Thais Becoming Inured To Corruption: Thailand Development Research Institute

[theajarn]

I think the title of the OP (as it appears in the email link) should have been "Thais Becoming Immune to Honesty and Common Decency"

[wilcopops]

It's their culture, it's always been a way for the untitled poor to get something done by an official.

I'm surprised that this report even got a mention.

"Corruption" is a western concept and they are trying to imitate the west in many areas of daily life, including anti-graft legislation, but not with a lot of enthusiasm.

THis is a complete load of tosh!

The above poster has obviously heard how village reps to the authorities were historically rewarded for their efforts and has then drawn a ridiculous conclusion.

Corruption is a sure-fire way of keeping the poor poor and keeping wealth in the hands of the wealthy - the more cash you have the more chance you have of getting your own way........

people use the word "culture" as if it is some kind of get-out clause - well it isn't - for a start it is almost impossible to define or delineate what is or isn't culture - only the really self-deluded would claim to know.

To suggest corruption is solely a western concept is quite simply risible.

Edited May 6, 2013 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

On a recent visit to the UK I had to do various chores relating to government departments and found that almost all of it could be done via the net.

THe phrase used is "digital by default"

Given that this is the way all governments will go in the end, I an see an end to a lot of the corruption at the counters of government offices in Thailand.

It will be pretty difficult for a clerk to ask for an "extra" 1000 baht to process your form if all you have to do is get it off the net.

[RubbaJohnny]

Graft ,daft

In accountable democrcies all is not perfect however it is better.

In Scandanavia for example a person giving or recieving grat would be disgraced

In Italy or Spain at least possibly arraigned .

Waht is so pernicious is the culture of impunity and immunity which besmirches the future reputation of those with the power to amend this.

We will know it has altered when snior brass are seen jailed and actually serve time.

The threat of a fine or paying blood money menas nothing if daddy just writes a cheque.

[kimamey]

So what should people do when approached for graft, when the visa extension depends upon procuring,"agents" to be granted, the Or Bor Tor squad descends and makes up rules? Where can foreigners call or write? Can they do so in English?

Seems the govt and people are quite happy with the status quo, it's a very eastern thing, after all and the incoming masses of EaEur's and Chinese are well versed in it.

I see very little in the way of real concern in stemming it but if

someone were serious, first steps would be to amend the libel and that other seriously deficient law, but above all, allow a free press.

If you want to live in an honest, just society, Thailand just isn't it, and it has no mechanism for change. It really is a dictatorship by committee.

As a Brit, I am helpfully informed to tell them that to pay would be an offence under British law. Lol.

Very true although since Thais seem to have a very lax attitude to their own laws I doubt they're going to be too interested in British ones. I'm not sure how likely you are to be affected by the anti bribery laws in the UK as the most obvious targets are businesses . It does apply to individuals so you might find problems if you upset someone.

[Jasminetea]

The book of revelations has been found , its at the Development research Inst, tell us something we don't already know.

Totally agree! As if there is no corruption in the European Union or the USA. Don't talk about Russia, China, India, the entire Asean excluding Singapore.

[wilcopops]

The book of revelations has been found , its at the Development research Inst, tell us something we don't already know.

Totally agree! As if there is no corruption in the European Union or the USA. Don't talk about Russia, China, India, the entire Asean excluding Singapore.

There is always someone who thinks that the facile argument of citing other instances of a similar situation somehow contributes to the discussion.

[Martstar]

My wife just went to the police station in BKK to get the required police check for a partner visa to Australia. You need a piece of paper from VFS to get it... it should be 100 baht and take 7 days... policemen at the counter, there are two processes... one is 100 baht and takes 3 weeks or more... the other costs 1,500 and takes 7 days. If you choose the 1,500 baht process, please place the money in this envelope. So he gives her an envelope and then says please put the money in it somewhere else, not here.

The biggest criminals in Thailand are politicians, government officials and police. Amazing Thailand.

[Martstar]

Oh, and I forgot to mention, the other day I went into the local poverty shop to buy a bottle of coke and a fanta. Normal price is about 22 baht all up. I gave the old lady 2 twenty baht notes... she goes away and comes back with 5 baht change. I say its 25 baht in my Thai and look at her. She knows the game is up immediately and goes off to get me the right change. The same people also ripped my wife's Aunty off on a purchase of a used car.

So those who get on here and start mouthing off about elite, Chinese Thai or whatever else they want to come up with because of the hopelessness of this country... is because of the rich vs the poor.... need to understand it is stuffed at all levels and need to have a think about what happens every day from the small village with the thieving headman to the government, the rich, the criminals etc etc. Red shirt, yellow shirt or whatever other colour is out there, it makes not one bit of difference.

[bigbamboo]

My wife just went to the police station in BKK to get the required police check for a partner visa to Australia. You need a piece of paper from VFS to get it... it should be 100 baht and take 7 days... policemen at the counter, there are two processes... one is 100 baht and takes 3 weeks or more... the other costs 1,500 and takes 7 days. If you choose the 1,500 baht process, please place the money in this envelope. So he gives her an envelope and then says please put the money in it somewhere else, not here.

The biggest criminals in Thailand are politicians, government officials and police. Amazing Thailand.

Be careful. Yingluck will sue.

[wilcopops]

I regret to say I have on several occasions paid a couple of hundred baht to some policeman, just so I can continue with my journey. Usually there has been no infringement so I'm starting from a ridiculous position. If I choose to fight it, I'm fighting a trumped up charge by a corrupt police force.......so long as this is tolerated Thailand will be seen as a second rate country in the eyes of the world.

[razer]

If you can forget "It's all about me" then realize that the social cost of corruption is high. Corruption in Thailand is systemic reaching every economic vein in this country and is sucking the life blood. Education suffers, infrastructure suffers, day to day management of public services suffer, public safety suffers, crime victims suffer. Where does it stop? The people who get an occasional benefit are happy to get something for nothing because they have nothing to begin with and will have nothing tomorrow. History is full of examples and the consequences are just damn scarey.

[EBlair48]

I think this poster is just saying the laws in their country can be used as an excuse to not pay corruption.

This has worked for me, " Oh my gosh, no, no I cannot pay, I know your office is being investigated and with my bad luck, I will get caught up in it. It is a serious offense in ( insert home country ) to participate in corruption.. Oh my... !!"

The trick to this is of course, you have to be following the law to the letter so as to nothing to be extorted over.

This goes for traffic offenses also. I'd be driving to the police station instead of paying 200 baht. YOu have to make a commitment, and be prepared for hassles

So what should people do when approached for graft, when the visa extension depends upon procuring,"agents" to be granted, the Or Bor Tor squad descends and makes up rules? Where can foreigners call or write? Can they do so in English?

Seems the govt and people are quite happy with the status quo, it's a very eastern thing, after all and the incoming masses of EaEur's and Chinese are well versed in it.

I see very little in the way of real concern in stemming it but if
someone were serious, first steps would be to amend the libel and that other seriously deficient law, but above all, allow a free press.

If you want to live in an honest, just society, Thailand just isn't it, and it has no mechanism for change. It really is a dictatorship by committee.

As a Brit, I am helpfully informed to tell them that to pay would be an offence under British law. Lol.

Very true although since Thais seem to have a very lax attitude to their own laws I doubt they're going to be too interested in British ones. I'm not sure how likely you are to be affected by the anti bribery laws in the UK as the most obvious targets are businesses . It does apply to individuals so you might find problems if you upset someone.

[wilcopops]

If you can forget "It's all about me" then realize that the social cost of corruption is high. Corruption in Thailand is systemic reaching every economic vein in this country and is sucking the life blood. Education suffers, infrastructure suffers, day to day management of public services suffer, public safety suffers, crime victims suffer. Where does it stop? The people who get an occasional benefit are happy to get something for nothing because they have nothing to begin with and will have nothing tomorrow. History is full of examples and the consequences are just damn scarey.

Well said!

Not often I see a post on TV I'm 100% in agreement with.

Edited May 8, 2013 by wilcopops

[EBlair48]

I think the poster meant to say; Corruption as a bad thing is a modern western view, and I'd agree.

Who are we to expect cultures that are based on it to change?

Except those cultures ( in this case Thailand ) keep paying lip service it's bad, too.

It's th eultimate in bait and switch marketing.

Come to Thailand, invest be happy. We are a free, safe, democratic country..."

IS A LOAD of BS !!!

(But then again, where is tha isn't freezing cold. )

It's their culture, it's always been a way for the untitled poor to get something done by an official.

I'm surprised that this report even got a mention.

"Corruption" is a western concept and they are trying to imitate the west in many areas of daily life, including anti-graft legislation, but not with a lot of enthusiasm.

It's their culture, it's always been a way for the untitled poor to get something done by an official.

I'm surprised that this report even got a mention.

"Corruption" is a western concept and they are trying to imitate the west in many areas of daily life, including anti-graft legislation, but not with a lot of enthusiasm.

THis is a complete load of tosh!

The above poster has obviously heard how village reps to the authorities were historically rewarded for their efforts and has then drawn a ridiculous conclusion.

Corruption is a sure-fire way of keeping the poor poor and keeping wealth in the hands of the wealthy - the more cash you have the more chance you have of getting your own way........

people use the word "culture" as if it is some kind of get-out clause - well it isn't - for a start it is almost impossible to define or delineate what is or isn't culture - only the really self-deluded would claim to know.

To suggest corruption is solely a western concept is quite simply risible.

[wilcopops]

I think the poster meant to say; Corruption as a bad thing is a modern western view, and I'd agree.

Who are we to expect cultures that are based on it to change?

Except those cultures ( in this case Thailand ) keep paying lip service it's bad, too.

It's th eultimate in bait and switch marketing.

Come to Thailand, invest be happy. We are a free, safe, democratic country..."

IS A LOAD of BS !!!

(But then again, where is tha isn't freezing cold. )

It's their culture, it's always been a way for the untitled poor to get something done by an official.

I'm surprised that this report even got a mention.

"Corruption" is a western concept and they are trying to imitate the west in many areas of daily life, including anti-graft legislation, but not with a lot of enthusiasm.

It's their culture, it's always been a way for the untitled poor to get something done by an official.

I'm surprised that this report even got a mention.

"Corruption" is a western concept and they are trying to imitate the west in many areas of daily life, including anti-graft legislation, but not with a lot of enthusiasm.

THis is a complete load of tosh!

The above poster has obviously heard how village reps to the authorities were historically rewarded for their efforts and has then drawn a ridiculous conclusion.

Corruption is a sure-fire way of keeping the poor poor and keeping wealth in the hands of the wealthy - the more cash you have the more chance you have of getting your own way........

people use the word "culture" as if it is some kind of get-out clause - well it isn't - for a start it is almost impossible to define or delineate what is or isn't culture - only the really self-deluded would claim to know.

To suggest corruption is solely a western concept is quite simply risible.

You need to re-think the basis for these comments - they are based on false assumptions that render your comments totally pointless and without value

[bobmac10]

So, apart from your refuting my post, you haven't actually given any factual proof that corruption is not a part of Thai culture.

therefore you will need to show how corruption is a recent phenomenom, and when you think it started.

My post stated that it IS a part of Thai culture and was an accepted way of getting something you weren't entitled to.

The Thai peasant class, living a serf like existence, had no rights as compared to the aristocracy and the wealthy, needed to get public officials to do their job, as they had little chance otherwise. A gratuity was the accepted way of getting things done.

Westerners when coming into contact with Thai officials, quickly learned how to get things done, and nothing has changed.

Or do you believe it's something that we brought to the Thais?

[Thai at Heart]

If you can forget "It's all about me" then realize that the social cost of corruption is high. Corruption in Thailand is systemic reaching every economic vein in this country and is sucking the life blood. Education suffers, infrastructure suffers, day to day management of public services suffer, public safety suffers, crime victims suffer. Where does it stop? The people who get an occasional benefit are happy to get something for nothing because they have nothing to begin with and will have nothing tomorrow. History is full of examples and the consequences are just damn scarey.

Many an empire has fallen because of it.

[thaimlord]

The book of revelations has been found , its at the Development research Inst, tell us something we don't already know.

Totally agree! As if there is no corruption in the European Union or the USA. Don't talk about Russia, China, India, the entire Asean excluding Singapore.

There is always someone who thinks that the facile argument of citing other instances of a similar situation somehow contributes to the discussion.

Why not attack the argument, rather than the people? Your posts would command a lot more respect.

[RubbaJohnny]

I regret to say I have on several occasions paid a couple of hundred baht to some policeman, just so I can continue with my journey. Usually there has been no infringement so I'm starting from a ridiculous position. If I choose to fight it, I'm fighting a trumped up charge by a corrupt police force.......so long as this is tolerated Thailand will be seen as a second rate country in the eyes of the world.

Possibly,tho second rate is pushing ita bit,I feel the term is reserved for those once great now downgraded former stars like UK USA and Greece.I would deliver my post by van but it is being repaired.

Sick Transit,Glory hole Monday

[wilcopops]

I regret to say I have on several occasions paid a couple of hundred baht to some policeman, just so I can continue with my journey. Usually there has been no infringement so I'm starting from a ridiculous position. If I choose to fight it, I'm fighting a trumped up charge by a corrupt police force.......so long as this is tolerated Thailand will be seen as a second rate country in the eyes of the world.

Possibly,tho second rate is pushing ita bit,I feel the term is reserved for those once great now downgraded former stars like UK USA and Greece.I would deliver my post by van but it is being repaired.

Sick Transit,Glory hole Monday

"I feel the term is reserved for those once great now downgraded former stars like UK USA and Greece" - I'm sorry? Where do you find the usage convention for that conclusion?

[hansnl]

This is hardly a revelation as for a long time now various opinion polls show that a majority of Thais don;t see anything wrong with corruption as long as it's not excessive and is shared around. No one that I know of has ever ventured an definition of excessive and I'm sure for those involved the word excessive doesn't exist.

Obviously there are some genuine anti-corruption advocates but i do believe that many who complain are disgruntled because they are not getting anything. The fight against graft is an uphill battle as there is no will starting at the very top, too many elite involved, too many vested interests so just make promises that cannot and will not be attempted far less kept.

And the ruling class has a very long history in the application of squeeze

[wilcopops]

"January 31, 2013 5:18 pm

As much as 2.6 per cent of Thailand's GDP - or Bt329 billion - is likely to be lost to corruption this year, according to an estimate based on a survey on 2,400 people from the public and private sectors.

The corruption situation is getting worse despite higher public awareness about the problem.

People in the private sector admitted that they needed to pay more bribes to government officials and politicians to facilitate their businesses operations and win government contracts, the survey by the University of the Thai Chamber of Commerce (UTCC) has found.

The survey was conducted on 2,400 people in the business, public and government sectors."

So basically this is a tax we ALL have to pay - Thai people and foreigners, on top of everything else.