Monks And Money

[loong]

I'm curious as to why all you folks are getting all discombobulated about a religion that it appears most of you don't follow? If you are interested in Buddhism the Buddha's final words might interest you:

"Work out YOUR OWN salvation. Do not depend on others"

Or if you've been brought up in a Christian country:

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"

It bugs me because many donations are made by poor people who really can't afford it.

If the temple receives more money than it can use, it should at least be used for something worthwhile and not so that the monks can have the latest phone or fund family members extravagant lifestyles.

[muythai2013]

so what I'm reading so far is very clear, The Thai population is corrupt and the Monks are corrupt.

What I should be reading Is some are and some are not, Even a half wit would clearly know that you cannot point the finger at all.

[Docno]

Most Thais are well aware that there are bad apples among the sangha. Add to that, you have the short-timers who join the monkhood for a month (for example, after the death of a parent) ... you expect them to act like Buddha-models. And then you get the monks who cynically got into the business of it all and forgotten what's supposed to be about. My girlfriend was quietly outraged in Koh Samui last year when we went to the temple with the mummified monk and she sought a blessing from an old monk there. After the brief exchange was over, he put out his hand to her and specified how much money he expected her to give. She was steaming later. Monks are not supposed to accept money in the hand, especially from a woman (as I understand it ... others may correct me). This guy was clearly concerned about other things.

[My ex-wife, a hard-core Roman Catholic, was outraged at a similar thing. We were on holidays in the west of Ireland. She dragged me to Sunday Mass, so I dragged her to a pub afterwards. Inside, we saw the priest, still in his gear, enjoying a pint of Guinness. I swear she could have strangled him. Made me a little more positive toward religion, however).

[canman]

I always understood Buddism to be more of a philosophy than a religion? Not saying this is a good or a bad thing. Didn't the Lord Buddha expressly forbid people from worshipping him? At the end of the day believe what you want and if it helps you be a better person then that's a good thing.

[atlbravosfan]

So this will be great fun having this discussion with you, since you were a monk and all, you clearly know all the teachings of the Buddha; you are now an expert!

try running temples without money, of coarse money is involved.

Of coarse there are monks who are not up to scratch, however monks are on a journey and you don't reach your destination the day you walk through the temple door.

Same are there still with no religious intention, That to is not a reflection on the religion only on the character of that individual.

When I was in The Temple it would not have mattered if every monk around me or in fact every monk on earth turned completely evil, I'm on my journey not theirs and if they all falter it's not Buddhas fault.

The fact fact that many are doing wrong would indicate how far they have to go and that is the point of Buddhism, The journey and the final destination, everyone is assuming because one is a monk he has arrived.

Far from it, we would not be here living this life at all if we had arrived we would have not been reborn at all and would now be in Heaven, every monk is at a different stage, each and every one.

They are teachers of Buddhism to the lay people but the monks are still students themselves and should not be judged by people who are doing less themselves to make themselves right.

First off, let's talk about the 'point of Buddhism.' The point of Buddhism (if there actually is such a thing called 'Buddhism' is debatable, but I'll leave that for later) is to know only two things: what is skillful and what is unskillful. Skillful things should be followed, adhered to, practiced, maintained. Unskillful things should be dropped, left behind, no longer practiced.

As to the 'reflection of the individual and not of the religion' I agree. However, individuals are also reflections of their society. Do you know where Thailand got its Neo-Theravada Buddhism from? It came from Sri Lanka. The monks there at that time (about 1000 years ago) decided to reinstitute the caste system. Are monks higher than other people? Do people sit on the floor when at the temple while the monks typically sit up high? That is not Buddha's teaching, that is the teaching of the Brahmins and the caste system. It is erroneous and completely false; it is the system Buddha had to deal with in his own lifetime - why should we continue this damaging and fraudulent practice? I see people in this country praying to statues, burning incense as though it will purify them, hoping rituals will bring them merit. Do you know what Buddha had to say to Maha Kassapa before he became a bhikkhu, while he was still leading a community of fire worshippers? He said to him, 'Imagine you are sitting on this shore and you want to reach the other side... how will you get there? You could swim, you could wade if it were not deep, or you could build a boat or a bridge to get across. What if I were to tell you that you will sit here and pray that the other side will come to you, what would you think?' 'I'd think I am wasting my time.' 'Exactly.'

we had phones and laptops, part of modern society, they were use for a purpose obviously, not to just hold in your hand and look pretty.

As for giving, temples do give money and services to charity, who was cleaning up the floods.

So you had your own personal phone and personal laptop? Can you remind me exactly what items Buddha stated bhikkhus and bhikkunis were permitted to own? I'll answer for you - up to three robes and one bowl for begging. I don't see any exceptions made for 'modern conveniences' as they develop...

Congratulations on finding something positive temples do with the immense donations made in their name. How many temples use the money to beautify their own temple? To build more temples and statues? How many temples use the money to build free hospitals, free schools, community projects?

I didn't know monks got paid, I naively thought the donations were for the temple and not the personal pockets of its monks...

Based on my observations, the reactions of my girlfriend to some news involving monks, and now this forum, I learned since I arrived in Thailand that it's perfectly acceptable for a monk to
- own (a lot) of wealth
- gamble (sometimes huge amounts)
- smoke
- own and wear luxury items
- become a loan shark
- eat meat and sea food
- ?


On the other hand, using another drug than cigarettes and especially having sex is a big NO. Amazing thailand.

what luxury Items do they wear, do they have something under the robe i'm not aware of, and loan sharking is new to me.

Monks do eat meat, The fact that you state this shows you are unaware of the rules as the eating of meat is allowed.

Monks are allowed to smoke, The rules as I read them when I was a monk years ago were all drugs are prohibited that (alter your mind state).

money is given when the morning rounds are made, some give food some money, It is also given often during the day.

some things can be purchased, smokes but not much else so being that the money cannot be kept it's past on to family members.

Show me where Theravada Buddhism states you cannot eat meat or smoke please, I smoked In the temple as does my brother in law a long serving monk and Buddhist Author and almost every monk in the temple smoked.

Never saw gambling or loan sharking in my time, If so I would not doubt it but that would be a reflection on the monk not the Religion.

You misinterpret the precept and think it is speaking only about 'mind-altering drugs' and by that they mean marijuana, mushrooms, cocaine, etc. Do you realize that by smoking a cigarette you are affecting the functioning of your brain? That nicotine is rushing into your brain and altering your consciousness? If all these monks are so unaware of their consumption that they will smoke heavily (and spending money on your unhealthy habit is not something to be bragging about), what other states of mind are they consuming mindlessly? Smoking cigarettes is the second kind of Nutriment (sense-impression) and consuming in the way that is feeding your habit shows how unaware of your teacher's teaching. By smoking cigarettes, encouraging others to do so, stating there is nothing wrong with it or that it is not prohibited, you actually slander your own teacher.

Since you wanted to know where we should look to see that smoking is not condoned by Buddha and should be dropped, not encouraged, look at the Samyukta Agama, Sutra 373. In the Pali tradition, it is part of the Samyutta Nikaya.

Money may be given to the monks, but it is not meant for the monks. Again, monks should only have 4 maximum possessions, 3 of those being a robe and one a begging bowl. The whole alms tradition in Thailand has become tainted due to few awakened teachers residing in this country. The society of Thailand has embraced the idea of an elevated stature for monks and the Sangha (which is not the four-fold Sangha taught by Buddha, by the way) to the point that all males are expected to be a monk at some point in their life to make themselves look better. It has been corrupted for generations now; I'm surprised when I see teachers like Ajahn Chah arise from these conditions, until I remember the lotus arises from mud and the Dhamma can never be destroyed.

[Buckaroo]

When will people stop giving to other people that say they have invisible friends? By the way, my invisible friend could do with a beer, if you give it to me, I will pass it on to him.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Buckaroo

[chuang]

Someone above must be taking good care of him...

[belg]

and all tax free off course... rich businessmen come to bring them money in evelopes, to pray that business keeps being good, that they eventually keep the poor workers poor is just a side effect that does not effect their own personal wealth

[cup-O-coffee]

Monks...!

Don't you mean Thai men and women in general, who merely don saffron robes and shave their heads for no apparent reason other than what we are told; and that should be good enough to censor any questions about the matter?

There should be a "Book of Deeds" that catalogs the life which every "monk" goes on to lead after leaving the "priesthood". What an eye opener that would be towards the integrity of what these people choose to altruistically uphold in faith and carry throughout their lives after such a life-changing event.

I must be a beggar, because my own sense of beliefs and views are always being beggared here.

[sfbandung]

It would be much better if they were all Catholic priests molesting children or Muslis blowing people up.

Buddhism has its problems but as far as religions go it is the best of a bad bunch.

[harryfrompattaya]

Yeah it's a mystery..

God works in strange way

LeRoy wife is Minister and she make over 150,000 dollars a year so what

[harryfrompattaya]

Most religions seem to be business first to me.

One of my wifes lady friends loans out money at 3% a month. She gets the money to lend out from the head monk at her local temple.

People in the village are borrowing the same money they have donated to the temple and paying for the priviledge!

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

That type of lending against the lawOne should not let wife have friends like that or talk about it on Thai Vise It is crime

[hellodolly]

I didn't know monks got paid, I naively thought the donations were for the temple and not the personal pockets of its monks...

Based on my observations, the reactions of my girlfriend to some news involving monks, and now this forum, I learned since I arrived in Thailand that it's perfectly acceptable for a monk to

- own (a lot) of wealth

- gamble (sometimes huge amounts)

- smoke

- own and wear luxury items

- become a loan shark

- eat meat and sea food

- ?

On the other hand, using another drug than cigarettes and especially having sex is a big NO. Amazing thailand.

what luxury Items do they wear, do they have something under the robe i'm not aware of, and loan sharking is new to me.

Monks do eat meat, The fact that you state this shows you are unaware of the rules as the eating of meat is allowed.

Monks are allowed to smoke, The rules as I read them when I was a monk years ago were all drugs are prohibited that (alter your mind state).

money is given when the morning rounds are made, some give food some money, It is also given often during the day.

some things can be purchased, smokes but not much else so being that the money cannot be kept it's past on to family members.

Show me where Theravada Buddhism states you cannot eat meat or smoke please, I smoked In the temple as does my brother in law a long serving monk and Buddhist Author and almost every monk in the temple smoked.

Never saw gambling or loan sharking in my time, If so I would not doubt it but that would be a reflection on the monk not the Religion.

Well said. Also in conversations I have had with monks some of them recieve money from their family.

Has any one ever seen a Monk driving a car?

Yes as in the rest of the world there are phonies but that is not the norm.

Perhaps people might want to learn what Buddhism teaches through qualified sources rather than the fellow on the bar stool next to them.

[rubberduck]

Some nice insights

Thai Buddhist monks defrocked over sex, drugs and alcohol

The Crisis in Thai Buddhism

[rene123]

Many religious figures from just about every religion tend to do pretty well

Precisely why I've become anti religion.

[bealus]

"East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,

Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgement Seat;

But there is neither East nor West, Border; nor Breed, nor Birth,

When two strong men stand face to face, tho' they come from the ends of the earth!

Rudyard Kipling

[Emdog]

I am a Buddhist. Most of what is passed off as Buddhism, isn't. Here is a link about monks and money: http://www.yellowrobe.com/practice/general/247-money-rules-for-buddhist-monks-and-nuns-by-dhamminda-bhikkhu.html

The Buddha never said a monk couldn't have a laptop, atm card or facebook page. Wonder why... haha. This is good:

Stained by lust, anger, and blinded by ignorance
some monks and brahmins take delight in sense pleasures.
Those foolish monks and brahmins drink alcohol,
engage in sexual intercourse,
accept gold, silver, and money,
and obtain their requisites by wrong livelihood.
All of these are called corruptions by the Buddha who shines like the sun.
Those foolish monks and brahmins who are corrupted by these corruptions,
impure, and defiled, do not blaze or shine.
But instead bewildered, blinded, slaves to desire, and full of craving
they increase the size of cemeteries by taking birth again and again.′

From that link, btw

[Kitsune]

so what I'm reading so far is very clear, The Thai population is corrupt and the Monks are corrupt.

What I should be reading Is some are and some are not, Even a half wit would clearly know that you cannot point the finger at all.

Corruption is not just down to individuals, here it is a way of life.

Even Thai government admit they have a national problem with corruption (Government Campaign ad to encourage to say NO to corruption)

Treating us of "half wits" is not going to change this fact.

[rubberduck]

Is this all especially about those monks wearing brandnew, bright colors robes usually Mahanikay or the same or slightly darker color the Therevada monks ?

[sms747]

Anyone seen the tv ads for protection against stabbing with knives? One saffron robe monk sells his crap for 4000 baht another is a bargain at 499. Both show the monks attempting to cut people with 'sharp' blades but to no avail as they have the magic amulet. truly pathetic. Richard Randall exposed this nonsense in his book life as a siamese monk, this was in 1954 but it still goes on, just a circus act. Don't these people have any shame?

Edited May 27, 2013 by sms747

[Mosha]

I can't understand why at some temples. There are carports and Mercs and high end Toyota saloons parked next to a monks dwelling.

[JulesMad]

Very easy to distinguish who is REAL Buddhist and a REAL monk, if you read Buddha's word

Obviously many who call themselves Buddhist or even Buddhist monk, will NOT qualify (in the eyes of Buddha)

"The first five precepts are mandatory for every Buddhist, although the fifth
precept is often not observed, because it bans the consumption of alcohol.
Precepts no. six to ten are laid out for those in preparation for monastic
life and for devoted lay people unattached to families. The eight precepts
put together number eight and nine and omit the tenth. Lay people may observe
the eight precepts on Buddhist festival days. Ordained Theravada monks undertake
no less than 227 precepts, which are not listed here."

I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from ...

1. ...harming living beings.
2. ...taking things not freely given.
3. ...sexual misconduct.
4. ...false speech.
5. ...intoxicating drinks and drugs causing heedlessness.
6. ...taking untimely meals.
7. ...dancing, singing, music and watching grotesque mime.
8. ...use of garlands, perfumes and personal adornment.
9. ...use of high seats.
10. ...accepting gold or silver.

(adapted from The Word of the Buddha, Niyamatolika, The
Buddhist Publication Society, 1971, p xii)

[petermik]

Saw an old Monk getting a new sterio/video system fitted into his (or the wats) NEW Vigo. Also getting body trims for it also. When it came time to pay he pulled out huge wads of money from his bag. He had mega thousands in there. And to put icing on the cake he made a phone call from his Galaxy2 phone. I cant afford one of them so how can he?????. He didnt drive the Vigo as he had a driver. The Monk did all the supervising of the items fitted onto the Vigo as well.

They have god on their side

[muythai2013]

I didn't know monks got paid, I naively thought the donations were for the temple and not the personal pockets of its monks...

Based on my observations, the reactions of my girlfriend to some news involving monks, and now this forum, I learned since I arrived in Thailand that it's perfectly acceptable for a monk to

- own (a lot) of wealth

- gamble (sometimes huge amounts)

- smoke

- own and wear luxury items

- become a loan shark

- eat meat and sea food

- ?

On the other hand, using another drug than cigarettes and especially having sex is a big NO. Amazing thailand.

what luxury Items do they wear, do they have something under the robe i'm not aware of, and loan sharking is new to me.

Monks do eat meat, The fact that you state this shows you are unaware of the rules as the eating of meat is allowed.

Monks are allowed to smoke, The rules as I read them when I was a monk years ago were all drugs are prohibited that (alter your mind state).

money is given when the morning rounds are made, some give food some money, It is also given often during the day.

some things can be purchased, smokes but not much else so being that the money cannot be kept it's past on to family members.

Show me where Theravada Buddhism states you cannot eat meat or smoke please, I smoked In the temple as does my brother in law a long serving monk and Buddhist Author and almost every monk in the temple smoked.

Never saw gambling or loan sharking in my time, If so I would not doubt it but that would be a reflection on the monk not the Religion.

Well said. Also in conversations I have had with monks some of them recieve money from their family.

Has any one ever seen a Monk driving a car?

Yes as in the rest of the world there are phonies but that is not the norm.

Perhaps people might want to learn what Buddhism teaches through qualified sources rather than the fellow on the bar stool next to them.

many statements regarding Buddha, Buddha is not someone to be worshipped, He is a teacher to learn from and receive guidance from on your path, a path that is different then his but can be lead from his experience.

Buddha talked about 4 possessions, However the sangha was set up as a place of learning and cultivation, now that we are in the information age we can utilize mobile phones and laptops to communicate with those who are not able to attend the wat, did it occur to you that they are being used for teaching as a tool of the temple rather then a direct possession of the individual monk.

Buddha never carved his teachings in stone, just a guiding light who said himself, if certain aspects do not make sense to you disregard them on your personal journey.

[atlbravosfan]

Monks...!

Don't you mean Thai men and women in general, who merely don saffron robes and shave their heads for no apparent reason other than what we are told; and that should be good enough to censor any questions about the matter?

There should be a "Book of Deeds" that catalogs the life which every "monk" goes on to lead after leaving the "priesthood". What an eye opener that would be towards the integrity of what these people choose to altruistically uphold in faith and carry throughout their lives after such a life-changing event.

I must be a beggar, because my own sense of beliefs and views are always being beggared here.

You must be new here... didn't you know it is against Thai Buddhism to ordain women as equal to men in the monkhood? Didn't you know that monks can be 'excommunicated' (as if such a term existed in Buddhism) for ordaining women on equal level with men? Obviously, women are lower caliber so they are not fit for the saffron robe (it's actually orange in Thailand anyway)... they can only wear white and be subordinate!

[sms747]

Buddha never carved his teachings in stone, just a guiding light who said himself, if certain aspects do not make sense to you disregard them on your personal journey.

what would he have thought to monks asking for money, swanning around panthip, having their own cars, chasing after women, gambling, taking drugs and the selling of amulets and fortune telling. Most monks in Thailand are just a disgrace to his name.

[atlbravosfan]

many statements regarding Buddha, Buddha is not someone to be worshipped, He is a teacher to learn from and receive guidance from on your path, a path that is different then his but can be lead from his experience.

Buddha talked about 4 possessions, However the sangha was set up as a place of learning and cultivation, now that we are in the information age we can utilize mobile phones and laptops to communicate with those who are not able to attend the wat, did it occur to you that they are being used for teaching as a tool of the temple rather then a direct possession of the individual monk.

Buddha never carved his teachings in stone, just a guiding light who said himself, if certain aspects do not make sense to you disregard them on your personal journey.

I'm glad to see that you think they should be temple property... can't you see though how many monks have their own personal property? Do temples need the newest technology and ipads and iphones? Even at the cost of damage being done to all the enslaved workers around the world? I'm sure lay people could also help communicate the message as well.

As to your last statement, that is what fools do. It's not about 'what makes sense.' It is about what is skillful vs what is not skillful.

[atlbravosfan]

Buddha never carved his teachings in stone, just a guiding light who said himself, if certain aspects do not make sense to you disregard them on your personal journey.

what would he have thought to monks asking for money, swanning around panthip, having their own cars, chasing after women, gambling, taking drugs and the selling of amulets and fortune telling. Most monks in Thailand are just a disgrace to his name.

Actually, I can tell you exactly what the Buddha said about fortune-telling...

"Whereas some religious men, while living of food provided

by the faithful make their living by such low arts, such wrong

means of livelihood as palmistry, divining by signs, interpreting

dreams... bringing good or bad luck... invoking the goodness of

luck... picking the lucky site for a building, the monk Gotama

refrains from such low arts, such wrong means of livelihood."

[muythai2013]

Buddha never carved his teachings in stone, just a guiding light who said himself, if certain aspects do not make sense to you disregard them on your personal journey.

what would he have thought to monks asking for money, swanning around panthip, having their own cars, chasing after women, gambling, taking drugs and the selling of amulets and fortune telling. Most monks in Thailand are just a disgrace to his name.

obviously Karma will deal with those monks as individuals do individual wrongs.

It's quite a stetch to say most monks are a disgrace,as I said already monks are on their own journey to and each one is at a different level.

Entering the temple does not mean you reach your goal overnight, they have a lot to learn each and everyone, that is why they are there.

[muythai2013]

many statements regarding Buddha, Buddha is not someone to be worshipped, He is a teacher to learn from and receive guidance from on your path, a path that is different then his but can be lead from his experience.

Buddha talked about 4 possessions, However the sangha was set up as a place of learning and cultivation, now that we are in the information age we can utilize mobile phones and laptops to communicate with those who are not able to attend the wat, did it occur to you that they are being used for teaching as a tool of the temple rather then a direct possession of the individual monk.

Buddha never carved his teachings in stone, just a guiding light who said himself, if certain aspects do not make sense to you disregard them on your personal journey.

I'm glad to see that you think they should be temple property... can't you see though how many monks have their own personal property? Do temples need the newest technology and ipads and iphones? Even at the cost of damage being done to all the enslaved workers around the world? I'm sure lay people could also help communicate the message as well.

As to your last statement, that is what fools do. It's not about 'what makes sense.' It is about what is skillful vs what is not skillful.

your talking about slave workers now, empty most things from your home, discard your cloths and throw away your pc before you judge.

Those slave workers are not there because of want, yes they need the $1 a day to live, stop buying products and they would be worse off (without work), The governments need to be held accountable for that not the customers, stop drawing at straws now.

Edited May 27, 2013 by muythai2013