Gang Raping

[longway]

... but take comfort in knowing that Thailand is not a lawless place where evil things happen to good people, that's everywhere.

I agree that bad things happen to good people everywhere, but I disagree that Thailand is not a lawless place. I also know for a fact that the view and attitudes towards rape and gang rape in particular, are much different in SEA, by law, occurrence, frequency, and attitudes.

And I have lived here for more than 3 years, and specifically researched gender violence and law in the region. Do you know that gang rape has become a sport among young, college-educated Cambodian men who openly admit to engaging in it? It has taken on a name, like a sport: bauk.

There is so much that we either do not know, or will take a lifetime to know, because of the culture of shame and silence that women are reared to uphold here.

u have a point kat, rape in asia is considered very shameful for the girls involved in particular, however this does not mean that it is acceptable here, just that it is easier to get away with the crime, especially if the girl is perceived to be of 'loose morals'.

what happened to the girls is awful. i dont think you will find anyone in asia who will condone this as 'boys being boys.'

thailand is not a lawless place, if u take the principle people do what they can get away with, then you have the context within which to base your perceptions of asia.

[kat]

Okay, so you are saying that Thailand is a lawless place where women are raped for sport and you have lived there for three years, but you feel safe there as well? Think about what you are saying. Yes, rape is a problem in Asia. It's a problem everywhere. Just because some sick people come up with a name for it doesn't change the nature of it. When a white guy rapes, it's sport as well is it not?

I think I know you're point Kat, but you fail to grasp mine. If I have misunderstood you please forgive me. People want to look down on Thailand and it's people because of this. I am showing that this behavior isn't special to S.E.A.

I thoroughly grasp your point. You are saying that gang rape is not "special" to SEA, and I am saying that it is far more prevelant because of certain cultural and societal attitudes towards gender and responsibility. Please do not ask me to think about what I'm saying, when I have thought about it far more than you. And stick to the points - I never said anything about my feelings of my own personal safety. This has nothing to do with me.

My opinion, Rape is Rape and it is no more or less prevelant in members of different races or cultures as it is pepole of similar socio-economic stature. ....

... One good thing about Thailand atleast they are trying to raise awareness of this vile crime. Anyone rember a movie a couple years back called "Prompreran"??? about this kinda retarted chick the whole town gang raped then choked to death, then left on the train tracks to be cut in half.

They got beef from the community because it was in the 70's and they wanted to keep it covered up and forggoten about. They even had to change the name of it or something because the community was so adament in covering it up.

Yes, in your opinion, but to adequately compare and understand what is going on in a systematic process, we need to go beyond opinion. My findings have nothing to do with personal opinion. I also make a distinction between race and culture. As a matter of fact, there are cultures where rape is far more prevelant and lawless. This has more to do with the tendency in traditional male-dominated cultures to abide by beliefs that place more responsibility on women rather than on laws that protect the rights of women. Of course, laws are an outgrowth of culture, so the two are intertwined.

u have a point kat, rape in asia is considered very shameful for the girls involved in particular, however this does not mean that it is acceptable here, just that it is easier to get away with the crime, especially if the girl is perceived to be of 'loose morals'.

what happened to the girls is awful. i dont think you will find anyone in asia who will condone this as 'boys being boys.'

thailand is not a lawless place, if u take the principle people do what they can get away with, then you have the context within which to base your perceptions of asia.

I think the difference is that under certain conditons rape is tolerated here if the female is viewed as committing a transgression such as making herself vulnerable to a group - staying out too late, drinking with men she doesn't know, etc. It is tolerated in the sense that she looks bad for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. She is blamed for not obeying the unwritten rules. Most of the accountability and longterm damage rests with the woman, in that her entire future can be affected. In the worst cases that do not include homicide, most men pay a compensation fee and that's it.

And what I meant by lawless, is that Thailand is not predominately governed by the Rule of Law.

Edited March 30, 2006 by kat

[thaibebop]

Okay, so you are saying that Thailand is a lawless place where women are raped for sport and you have lived there for three years, but you feel safe there as well? Think about what you are saying. Yes, rape is a problem in Asia. It's a problem everywhere. Just because some sick people come up with a name for it doesn't change the nature of it. When a white guy rapes, it's sport as well is it not?

I think I know you're point Kat, but you fail to grasp mine. If I have misunderstood you please forgive me. People want to look down on Thailand and it's people because of this. I am showing that this behavior isn't special to S.E.A.

I thoroughly grasp your point. You are saying that gang rape is not "special" to SEA, and I am saying that it is far more prevelant because of certain cultural and societal attitudes towards gender and responsibility. Please do not ask me to think about what I'm saying, when I have thought about it far more than you. Always such a snide little one aren't you. What are you trying to prove with this "I am smarter than everyone" atitude? I said think about what you are saying because you said you disagreed that Thai was "not a lawless place". You went on to say that gang rape is what, supported by the society? I think you are going too far. I don't say this becuase I have some super education or I am an education minority who can "understand". I this is because of the language you use. I say this because you are over-generalizing. I am sure that there is a major problem with rape in Thailand as well as in Asia as a whole. I have seen much to support this. But to say Thailand is lawless and Thai society supports gang rape is over-generalizing. I would have thought someone as educated as you say you are would make that distinction instead of suggesting what you did. Regardless of what you may have learned or not learned manners certainly wasn't a subject. And stick to the points - I never said anything about my feelings of my own personal safety. This has nothing to do with me. You are a women living in Thailand. A place you claim is lawless and supports gand rape. Explain how this doesn't have to you?

My opinion, Rape is Rape and it is no more or less prevelant in members of different races or cultures as it is pepole of similar socio-economic stature. ....

... One good thing about Thailand atleast they are trying to raise awareness of this vile crime. Anyone rember a movie a couple years back called "Prompreran"??? about this kinda retarted chick the whole town gang raped then choked to death, then left on the train tracks to be cut in half.

They got beef from the community because it was in the 70's and they wanted to keep it covered up and forggoten about. They even had to change the name of it or something because the community was so adament in covering it up.

Yes, in your opinion, but to adequately compare and understand what is going on in a systematic process, we need to go beyond opinion. My findings have nothing to do with personal opinion. I also make a distinction between race and culture. As a matter of fact, there are cultures where rape is far more prevelant and lawless. This has more to do with the tendency in traditional male-dominated cultures to abide by beliefs that place more responsibility on women rather than on laws that protect the rights of women. Of course, laws are an outgrowth of culture, so the two are intertwined.

u have a point kat, rape in asia is considered very shameful for the girls involved in particular, however this does not mean that it is acceptable here, just that it is easier to get away with the crime, especially if the girl is perceived to be of 'loose morals'.

what happened to the girls is awful. i dont think you will find anyone in asia who will condone this as 'boys being boys.'

thailand is not a lawless place, if u take the principle people do what they can get away with, then you have the context within which to base your perceptions of asia.

I think the difference is that under certain conditons rape is tolerated here if the female is viewed as committing a transgression such as making herself vulnerable to a group - staying out too late, drinking with men she doesn't know, etc. It is tolerated in the sense that she looks bad for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. She is blamed for not obeying the unwritten rules. Most of the accountability and longterm damage rests with the woman, in that her entire future can be affected. In the worst cases that do not include homicide, most men pay a compensation fee and that's it.

And what I meant by lawless, is that Thailand is not predominately governed by the Rule of Law.

[kat]

I am neither snide nor a snob, I just know what I am talking about because I have done the work. I have nothing to prove to anyone here, and couldn't care less, which is why I am unafraid to call things as I see it. You have never stepped foot in the country, and yet you feel free to apply your own home-grown politically-correct assumptions to an entirely different culture and country. THAT, is a generalization.

The problem with politically-correct dogma is that it is high on making the PC person feel morally superior, but very low on actual facts, causes, or specific solutions. Little wonder, as you need to understand things as they are - whether they support your PC aspirations or not - to actually address an issue. You have misquoted and misrepresented what I have been saying, and you have a habit of responding to issues in this manner with very little understanding of the issue at hand.

I wrote a response to you before this but it was lost. I am quite tired of responding to you in general and will not do so again.

[britmaveric]

Want info on gang rape - google Cambodia, basically considered sport or even worse right of passage.

Edited March 30, 2006 by britmaveric

[kat]

I was going to suggest that Brit, and even better if they were able to widen their search for comparative reasons. But google should really only serves as a beginning, and tends to reflect the limitations of the googler.

[thaibebop]

I am neither snide nor a snob, I just know what I am talking about because I have done the work. I have nothing to prove to anyone here, and couldn't care less, which is why I am unafraid to call things as I see it. You have never stepped foot in the country, and yet you feel free to apply your own home-grown politically-correct assumptions to an entirely different culture and country. THAT, is a generalization.

This isn't politics Kat. I was speaking about the langauge you are using. That means all I have to do is understand the English language. I am not discussing PC language practices either. I am calling on you to be accurate, something that researchers, which you have claimed to be the past should always practice, for the reliability of the data recorded. This isn't about calling it as you see it. Again, something researchers should avoid. It's about your manners or lack there of. I said nothing to deserve the snide comments you replied with. Why do you need to lash out at anyone and anything that disagrees with you, and I wasn't even disagreeing with you. I don't care what kind of education you have, I don't care what you think you know, I don't care where you live, none of these things demands that your posts should be taken as the word of God and that they and you should be automatically respected. Are you truly incapable of responding with any degree of respect at all? Do you believe people should respect you even so? If you are truly an educated person as you claim, why are you so threated by other peoples questions? Maybe I should have asked you to clarify your statement, perhaps that would have been clearer for you?

The problem with politically-correct dogma is that it is high on making the PC person feel morally superior, but very low on actual facts, causes, or specific solutions. Little wonder, as you need to understand things as they are - whether they support your PC aspirations or not - to actually address an issue. You have misquoted and misrepresented what I have been saying, and you have a habit of responding to issues in this manner with very little understanding of the issue at hand.

This issue at hand is gang rape. Perhaps one might extend it further to say gang rape in Bangkok or Thailand, but that's were it stops. I said because gang rape can and does happen in other locations on this planet that Thailand wasn't a special case. I did not comment on the nature or the frequency of reported or unreported cases of gang rape in Thailand, you did. I did not comment of the response of the victims of reported or unreported cases of gang rape, you did. I claimed that Thailand was not a lawless nation, you disagreed. You at the very least suggested it was a lawless nation that socially supports the violent act of gang rape. I said you were over-generalizing the Thai Nation, I did not say that gang rape, or rape of any kind was not a wide spread problem. That is the issue, Kat. If you are so concerned about being factual, than don't post something so loose lipped and then get all bent outta shape when someone questions it.

I wrote a response to you before this but it was lost. I am quite tired of responding to you in general and will not do so again.

Oh, lay off it. I haven't responded directly to you in months, for exactly this reason. Always playing Professor Kat with everyone and looking down on people.

[English Noodles]

If you want a quick lesson in reality go and read this.

http://cambodia.ahrchk.net/mainfile.php/news200304/595

see what you think.

[sramkok-pratum]

when they gonna pass the law DID IT CUT IT

[kat]

And one last thing: learn to read, you [edited (cv) ]. Social tolerance and support are not the same thing.

There - now you can comment on my manners.

[kat]

If you want a quick lesson in reality go and read this.

http://cambodia.ahrchk.net/mainfile.php/news200304/595

see what you think.

Even better Noodles - expand that search beyond Cambodia. Who are habitually perpetrating, and covering up, gang rapes in the world?

[britmaveric]

And one last thing: learn to read, you fcking moron. Social tolerance and support are not the same thing.

There - now you can comment on my manners.

Kat - have I told you lately how much I love you???

[kat]

You know what I mean, Brit?

Hey, when are you back so we can go out for a drink?

[britmaveric]

You know what I mean, Brit?

Hey, when are you back so we can go out for a drink?

july

[cdnvic]

Can all involved not resort to personal attacks and ruining an informative thread in the process?

Thanks

cv

[thaibebop]

I wrote a response to you before this but it was lost. I am quite tired of responding to you in general and will not do so again.

And one last thing: learn to read, you [edited (cv) ]. Social tolerance and support are not the same thing.

There - now you can comment on my manners.

Lair.

So what, you found a mistake in my typing? Good for you. BTW, great defense there.

[longway]

If you want a quick lesson in reality go and read this.

http://cambodia.ahrchk.net/mainfile.php/news200304/595

see what you think.

Even better Noodles - expand that search beyond Cambodia. Who are habitually perpetrating, and covering up, gang rapes in the world?

pray tell who?

i am genuinely interested, i tend to agree with alot of what u say but disagree with ur conclusions.

to understand what i am trying to say, i used to live in a neighborhood where violence was common place and when it occured there were often no recriminations, for a large variety of complex reasons. at no time was it ever accepted (except by a small minority), and it was tolerated because there was no choice. i believe rape in thailand is similar.

rape and violence are the dark side of humanity, sometimes it is easier to blame the victim than face up to our own faults. i think the social stigma in western counrtries and the way with which it is dealt has only come into place relatively recently.

with all due respect cambodia is not asia and need more to go on.

[thaibebop]

If you want a quick lesson in reality go and read this.

http://cambodia.ahrchk.net/mainfile.php/news200304/595

see what you think.

Even better Noodles - expand that search beyond Cambodia. Who are habitually perpetrating, and covering up, gang rapes in the world?

pray tell who?

i am genuinely interested, i tend to agree with alot of what u say but disagree with ur conclusions.

to understand what i am trying to say, i used to live in a neighborhood where violence was common place and when it occured there were often no recriminations, for a large variety of complex reasons. at no time was it ever accepted (except by a small minority), and it was tolerated because there was no choice. i believe rape in thailand is similar.

rape and violence are the dark side of humanity, sometimes it is easier to blame the victim than face up to our own faults. i think the social stigma in western counrtries and the way with which it is dealt has only come into place relatively recently.

with all due respect cambodia is not asia and need more to go on.

Cambodia is right next door to Thailand, in South East Asia. What the h3ll is it then if not Asia?

[britmaveric]

Wild Wild West would be what he means I suspect.

[English Noodles]

Wild Wild West would be what he means I suspect.

I think you meant East Brit

Edited March 31, 2006 by English Noodles

[britmaveric]

Wild Wild West would be what he means I suspect.

I think you meant East Brit

Yank terminology

[thaibebop]

Wild Wild West would be what he means I suspect.

Sorry Brit, I am not following you. Is he saying that because of the problems that the country is having it is separate from other S.E.A. nations?

[longway]

Wild Wild West would be what he means I suspect.

Sorry Brit, I am not following you. Is he saying that because of the problems that the country is having it is separate from other S.E.A. nations?

i mean its in asia but is is not asia. the cambodian thing is sad but it would look more like the break down of normal culture rather than gang rape being part of asian culture. and yes its history would have something to do with the current situation imho.

she made 2 statements as far i can tell she said thailand is lawless. its not lawless, law enforcement here is a lottery, yes, but a lawless society is where there is mob rule and something like anarchy eg somalia, democratic republic of congo etc. thailand is far from being that kind of state.

she has something in her second point, but it would be nice to understand where she gets her ideas. her generlisation is something akin to saying women are emotional, defitely has truth in it but does not really do women justice. i think its a complex issue.

i am not sure if she is wrong, but need more info please.

[thaibebop]

Wild Wild West would be what he means I suspect.

Sorry Brit, I am not following you. Is he saying that because of the problems that the country is having it is separate from other S.E.A. nations?

Ah, I am with you now and agree.

i mean its in asia but is is not asia. the cambodian thing is sad but it would look more like the break down of normal culture rather than gang rape being part of asian culture. and yes its history would have something to do with the current situation imho.

she made 2 statements as far i can tell she said thailand is lawless. its not lawless, law enforcement here is a lottery, yes, but a lawless society is where there is mob rule and something like anarchy eg somalia, democratic republic of congo etc. thailand is far from being that kind of state.

she has something in her second point, but it would be nice to understand where she gets her ideas. her generlisation is something akin to saying women are emotional, defitely has truth in it but does not really do women justice. i think its a complex issue.

i am not sure if she is wrong, but need more info please.

I agree she has a point but I believe she is posting more from an emotional stand point than anything else or rather just her perception of the issue, opinion in other words.

[kat]

I agree she has a point but I believe she is posting more from an emotional stand point than anything else or rather just her perception of the issue, opinion in other words.

Another incredibly laughable statement. Your posts are the epitome of emotional reactionary opinion because they are high on personal indignance and short on everything else.

*edit: in short - you are a muppet.

Edited April 1, 2006 by kat

[kat]

If you want a quick lesson in reality go and read this.

http://cambodia.ahrchk.net/mainfile.php/news200304/595

see what you think.

Even better Noodles - expand that search beyond Cambodia. Who are habitually perpetrating, and covering up, gang rapes in the world?

pray tell who?

i am genuinely interested, i tend to agree with alot of what u say but disagree with ur conclusions.

to understand what i am trying to say, i used to live in a neighborhood where violence was common place and when it occured there were often no recriminations, for a large variety of complex reasons. at no time was it ever accepted (except by a small minority), and it was tolerated because there was no choice. i believe rape in thailand is similar.

rape and violence are the dark side of humanity, sometimes it is easier to blame the victim than face up to our own faults. i think the social stigma in western counrtries and the way with which it is dealt has only come into place relatively recently.

with all due respect cambodia is not asia and need more to go on.

And what would you call my conclusions? I don't think I've stated them here in terms of the larger or broader question of comparison.

I also lived in a neighborhodd where violence was a common occurrence. However, the incidence and potential for gang rape was not the same as in Asia. There were other risks, such as being murdered by a psychopath or serial killer, but on t his thread I am talking about "normalizing" tendencies toward gang rape, which are more widespread.

I definitely want to contine this dialogue with you on this thread, but I am short on time right now. I will be back tomorrow to discuss. And I agree with your point about social breakdown and past violence in the case of Cambodia. I believe the same about South Africa. However, I do not believe that is the only explanation.

So, why don't you tell me - where was this violent neighborhood of yours?

Wild Wild West would be what he means I suspect.

Sorry Brit, I am not following you. Is he saying that because of the problems that the country is having it is separate from other S.E.A. nations?

i mean its in asia but is is not asia. the cambodian thing is sad but it would look more like the break down of normal culture rather than gang rape being part of asian culture. and yes its history would have something to do with the current situation imho.

she made 2 statements as far i can tell she said thailand is lawless. its not lawless, law enforcement here is a lottery, yes, but a lawless society is where there is mob rule and something like anarchy eg somalia, democratic republic of congo etc. thailand is far from being that kind of state.

she has something in her second point, but it would be nice to understand where she gets her ideas. her generlisation is something akin to saying women are emotional, defitely has truth in it but does not really do women justice. i think its a complex issue.

i am not sure if she is wrong, but need more info please.

I think the issue here may be a matter of semantics. But then again, it is also a matter of content and disagreeing; it's both.

I said Thailand was lawless, but I clarified it later by saying that there is no rule of law here. There is not rule of law in Thailand - please don't shoot the messenger. Thailand is a Patron/Client state, where law and custom is dictated by nepotism and who you know. This is widely known, and widely substantiated by published Thai and international research. It is common knowledge to the extent that one can come across this information on a regular basis just by reading the editorials and Thai opinion columinsts of English newspapers. If this comment seems to be so unusual or unreconizable to you regarding Thailand, then you really need to do a lot more reading and learning about Thailand before you can have a serious critical discussion about these comments. But, I'll be more than happy to tell you where I get my ideas, and furthermore, where you can do further reading if need be.

And in terms of mob rule - there are such things as degree and severity. Thailand is not Somalia, but do not think for a moment that mob mentality is very far off here.

Do you live in Thailand?

edit - typo

Edited April 1, 2006 by kat

[meom]

And in terms of mob rule - there are such things as degree and severity. Thailand is not Somalia, but do not think for a moment that mob mentality is very far off here.

Even in everyday life anybody can see that Thais are much more group orientated than your average falang. Thais always seem to do things together and in many ways that is a positive thing but the same behaviour you see on the negative side where they get violent in a group against one or as in this thread where they rape in a group.

[kat]

Meom, you just distilled one of my major points in the simplest of ways. Thanks.

[longway]

Meom, you just distilled one of my major points in the simplest of ways. Thanks.

ok i get what u are talking about now.

i used to live in brighton and was involved in some stuff i shouldnt have been, but thats all in the past now.

one of the things i noticed early on when i came to thailand was what i presume to be a plain clothes policeman, in a tight white t shirt, dripping with gold with a pair of raybans with a gun strapped to his waist looking cool in a miami vice kind of way. one of the thoughts that struck me was that this guy, if he so chose, could <deleted> me over and there would nothing i can do about it. i know exactly where i am in thailand.

i am asian myself and come from india, there is a simlar 'flexible' attitude to the law, who u know is evry important just like here. i guess its a matter of perspective, i dont see a lawless society i see a society in which people are striclty governed by roles and duties within relationships. i think thais have a similar socliety with their own cultural twist. for me this is not lawless, just a different expression of codes of conduct. very few thais can do anything they like here. yes there are thise who can act with impunity, bvut they will be curbed eventually, perhaps by being killed if they get too big for their boots.

the mob mentality exists in many places outside asia as well, its nothing unique to thailand either. just because people break the law or take into their own hands at times does not mean the law does not exist. the guys who killed the vandal who destryed the erawan shrine were arrested and will be duly processed by the law. the guys who raped this girl have also been arrested, to get out of this they need serious connections or money.

this flexible attitude is common knowledge, its not like its a surprise to me, or anyone who spends a bit of time in thailand. just understand that farangs for the most part can go drinking and whoring in an environment which relatively safe, this does not sound like lawless environemt to me. try doing same in nigeria, it wont be long before u get into some sh1t.

as for the group relationship point i was sort of with u here, but needed to hear someone say it explicitly. one thing u should understand gang rape may occur here more often, but it is not tolerated by the culture, its very taboo. perhaps so taboo it get brushed under carpet, where really it should be discussed more openly. i kind of agree with u, but have my reservations, u make it sound too cut and dried, there are plenty of principled people here as well.

thanks for that, it was interesting and made me think again about some stuff. unfortunately i have to go to work tomorrow, as i work on a ship where the internet connection is iffy it might be awhile before i respond any further, if i do at all.

[kat]

Meom, you just distilled one of my major points in the simplest of ways. Thanks.

1.

i am asian myself and come from india, there is a simlar 'flexible' attitude to the law, who u know is evry important just like here. i guess its a matter of perspective, i dont see a lawless society i see a society in which people are striclty governed by roles and duties within relationships. i think thais have a similar socliety with their own cultural twist. for me this is not lawless, just a different expression of codes of conduct. very few thais can do anything they like here. yes there are thise who can act with impunity, bvut they will be curbed eventually, perhaps by being killed if they get too big for their boots.

2.

the mob mentality exists in many places outside asia as well, its nothing unique to thailand either. just because people break the law or take into their own hands at times does not mean the law does not exist. the guys who killed the vandal who destryed the erawan shrine were arrested and will be duly processed by the law. the guys who raped this girl have also been arrested, to get out of this they need serious connections or money.

this flexible attitude is common knowledge, its not like its a surprise to me, or anyone who spends a bit of time in thailand. just understand that farangs for the most part can go drinking and whoring in an environment which relatively safe, this does not sound like lawless environemt to me. try doing same in nigeria, it wont be long before u get into some sh1t.

as for the group relationship point i was sort of with u here, but needed to hear someone say it explicitly. one thing u should understand gang rape may occur here more often, but it is not tolerated by the culture, its very taboo. perhaps so taboo it get brushed under carpet, where really it should be discussed more openly. i kind of agree with u,

3.

but have my reservations, u make it sound too cut and dried, there are plenty of principled people here as well.

thanks for that, it was interesting and made me think again about some stuff. unfortunately i have to go to work tomorrow, as i work on a ship where the internet connection is iffy it might be awhile before i respond any further, if i do at all.

Thanks for your response. I'm going to add some things very quickly, since you won't be able to participate after tonight. I am rushed though, so I apologize in advance if my post is not as clear.

1. I think this is a fair and intelligent way of describing the differences, rather than denying difference. I also have to acknowledge my Western bias in how I choose to view those differences. However, while I think "flexible" is apt, it also has its corrupting elements. All societies have their corrupting elements, but I think the flexible-relationship based societies are more prone - or rather - beset by entrenched corruption. And yes, I believe there are laws, but the laws on paper are less important and more flexbile than the laws of people and relationships. This is why it is not governed by the Rule of Law, but rather the rule of people and relationships.

The whoring and drinking is a whole other category apart from the Rule of Law. Remember, the rule of people and relationships are unevenly and inconsistenly applied. Whoring and drinking are an industry in this country, and that is a bit different. For example, did you know that prostitution is technically illegal here?

2.gang rape as taboo - well, I guess it depends on which side of the line between good and evil we find ourselves on. I only know that ordinary males can find themselves in a pack, and may not be viewed as the best in society, but women's lives are destroyed, because they allowed themselves to be in a position where they did not properly obey social norms. I also know that it is taboo for a woman to talk about rape and sexual abuse.

So, in this taboo, men participate in large groups, and women are silenced and shamed. Taboo for whom? And why? What are the social implications and messages of this imbalanced taboo?

3. Yeah, it's fine to have reservations. We have only begun to discuss this issue, so I can understand. I am not cut and dried about it. I am still coming to terms with all that I have read, researched, and uncovered. I am still researching and comparing. I have a lot of cognitive dissonance to deal with, and I am still formulating a hypothesis.

So, I am not cut and dried, but I am not ambivilent about what I am finding, or what I have stated. I am only still ambivilent about my hypothesis.

In terms of how I get my ideas, I read and research. On other aspects of issues regarding gender violence and commercial sex work, I have conducted interviews.

You can start research yourself, in the most preliminary of ways: start comparing gang rape articles from different countries on google and see what comes up. Then we can start to have a discussion. But, this is only the beginning.

Hope to hear from you again. Please feel free to PM me.

Cheers.

*edit - typos (excuse spelling)

Edited April 1, 2006 by kat