Nor Sor 3 Gor Problem - Any Ideas Please?

[rayinkrabi]

Hi All, strange but interesting problem has just arisen on my wife's land which she bought around 20 years ago. At the time she only built on part of the land and left a big chunk of it to grow wild (a maintenance thing I guess).

She was shocked when a couple of weeks ago a digger proceeded to level the land, upon investigation it seems one of her neighbours is claiming part it belongs to him...easily proved I thought and asked to see my wife's land paper.

The Nor Sor 3 Gor document clearly states that the land is 1 Rai 43 Sq Wah, but the small drawing of the plot (in this case a triangle) is the wrong shape, in other words the long and short sides are wrong in relation to the road. It also has measurements penciled on it showing the land to have sides of 55 mtr, 45 mtr, and 70 mtr. The actual size of the plot measures (in same order) 41.5 mtrs, 63 mtrs and 73 mtrs.

A quick calculation of the penciled measurements reveals the area to be only around 1237 sq mtrs, 535 sq mtrs short of that stated and 465 sq mtrs short of the actual...however, when using the 55 mtr length instead of the actual 41.5 side of the triangle in the calculation it comes to very close to the 1 Rai 43 sq wah.

My wife is employing a surveyor to check this out but I wonder how Thai law stands on this. Anyone out there with any ideas or experience on this please?

[bealus]

On a motorcycle tour the other day just outside of hua-hin saw at a few roads many plots of land litteraly being flagged

with bamboo sticks holding on one side of the land a red and on the other a yellow flag.

All these plots looked "low-maintenance" as stated in the post. As I was curious about the flag-thing asked some

Thai people I know and who speak quite reasonable English(perhaps better than me lol); they informed me that

"bewildered" plots of land which seemingly have not be claimed or belong to someone can indeed be "flagged"

after a certain period of time as to formerly establish ownership.

A short visit to a professional lawyer should clear things up quickly and being large interest at stake, advisable

[sscsamui]

Go to the Land Office and have someone explain your title and see how it is recorded.... You could also have someone from the land office surveyor the land

[RKASA]

Go to the Land Office and have someone explain your title and see how it is recorded.... You could also have someone from the land office surveyor the land

Get copies of the bordering properties as well - if they didn't state the property mea. on the sales agreement the map is subjective but the other properties have recorded numbers as well that border your land.

[MichaelJohn]

Is there not a rule that if you don't do something with your land for over a year and someone does something they can claim ownership (other than Chanord)?

[rayinkrabi]

Thanks all for your comments, I plan to take my wife first thing in the morning to the land office to try to clear this up and a surveyor has already been arranged. I have a bad feeling about this though as I reckon they will simply point to the scaled drawing and say something like 'hard luck but the surveyor got his sums wrong at the time'.

So I guess the main point is which part of the land paper holds 'legal'? the tiny drawing on the front or the area written on the back, in this case 1 rai 43 sq wah?

[rayinkrabi]

Just a quick update, took wifey to the land office first thing and left her to it (as she tells me they are treated 'differently' if seen with farang).

As I suspected they looked rather confused when they studied the land paper but the easiest way out of this silly mess is simply to upgrade to Chanute which is now under way. Cost just over 3000 baht but will have the land re-surveyed and proper concrete markers installed, and I'll be sure to be there to ensure my wife actually gets the full 1 rai 43 sq wah. Only snag is we have to wait until August but that's no big deal as I've already banged in lots of metal posts along the boundary.

[itchybum]

Just a quick update, took wifey to the land office first thing and left her to it (as she tells me they are treated 'differently' if seen with farang).

As I suspected they looked rather confused when they studied the land paper but the easiest way out of this silly mess is simply to upgrade to Chanute which is now under way. Cost just over 3000 baht but will have the land re-surveyed and proper concrete markers installed, and I'll be sure to be there to ensure my wife actually gets the full 1 rai 43 sq wah. Only snag is we have to wait until August but that's no big deal as I've already banged in lots of metal posts along the boundary.

See if the neighbours have chanote titles, if not and if same as yours, then their boundaries could be out little bit also.

We upgraded to chanote a couple years ago. It was also only supposed to take 3 months. We got it 3 years later, so do not hold your breath.

[ashleytiernan]

Yes Im afraid it will be time consuming but updating the chanoot is the best way forward.

[bealus]

Is there not a rule that if you don't do something with your land for over a year and someone does something they can claim ownership (other than Chanord)?

Yep, not sure about the one-year-term; but the rule exists. Family of my GF were confronted with this rule and lost a plot of land to

their "friendly neighbors"

[breadbin]

Chanote is the ONLY way to buy land,

[itchybum]

Chanote is the ONLY way to buy land,

Is not.

[mccw]

I've always been advised to stake out your land boundary clearly. Fence it preferably. That goes for any country. I think Thailand it is 10years of proved use and then squatters have rights to take over. If you let someone use or have access over land you should make contracts even if a peppercorn rent so as to avoid any future problems.

[bealus]

I've always been advised to stake out your land boundary clearly. Fence it preferably. That goes for any country. I think Thailand it is 10years of proved use and then squatters have rights to take over. If you let someone use or have access over land you should make contracts even if a peppercorn rent so as to avoid any future problems.

I've always been advised to stake out your land boundary clearly. Fence it preferably. That goes for any country. I think Thailand it is 10years of proved use and then squatters have rights to take over. If you let someone use or have access over land you should make contracts even if a peppercorn rent so as to avoid any future problems.

I've always been advised to stake out your land boundary clearly. Fence it preferably. That goes for any country. I think Thailand it is 10years of proved use and then squatters have rights to take over. If you let someone use or have access over land you should make contracts even if a peppercorn rent so as to avoid any future problems.

Agree with itchbum and mccw; many countries over the whole world know about this custom; dates back from settlers-times. I origin from

the Netherlands; generally not known for a lack of rules, laws and regulations:)) Even there a plot of land that has undefined or unclear ownership can be claimed indeed after ten years by "fencing" it in even with simple sticks and some wire or rope(hope you understand what i mean, English not being my native language). As manager for the local government I was confronted with this kind of "annexation" by

civil inhabitants who claimed marginal plots of public owned "green"; which had neglected maintenance due to budget-cuts. Of course

this can not be mirrored 1:1 to Thailand, but as I said before I have seen plots of land being "flagged" and Thai friends tell me this too.

[breadbin]

If you want to avoid issues chanote IS the way to go

Many other land titles available but chanote is the top of the tree

[Thereisnoif]

Guys , if you think you own anything as a foreigner in this country, even with a chanote, flush out your headgears .

[breadbin]

Correct to the above post

[mccw]

Guys , if you think you own anything as a foreigner in this country, even with a chanote, flush out your headgears .

There's always one isn't there

OP clearly said his wife's land.

[taninthai]

Heard it many times on here that nor sor Sam land quite often shrinks when changed to chanote something to do do with nor sir Sam never properly surveyed

[rayinkrabi]

Heard it many times on here that nor sor Sam land quite often shrinks when changed to chanote something to do do with nor sir Sam never properly surveyed

Interesting point, I'm fully expecting the surveyors might try to talk my wife into accepting a 'reduced' plot which is why I asked the question which of the 2 important parts of information on the land paper (the tiny drawing and the written area of 1 rai 43 wah) will be regarded as binding as in this case they clearly conflict.

For what its worth I think I've found the 'error'...I calculate the length along the rear boundary should actually be 64.5 metres and not the 45 metres stated, with this, the area works out exactly correct so I guess the surveyor simply couldn't read his own writing when he returned to his office. If this is true it's clear he didn't double check the calculation at the time. Ah well, I look forward to August when this will hopefully be sorted out one way or another.

Thanks to all for your input, I'll be sure to update this when the time comes as it may help others in a similar situation. Cheers, Ray.

[rayinkrabi]

Quick update on this issue...The surveyor turned up with his team as arranged (despite the heavy rain) and spent nearly 5 hours there. When they began surveying my wifes land they were quickly joined by the local 'head man' who objected strongly saying that he had sold the plot some time ago!

Things got more complicated when the surveyor pointed out that a chunk of the land had also been lost some years ago when the dirt road was replaced with a bigger one. To be honest, these chaps impressed me with their skill and thoroughness and spent ages double checking with other boundaries.

Bottom line, it seems my wife will indeed lose a lot of land (nearly half!) and the surveyor refused to answer the question of why the scaled small sketch on the nor sor 3 gor paper doesn't equal the stated size but we have to wait another month for the final result.

[Jerry Cornelius]

Chanote is the ONLY way to buy land,

Short but succinct.

The only land title that shows ownership is a chanote.

All others just give rights of use.

Jerry

[rayinkrabi]

The only land title that shows ownership is a chanote, Hmm, I have to disagree as land is indeed professionally surveyed and marked prior to being 'upgraded' to the third level of Nor Sor 3 Gor from the lower level of Nor Sor 3 (hence the issue of the land paper which looks similar to the Chanute).

The big difference is when upgrading to the fourth and highest level of Chanute they insert the small cement numbered 'markers' to denote Chanute.

The issue here is that my wifes land paper still has the dimensions shown on the paper (confirmed using a scale rule) and this is no where near the stated land area recorded (and repeated at least 6 times) on the reverse! And it now seems the surveyors have answered my initial question of which is more important.

I should add that the land was bought for my wife 20 years ago by her ex and the land paper itself is 36 years old!! such a shame nobody took the trouble to actually study & query the paper then as I reckon the 'mistake' is now irreversible.

[Khun Jean]

Probably lost a lot of land when the neighbours put up a notification when it was upgraded to NS3G. Three months time to disagree with borderlines which people just draw themselve.

That was probably the time when borders were fixed and registered.

However, not good to dwell over the past just make sure that does not happen in the future.

And hope that it will be a chanote quick. If you get that, build a fence with concrete pillars goin at least 1 meter in the ground to make moving them difficult.