Rent To Pay Upon Moving Out Of Room

[Jawnie]

I'm moving out of a room after more than two years and trying to understand what the last month's rent pays for (if this has been discussed, please give me the link). The manager says the monthly bill I get pays the rent for the previous month. In the US, where I am from, the month rent pays for the coming month so when I pay on 1 April, I am paying for April but the manager is saying I am paying for March. I don't know about Thai rental law in this regard. Anyone know for sure? Thanks.

[Crossy]

I'm not sure there is a law per-sé defining what period rental payments cover.

The first port of call should be your lease / contract. All my rentals have been monthly in advance (ie the rent you pay at the end of March would be for April) but that doesn't mean that some rentals are in arrears.

Look at what you were expected to pay when you moved in, it's usually a deposit plus the first month's rent.

[breadbin]

In advance always.

[WhizBang]

I have never heard of paying rent after the fact. It is always in advance. Sounds to me like the manager is trying to squeeze you.

[wayned]

I've rented three places away from home while teaching. The normal practice was a security deposit and first month's rent up front and each month's rent in advance on the first of the month. The trick was getting the security deposit back I moved out.

[TRicher]

Any where I have lived has been Payment in advance of the month. They are attempting to keep your security deposit. This is a very common practice in Thailand. Keep in mind when you hand over any money here, it is no longer yours. Good luck retrieving it; remember keep your cool, if you don't you'll never have a chance.

[Jawnie]

I've rented three places away from home while teaching. The normal practice was a security deposit and first month's rent up front and each month's rent in advance on the first of the month. The trick was getting the security deposit back I moved out.

I'm getting a lot of this kind of response, ie., that payment is made in advance - 'pay before stay'. However, one Thai friend, who is a very competent tax expert in Thailand, said it's typically paid in arrears, ie., for the past month. Hopefully, I can get him to glance at the sections of my lease that deal with this. Paying in arrears defies common sense and standard practice in the US, but.......

Yeah.....there's always a 'dance' with the landlord upon move out. I'm making sure every little thing in fixed and in good shape because I know they'll want to charge me for all the little stuff. In the US, there is the legal concept of 'normal wear and tear" which means landlords can't charge you for stuff that simple wears out through normal use over time - not so in Thailand, it seems.

[WhizBang]

Just keep in mind that guy that got stuck in Thailand for 3 years over a 'legal' dispute with his landlord.

[worgeordie]

Yes always in advance,no Thai is going to give you a month without the money first.

If you are very lucky you may even get some of your deposit back.

I would recommend anyone renting a house or condo, to take photos of all the rooms,

floors,fixtures and fittings before moving in, My daughter was renting a room near a

University, was in room for 4 years, on moving out they tried to charge 500bht to clean

the room,even though it was cleaner than when she moved in, AND bht 500 for every

piece of double sided tape that was stuck on the wall,(which was already there when

she moved in. so just be careful because lots of landlords do not like repaying deposits,

as they will have most likely spent it

regards Worgeordie

[Jawnie]

Yes always in advance,no Thai is going to give you a month without the money first.

If you are very lucky you may even get some of your deposit back.

I would recommend anyone renting a house or condo, to take photos of all the rooms,

floors,fixtures and fittings before moving in, My daughter was renting a room near a

University, was in room for 4 years, on moving out they tried to charge 500bht to clean

the room,even though it was cleaner than when she moved in, AND bht 500 for every

piece of double sided tape that was stuck on the wall,(which was already there when

she moved in. so just be careful because lots of landlords do not like repaying deposits,

as they will have most likely spent it

regards Worgeordie

Agreed on all points. My rental agreement includes at 650 baht cleaning charge at move out....whatever. Where I live is a complex with two 20-story towers. One tower is long-term 'service' rental and the other is a hotel for tourists and short stays and includes a restaurant, tourist desk, etc. One would hope that this apparently professional operation would be somewhat even-handed and professional about dealing with security deposits. I'm still trying to get some educated, competent, and professional Thai friends to look at my lease agreement on this. I paid a three-month security deposit upon move in - the answer lies in whether I paid the first month rent at the same time, over and above the security deposit. If I did not, then the manager is correct.

[darrendsd]

Seems easy enough to work out, when you moved in did you pay your rent before you moved in or at the end of the month?

If you paid before you moved in you are paying in advance so if you pay today then that will pay for the room until the end of the month and you will not need to pay again.

Getting your deposit back may prove difficult, most Thai Landlords don't understand that deposits should be paid back

[Jawnie]

Seems easy enough to work out, when you moved in did you pay your rent before you moved in or at the end of the month?

If you paid before you moved in you are paying in advance so if you pay today then that will pay for the room until the end of the month and you will not need to pay again.

Getting your deposit back may prove difficult, most Thai Landlords don't understand that deposits should be paid back

After looking at my payment history in the office, I see that I did not pay any rent when I moved in...believe it or not. I only paid a three month security deposit.

I moved in 11/27 but the first recorded rent payment was on 12/31 which showed payment of four days rent (for November) and for all of December. So, the manager is correct and I have been paying rent in arrears (for the past month) instead of paying in advance. Because of this, it is likely...and correct...that I will get less than half of my security deposit back. This will be because I will pay the rent for March and half of April 2013 from the security deposit, which the manager offered me. Damn it!!

Edited April 2, 2013 by Jawnie

[54321]

Any where I have lived has been Payment in advance of the month. They are attempting to keep your security deposit. This is a very common practice in Thailand. Keep in mind when you hand over any money here, it is no longer yours. Good luck retrieving it; remember keep your cool, if you don't you'll never have a chance.

I usually find that losing my temper works a lot better than keeping cool

[darrendsd]

Seems easy enough to work out, when you moved in did you pay your rent before you moved in or at the end of the month?

If you paid before you moved in you are paying in advance so if you pay today then that will pay for the room until the end of the month and you will not need to pay again.

Getting your deposit back may prove difficult, most Thai Landlords don't understand that deposits should be paid back

After looking at my payment history in the office, I see that I did not pay any rent when I moved in...believe it or not. I only paid a three month security deposit.

I moved in 11/27 but the first recorded rent payment was on 12/31 which showed payment of four days rent (for November) and for all of December. So, the manager is correct and I have been paying rent in arrears (for the past month) instead of paying in advance. Because of this, it is likely...and correct...that I will get less than half of my security deposit back. This will be because I will pay the rent for March and half of April 2013 from the security deposit, which the manager offered me. Damn it!!

In theory he should make you pay your last months rent before he hands back the 3 month security deposit unless he checks the room for damages before you make your last rent payment

I'm not Thai but if it was my place that's how I would do it

[animatic]

You pay before you are allowed to move in, that is month on in advance, next payment is for month two.

Last month is a way to double the security deposits without calling it a double deposit.

In theory you would tell the landlord you are moving out at end of lease, please inspect,

they decide to repaint and that is less than the deposit... in theory.

Though they should, in a proper world, be expecting to repaint after a year or more occupancy,

they often see that as a renters expense, not normal wear and tear. certainly a question to ask,

or have stipulated on a signed lease.

But in theory you should get most of your deposit back, and not pay a final months rent.

Ah but TIT, this totally depends on your relationship with the landlord / manger.

I rented for two+ years from a guy, it worked like the above for both places I had with him.

Got 80% of deposit back and didn't pay the last month.

But someone I knew moved in later in a nearby identical building,

and had a horrible relationship with same wonderful landlord,

Granted this person could be quite a knob, and I know longer speak with him myself.

Still, he paid last months rent, lost the whole deposit and got a bill for cleaning the kitchen.

So picking you landlord well, not just picking the place, and keeping them nicely cultivated,

in a way a Thai can understand is in your best interest. If you don't like the people instinctively,

Either take the place and write off the deposit going in, or move on to the next possible place.

[Jawnie]

You pay before you are allowed to move in, that is month on in advance, next payment is for month two. Last month is a way to double the security deposits without calling it a double deposit. In theory you would tell the landlord you are moving out at end of lease, please inspect, they decide to repaint and that is less than the deposit... in theory. Though they should, in a proper world, be expecting to repaint after a year or more occupancy, they often see that as a renters expense, not normal wear and tear. certainly a question to ask, or have stipulated on a signed lease. But in theory you should get most of your deposit back, and not pay a final months rent. Ah but TIT, this totally depends on your relationship with the landlord / manger. I rented for two+ years from a guy, it worked like the above for both places I had with him. Got 80% of deposit back and didn't pay the last month. But someone I knew moved in later in a nearby identical building, and had a horrible relationship with same wonderful landlord, Granted this person could be quite a knob, and I know longer speak with him myself. Still, he paid last months rent, lost the whole deposit and got a bill for cleaning the kitchen. So picking you landlord well, not just picking the place, and keeping them nicely cultivated, in a way a Thai can understand is in your best interest. If you don't like the people instinctively, Either take the place and write off the deposit going in, or move on to the next possible place.

I understand this...the idea that one pays forward - I get it. I'm from the US and it's always like that. However, the facts here are slightly different. I feel like a bit of a schmuck for siding with the landlord in keeping most of my security deposit, but here's the deal: I paid three months 'security deposit" when I moved in but I did not pay anything characterized as 'rent'. The first 'rent' was paid one month after I moved in. Therefore, I stayed before I paid. That may not be how it is everywhere, but that's what the payment history shows. Therefore, at move out, I not only owe the last month rent, but also the previous month rent. Again, that's what the payment history shows.

Well, one could say that, "really, Jawnie, you did pay the first month rent when you moved in...it was part of the three months you paid day one - they are just calling it security deposit". If one were to recharacterize the three month security deposit as really being one month rent and two month security deposit, it doesn't change things much. It only means I have only two month security deposit. And of course, there is always the dance and negotiation about damages and whatnot at the end.

The manager is offering to pay that one month arrears payment out of the security deposit along with the final two weeks rent I owe. If I do that, then fully one-half of the security deposit is gone....and accounted for. I'm inclined to do that rather than hand over more cash and then try negotiating on the security deposit, which they already have.

Yes, it's somewhat ass-backwards but it all keys off the fact that I did not make a rent payment until day 31 of moving in. Again, it seems foolish to side with the landlord, but that what the payment history shows.

[animatic]

I would say;

you paid first month, rent in advance,

on one month equivalent as deposit

and the last months rent.

Then 1 month later you paid the 2nd month in advance.

And in the end got stiffed for half the deposit in the end.

Which for here is not bad.

But you were never, ever going to get equivalent 2 months deposit.

or 1 1/2 to get half your deposit back and not pay last month is doing well here.

No matter how the LL phrased it, this must what transpired.

Do you know any Thai that gives an unknown farang free rent upfront?

I had taken over occupancy of one place that I had shared for a few months when I just arrived,

I never paid a deposit, but the original person in there, my ex boss, DID get his deposit back after

4 years, even if he hadn't lived there in over 2.

And I had a second property next 2 doors over as a work space, and had no problem even after making significant modifications to the space, that were then removed and made to not ever appear to have been done.

But I did think, on being here several years now, that this was an exceptional landlord.

He even took half a day off to take me through Tessaban to get an adress on my home I had built.

No longer a renter, but he still is nice as pie.

Edited April 4, 2013 by animatic

[spidermike007]

I've rented three places away from home while teaching. The normal practice was a security deposit and first month's rent up front and each month's rent in advance on the first of the month. The trick was getting the security deposit back I moved out.

Getting money back from the average Thai is tricky. Can be difficult. Would refer to your lease. There are a few honorable folks out there. Hopefully you are dealing with one of the 10%.

Mike Macarelli

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Jawnie]

I would say;

you paid first month, rent in advance,

on one month equivalent as deposit

and the last months rent.

Then 1 month later you paid the 2nd month in advance.

And in the end got stiffed for half the deposit in the end.

Which for here is not bad.

But you were never, ever going to get equivalent 2 months deposit.

or 1 1/2 to get half your deposit back and not pay last month is doing well here.

No matter how the LL phrased it, this must what transpired.

Do you know any Thai that gives an unknown farang free rent upfront?

I had taken over occupancy of one place that I had shared for a few months when I just arrived,

I never paid a deposit, but the original person in there, my ex boss, DID get his deposit back after

4 years, even if he hadn't lived there in over 2.

And I had a second property next 2 doors over as a work space, and had no problem even after making significant modifications to the space, that were then removed and made to not ever appear to have been done.

But I did think, on being here several years now, that this was an exceptional landlord.

He even took half a day off to take me through Tessaban to get an adress on my home I had built.

No longer a renter, but he still is nice as pie.

Again, I hate to sound like I'm defending the landlord. You have simply re-characterized the three month deposit by calling 1/3 of it 'first months rent', 1/3 'deposit' and 1/3 'last months rent'. However, the lease calls it 'three month deposit'. It's all the same chunk of money. Now, on the landlord's records, it shows my first actual rent payment at day 31 - not day 1. Therefore, I did not pay first month's rent upon move in; no rent was paid until day 31. This is how the payment record reads. Whether the books are cooked is a whole different matter. Suffice it to say I live in a large complex with 1,000+ rooms with a sophisticated, state of the art, computerized accounting system which recalled my entire payment history instantly. Whether or not this system is rigged is beyond my capacity to question (least I want to spend two more years in Thailand litigating it to get 1.5 month security deposit returned...not!)

So, you can not say it the way you have even though in theory it may work like that. But, it doesn't work like that because I've still got the three month deposit on record. Now it can be converted to rent to pay 1.5 months of rent now owed, but that's not being stiffed as I see it. If the payment history showed that on day 1 I paid one month rent AND three month security deposit, then you are correct. But, that's not the history. It seems more prudent at this point to use the deposit to pay the rent they are asking rather than handing over more cash. There's little difference except they've already got the money. Why would I give them one month's rent now and then get it back from them on move out as security deposit? I should keep my money in my pocket.

Then I'd have 1.5 months deposit remaining over which I and the manager 'do the dance' about damages, cleaning, etc.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Jawnie

[Jawnie]

I've rented three places away from home while teaching. The normal practice was a security deposit and first month's rent up front and each month's rent in advance on the first of the month. The trick was getting the security deposit back I moved out.

Getting money back from the average Thai is tricky. Can be difficult. Would refer to your lease. There are a few honorable folks out there. Hopefully you are dealing with one of the 10%.

Mike Macarelli

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I agree. The problem is that the lease is in Thai and the four so-called Thai 'friends' I asked to check my lease have all disappeared or run away in the opposite direction. F me.....

[darrendsd]

Ask the manager to come to the room and point out any damages that you may have made

If he can't then be polite but firm in demanding the full deposit back because you can bet that it will go in his pocket and the Condo owners will not see any of it.

Thais are notorious for not giving deposits back, I had a similar problem myself a few years ago in getting a deposit back but once they saw I was not going to back down until I got the full deposit back they caved in, the problem is most Thai tenants accept that they will lose the deposit so managers/owners think we will be the same

Polite but firm and show him/her that you are no pushover if he still refuses then ask to speak to the Condo owners, he might not want the hassle and cave in

[Jawnie]

Ask the manager to come to the room and point out any damages that you may have made

If he can't then be polite but firm in demanding the full deposit back because you can bet that it will go in his pocket and the Condo owners will not see any of it.

Thais are notorious for not giving deposits back, I had a similar problem myself a few years ago in getting a deposit back but once they saw I was not going to back down until I got the full deposit back they caved in, the problem is most Thai tenants accept that they will lose the deposit so managers/owners think we will be the same

Polite but firm and show him/her that you are no pushover if he still refuses then ask to speak to the Condo owners, he might not want the hassle and cave in

As it turns out, there was no damage and the landlord was quite fair about the move out. She did not charge me any unnecessary fees beyond a 650 cleaning fee which was written into the lease. Nor did she cheat me or bait-and-switch me on rent payments. As I said before, in my case I was always paying for the past month not the future month. As odd as that is it is what my situation was. I came out clean.....whoopee!!