA can help? 555)

* Range Extenders - we already have flex-fuel generators like the Ampere/Volt, whether it continues this way or takes on the form for fuel cells or some other energy efficient method the generate electricity is yet to be known, but this system does still have the ability to reduce/eliminate dependance of foreign oil, even if it doesn't necessarily mean as big environmental gains.

* Classic Hybrids - these continue to be the best overall stop-gap in the medium term and we'll be seeing ever increasing options come to market. by 2015 it's anticipated that at least 50% of all new models will have a hybrid option in their line-up.

[WarpSpeed]

^{the problem is that everyone wants EVs to be like "real" cars , with AC in the summer and a good heater in the freezing Northern USA-European winters.....}

^{plus throw in electric windows, electric power steering , radio etc and your driving range is very limited ,}

^{If you are happy with an electric "Golf Cart " then you can build them cheap ,}

^{a big jump will be a new battery design , something no one has thought of yet ,}

^{Check out some Top Gear shows , they tried to drive about 100 miles and had big problems , and the test of Tesla sports car ran the battery out after only a few miles of crazy track driving,}

^{A pure electric car is not ready for prime time yet........ hopefully soon}

^I answered before I read your post IMHO but seems we are of the same mind.

I think the problem is as much about infrastructure and more rapid charging stations at least initially as anything and clearly the governments of the world need to take the lead on this and then the private finance will come forward.

The answer is in some sort of electric magnetic charging strip wireless transfer system technology on the road surface in specific lanes to allow for recharging while still driving.. I'd venture a guess that if just few billion of the current military budgets world wide were sequestered and put towards the development of such a system with the balance of that budget going to the first government and or private contractor that developed a successful system there would plenty of offerings in short order..

Edited April 11, 2013 by WarpSpeed