Woman Who Ran Secret Prison In Thailand Bypassed As Top Spy

[Khun Watchaporn]

The CIA is so convinced that water-boarding is acceptable that it's done secretly in other countries!

I cannot accept the argument that, whilst taking the moral high ground as regards terrorists, it is acceptable to adopt the same tactics as them. It seems that torture has been used at Guantanamo and yet only three of the people held have been convicted. If that's correct, then many innocent people there have been tortured.

Oh, it's only terrorism when it's against America.

[unanimosity]

Stupid ass liberal politicians who know nothing about various jobs in the government screwing over people qualified to do a job because of politics.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

Winston Churchill

Chruchill got it half right. Democracy is not the problem. The problem is voters and the voting process.

[Morden]

The CIA is so convinced that water-boarding is acceptable that it's done secretly in other countries!

I cannot accept the argument that, whilst taking the moral high ground as regards terrorists, it is acceptable to adopt the same tactics as them. It seems that torture has been used at Guantanamo and yet only three of the people held have been convicted. If that's correct, then many innocent people there have been tortured.

Oh, it's only terrorism when it's against America.

Ah, I see. Not when it's by America then.

[unanimosity]

The problem is that they torture people when they have no idea if they are terrorists or not. I don't think it would be a great experience for an innocent to be taken and tortured.

I guess it is also quite ok for other countries to torture people from the US. What's good for the goose.

You poor naive soul. You actually believe in what you stated. Which suggests that you no doubt also believe that beheadings of Americans (and other infidels), the Holocaust, and the World Trade Center attacks are nonexistent fairy-tale propaganda.

[TackyToo]

god bless Waterboarding....and any other ways of extracting information from death mongering terrorists. We need more Jack Bauer's in this world.

Sounds like cook 'em peel 'em and forget 'em!

[Fantastic5]

I wonder, what makes you think they do it out of duty?

I don't know many people who do such thinks out of duty, but I know plenty who do it because it sounder exiting and gives them the right to do cruel and unusual things to people they they wouldn't ever be able to do to even a rat largely other ways and when there time is up on the job they feel like a fish out of water, some even kill them self and find it very difficult to be conform to civilisation that they strive so hard to protect.

In most cases they where are and always people that felt like they didn't belong, not heroes that wanted to do the right thing.

They are worse than the so called terrorists as they have no corse, they just enjoy it!

god bless Waterboarding....and any other ways of extracting information from death mongering terrorists. We need more Jack Bauer's in this world. http://static.thaivisa.com/forum//public/style_emoticons/default/whistling.gif

*Deleted quote edited out*

This is a very dark area.

There are things that go on in this world that we are not privy to. There are those who wish to destroy our freedom by any means necessary. There are those who have chosen to protect our freedom by any means necessary and by doing so have turned a dark corner and given up their lives for ours.

Freedom isn't free. It comes at a price, and those people who protect us pay that price when they are forced to become someone I'm sure they would prefer not to be in order to obtain information and intelligence to continue to protect our freedom.

The idealism that everyone lives by the rules is naive. For us to be free to follow the rules of society a small few have to be prepared to break moral boundaries to maintain society.

Some people have given up their human rights when they turn to terrorism, unfortunately there will be collateral cost, the protection of the masses outweighs the civil rights of the few who have either proven themselves to be sub-human or for some reason caught within a web of suspicion.

There is also a grey area in there somewhere which makes this a very tricky debate.... but when talking absolutes, I have no doubt which I would rather have protecting me between rights or people to protect us against those to wish to do harm to our society.

[HerbalEd]

Stupid ass liberal politicians who know nothing about various jobs in the government screwing over people qualified to do a job because of politics.

Liberal politicians don't have a monopoly on any of this. Conservatives are just as bad.

[Travel2003]

Waterboard me and I will admit being behind the Kennedy killing.

[richard_smith237]

Unfortunately Civil Rights will not prevent a bomb going off. The clandestine services and intelligence community might, but they become less effective as we tie their hands.

This is not a black and white / right and wrong issue. There is a dark, hidden, nasty, dirty grey area in between what is right, what is wrong and what is justifiable.

The ends must justify the means, the average person such as myself and pretty much everyone else around us cannot imagine the means, but we like enjoy our freedom and speak out harshly when this freedom is taken from us by those wishing to instil fear and terror. Unfortunately the cost of our freedom is the infringement of the rights of a few.

We live in a terrible world, made better by Civil Rights but those very same rights should not be protecting those who wish to take our freedom away from us.

[Khun Watchaporn]

The CIA is so convinced that water-boarding is acceptable that it's done secretly in other countries!

I cannot accept the argument that, whilst taking the moral high ground as regards terrorists, it is acceptable to adopt the same tactics as them. It seems that torture has been used at Guantanamo and yet only three of the people held have been convicted. If that's correct, then many innocent people there have been tortured.

Oh, it's only terrorism when it's against America.

Ah, I see. Not when it's by America then.

By America??

Sure, they get the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy to commit it.

[h5kaf]

god bless Waterboarding....and any other ways of extracting information from death mongering terrorists. We need more Jack Bauer's in this world. http://static.thaivisa.com/forum//public/style_emoticons/default/whistling.gif

*Deleted quote edited out*

This is a very dark area.

There are things that go on in this world that we are not privy to. There are those who wish to destroy our freedom by any means necessary. There are those who have chosen to protect our freedom by any means necessary and by doing so have turned a dark corner and given up their lives for ours.

Freedom isn't free. It comes at a price, and those people who protect us pay that price when they are forced to become someone I'm sure they would prefer not to be in order to obtain information and intelligence to continue to protect our freedom.

The idealism that everyone lives by the rules is naive. For us to be free to follow the rules of society a small few have to be prepared to break moral boundaries to maintain society.

Some people have given up their human rights when they turn to terrorism, unfortunately there will be collateral cost, the protection of the masses outweighs the civil rights of the few who have either proven themselves to be sub-human or for some reason caught within a web of suspicion.

There is also a grey area in there somewhere which makes this a very tricky debate.... but when talking absolutes, I have no doubt which I would rather have protecting me between rights or people to protect us against those to wish to do harm to our society.

This is the most sensible post I have seen on this Forum. Eloquently states the truth of the matter.

[BKS22]

The problem is that they torture people when they have no idea if they are terrorists or not. I don't think it would be a great experience for an innocent to be taken and tortured.

I guess it is also quite ok for other countries to torture people from the US. What's good for the goose.

OK? Really....You don't think Americans have not already been tortured? In far worse ways then waterboarding I can assure you.

[Khun Watchaporn]

^ They were forced to watch Fox?

[BKS22]

The CIA is so convinced that water-boarding is acceptable that it's done secretly in other countries!

I cannot accept the argument that, whilst taking the moral high ground as regards terrorists, it is acceptable to adopt the same tactics as them. It seems that torture has been used at Guantanamo and yet only three of the people held have been convicted. If that's correct, then many innocent people there have been tortured.

Call it collateral damage. Sorry a few innocents had to undergo something horrific in order to get to the real 3 that may have averted another 9/11!

As where you can not accept this...I do not accept that our government just randomly singles innocent individuals out for "interrogation" without really using as much detailed information about them as we can. So while they may not be directly linked to a possible incident...from an intel standpoint they had some knowledge that could potentially be useful.

[Emdog]

"The problem is that they torture people when they have no idea if they are terrorists or not."

I can just about guarantee they would be willing to join terrorists after their experiences of torture by USA and friends. I know I would, and I am an American.

Yes, the bad guys do worse things, but that hardly justifies using similar methods that don't work anyway, according to CIA's own research. May I suggest those who think torture works watch this documentary: http://www.torturingdemocracy.org/

I have the feeling that those lower down the food chain of CIA felt like they had to do something to impress the higher ups, damn the consequences. And now that USA has completely screwed these people over, they can't release them innocent or not.

[dunque]

god bless Waterboarding....and any other ways of extracting information from death mongering terrorists. We need more Jack Bauer's in this world. http://static.thaivisa.com/forum//public/style_emoticons/default/whistling.gif

*Deleted quote edited out*

This is a very dark area.

There are things that go on in this world that we are not privy to. There are those who wish to destroy our freedom by any means necessary. There are those who have chosen to protect our freedom by any means necessary and by doing so have turned a dark corner and given up their lives for ours.

Freedom isn't free. It comes at a price, and those people who protect us pay that price when they are forced to become someone I'm sure they would prefer not to be in order to obtain information and intelligence to continue to protect our freedom.

The idealism that everyone lives by the rules is naive. For us to be free to follow the rules of society a small few have to be prepared to break moral boundaries to maintain society.

Some people have given up their human rights when they turn to terrorism, unfortunately there will be collateral cost, the protection of the masses outweighs the civil rights of the few who have either proven themselves to be sub-human or for some reason caught within a web of suspicion.

There is also a grey area in there somewhere which makes this a very tricky debate.... but when talking absolutes, I have no doubt which I would rather have protecting me between rights or people to protect us against those to wish to do harm to our society.

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

[bkk_mike]

On waterboarding, America deemed it a war crime for Japanese officers that had used it during World War 2 (who were executed for it), so the fact they turned around and started using it themselves is a bit cynical of them if nothing else.

You can make laws to make it legal to use torture in the last resort. - i.e. If there's a nuclear bomb counting down and the guy with the disarm code isn't giving it out... I have no issues with torture IN THAT CIRCUMSTANCE. But once you allow for that, as with all legislation, once it exists, it tends to get misused.

- The seizing of the assets of Icelandic banks in the UK used terrorism legislation. (The Icelandic banks were fraudulent at worst, more likely just very badly run - but they weren't terrorists).

- The New York Attorney General used RICO laws against Financial institutions, which in at least one case, bankrupted a firm, where no wrongdoing was ever found (as it's difficult to carry on trading as a Financial Institution when your bank accounts are frozen, which is allowed under RICO, and this was back in the 80s/90s - not in current bash-the-bankers times).

As for the phrase...

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

- Benjamin Franklin

[Dap]

Waterboard me and I will admit being behind the Kennedy killing.

Nail on the head.

[Just1Voice]

C.I.A. = Criminally Insane A**holes.

F.B.I. = Fumbling Bumbling Idiots

[Fantastic5]

Your very deluded and gullible if you honestly believe that malarky.

god bless Waterboarding....and any other ways of extracting information from death mongering terrorists. We need more Jack Bauer's in this world. http://static.thaivisa.com/forum//public/style_emoticons/default/whistling.gif

*Deleted quote edited out*

This is a very dark area.

There are things that go on in this world that we are not privy to. There are those who wish to destroy our freedom by any means necessary. There are those who have chosen to protect our freedom by any means necessary and by doing so have turned a dark corner and given up their lives for ours.

Freedom isn't free. It comes at a price, and those people who protect us pay that price when they are forced to become someone I'm sure they would prefer not to be in order to obtain information and intelligence to continue to protect our freedom.

The idealism that everyone lives by the rules is naive. For us to be free to follow the rules of society a small few have to be prepared to break moral boundaries to maintain society.

Some people have given up their human rights when they turn to terrorism, unfortunately there will be collateral cost, the protection of the masses outweighs the civil rights of the few who have either proven themselves to be sub-human or for some reason caught within a web of suspicion.

There is also a grey area in there somewhere which makes this a very tricky debate.... but when talking absolutes, I have no doubt which I would rather have protecting me between rights or people to protect us against those to wish to do harm to our society.

This is the most sensible post I have seen on this Forum. Eloquently states the truth of the matter.

[Johpa]

god bless Waterboarding....and any other ways of extracting information from death mongering terrorists. We need more Jack Bauer's in this world.

Perhaps then you should read Ali Soufan's scorching criticism of the CIA in his book The Black Banners. One of the very few bilingual (English/Arabic) and bi-cultural agents in the US "war against terror", this professional FBI interrogator might open your eyes to the ineptitude of the CIA regarding interrogation and the little value that waterboarding provides. Anyone involved in this detention/interrogation program should indeed be put out to retirement on their more than ample public pensions. And if Soufan's book is not sufficient then read Tim wiener's book Legacy of Ashes. It is not that the CIA has had no successes, the film Argo clearly demonstrates a success. But the organization should be dismantled with the intelligence gathering programs handed over to the State, NSA, and DIA and the para-military programs run by SOC down in Florida. And having access to privy information does not mean people do anything smarter with that information than would you are I. If you doubt me then watch former CIA agent Robert Baer's inane commentary on CNN during the week following the Boston bombing when given the same information that you or I had. Having access to that privy information only seems to make many people intolerably arrogant.

[Chao Lao Beach]

But, but, but, Thailand claims there was never any such thing............

Lets see what is said here !!

[richard_smith237]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

- Benjamin Franklin

Written before 9-11... before 7-July London Bombing, before the USS Cole, Before The Boston Marathon Bombings... written before 100's of terrorist incident and 100's which have been thwarted.... Written in days of comparative or relative innocence.

Great words, unrealistic.

My liberty has not been given up. I am free to follow the rules of my society while those who wish to step outside of those rules enter the 'grey area', its is them who deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Less than 100 years after Benjamin Franklin gave the above quote the 16th President of the United States was assassinated - I suspect his words were fit for the time, naive for the future.

[richard_smith237]

god bless Waterboarding....and any other ways of extracting information from death mongering terrorists. We need more Jack Bauer's in this world.

Perhaps then you should read Ali Soufan's scorching criticism of the CIA in his book The Black Banners. One of the very few bilingual (English/Arabic) and bi-cultural agents in the US "war against terror", this professional FBI interrogator might open your eyes to the ineptitude of the CIA regarding interrogation and the little value that waterboarding provides. Anyone involved in this detention/interrogation program should indeed be put out to retirement on their more than ample public pensions. And if Soufan's book is not sufficient then read Tim wiener's book Legacy of Ashes. It is not that the CIA has had no successes, the film Argo clearly demonstrates a success. But the organization should be dismantled with the intelligence gathering programs handed over to the State, NSA, and DIA and the para-military programs run by SOC down in Florida. And having access to privy information does not mean people do anything smarter with that information than would you are I. If you doubt me then watch former CIA agent Robert Baer's inane commentary on CNN during the week following the Boston bombing when given the same information that you or I had. Having access to that privy information only seems to make many people intolerably arrogant.

A good argument against the CIA... Points well made with viable options thrown in. However, given the same power would the NSA etc not become similar to the CIA ???

Isn't it the idea that some who serve to protect us are 'above the law' that people are against ?... I believe that some have to be above the law so that our freedom and protection can be afforded to us. However, at the same time their actions need to be justifiable not to lay people such as ourselves, but to experts who understand the gain and loss involved when considering necessary means....

Thus, whichever acronym is chosen, the task at hand remains the same, the means vary but ultimately will involve crossing the boundaries of civil rights, it is a sad period in humanity that we have to recognise this as acceptable, never the less it is a necessary evil.

[disagree]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

- Benjamin Franklin

Written before 9-11... before 7-July London Bombing, before the USS Cole, Before The Boston Marathon Bombings... written before 100's of terrorist incident and 100's which have been thwarted.... Written in days of comparative or relative innocence.

Great words, unrealistic.

My liberty has not been given up. I am free to follow the rules of my society while those who wish to step outside of those rules enter the 'grey area', its is them who deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Less than 100 years after Benjamin Franklin gave the above quote the 16th President of the United States was assassinated - I suspect his words were fit for the time, naive for the future.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YOh-rpvjYg

before and after benjamin franklin's words there have been massive wars, massive terrorist attacks and massive slayings of people for some cause. no my friend, the times don't change and neither does the meaning of these words. these things are not new, they just happen in a time where you happen to live; and your blatant disregard for history is just pure astonishing ignorance. you don't put MILLIONS of people in a cage to protect them from 100, then something is wrong with your so called 'freedom'.

but supposedly you would have it fit to sit in a golden cage because somebody else decides it's safe for you in there. good luck to you

[disagree]

god bless Waterboarding....and any other ways of extracting information from death mongering terrorists. We need more Jack Bauer's in this world.

Perhaps then you should read Ali Soufan's scorching criticism of the CIA in his book The Black Banners. One of the very few bilingual (English/Arabic) and bi-cultural agents in the US "war against terror", this professional FBI interrogator might open your eyes to the ineptitude of the CIA regarding interrogation and the little value that waterboarding provides. Anyone involved in this detention/interrogation program should indeed be put out to retirement on their more than ample public pensions. And if Soufan's book is not sufficient then read Tim wiener's book Legacy of Ashes. It is not that the CIA has had no successes, the film Argo clearly demonstrates a success. But the organization should be dismantled with the intelligence gathering programs handed over to the State, NSA, and DIA and the para-military programs run by SOC down in Florida. And having access to privy information does not mean people do anything smarter with that information than would you are I. If you doubt me then watch former CIA agent Robert Baer's inane commentary on CNN during the week following the Boston bombing when given the same information that you or I had. Having access to that privy information only seems to make many people intolerably arrogant.

A good argument against the CIA... Points well made with viable options thrown in. However, given the same power would the NSA etc not become similar to the CIA ???

Isn't it the idea that some who serve to protect us are 'above the law' that people are against ?... I believe that some have to be above the law so that our freedom and protection can be afforded to us. However, at the same time their actions need to be justifiable not to lay people such as ourselves, but to experts who understand the gain and loss involved when considering necessary means....

Thus, whichever acronym is chosen, the task at hand remains the same, the means vary but ultimately will involve crossing the boundaries of civil rights, it is a sad period in humanity that we have to recognise this as acceptable, never the less it is a necessary evil.

How do you justify a lawless action? You trust in 'experts' knowing what they do. How are they experts? Experts in breaking the law? Wouldn't that make them criminals?

"No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we require him to obey it." - Theodore Roosevelt. But I suppose any previous president of your country is not up par with you, based on the immediate happenings in recent years which have to redefine how over 300 million people now have to live in fear of a few.

The few of course who laugh themselves into sleep how they terrorized a whole nation into becoming more and more of a totalitarian self-restrictive system. Everything has to be controlled, everything has to be seen, everything has to be logged and kept track of; everything has to be traced. The STASI would have loved this! And all justified to maintain freedom, ha!

How can you sacrifice your constitutional rights so easily? Something many people sacrificed their lives for. How can you throw it away so carelessly. Maybe you need a bit of perspective?

I'm wondering if you've been raised in the soviet union, we might have had the same discussion with you defending the KGB having to do what they have to do and people 'above the law' being necessary there as well to protect the freedom of the workers! I mean they're experts in what they are doing, so they know what they're doing, aren't they?

In your ignorant state of trust you ignore the corruption of power, and pure human nature. But it's futile speaking about it. Humanity has and will repeat mistakes all over. History seems to be a futile teacher on some. So we are to remain sheep forever, aren't we.

Edited May 10, 2013 by disagree

[leeroy221]

C.I.A sucks http://static.thaivisa.com/forum//public/style_emoticons/

default/bah.gif

No, they blow and squirt

[blueshark]

From the makers of blow back, the poisoning of children’s milk in South America
and the destabilization of the middle east for eternity the CIA have done a cracker
jack job of <deleted> all.

A bunch of num nuts with too much money and just as much lack for humanity.

Oh i can wait to see the end game of this super bitch.

<deleted>.

[tetleythedog]

god bless Waterboarding....and any other ways of extracting information from death mongering terrorists. We need more Jack Bauer's in this world.

I hear that waterboarding is in the next Olympics...........guaranteed gold for the USA !

[lomatopo]

Honestly, I don't understand why people get their panties in a bunch over the U.S.A.'s use of torture, and specifically, water-boarding? It's not like it's anything new, other than the euphemism. Back in 1901 when the U.S. military tortured Filipino insurgents it was called "the water cure". But in the end, the Philippine Commission, headed by the illustrious William Howard Taft, determined that these insurgents invited torture, so all's well that ends not so well.

Our's is a country which stands on strong moral principles, until it is convenient to do otherwise.

ANNALS OF AMERICAN HISTORY

THE WATER CURE

Debating torture and counterinsurgency—a century ago.

BY PAUL KRAMER

FEBRUARY 25, 2008

Many Americans were puzzled by the news, in 1902, that United States soldiers were torturing Filipinos with water. The United States, throughout its emergence as a world power, had spoken the language of liberation, rescue, and freedom. This was the language that, when coupled with expanding military and commercial ambitions, had helped launch two very different wars. The first had been in 1898, against Spain, whose remaining empire was crumbling in the face of popular revolts in two of its colonies, Cuba and the Philippines. The brief campaign was pitched to the American public in terms of freedom and national honor (the U.S.S. Maine had blown up mysteriously in Havana Harbor), rather than of sugar and naval bases, and resulted in a formally independent Cuba.

The Americans were not done liberating. Rising trade in East Asia suggested to imperialists that the Philippines, Spain’s largest colony, might serve as an effective “stepping stone” to China’s markets. U.S. naval plans included provisions for an attack on the Spanish Navy in the event of war, and led to a decisive victory against the Spanish fleet at Manila Bay in May, 1898. Shortly afterward, Commodore George Dewey returned the exiled Filipino revolutionary Emilio Aguinaldo to the islands. Aguinaldo defeated Spanish forces on land, declared the Philippines independent in June, and organized a government led by the Philippine élite.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/02/25/080225fa_fact_kramer