The Thai Mirage - I Met A Thai Girl That Was Working In Ferangland.

[wellred]

Yes, you're right it is a mirage. But there's also another mirage; the mirage where style and status are more important than intellectual substance and accountability. Hence the need for "Sinsod will only be for show, so people can see I can look after her." If you're happy to go along with such a shallow cultural concept, then so be it but, as you've already noted, there's going to be a lot of compromising going on from you and probably not that much from the other side:"the last thing they want to do is speak english in thailand. I believe most thais will only speak english given proper motivation, they just don't if they didn't have to. Some of her uni friends speak almost fluent educated english and still they won't speak english with me." Xenophobia at the extreme and shows how insular they can be compared to citizens of other S.E.Asian nations ie; Vietnam where the local go out of their way to try and speak English simply because they understand the importance of the language in the big picture. The bottom line for me is what, exactly, would a Thai woman, even an educated type, bring to the table to improve my life on the planet. After 20 years of living in the country I can state, quite confidently, that it's not very much. It's not like you can give them 2 million baht and expect them to double it for you through shrewd investments or business acumen. Sorry to say but even your middle class, educated types are myopic; with eating, shopping, iphone, thai TV and idle gossip filling the majority of their waking hours. No doubt the defenders of the realm, and the apologists, will get stuck into me but I don't give a shit; I've seen, and heard, it all before. The mirage that you talk about is but one of the many mirages in this country and the most important mirage that you need to get to grips with is the one where you might think you are the most important person in your Thai woman's life. You keep your mirage and I'll have mine; the one where I remain single, make use of P4P mirage on Saturday nights and not have to be concerned about showing a bunch of people, who aren't really interested in me, that I'm wealthy enough to take care of their daughter.<br /><br /><br />

Hit the nail on head there mate! I think ultimately for a lot of guys finding a girl in Thailand for a long term relationship (even someone working in the nightlife industry) is last chance saloon for them as they have never been able to find something sustainable in farang land. Not saying all are like this.

When I do get married I want my wife to bring something to the relationship. Being cute and speaking baby english can only get you so far tbh and I wonder just how many Thai Farang relationships go as far as the 10/15/20 year milestones.

It's because of that my philosophy with Thailand is go there for holiday only, have my fun be it with bar girls or normal girls, and leave it at that.

[SteeleJoe]

@SJ and HS

I also read a survey done by CM university, it's online somewhere, and they concluded.

50% of 15 year old boys in CM province had used the services of a prostitute and 90% of male university students in CM had used the services of a brothel.

Well, that doesn't actually support the posit that commercial sex is available so widely but it does support the fact that Thai men make up the vast majority of those who patronize sex workers.

It has changed significantly in recent times as premarital sex and sexual promiscuity among "good girls" is far more common but studies in the not so distant past show that up to 90% of Thai men had their first sexual experience with a prostitute and that a very high percentage patronized them regularly.

For whatever that's worth...

[HardenedSoul]

@SJ and HS

I also read a survey done by CM university, it's online somewhere, and they concluded.

50% of 15 year old boys in CM province had used the services of a prostitute and 90% of male university students in CM had used the services of a brothel.

That only suggests that those guys knew where to find paid sex.

It's not the same as saying that one can walk down any given street and find a knocking shop, is it?

[wellred]

OP I dare you to post this over on Pattaya Addicts. Come on man this will be hilarious.

[SteeleJoe]

When I do get married I want my wife to bring something to the relationship. Being cute and speaking baby english can only get you so far tbh and I wonder just how many Thai Farang relationships go as far as the 10/15/20 year milestones.

Far be it from me to suggest how you should enjoy Thailand but when I left my country last time, people said I was crazy to leave behind the highly educated, well paid, and beautiful girl that hoped to marry me and circa 27 years later I'm with a woman who remains cute but never spoke baby English (though we've always spoken Thai together far more than English and for the first 10 years almost exclusively that) and who brought as much or more than I did to the relationship...and we've been together for over 20 years.

My point is, it is simply not the case that one is by no means forced to choose between using Thailand only as a holiday to have fun with girls or having a wife who brings only cuteness and baby English to the relationship.

[SteeleJoe]

That only suggests that those guys knew where to find paid sex.

It's not the same as saying that one can walk down any given street and find a knocking shop, is it?

1) Yes, it does. And it's hardly the minority that know it or can easily find out.

2) No, it isn't. But no one has suggested that.

[SteeleJoe]

OK, decided to put the effort into reading the OP - no disrespect but frankly, it wasn't worth it. A mixture of a bit of common sense stuff that anyone with a bit of a brain and any time in Thailand would know, some totally idealized paternalistic silliness, some naïveté, and some ignorance...

But the writer's heart is in the right place and I really shouldn't be so hard on him...

[maxme]

Prostitution on almost every road?? Do you even live in Thailand?

You have already posted where you live, so hard for you to claim it isn't happening on your road, and on a massive scale.

I live in a quiet Thai only moobaan, house next door but one, owned by a karaoke manageress, and all her girls seem to sleep there (off and on).

Small sample, but I'm sure everyone that can understand Thai will know of a few workers in their road.

Prostitution is a massive problem in Thailand, but everyone chooses to sweep it under the carpet.

Sorry but just for the record... are you saying that "Soi Cowboy" represents the whole Asoke area?

[bigbamboo]

Middle class? What jobs would they be then?

I think the majority if people in the UK are working class aren't they?

Working in an office or being a civil servant doesn't make you middle class.

I think people's perception if what middle class is not correct.

I am a plumber, working class but live in a house worth half a million Gbp.

A bank manager who works and lives in a flat is also working class,

Loadsamoney!

[i claudius]

I have lived here off and on for years ,ran a buisness and now live here with my family ,we also lived in the UK , there are two sides to your life here ,there is the walking street kind of life and there is the normal everyday ,shopping in tesco life ,one was great for a time ,now i am more than happy with the Tesco style life.

[Morakot]

You could have written that topic in 2-3 paragraphs - time to put the bong down.

I confess my eyes glazed over pretty quickly and I only managed to skim over it...

[Stradavarius37]

We drive all around bangkok suburbs going to different places at night and I haven't seen any bargirls or scrupulous looking massage parlours anywhere.

So you are suggesting the "entertainment industry" has only been put in place in Thailand to cater to farangs/tourists only and it doesnt exist outside this areas ?...my my...one could suggest the "Local entertainment" industry catering to Thai's is far bigger...one has to only drive down a certain road in BKK and see the numerous up market "entertainment establishments"..some of which were/are owned by Thai politians..these places most certainly were not established for the tourist market...

I believe most thais will only speak english given proper motivation, they just don't if they didn't have to. Some of her uni friends speak almost fluent educated english and still they won't speak english with me.

I believe most Thai's cant speak English, so no amount of proper motivation will get them to.....as to your last statement..how do you know they speak almost fluent English if they will not speak to you in English ?...

they reason they are not even trying to speak English in the conversation is that they assume you speak no Thai ?...and they dont want you to know what they are talking about...or they are just out and out rude..

Having been working here almost 12 years with an MNC, I have yet to meet a Thai who speaks "almost fluent educated English", very good English most certainly, lots of them but almost "fluent educated English"..no, of course we may define differently what constitutes "educated fluent English"

Me thinks its you seeing a mirage..

Apisit does, so does Korn. So do countless professors at Mahidol where I teach.

[SteeleJoe]

You could have written that topic in 2-3 paragraphs - time to put the bong down.

I confess my eyes glazed over pretty quickly and I only managed to skim over it...

I loved the show but maybe I don't remember it well enough - I can't work out what you are trying to say (but if you are making a comparison of me to Mrs. Bluth...that wouldn't be very flattering)

[SteeleJoe]

Apisit does, so does Korn. So do countless professors at Mahidol where I teach.

Countless professors at Mahidol speak fluent English? That surprises me a bit. In any case to suggest that they are representative sampling of the average Thai or anything more than a relative minority would be ridiculous. To suggest that Abhisit is even beyond that (born in England, student there from 11yo, Etonian, Oxford - if he didn't have better English skills than a great many native speakers, it would be extremely odd - and he does.)

Perhaps you were joking?

Just noticed you mentioned Korn too - just as funny. Also born in England, also educated there from boyhood at the very best schools and a classmate with Abhisit at Oxford.

Edited May 4, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[rayongchelsea]

What the op is saying is basically true..

However to even think that you will ever understand or work out this country is a lost cause.

The world over decent people live decent lives doing normal things..

Don't expect that to be true in or around the bar scene.....it's full of slappers..they are not doing a normal thing..paying for sex is not a normal scene, having a bar girl as a girlfriend is not a normal thing..what the op is therefore trying to say..in the end Thais are just normal people like anywhere else but got hit by the mirage..

I can say one thing about Thailand, no other country is like it, the initial perception is so far removed from reality..and there in lies the problem for the disillusioned, the balcony jumpers, the massive expectations of some individuals which contrasts with reality when it hits must be difficult to handle.

Knowing it for what it is and enjoying it for what it is...start thinking this is normal Thailand..trouble..

[wellred]

When I do get married I want my wife to bring something to the relationship. Being cute and speaking baby english can only get you so far tbh and I wonder just how many Thai Farang relationships go as far as the 10/15/20 year milestones.

Far be it from me to suggest how you should enjoy Thailand but when I left my country last time, people said I was crazy to leave behind the highly educated, well paid, and beautiful girl that hoped to marry me and circa 27 years later I'm with a woman who remains cute but never spoke baby English (though we've always spoken Thai together far more than English and for the first 10 years almost exclusively that) and who brought as much or more than I did to the relationship...and we've been together for over 20 years.

My point is, it is simply not the case that one is by no means forced to choose between using Thailand only as a holiday to have fun with girls or having a wife who brings only cuteness and baby English to the relationship.

I think your situation and subsequent relationship was helped by the fact that she was educated so I suspect you as a pairing were able to connect on more levels, ultimately leading to a more solid relationship. I also think this kind of paring is not the norm for farang/thai marriages. Sounds like you did ok though so thumbs up.

[Morakot]

I loved the show but maybe I don't remember it well enough - I can't work out what you are trying to say (but if you are making a comparison of me to Mrs. Bluth...that wouldn't be very flattering)

Don't worry SJ. That's more how I looked after seeing the length of the OP.

[SteeleJoe]

I think your situation and subsequent relationship was helped by the fact that she was educated so I suspect you as a pairing were able to connect on more levels, ultimately leading to a more solid relationship. I also think this kind of paring is not the norm for farang/thai marriages. Sounds like you did ok though so thumbs up.

Just to be clear - as my previous perhaps was not - the woman I described with the great pedigree was my girlfriend in the US (though she was South American - a diplomat's daughter). My wife can not be described as her Thai counterpart in terms of where they would be placed on the Thai social hierarchy. I am NOT the stereotype of the TVF member with a Hi So Chinese wife etc etc

As for my wife, yes we did have more basis on which to connect - beyond what you have mentioned, she is one of the most intelligent and insightful people I've ever known (and is viewed that way by all my family and friends), we have similar tastes in art and music, and we share a similar outlook of life and people. But the point is that while I was extremely fortunate to meet her and win her over, it was not entirely an accident. I chose to study her language and culture for years before I met her (and without that knowledge I'd never have met her let alone wound up with her) and I chose not to settle for someone less special and I looked in the right place, put in the right amount of effort. Having said that, and going back to my point that there is more out there than just women only worth a bit of fun, I was a reasonably ok looking fit young man with work that allowed me to meet a LOT of attractive women and while I certainly could have settled for a cute baby talking girl, I also met many attractive women who had a lot going for them - not all of them highly educated or anything of the sort - and who a guy would be lucky to have.

If what I have is not the norm for Farang/Thai marriages - and that may be so ( but then again I don't think a lot Farangs have a marriage with another Farang as special as my wife) - it is largely because of choices made by the respective Farang and Thai. My wife never would have wound up with a guy who would have settled for a cute baby talker (and frankly probably not most Farangs in Thailand - language skills being one reason but not the only one) and I wouldn't have chosen someone that I didn't know really well and with whom I had a real foundation for a life together.

I'm not claiming I'm special. Plenty of people who have more going for them than I did (certainly materially speaking - I was broke). I'm saying that - like anywhere - it's not easy to find someone really good to make a life with, but there's no reason it has to be impossible here.

Choices. If you just want to have fun here, by all means do so. But if that's all you can do here, that's down to your own limitations (self imposed or otherwise)....

...and your choices.

[SteeleJoe]

Damn. That turned out WAY too long.

Gotta watch that stream of consciousness stuff...

[Thakkar]

Shorter version of the OP:

Anyone who visits Disneyland for a week and then assumes the whole of America is exactly like that would rightly be called an idiot. Same here.

T

[NeverSure]

If all of these girlfriends who are fluent in English are refusing to speak to you in English, they are dissing you. They are deliberately leaving you out of the group.

I have to wonder why that's OK with your GF, as in, "where do you really fit in here?"

I'm sure you have an answer as you have Thailand and life in general all figured out.

Edited May 4, 2013 by NeverSure

[SteeleJoe]

Shorter version of the OP:

Anyone who visits Disneyland for a week and then assumes the whole of America is exactly like that would rightly be called an idiot. Same here.

T

Excellent.

And anyone who thinks that life on holiday (even an extended one) can be compared to a sustainable day today existence over the long haul is almost as much so...but so many guys choose to live here and choose their mate based on the experience they had on a holiday - it works out well sometimes but only of one is rather lucky and one adapts in certain ways (not the least of which, a change of lifestyle: that's the part the OP got right).

[SteeleJoe]

If all of these girlfriends who are fluent in English are refusing to speak to you in English, they are dissing you. They are deliberately leaving you out of the group.

I have to wonder why that's OK with your GF, as in, "where do you really fit in here?"

Absolutely. Agree with all of that.

But I have my doubts about the existence of all these nearly fluent Thai women. (Before someone jumps on me, I'm not saying at al that such women don't exist.)

Edited May 4, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[kevvy]

wasted 5 minutes of my time reading this

[SteeleJoe]

wasted 5 minutes of my time reading this

How tragic.

(It hardly seems fair - one should be able to come on ThaiVisa and be guaranteed the sort of productive and beneficial results one expects from the time invested. Time wasting on TVF? Outrageous.)

[slothful1]

Just got home, Thanks everyone for reading my rant. It probably reads very cliche to a lot of the thailand veterans, I've not spent very long in thailand compared to most people (everyone?) here.

I'm not experienced at writing like this, maybe next time I'll summarise it.

Some great comments.. I love how some of you analyze the smaller details of my post, classic.. theres nothing going on guys, it's just normal life.

And theres a real localized vibe going on in this forum also.

I realized the post wouldn't be to everyones liking but after reading the thread about the weather, I thought it would be ok..

And just to clarify, I never made a mention of having this place worked out. I just wanted to share my thoughts and observations, and thanks for all your perspectives, I've certainly learned something today.

Edited May 4, 2013 by slothful1

[Eesat]

I think what you mention is one of the big reasons for so much discord on TV. Some people are here for the bar scene. That's where they go & what they do; everyone they meet is from that world. They form an opinion of Thailand on that basis.

Others might have started there & moved on to a more "wholesome" lifestyle, like yourself.

Others (like me) never went through the bar-hopping mode. We've spent our time with "normal" Thai people & families, with normal jobs, having very little interaction with farangs at any level. And form an opinion of Thailand on that basis.

So we all come up with vastly different views of what Thailand really is.

Most of the Thai people I know are college educated, been working in a professional field for many years, are not too interested in/concerned about my perceived wealth, they are capable of reading maps & giving directions, they read books (some avidly), are not wealthy, have no interest in meeting farang, have traveled moderately internationally, mostly with their Thai friends. From so many discussions on this forum, you would think that Thai people like this simply don't exist. They do!

You obviously don't realise but people like you who claim to have "very little interaction with farangs",while being one yourself just come across as aloof and more than a little bit strange.Are you on the run from your home country and that's why you avoid interaction with your countrymen?

Let me put you straight on something anyway,to the Thais you are and always will be a 'Farang' and no amount of brown nosing to them is going to change that!

Oh yes and if your Thai friends "have no interest in meeting farang",why on earth would they travel internationally?How utterly ridiculous!

Your post actually makes embarrassing reading to be quite honest!

Edited May 4, 2013 by Eesat

[Eesat]

Yes, you're right it is a mirage. But there's also another mirage; the mirage where style and status are more important than intellectual substance and accountability. Hence the need for "Sinsod will only be for show, so people can see I can look after her." If you're happy to go along with such a shallow cultural concept, then so be it but, as you've already noted, there's going to be a lot of compromising going on from you and probably not that much from the other side:"the last thing they want to do is speak english in thailand. I believe most thais will only speak english given proper motivation, they just don't if they didn't have to. Some of her uni friends speak almost fluent educated english and still they won't speak english with me." Xenophobia at the extreme and shows how insular they can be compared to citizens of other S.E.Asian nations ie; Vietnam where the local go out of their way to try and speak English simply because they understand the importance of the language in the big picture. The bottom line for me is what, exactly, would a Thai woman, even an educated type, bring to the table to improve my life on the planet. After 20 years of living in the country I can state, quite confidently, that it's not very much. It's not like you can give them 2 million baht and expect them to double it for you through shrewd investments or business acumen. Sorry to say but even your middle class, educated types are myopic; with eating, shopping, iphone, thai TV and idle gossip filling the majority of their waking hours. No doubt the defenders of the realm, and the apologists, will get stuck into me but I don't give a shit; I've seen, and heard, it all before. The mirage that you talk about is but one of the many mirages in this country and the most important mirage that you need to get to grips with is the one where you might think you are the most important person in your Thai woman's life. You keep your mirage and I'll have mine; the one where I remain single, make use of P4P mirage on Saturday nights and not have to be concerned about showing a bunch of people, who aren't really interested in me, that I'm wealthy enough to take care of their daughter.<br /><br /><br />

Exactly,hanging around with a bunch of airheads who are only interested in who has the latest tablet and smartphone,who all dress the same and look like translucent ironing boards or ladyboys is probably most Westerner's idea of Hell!

Give me friendly Isaan girls and dark skinned beauties with a personality and sense of fun anyday,even if it has to be the bar scene to meet them!

"Go to Heaven for the climate,Hell for the company" - Mark Twain.

[Eesat]

Apisit does, so does Korn. So do countless professors at Mahidol where I teach.

Countless professors at Mahidol speak fluent English? That surprises me a bit. In any case to suggest that they are representative sampling of the average Thai or anything more than a relative minority would be ridiculous. To suggest that Abhisit is even beyond that (born in England, student there from 11yo, Etonian, Oxford - if he didn't have better English skills than a great many native speakers, it would be extremely odd - and he does.)

Perhaps you were joking?

Just noticed you mentioned Korn too - just as funny. Also born in England, also educated there from boyhood at the very best schools and a classmate with Abhisit at Oxford.

A very strange example when Abhisit has the same education as David Cameron,the British Prime Minister!

[TheSpade]

What a revelation, not all Thai girls are bar girls and the stuff that goes on in the red light and tourist areas isn't representative of the whole of Thailand....surprise surprise!

Now tell me something I didn't know?