My Well Pump Is Not Pumping

[dsfbrit]

(Mods - I have posted this is the Farming Section as well - hope you don't mind as I don't have any water at the moment).

I could really do with some help.

I live in Pattaya, well 10 KM outside in fact towards Laem Chabang.

I have a Well in my garden about 60 metres deep.

There is an external switch box that drives the submersible pump. The switch box is made by Franklin and has a capacitor and a relay switch which drives the pump. It is a 3 wire switchbox/pump.

The Well water is pumped into a water tank.

The tank ran dry the other day and when I inspected everything, the capacitor was just clicking and the motor seemed not to be starting.

Having read the sorts of problems this can indicate on other websites, I have some ideas on what I should do next, but I could do with some help on some aspects of it.

I should mention that I noticed this problem at 7 pm on Saturday night. We phoned the company that installed the Well, but no reply, old number. This is no surprise as the Well was fitted 9 years ago.

We phoned the builders, who are very good in helping out with problems even 9 years after they built the house. Of course being Saturday they were shut and as tomorrow (Monday) is a Bank holiday, they open again Tuesday. They may have the the number of the company that installed the Well originally, if so I may get them to come and fix it for me. That could take some time though and at the moment we have no water!!

So as I do most of the maintenance around the house anyway, I have decided to at least try to replace the capacitor and relay in the switch box, even though, after reading the other sites I believe the pump may need replacing.

So my first question is, does anyone know where in Pattaya I can buy this sort of component???

Do I need to go to a Franklin distributor?

Secondly, if I decide to buy a pump and fit it myself, is this feasible. I am pretty good at this sort of work, I do all my own plumbing etc... to be honest cutting the plastic blue pipe and putting on some glue is not too hard, I have run hundreds of feet of piping in the garden with no problems.

However, despite reading on other websites how easy it is to replace the pump, 60 metres of plastic piping looks pretty heavy and I can see me dropping it down the well and making a complete cock-up of it.

So thanks in advance for any help and advice you can offer

[Artisi]

First up I would contact a reputable electrician experienced in motor control / switch boards to have the control / switch arrangement checked. he will check it and advise what the problem is, as for removal and re-installation of a new pump, unless you have prior experience and the necessary equipment to undertake this work - forget it, the likely costs involved it's not worth the hassle.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Artisi

[dsfbrit]

Artisi, thanks for your reply.

Sadly, I do not know a 'reputable electrician experienced in motor control / switch boards'. The electrician who did some work on the house some years ago was going to come around today, but I decided it would be pointless as the last time he came around here he could not answer a simple question outside his area of expertise.

I believe that Google can be a great help in situations like these, it has helped DIYers get together and share experiences and de-mystify tasks that yeas ago used to be impossible for the DIYer to do.

To be honest, changing the capacitor is a simple task, I took it out today to get its reference number. I just don't know where to buy one that is all. In fact most web based help sites I looked at recommended changing the capacitor first as that is cheap and simple to do.

Also some web sites suggest that fitting a new pump is not that difficult. I am good at DIY, so would like to know if that is the case in Thailand as the sites I saw were in the USA and the inner pipe was not as heavy as the blue pipe they use over here. Simply put, I wanted some feedback from someone who had done this successfully - or even unsuccessfully.

As for doing this kind of work being a waste of time, I disagree.

I actually enjoy it. I spent many yeas working in an office, but often could be found doing DIY and taking motorbike engines apart for 'fun'.

Still you may be right and if it is too much hassle and I can find someone reputable to do the work (as you know there are a lot of cowboys around!!!) then I may go that route.

Edited May 5, 2013 by dsfbrit

[Langsuan Man]

Get a water delivery service to come an fill your external tank until such time as you can get a professional in to diagnose and fix the problem correctly

It may just be the relay but by playing around with it you may do some damage to the pump itself and incur greater expense

There are times when it pays to be frugal and times when not, this appears to be one of the times when not

[dsfbrit]

Langsuan many thanks for the reply.

We have indeed arranged for 2000 litre of water to be delivered.

This topic I have posted has nothing to do with being frugal.

Tell me, who is this professional who is going to come in and repair this for me - do you have a phone number?

As I said in my original post, tomorrow (Tuesday) when the builders are open they may have the number of the company who did the Well installation 9 years ago, they may not.

They may be able to recommend someone else who is reputable, they may not.

The point is that with the internet being such a ready source of information, my first course of action nowadays is NOT to rush in and get 'experts' in to do anything. I research on the net to see what the the technical issues are and then decide if I am capable of doing the task and if I am - if it is worth all the effort.

Certainly had the internet been such a great source of info back in 2003, or at least had I been aware of Thaivisa, I would not have paid 60000 baht to have a rubbish security system installed, whose component parts cost no more than 12000 baht and a couple of wires!!!

It is called a 'con' and nowadays I am much more cautious.

You may be interested to know that the 'control box' has just two components, both of which can be easily changed and they are changed by many 'non experts' around the world with 'Franklin' systems, so may I suggest you not be so 'negative' in your attitude towards DIYers with a bit of 'adventure' in them - especially as this a forum for people interested in DIY

As for the pump itself, I have already decided to replace it anyway, it is 9 years old and a farmer in Thailand on another thread, who did this last year, says it is an easy process and I am discussing with him now just what it involves.

If I do take on the task myself, I will post here to let others know hard or difficult it really is.

Edited May 6, 2013 by dsfbrit

[impulse]

Google Franklin AIM. Their manual is a good place to start.

Their 60Hz version is here: http://www.franklin-electric.com/media/documents/M1311_60_Hz_AIM_Catalog.pdf

But keep in mind you're living in a 50 Hz country. I've never looked for their 50 Hz AIM.

Edited May 6, 2013 by impulse

[dsfbrit]

Thanks Impulse for the link.

I have read a couple of manuals but these look more detailed, so thanks for that. My Control box is on page 53 - as you can see it is a very very simple layout with just a capacitor and a relay.

It is not so much the identification of the parts that is my problem, as it would be a case of replacing 'like with like'.

My problems is that I am trying to find a stockist in Pattaya with genuine Franklin parts. In particular the pump. If I do decide to install a new pump I will remove the old one first and then match it exactly with a Franklin replacement. Same with the capacitor and relay.

Thanks again.

Edited May 6, 2013 by dsfbrit

[Artisi]

Thanks Impulse for the link.

I have read a couple of manuals but these look more detailed, so thanks for that. My Control box is on page 53 - as you can see it is a very very simple layout with just a capacitor and a relay.

It is not so much the identification of the parts that is my problem, as it would a case of replacing 'like with like'.

My problems is that I am trying to find a stockist in Pattaya with genuine Franklin parts. In particular the pump. If I do decide to install a new pump I will remove the old one first and then match it exactly with a Franklin replacement.

Thanks again.

First up, a capacitor is a capacitor as is a relay - no particular need to be Franklin.

If the pump is 9 years and has never been out of the well, it is probably time it was looked at - it may be able to be refurbished quite easily - depending on the water quality etc. If the pump has been installed with a steel cable attached it shouldn't be a major problem to retrieve it, unless of course it is "sanded" into the well casing in which case you could have a big job on your hands and best left to the "experts" ( a term used very loosely of course ) however your local well driller will / should know how best to go about the pump removal.

[dsfbrit]

Artisi, thanks for the info.

I appreciate that there are compatible replacement parts for just about anything. However, even when I replaced my Toyota windscreen I paid extra to get a genuine Toyota part form Toyota. Sure if I cannot get the genuine part then I will consider a compatible replacement, but let's face it - over here especially - the compatible part may have been made properly or it may not. Even the 'genuine' parts need quite a bit of inspection!!

So I am hoping I can find an outlet with Genuine Franklin parts in Pattaya. If not I will go further afield, there must be Franklin genuine parts outlet somewhere. I will drive around tomorrow and have a good look.

I will Google Franklin, Submersible pumps Pattaya Thailand again as well, maybe I missed something.

I think refurbishing the pump would be a false economy, it has lasted 9 years and that seems very good value and well worth being replaced.

The pump when it was fitted, lust had a 6 inch plastic casing, with a 1 inch inner plastic pipe.

I went and had a look at the disassembled submersible pump unit that was used by the builders up to 4 years ago when they were building the last of the houses here. There is no steel wire being used and it just has the electric cable supporting it. The pump is just located at the end of a one inch pipe inside a plastic 6 inch sleeve.

Mine on the other hand looks like it has a rope attached. I am not sure and don't want to remove the cover as I want to make sure I know what I am doing before I remove anything and lose the pump into the water reservoir.

Although the pump used by the builders seems to be floating on the water below??? When I pulled the one inch pipe up a few metres, it seemed to go up and down as if in water - it did not feel too heavy either. As this is only 200 yards from my house, I suspect my bore hole is similar.

I will wait now until tomorrow when we will try again to talk to our 'local well driller' via the builders- He may still be around even though this was 9 years ago now. As sods law would have it, the manager of the building company, who seemed to know everybody who could get stuff done has retired !!!

thanks again for the feedback

[Beardog]

We live in the Bang saray area not to far 20km from Pattaya. My neighbors have Franklin setups. both are the 1&1/2 hp pumps & both neighbors had to replace the control boxes in them One neighbor needed to do it twice in 3 years due to either poor installation (it was drawing way to much amps to work right. The 2nd one the goober wired it backwards & torched the insides. It looks like it may be a control box issue. There is a pump shop on the top of Pattaya Nua that may be able to help(they have a lot of types of pumps up to industrial.) If not they might be able to point you in the right direction. If you have a Thai girl bring her along they speak predominant Thai. One question: is your pump delivering sand at all. That would be the pump most likely. If it is a well check the foot valve at the bottom of the pipe. If it is a borehole It may need to be cleaned out. The farming forum is a cornucopia of info as the people who farm have great insight in Boreholes. Maizfarmer is King of bore hole info. They helped me immensely in 2006 on our build.

Good luck I hope it is an easy fix. The service control panel is super simple so if you can find someone to check the meager components in them it should be a cheap fix if that is the problem. If it is a bore hole that needs to be cleaned I know a borehole guy that is awesome & does the work at about 50% less than the Pattaya area. PM me if you need the details.

Barry

Edited May 6, 2013 by Beardog

[NeverSure]

As for pulling your pump if it comes to that. You mentioned a rope. I've seen that used only when the pipe was flexible. I can't tell from reading whether your pipe is flexible. If it is, it isn't that hard to pull as you just coil it as it comes out. At the very worst you can make a tripod with 3 stout 7 meter m/l bamboo poles and tie a pulley to that and run the rope through it.

I'd point you to a youtube vid on pump pulling, but you could look for that since you know what kind of setup you have.

Other posters are right. As for the box and capacitor, etc., brand isn't the issue. Electrical equivalency is.

[dsfbrit]

Beardog, thanks for the advice. I know the shop you mean - it is the one by the bus station. I thought about going there as it seems to have a lot of bits of kit like this and chainsaws etc... Tomorrow I will try the builder to see if he has the Well driller's details and decide what to do then. As suggested, I have filled my two water tanks with 1800 litres of water, so there is no urgency now and I can think about the best way to get this pump working again without any panic.

I have actually posted this in the Farming Section as well as part of a current thread and there are several people (well quite a few actually) on the farming forum who have repaired their bore hole pumps and as you say, it does not seem too difficult according to their experiences at least. Mind you their boreholes seem only to be less than 20 metres in many cases ? - mine is around 60 metres I seem to recall.

For anyone reading this thread, 1800 litres of water in the area between North Pattaya and Laem Chabang is 180 baht.. The contact details are 0806419300.

Thanks again for the feedback

[dsfbrit]

Neversure, thanks for the feedback. I have seen the video(s) on YouTube where they assemble the 60 metre pipe and pump outside the borehole and then 'walk it' down the hole. It was that video that made me think I could do the same thing with the 1 inch pipe used on my borehole.

However, even the guys on the farming forum who have repaired their own pumps seem to talk about undoing the sections of pipe as they come out, rather than pulling it out/putting it back fully assembled.

I am hoping over the next few days I will better understand just how to pull the pipe out if I have to.

I understand and agree that brand is not a 'technical' issue with relation to the electrical components, however I would always buy a known brand of anything out here in Thailand - if I were buying tyres I would pay 14000 baht for 4 Michelin or Bridgestones - I would not pay 5000 baht for some local product.

If I bought a new chainsaw it would be a Stihl, not some local cheap alternative.

I would also buy the product from a reputable supplier, not some local market stall or shop.

It costs more for sure, but it will almost certainly NOT be a KNOCKOFF

So I don't think there is anyone who would disagree that Franklin genuine products are one of the best in their field and if you stick with them you should not have any problems.

Mind you, my theory did rather break down a few years ago when I bought a new Sony battery for my laptop PC !

Thanks again.

Edited May 6, 2013 by dsfbrit

[Canada]

There are lots of nice looking Stihl knockofffs out there. Be warned. I have one myself. My own fault.

[Canada]

Beardog, thanks for the advice. I know the shop you mean - it is the one by the bus station. I thought about going there as it seems to have a lot of bits of kit like this and chainsaws etc... Tomorrow I will try the builder to see if he has the Well driller's details and decide what to do then. As suggested, I have filled my two water tanks with 1800 litres of water, so there is no urgency now and I can think about the best way to get this pump working again without any panic.

I have actually posted this in the Farming Section as well as part of a current thread and there are several people (well quite a few actually) on the farming forum who have repaired their bore hole pumps and as you say, it does not seem too difficult according to their experiences at least. Mind you their boreholes seem only to be less than 20 metres in many cases ? - mine is around 60 metres I seem to recall.

For anyone reading this thread, 1800 litres of water in the area between North Pattaya and Laem Chabang is 180 baht.. The contact details are 0806419300.

Thanks again for the feedback

If you are running a one inch pipe, you may be able to assemble it above ground and lower it in one piece. It is pretty flexible. I am running 2" pipe it is not flexible. Also, just because you have a 60 metre hole does not mean you have 60 metres of pipe down .

[luudee]

Sounds like you have a very similar setup to me, except my well is only 40m deep.

I always keep a spare Control box around, because they do blow.

That gives me a quick way to determine if it is an electrical problem or pump/plumbing

problem.

If it is the control box, I replace them and than try to fix the broken one.

Pulling out the pump from 40M is not easy. We have done it a few times,

it takes about 4-6 guys to do it without breaking the PVC ... If you want

to cut it every 4 meters and re-glue it, yo could possibly do it yourself ...

60M worth of PVC with a pump attached is quite heavy, I hope you are

a strong guy ! ;-)

Good Luck,

luudee

[dsfbrit]

Canada, I think a dodgy chainsaw would be my 'dream purchase'

My wife has tracked down the company who drilled the borehole for us 9 years ago and they are coming here tomorrow, so I will get quite a few answers then. Thanks again for your help.

[dsfbrit]

luudee, thanks for your comments.

It is odd because some people say that 60 metres of 1 inch pipe is very heavy to pull out and difficult to feed back in and others say it is not too difficult and requires maybe two people. I have seen several YouTube videos with three people feeding the fully assembled pipe back down the hole, no videos of people pulling the pipe out though.

I am not suggesting for one moment that what you are saying is wrong, but I wonder if there are other factors at work, certainly the size of the pipe is a factor. Canada has suggested that as my pipe is only 1 inch in diameter, that maybe the pump is only 3 inches.

Anyway the guy who did the installation is coming around tomorrow and so I can have a talk with him about actually what is installed down there.

I like your idea about having a spare control box. I will certainly do that for the future. Is your system Franklin? Did you buy your control box complete or buy the spares separately yourself? If so where did you buy them??

The only place I have found Franklin kit being advertised to be sold is in Bangkok.

I have not yet tried the other locations recommended in Pattaya as I decided to wait and see exactly what is wrong with my set-up tomorrow. I suspect I can get this info off the guy tomorrow, if he is willing to tell me that is!!!

By the way, if anyone is interested, the number of this driller is 0819829117, he is called 'YO'. When he did this job 9 years ago he charged about 70K baht for 60 metres and was here for about 4 days. He provided Franklin parts, controller and pump.

He did a good job then and at that time seemed quite reasonably priced. Mind you the exchange rate then was around 70 baht to the pound, so that may be why I thought it was so reasonable - I will ask him how much he charges nowadays.

[Daffy D]

Don't know if downhole pumps have a non-return valve.

If it does the pipe will be full of water and thereby heavier when trying to pull it.

[dsfbrit]

As I mentioned above, my wife has tracked down the driller who installed the system 9 years ago and he is coming around here tomorrow to see what the problem is.

Once I have got his opinion about just what is broken and needs repairing, then I will decide what to do next.

All the feedback has been a great help, as I am now able to better understand the issues relating to the borehole and will know if his recommendations are sound.

Thanks again to all of you

David.

[dsfbrit]

Daffy D - sorry I missed your reply,it was posted just 2 minutes before mine so I guess we were typing at the same time.

The water would make it a lot heavier I would guess.. I reckon if I do it myself I will have to get a few football chums around to help me to pull it up.

The driller comes around today to see what the problem is. If there is a problem with the pump and the quote is reasonable, I will ask him to do the job I think. I am not sure though, as I like doing my own DIY if I can.

I have read a lot about boreholes since mine broke down on Saturday and I can see that drilling and setting up a deep borehole from scratch is quite a difficult process, mainly due to the need for a drilling rig and knowledge about water tables and how to seal a borehole etc,,,

However, making repairs such as replacing the switch box or submersible pump, is very straightforward and seems to depend on whether you have a local parts stockist and enough friends to help you pull out the pipe. In my case finding the local parts stockist may be easier than finding friends willing to get their hands dirty

Edited May 7, 2013 by dsfbrit

[luudee]

luudee, thanks for your comments.

It is odd because some people say that 60 metres of 1 inch pipe is very heavy to pull out and difficult to feed back in and others say it is not too difficult and requires maybe two people. I have seen several YouTube videos with three people feeding the fully assembled pipe back down the hole, no videos of people pulling the pipe out though.

I am not suggesting for one moment that what you are saying is wrong, but I wonder if there are other factors at work, certainly the size of the pipe is a factor. Canada has suggested that as my pipe is only 1 inch in diameter, that maybe the pump is only 3 inches.

Anyway the guy who did the installation is coming around tomorrow and so I can have a talk with him about actually what is installed down there.

I like your idea about having a spare control box. I will certainly do that for the future. Is your system Franklin? Did you buy your control box complete or buy the spares separately yourself? If so where did you buy them??

....[cut] ....

Yes, my system is Franklin as well. Id id not have trouble finding the control box. There

are several electronic stores on Theprassit in Pattaya that usually carry the boxes, or

can order them with a one day lead time, and there is also a large store on North

Pattaya road. Just bring the top cover with you when you go looking for it. Same

places I buy the box I ask for spare pars as well.

My pipe is 1.5 or 2 inch, I don't remember now. The problem we have pulling it out or

putting it back is that the PVC pipe that we use is not very flexible and breaks very

easy. So you have to keep a large arc, which requires 1-2 persons at various points

to keep it from breaking. It usually takes two (thai) guys to pull on the rope.

Certainly the pipe thickness and diameter will determine the overall weight and how

difficult it is to pull it out.

The only challenge we ever have putting it back is making sure it does not break ...

Cheers,

luudee

[Pacificperson]

For larger boreholes, the pipe is usually in 20 foot sections. An A-frame with a pulley or a crane is used to pull one section of pipe into the air. The 20 foot sections are attached with threaded connection (or sometimes slip-lock joints). The bottom of the junction is used to support the remaining pipe in the well while the lifted section of pipe is detached and laid on the ground. The pulley rope is then transferred to the next section of pipe and it is lifted. The process is repeated until the last section of pipe with the motor is lifted. Special equipment needed: an A-frame and pulley, pipe wrenches to break the junctions, a lifting jig to attach to the pipe and a rig to keep the pipe in place when the lifted section of pipe is being detached. Is it worth it to do it yourself? I guess that it depends on how much your well driller wants to do the job, but if your motor has lasted 9 years, I would not think so.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Pacificperson

[dsfbrit]

Thanks Pacificperson for the advice. I will bookmark this thread for the future as it will come in handy if I need to change the pump in the future.

The driller came here yesterday to see what was wrong. He changed the control box and that made no difference, so we went to the borehole. I should explain that the borehole is about 50 metres away from the control box which is attached to the house. He then connected another control box from the power supply near the borehole and the water flowed.

So I concluded that the cable between the house and the borehole had a problem. Curiously, he said the pump was no good - which I did not understand as the water was flowing - although I speak Thai, I was having trouble understanding what he said - it was a bit like talking to a Geordie in the UK (no offence meant to Geordies), but his dialect was really difficult to understand. So I am not 100 percent sure what he was recommending.

Anyway I bought a control box off him as a spare for 3000 baht and I will replace the temporary electric cable to the power point over the coming weeks.

He said the cost for a new control box, pump and installation would be 22k Baht. The pump is 4 inches, 1HP and the hole is 60 metres deep. I may have this work done in the future, but for now it is working so I will leave 'Well' alone.

Thanks again to all of you for your help with this.

Edited May 9, 2013 by dsfbrit

[luudee]

For larger boreholes, the pipe is usually in 20 foot sections. An A-frame with a pulley or a crane is used to pull one section of pipe into the air. The 20 foot sections are attached with threaded connection (or sometimes slip-lock joints). The bottom of the junction is used to support the remaining pipe in the well while the lifted section of pipe is detached and laid on the ground. The pulley rope is then transferred to the next section of pipe and it is lifted. The process is repeated until the last section of pipe with the motor is lifted. Special equipment needed: an A-frame and pulley, pipe wrenches to break the junctions, a lifting jig to attach to the pipe and a rig to keep the pipe in place when the lifted section of pipe is being detached. Is it worth it to do it yourself? I guess that it depends on how much your well driller wants to do the job, but if your motor has lasted 9 years, I would not think so.

Yeah, that's how I would suspect it's being done in the "civilized" world

In my case, it's standard PVC pipes, glued together to form one 40 meter

long pipe. So when I pull it out I have to be very careful ...

luudee

[Canada]

Don't know if downhole pumps have a non-return valve.

If it does the pipe will be full of water and thereby heavier when trying to pull it.

They should. On some at least, they are also removable.

[Pacificperson]

Luudee: I think that it all depends on how flexible the riser pipe is. Mine are not flexible at all.

dfsbrit: If you do it yourself, make sure that you use a safety rope. It is a real pain trying to fish a brand new motor out of a well because the pipe broke. Second, your well guy could have been talking about the impeller. An eroded impeller sometimes can still pump water, but it does not pump as much water as a new impeller. It wastes electricity.

[Daffy D]

Don't know if downhole pumps have a non-return valve.

If it does the pipe will be full of water and thereby heavier when trying to pull it.

They should. On some at least, they are also removable.

I guess they would have but you never know.

Wasn't sure whether to post such an obvious statement but water is heavy.

Last few weeks have been helping the wife's family reorganize their irrigation system. They get water from a cement ring well and dropping an empty 2in intake pipe down the well is a lot easier than pulling out one full of water.