Alcohol,intoxication & A Clear Mind

[nokia]

Man has been making & drinking Wine for thousands of years if not longer.

We know that alcoholism is bad, too much alcohol is bad for the body. And drunken driving kills.

How about moderate amounts? Why is alcohol deemed completely as bad, considered as pleasure-seeking,and included as one of the monastic precepts(Do not consume alchohol or drugs) that monks have to keep,even lay buddhists are encouraged to do so?

In LOS, beer is cheap, and weather can be rather warm. Has anyone given up this particular pleasure for religious reasons and would like to encourage the others to do so?

----------

Attachment is a great example. We can be attached to our need for alchohol (addiction)

The prohibition against alchohol clearly extends to other intoxicants because they cloud the mind and lead of lack of mindfulness.

"What are the six dangers of addition to strong drink [i.e. wine, beer, etc.] and sloth producing drugs [marijuana, bhang, etc.]: present waste of money, increased quarelling, liability to sickness, loss of good name, indecent exposure of one's person and weakening of the intellect."

-- Sigalaka sutta

"Those who recognize me as their master should not drink any strong liquor, even a drop on a blade of grass"

-- Sutra quoted in Abhidharmakosha bhasyam.

Fortunately, serious practitioners always give up intoxicants once they learn to appreciate a clear mind.

[robitusson]

In 2002 I took a Samaya vow with Thrangu Rinpoche never to consume any intoxicants of any kind for life. I've taken it to mean that coffee and tea are fine but obviously it means no booze and drugs. I've kept it so far. One of the best moves I've ever made. No regrets whatsoever.

Edited March 19, 2006 by robitusson

[deadman]

this is a particularly relevent topic for me at the moment. For me, there is a clear division between drinking alcohol in a very moderate social sense, and drinking alcohol with the intention of intoxication. Though, i recognize that there can be a fine line between these two.

There have been times when i would have one or two beers with a colleague, and have no inclination for more. This was a period when my Practice had a lot of momentum, and a couple of beers never appeared to undermine my judgement or my general 'defense systems' (ie. mindfulness). Somewhat unfortunately, my Practice has lost some of that momentum, and while i don't have a 'drinking problem' as such, from a dhammic point of view, my drinking does tend to now undermine those defense systems. As you said, 'in LOS beer is cheap, and the weather can be rather warm'.........i might add, 'the girls are beautiful and are very available'. So for me, breaking the precept of abstaining from intoxicants, can result in a downward spiral that jeopodises the whole structure of my sila. And this is the biggest danger in intoxication. Currently i am working on regaining the lost momentum in my Practice, and one of the ways i hope to do this, is to abstain from alcohol.

As i see it, the impact of sensual objects on the sense bases invariably leads to some form of intoxication. Music, food, visual objects, thoughts ect. are all subtley intoxicating. It is simply not possible to abstain from all objects that may stimulate our craving. However, alcohol is one stimulant that can be abstained from. There's no doubt that abstinence is the best choice. However, if someone can genuinely drink moderately in a social situation, i don't think they should make too big an issue over it.

w/metta

dm

[robitusson]

What do you mean by "sila"?

[deadman]

Dear Khun Robitusson:

'Sila' is usually translated as 'morality'. Sila, samadhi (concentration) and 'panna' (wisdom) are seen as the three necessary pre-requisites for developing the qualities necessary for progressing on the Path.

________________________________________________________________________________

_

Having given some further thought to this topic, my experience leads me to the conclusion that intoxicants do not always have a negative influence on the Path. There are two reasons why I say this. Last year I had some dental treatment, and requested nitrous oxide, ostesibly to calm me, but in reality because I was curious as to how it would affect my mind/heart state. Interestingly enough, the experience resulted in some Insights that were quite profound. Firstly, it made clear the cognitive processes of the dentist and his assistant. And secondly I came to see a clear distinction between the thought processes and the (so called) thinker.

I had another experience that was precipated by smoking cannibis. This fostered an incredible sense of distance between the experience and the (so called) subject of that experience. This lasted for some time, and i could only conclude that this was a taste of what it must be like to be free of the 'stain' of me-ness (or selfhood). Both these experiences have proved invaluable to me in my formal Practice, reminding me that the there is a sharp distinction between the experience and the experiencer.

We must keep in mind that when the Buddha set the wheel of Dhamma in motion, he was aware that it had to nourish many generations to come. Hence he had to be realistic as to what he exhorted and what he condemned. I'm certainly not saying that nitrous or cannibis (or any other intoxicant) will result in Insights (capital 'I') that will foster progresson the path to Liberation. But, by the same token, I don't believe intoxicants are always inimical to progress on The Path. For me the Insights that have been triggered by intoxicants have been proceded by many years of intensive formal and informal meditation Practice.

w/metta

dm

[ThaiPauly]

I consider myself a Bhuddist, but like many Bhuddists in Thialand I drink... sometimes a lot more than is good for me.

However I don't unduly worry about it. I am not a Monk.

Obviously you are aware that I have the greatest of respect for Monks but as I said I am a layman.. I am good in many ways ... but I am not perfect and never will be.

I am unconcerned about the consequenses of my "over imbibing" as I firmly believe in Karma. If drink kills me I will still be reborn a good person, because I am inherently a "Good Man"

In other words I know I will be OK.

this may go against the grain on this sub forum... but I call it the way I see it

don't sweat it

[nokia]

well,i do not consider myself as a buddhist, but i gave up drinking two years ago.

Now, I'm learning to appreciate a clear mind, and to be detached from the need for alcohol.

Occasionally, i do get strange looks/qns from friends, "hello this is LOS, why dont you drink?"

What's my weakness then? i couldnt stop after a glass or two. There's simply no kick.

If there's alcohol, esp free beer or hard liquor at a party or on board a plane, or when i'm giving a treat, simply go for as many glasses as possible.

Certainly not to the point of being completely drunk, but maybe semi-intoxicated, feeling high, and free from the worries of life, but able to get home safely in one piece...

--

Samudaya-The cause of suffering is the desire to have or control things

[ourmanflint]

There is the view that taking drugs such as Peyote, LSD, MArijuana etc, actually have the exact same effect as medititating and fasting for long periods, it reproduces the chemical state attained in such techniques. I agree completely with that, Native Americans use Peyote to contact their spirit guides as do various tribes in the amazon.

Alcohol does tend to befuddle the mind though, as I'm getting older I find myself drinking less and less... a clear head and sharp mind are reward enough!!

Unless you are a monk, I see no benefit in not enjoying every moment of life, buddhism is about the joys of living, not like western faiths which are prescriptive and full of "thou shalt not...." etc..

Living a happy and good life is a million times more important than a few lines of scripture.

IMHO

[nokia]

this is a particularly relevent topic for me at the moment. For me, there is a clear division between drinking alcohol in a very moderate social sense, and drinking alcohol with the intention of intoxication. Though, i recognize that there can be a fine line between these two.

There have been times when i would have one or two beers with a colleague, and have no inclination for more. This was a period when my Practice had a lot of momentum, and a couple of beers never appeared to undermine my judgement or my general 'defense systems' (ie. mindfulness). Somewhat unfortunately, my Practice has lost some of that momentum, and while i don't have a 'drinking problem' as such, from a dhammic point of view, my drinking does tend to now undermine those defense systems. As you said, 'in LOS beer is cheap, and the weather can be rather warm'.........i might add, 'the girls are beautiful and are very available'. So for me, breaking the precept of abstaining from intoxicants, can result in a downward spiral that jeopodises the whole structure of my sila. And this is the biggest danger in intoxication. Currently i am working on regaining the lost momentum in my Practice, and one of the ways i hope to do this, is to abstain from alcohol.

As i see it, the impact of sensual objects on the sense bases invariably leads to some form of intoxication. Music, food, visual objects, thoughts ect. are all subtley intoxicating. It is simply not possible to abstain from all objects that may stimulate our craving. However, alcohol is one stimulant that can be abstained from. There's no doubt that abstinence is the best choice. However, if someone can genuinely drink moderately in a social situation, i don't think they should make too big an issue over it.

w/metta

dm

Well said, researchers have proven that alchohol & dim light makes EVERYONE more attractive.

Even a lady that we wouldnt normally look at in broad day light, rated 5 out of 10, becomes a 7-8 , when our sensual feelings are aroused through the effects of alcohol. Guys who are too shy to approach a lady, would suddenly get a sense of false bravado to do it, while those who are already bold enough, would do even crazier things or go beyond that. Some get loud and obnoxious, others become more cheeky once alcohol takes away all their inhibitions.

Certainly, we are not here to pass judgement like some western religions,but to understand & encourage one another to have a clearer mind, and a superior conduct. Everyone is free to live his/her life as he/she deemed as fitting. No abbot from no temple is coming to no house to remind anybody any precepts.

--

Prajna-Discernment or the ability to make good judgement, insight, wisdom and enlightenment will emerge if your mind is pure and calm.

[robitusson]

There is the view that taking drugs such as Peyote, LSD, MArijuana etc, actually have the exact same effect as medititating and fasting for long periods, it reproduces the chemical state attained in such techniques.

Sorry, but that comparison is rubbish. Meditation is not about achieving fantastic and artificial states of mind. It's about gradually developing control over your thought processes and not losing control, like when under the effect of drugs. I've smoked plenty of marijuana and taken LSD and mushrooms, as I'm sure plenty of TV members have, and the effects are absolutely nothing like concentrated and prolonged meditation.

Edited March 22, 2006 by robitusson

[suegha]

...buddhism is about the joys of living, not like western faiths which are prescriptive and full of "thou shalt not...." etc..

Living a happy and good life is a million times more important than a few lines of scripture.

IMHO

I have to take issue with this! The thread is about alcohol, intoxication and a clear mind. In Christianity (a Western faith?) there is no prohibition on alcohol, Ecclesiastes 9:7 "...eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart;". The warning of the bible is aginst 'drunkenness'. Consider Ephesians 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;" The 'excess' refers to the bad behaviour which results in too much alcohol consumption.

Interestingly, the Lord Jesus was referred to as "...Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber..." in Matthew 9 and Luke 7. So he obviously enjoyed his food and wine!

Edited March 22, 2006 by suegha

[aaaaaa]

Has anyone given up this particular pleasure for religious reasons and would like to encourage the others to do so?

I have such experience of both doing that and encouraging others - not only weaker (less addictive) intoxications as alchohol and tobacco, but stroger too.

yes, intoxications cloud mind and distract from spiritual prictice. however abstinence itself is not sufficient to make mind clear - as only negation process. the void has to be filled, otherwise it would be filled automatically. there must be sufficient positive impact or replacement of bad habits and "forbidden pleasures" by good and beneficial for spiritaul growth. and in fact such positive or "spiritual pleasures" must be stronger and make one "higher" than those mundane things. otherwise one would end up with same things again - drinking, smiking, etc. because taste to old things remains despite abstinence and would urge one to return back to those very same intoxications.

therefore - develop "higher taste", and low taste will automatically subside and dissapear - and one would naturally give up intoxications and whatever other bad habits, because he has something beter than that !

[ThaiPauly]

yes, intoxications cloud mind and distract from spiritual prictice. however abstinence itself is not sufficient to make mind clear - as only negation process. the void has to be filled, otherwise it would be filled automatically.

Thats why many people turn to Alcoholics Anonymous to fill the void left when they stop drinking...and for many it is their salvation

[ourmanflint]

There is the view that taking drugs such as Peyote, LSD, MArijuana etc, actually have the exact same effect as medititating and fasting for long periods, it reproduces the chemical state attained in such techniques.

Sorry, but that comparison is rubbish. Meditation is not about achieving fantastic and artificial states of mind. It's about gradually developing control over your thought processes and not losing control, like when under the effect of drugs. I've smoked plenty of marijuana and taken LSD and mushrooms, as I'm sure plenty of TV members have, and the effects are absolutely nothing like concentrated and prolonged meditation.

Hi ... please read what I actually said then try to understand why I said it, then if you disagree try to convince me that you're on the right track and I am not! Don't just say "that's rubbish.."

Anyway unless you have experience of meditating for periods greater than a few hours, I'm afraid you would not have knowledge as to the chemical state of the brain after several days of meditiation AND fasting!! ( I said "long periods"... days not hours my friend!! )I didn't just make this stuff up.. what's the point of that, I was just pointing out something which has been noted by various anthropologists studying North American Indians.

[britmaveric]

Moderation is the key - whatever excesses one may enjoy.

[ourmanflint]

...buddhism is about the joys of living, not like western faiths which are prescriptive and full of "thou shalt not...." etc..

Living a happy and good life is a million times more important than a few lines of scripture.

IMHO

I have to take issue with this! The thread is about alcohol, intoxication and a clear mind. In Christianity (a Western faith?) there is no prohibition on alcohol, Ecclesiastes 9:7 "...eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart;". The warning of the bible is aginst 'drunkenness'. Consider Ephesians 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;" The 'excess' refers to the bad behaviour which results in too much alcohol consumption.

Interestingly, the Lord Jesus was referred to as "...Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber..." in Matthew 9 and Luke 7. So he obviously enjoyed his food and wine!

Good for Jesus.. he liked to knock a few back, I"m sure he was a great guy! It's just everyone since I suppose, don't try and pretend that either the Catholic Church or the Church of England are not against alcohol! (except for wine I guess, which is even used in church as part of the sacrament.)

[suegha]

...buddhism is about the joys of living, not like western faiths which are prescriptive and full of "thou shalt not...." etc..

Living a happy and good life is a million times more important than a few lines of scripture.

IMHO

I have to take issue with this! The thread is about alcohol, intoxication and a clear mind. In Christianity (a Western faith?) there is no prohibition on alcohol, Ecclesiastes 9:7 "...eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart;". The warning of the bible is aginst 'drunkenness'. Consider Ephesians 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;" The 'excess' refers to the bad behaviour which results in too much alcohol consumption.

Interestingly, the Lord Jesus was referred to as "...Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber..." in Matthew 9 and Luke 7. So he obviously enjoyed his food and wine!

Good for Jesus.. he liked to knock a few back, I"m sure he was a great guy! It's just everyone since I suppose, don't try and pretend that either the Catholic Church or the Church of England are not against alcohol! (except for wine I guess, which is even used in church as part of the sacrament.)

I think you miss the point of my post. Sure, there are some 'western faiths' that prohibit alcohol, but according to the bible, well, read my comments above...

[Suthep_Steve]

I gave up because I found it was taking me a couple of days after a beer before I could meditate as clearly as when I was off it and that includes just the odd pint as well. Been off the booze for 14 years now and never regretted it. Still like to go to pubs and bars with mates or to watch the sport and have as good a time as I always did. I think the secret is to give up the booze but not having a good time. If you need booze to have a good time then that's a problem that needs addressing.

However to contradict myself. I once had a friend in the Dharma who was shall we say, a little serious. We visited a Lama together and his advice to my friend was "Go out get drunk and find yourself a good woman." He was a very serious student and took the Lamas advice very seriously much to everyones amusement. He's now married and much more relaxed

The Lama did point out the advice was for my friend and not for me

Edited March 29, 2006 by Suthep_Steve

[sabaijai]

I gave up because I found it was taking me a couple of days after a beer before I could meditate as clearly as when I was off it and that includes just the odd pint as well. Been off the booze for 14 years now and never regretted it. Still like to go to pubs and bars with mates or to watch the sport and have as good a time as I always did. I think the secret is to give up the booze but not having a good time. If you need booze to have a good time then that's a problem that needs addressing.

However to contradict myself. I once had a friend in the Dharma who was shall we say, a little serious. We visited a Lama together and his advice to my friend was "Go out get drunk and find yourself a good woman." He was a very serious student and took the Lamas advice very seriously much to everyones amusement. He's now married and much more relaxed

The Lama did point out the advice was for my friend and not for me

good story.

[ColPyat]

Good for Jesus.. he liked to knock a few back, I"m sure he was a great guy! It's just everyone since I suppose, don't try and pretend that either the Catholic Church or the Church of England are not against alcohol! (except for wine I guess, which is even used in church as part of the sacrament.)

I don't really understand what you are trying to say here.

But if you mean to say that the Catholic Church is against alcohol, then you are completely wrong. Catholic monastries in Europe are renowned for their excellent breweries of beer and herbal liquors since the early middle ages. A tradition that still lives on. The monks are well known to enjoy the fruits of their labors as well.

[robitusson]

Good for Jesus.. he liked to knock a few back, I"m sure he was a great guy! It's just everyone since I suppose, don't try and pretend that either the Catholic Church or the Church of England are not against alcohol! (except for wine I guess, which is even used in church as part of the sacrament.)

I don't really understand what you are trying to say here.

But if you mean to say that the Catholic Church is against alcohol, then you are completely wrong. Catholic monastries in Europe are renowned for their excellent breweries of beer and herbal liquors since the early middle ages. A tradition that still lives on. The monks are well known to enjoy the fruits of their labors as well.

Bucfast! Anyone know it?

[suegha]

Good for Jesus.. he liked to knock a few back, I"m sure he was a great guy! It's just everyone since I suppose, don't try and pretend that either the Catholic Church or the Church of England are not against alcohol! (except for wine I guess, which is even used in church as part of the sacrament.)

I don't really understand what you are trying to say here.

But if you mean to say that the Catholic Church is against alcohol, then you are completely wrong. Catholic monastries in Europe are renowned for their excellent breweries of beer and herbal liquors since the early middle ages. A tradition that still lives on. The monks are well known to enjoy the fruits of their labors as well.

Bucfast! Anyone know it?

Ah, Buckfast. Wasn't it called 'Buckfast Tonic Wine' To make it sound good for you?

[ourmanflint]

Good for Jesus.. he liked to knock a few back, I"m sure he was a great guy! It's just everyone since I suppose, don't try and pretend that either the Catholic Church or the Church of England are not against alcohol! (except for wine I guess, which is even used in church as part of the sacrament.)

I don't really understand what you are trying to say here.

But if you mean to say that the Catholic Church is against alcohol, then you are completely wrong. Catholic monastries in Europe are renowned for their excellent breweries of beer and herbal liquors since the early middle ages. A tradition that still lives on. The monks are well known to enjoy the fruits of their labors as well.

I would say in reply that, that shows the complete hypocrisy of the church!! Or is it my imagination that throughout the world priests regularly preach the evil of alcohol and the virtue in being tee-total!

[ColPyat]

I would say in reply that, that shows the complete hypocrisy of the church!! Or is it my imagination that throughout the world priests regularly preach the evil of alcohol and the virtue in being tee-total!

Yes, sorry, that is in your imagination.

Never heard the Catholic Church preaching about the "evil of alcohol".

Can't vouch though for some extremist born again sects.

[ourmanflint]

I would say in reply that, that shows the complete hypocrisy of the church!! Or is it my imagination that throughout the world priests regularly preach the evil of alcohol and the virtue in being tee-total!

Yes, sorry, that is in your imagination.

Never heard the Catholic Church preaching about the "evil of alcohol".

Can't vouch though for some extremist born again sects.

Wow.. I suppose I must be dreaming then!!

We ( the Catholic Church ) regard drunkenness as a sin. The new Catechism of the Catholic Church condemns drunken excess and illegal drugs in #2290-2291:

The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others' safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.

The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

[ColPyat]

Wow.. I suppose I must be dreaming then!!

Yes, you must be.

As your quote specifies: the Church is against "drunkeness", "drunken excess", and the "the abuse of alcohol".

It does not say anything against moderate consumption of alcohol.

And in case of the occasional drunken stupor Catholicism has the charming institution of the confession.

[suegha]

Wow.. I suppose I must be dreaming then!!

Yes, you must be.

As your quote specifies: the Church is against "drunkeness", "drunken excess", and the "the abuse of alcohol".

It does not say anything against moderate consumption of alcohol.

And in case of the occasional drunken stupor Catholicism has the charming institution of the confession.

This is the exact point I was making about that the bible says. No where does it condem alcohol consumtion. It warns against 'excess'. In fact it warns of 'excess' in many things!

[meadish_sweetball]

The Middle Path you must follow, mm. In all things, moderation the key is.

A Moderator I am, moderation is what I do. Mmm.