Monks And Money

[muythai2013]

My family is very closely related to the temple (can't give you the details, but just believe me we know every little detail about the financial situation of the monks and temple). I can only confirm this story. Monks in popular temples in city areas can get up to 15000B or more in donations per month (individual donations, not donations to the temple). Especially blessing cars is good business as you can do several cars a day and one car is 500B to 1000B. Going to house blessing is a bit less lucrative as you can do only one house per day and you typically get 500B (if you're not the head monk).

I love the theory around Buddhism and I think it makes much more sense than my native religion. But looking at the way religion is organised by the people (temples/monks), I feel just as disappointed about it as I feel about my native religion.

I am sure there are also good temples and monks, but where I live it all looks very much like a business.

I think people also underestimate how rich some temples are. It's not unusual for a popular city temple, with about 20 to 30 monks to have 50 million baht on bank-accounts.

You are right, I was always given money.

people must understand that to give more then you can afford is actually bad karma.

[kriswillems]

My family is very closely related to the temple (can't give you the details, but just believe me we know every little detail about the financial situation of the monks and temple). I can only confirm this story. Monks in popular temples in city areas can get up to 15000B or more in donations per month (individual donations, not donations to the temple). Especially blessing cars is good business as you can do several cars a day and one car is 500B to 1000B. Going to house blessing is a bit less lucrative as you can do only one house per day and you typically get 500B (if you're not the head monk).

I love the theory around Buddhism and I think it makes much more sense than my native religion. But looking at the way religion is organised by the people (temples/monks), I feel just as disappointed about it as I feel about my native religion.

I am sure there are also good temples and monks, but where I live it all looks very much like a business.

I think people also underestimate how rich some temples are. It's not unusual for a popular city temple, with about 20 to 30 monks to have 50 million baht on bank-accounts.

You are right, I was always given money.

people must understand that to give more then you can afford is actually bad karma.

It's a bit too easy to put the responsibility with the people.

Monks have to understand that to take more then they need is bad karma.

I am not kidding, but the best place in this city to meet a monk, is the computer mall, and not the temple. You'll find them between the iphone 5 and the galaxy tab 10.

[muythai2013]

My family is very closely related to the temple (can't give you the details, but just believe me we know every little detail about the financial situation of the monks and temple). I can only confirm this story. Monks in popular temples in city areas can get up to 15000B or more in donations per month (individual donations, not donations to the temple). Especially blessing cars is good business as you can do several cars a day and one car is 500B to 1000B. Going to house blessing is a bit less lucrative as you can do only one house per day and you typically get 500B (if you're not the head monk).

I love the theory around Buddhism and I think it makes much more sense than my native religion. But looking at the way religion is organised by the people (temples/monks), I feel just as disappointed about it as I feel about my native religion.

I am sure there are also good temples and monks, but where I live it all looks very much like a business.

I think people also underestimate how rich some temples are. It's not unusual for a popular city temple, with about 20 to 30 monks to have 50 million baht on bank-accounts.

You are right, I was always given money.

people must understand that to give more then you can afford is actually bad karma.

It's a bit too easy to put the responsibility with the people.

Monks have to understand that to take more then they need is bad karma.

I am not kidding, but the best place in this city to meet a monk, is the computer mall, and not the temple. You'll find them between the iphone 5 and the galaxy tab 10.

where did I say the responsibility is with the people, show me that please.

And yes monks who ask are wrong.

Endless posts here with people posting what I never in fact quoted, again show me where I said the people are responsible not the monks.

[poanoi]

The money comes from my gf, not a single days goes by when she isnt pissing away buddha money.

Tell him to give it back, and tell him to tell her to stop it !!!!

[HeavyDrinker]

I think you're barking up a tree you now nothing about Muay.

ALL monks in Thailand 'ask'...

Can't you understand this basic fact? Have you ever been to your local Wat and not have had to dip in the old wallet at any point?

[Buckaroo]

I think you're barking up a tree you now nothing about Muay.

ALL monks in Thailand 'ask'...

Can't you understand this basic fact? Have you ever been to your local Wat and not have had to dip in the old wallet at any point?

Or had it announced on the local tannoy system how much you gave, so every one knows that you are good

[muythai2013]

I think you're barking up a tree you now nothing about Muay.

ALL monks in Thailand 'ask'...

Can't you understand this basic fact? Have you ever been to your local Wat and not have had to dip in the old wallet at any point?

I lived at my local wat

As for the wats I attend no I have not given money the last 4 times, monks don't come over to talk to you so how would they ask.

[poanoi]

I'm all for a ban against merit making,

i think it's a gamble, a gamble of getting buddy with buddha, and as such against thai law,

not to mention against my gawd dam wallet, but without me getting divine credit.

[muythai2013]

I think you're barking up a tree you now nothing about Muay.

ALL monks in Thailand 'ask'...

Can't you understand this basic fact? Have you ever been to your local Wat and not have had to dip in the old wallet at any point?

I lived at my local wat

As for the wats I attend no I have not given money the last 4 times, monks don't come over to talk to you so how would they ask.

so it would seem not all ask as you just said

[ozyjon]

How much does a local pay to have a new house blessed ?

How much does a local pay to have a new business blessed ?

How much does a local pay to have a new marriage blessed ?

How much does a local pay to have a new car blessed ?

How much does a local pay to have a new motorbike blessed ?

But it doesn't have any effect and they know it, it's just smart monk(ey)business, and they making a whole lot of money with their 'blessings'

Is that why the GHOST business is so prominent.

[ika]

Monks...!

Don't you mean Thai men and women in general, who merely don saffron robes and shave their heads for no apparent reason other than what we are told; and that should be good enough to censor any questions about the matter?

There should be a "Book of Deeds" that catalogs the life which every "monk" goes on to lead after leaving the "priesthood". What an eye opener that would be towards the integrity of what these people choose to altruistically uphold in faith and carry throughout their lives after such a life-changing event.

I must be a beggar, because my own sense of beliefs and views are always being beggared here.

You must be new here... didn't you know it is against Thai Buddhism to ordain women as equal to men in the monkhood? Didn't you know that monks can be 'excommunicated' (as if such a term existed in Buddhism) for ordaining women on equal level with men? Obviously, women are lower caliber so they are not fit for the saffron robe (it's actually orange in Thailand anyway)... they can only wear white and be subordinate!

Did Buddha say that women are not equal to men? I read the following :

In the fifth year of his ministry, the Buddha was staying at

Vesali when he heard that his father, King Suddhodana, was ill. He decided to

visit him again at Kapilavatthu to teach him the Dharma, and made the long

journey. After hearing the Dharma, the king immediately attained arahantship

and passed away peacefully seven days later. It was in this year that the order

of nuns was founded at the request of Maha Pajapati Gotami, the aunt and foster

mother of the Buddha.

Three times she approached the Buddha and asked him to ordain her

into the Sangha, but each time the Buddha refused, giving no reason at all.

After the Buddha had stayed at Kapilavatthu a while, he journeyed back to

Vesali.

Pajapati Gotami was a determined lady, and would not be so easily

discouraged. She had a plan to get her way. She cut her hair, put on yellow

garments and, surrounded by a large number of Sakyan ladies, walked 150 miles

from Kapilavatthu to Vesali. When she arrived at Vesali, her feet were swollen

and her body was covered with dust. She stood outside the hall where the Buddha

was staying with tears on her face, still hoping that the Buddha would ordain

her as a nun.

Ananda was surprised to see her in this condition. "Gotami,

why are you standing here like this?" he asked.

"Venerable Ananda, it is because the Blessed One does not

give permission for women to become nuns," she replied.

"Wait here, Gotami, I'll ask the Blessed One about

this," Ananda told her. When Ananda asked the Buddha to admit Maha

Pajapati Gotami as a nun, the Buddha refused. Ananda asked three times and

three times the Buddha refused.

So Ananda put the request in a different way. Respectfully he

questioned the Buddha, "Lord, are women capable of realising the various

stages of sainthood as nuns?"

"They are, Ananda," said the Buddha.

"If that is so, Lord, then it would be good if women could be

ordained as nuns," said Ananda, encouraged by the Buddha's reply.

"If, Ananda, Maha Pajapati Gotami would accept the Eight

Conditions* it would be regarded that she has been ordained already as a

nun."

When Ananda mentioned the conditions to Maha Pajapati Gotami, she

gladly agreed to abide by those conditions and automatically became a nun.

Before long she attained arahantship. The other Sakyan ladies who were ordained

with her also attained Arahantship.

The establishment of an order of nuns with rules and regulations

was an opportunity for women that Buddha offered for the first time in the

history of the world. No other religious leader had given such a high religious

position for women.

[fabianfred]

Atlsbravosfan... (what does that mean?) ..take my teacher's advice, which i should have too.

Do not try to teach those who are obstinate and refuse to listen...you only waste your breath.

It's hard to find truer words. I believe both the Buddha and Jesus said the same thing if I'm not mistaken..

You believe in two invisible friends. And I thought I was a neanderthal.

Both the Buddha and Jesus were real people (although there are doubts about jesus)....it is the god guy who is imaginary.

[fabianfred]

some of us use the money other than to buy mercedes... videos I made whilst a monk.. use HD setting for best view

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28361002@N07/6974860484/in/set-72157612891423088

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28361002@N07/6974846234/in/set-72157612891423088

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28361002@N07/6969727110/in/set-72157612891423088

some of the kids in the last one I've known for several years...since before I ordained....

[jackr]

A local abbot used 2 mil of donations to build (himself) a house. Aircon, bath, satellite TV, etc etc. No desire there, hey. But then I don't understand Thailand.

[atlbravosfan]

Monks...!

Don't you mean Thai men and women in general, who merely don saffron robes and shave their heads for no apparent reason other than what we are told; and that should be good enough to censor any questions about the matter?

There should be a "Book of Deeds" that catalogs the life which every "monk" goes on to lead after leaving the "priesthood". What an eye opener that would be towards the integrity of what these people choose to altruistically uphold in faith and carry throughout their lives after such a life-changing event.

I must be a beggar, because my own sense of beliefs and views are always being beggared here.

You must be new here... didn't you know it is against Thai Buddhism to ordain women as equal to men in the monkhood? Didn't you know that monks can be 'excommunicated' (as if such a term existed in Buddhism) for ordaining women on equal level with men? Obviously, women are lower caliber so they are not fit for the saffron robe (it's actually orange in Thailand anyway)... they can only wear white and be subordinate!

Did Buddha say that women are not equal to men? I read the following :

In the fifth year of his ministry, the Buddha was staying at

Vesali when he heard that his father, King Suddhodana, was ill. He decided to

visit him again at Kapilavatthu to teach him the Dharma, and made the long

journey. After hearing the Dharma, the king immediately attained arahantship

and passed away peacefully seven days later. It was in this year that the order

of nuns was founded at the request of Maha Pajapati Gotami, the aunt and foster

mother of the Buddha.

Three times she approached the Buddha and asked him to ordain her

into the Sangha, but each time the Buddha refused, giving no reason at all.

After the Buddha had stayed at Kapilavatthu a while, he journeyed back to

Vesali.

Pajapati Gotami was a determined lady, and would not be so easily

discouraged. She had a plan to get her way. She cut her hair, put on yellow

garments and, surrounded by a large number of Sakyan ladies, walked 150 miles

from Kapilavatthu to Vesali. When she arrived at Vesali, her feet were swollen

and her body was covered with dust. She stood outside the hall where the Buddha

was staying with tears on her face, still hoping that the Buddha would ordain

her as a nun.

Ananda was surprised to see her in this condition. "Gotami,

why are you standing here like this?" he asked.

"Venerable Ananda, it is because the Blessed One does not

give permission for women to become nuns," she replied.

"Wait here, Gotami, I'll ask the Blessed One about

this," Ananda told her. When Ananda asked the Buddha to admit Maha

Pajapati Gotami as a nun, the Buddha refused. Ananda asked three times and

three times the Buddha refused.

So Ananda put the request in a different way. Respectfully he

questioned the Buddha, "Lord, are women capable of realising the various

stages of sainthood as nuns?"

"They are, Ananda," said the Buddha.

"If that is so, Lord, then it would be good if women could be

ordained as nuns," said Ananda, encouraged by the Buddha's reply.

"If, Ananda, Maha Pajapati Gotami would accept the Eight

Conditions* it would be regarded that she has been ordained already as a

nun."

When Ananda mentioned the conditions to Maha Pajapati Gotami, she

gladly agreed to abide by those conditions and automatically became a nun.

Before long she attained arahantship. The other Sakyan ladies who were ordained

with her also attained Arahantship.

The establishment of an order of nuns with rules and regulations

was an opportunity for women that Buddha offered for the first time in the

history of the world. No other religious leader had given such a high religious

position for women.

My post was sarcastic but it is true here in Thailand that men and women are not viewed equally. Look up Ajahn Brahm... he was ordained in the Thai Forest tradition and was a monk here for many years. Recently, he ordained women as full monks and the top monk of Thailand (despite Buddha purposely never setting up any kind of hierarchy like that) claimed to have 'excommunicated' Aj. Brahm and he is not welcome in Thailand anymore. Sorry for any confusion!

[atlbravosfan]

Atlsbravosfan... (what does that mean?) ..take my teacher's advice, which i should have too.

Do not try to teach those who are obstinate and refuse to listen...you only waste your breath.

People who don't want to learn, who think they already know everything, no point talking to them if we are trying to help them. People can be shown a door but ultimately they have to be the ones to walk through it. You are very right FabianFred.

Also, ATL Braves are my favorite baseball team! It tends to be a screen name nobody uses so it is almost always a first choice for me.

[atlbravosfan]

atlbravosfan is arguing with several people now, arguing with Buddist about what they believe when he is a Buddhist himself.

He is also arguing with non Buddhist and posting Buddhist quotes left right and centre whilst claiming he is not arguing he is having an intellectual conversation.

You take digs at people such as saying "You claim you were a monk,I doubt it" and then claim your not out for an argument, read back through your post, your not posting your counter punching every post you can find as you scroll through looking for opportunities to show your intellect.

What you are doing is preaching to a bunch of members who have no desire to be preached to by an American Buddhist who claims the Thai's have lost the way and American Buddhist's are on track and come on here like your the way.

you also pick pieces out of my post for eg saying you cant carry phones just for suicides, I never once said they did carry them just for that, second time you have posted my apparent thoughts on my behalf despite me not thinking or saying it.

Did you read the Buddhist section about ego, your soul purpose so far if you read back and i'm sure many would agree is an attempt to show your knowledge.

You have hit the temples in The states and your in the excited phase mode that beginners who are not born to it go through, yet to learn how little you know but talking like your journeys complete.

no body can have an intellectual conversation with you like your claiming to want because if you take note you are condescending, it's your way or the highway.

think about that if your ego allows.

Can you quote where I said I doubted you were a monk? I'll wait...

An intellectual conversation is, usually, a debate of some form. I never said we weren't debating or discussing the issues. What I said was that I was not upset by the discussion, I was not angered by it. That was your assertion. Indeed, if I see someone saying something I know to be untrue, I will attempt to help that person. Many times, people help me realize things I am saying or doing that are untrue or unskillful. It's all part of the process. I've never once made a claim that I have reached the goal, nor would I be so foolish to say so.

I've actually never been to a temple in the States, but just keep assuming that you know me and you know my emotional state. It seems to be working out pretty well for you so far.

I've actually been a Buddhist for about 6 years now and I've been to dozens of temples here in Thailand so I have a pretty good idea of Thai Buddhism. I've spoken with monks about complaints about Thai Buddhism, many of the monks agree with the assertions that Thai people are very consumed by superstition - so consumed by it that they do not work out their own enlightenment but are instead focused on gathering merit. If you are doing something to acquire merit - you gain no merit by that action. All you acquire are more attachments.

If I am being very condescending, can you point it out so I can be sure to avoid such an action in the future? I feel as though several posters have indeed been condescending but I also understand where they are coming from. Again, my intention was not to be condescending but to have a discussion about pertinent matters.

No offense, but many people in Thailand didn't 'lose' Buddhism... they never had it to begin with. There are no worship of land spirits, tree spirits, water spirits in Buddha's teachings; there are no praying to statues or givings offerings to the statues in Buddha's teachings; there is no hierarchy of monks, which is essentially a political development, in Buddha's teachings.

Indeed, there are instances of True Dhamma in Thailand, but they are few and far between. I see many more temples and monks giving improper teachings to Thai people, probably because these monks were improperly taught themselves. I don't think many of them teach this way or act this way because they want to do the wrong thing; I think they honestly believe they are doing the right thing.

[muythai2013]

atlbravosfan is arguing with several people now, arguing with Buddist about what they believe when he is a Buddhist himself.

He is also arguing with non Buddhist and posting Buddhist quotes left right and centre whilst claiming he is not arguing he is having an intellectual conversation.

You take digs at people such as saying "You claim you were a monk,I doubt it" and then claim your not out for an argument, read back through your post, your not posting your counter punching every post you can find as you scroll through looking for opportunities to show your intellect.

What you are doing is preaching to a bunch of members who have no desire to be preached to by an American Buddhist who claims the Thai's have lost the way and American Buddhist's are on track and come on here like your the way.

you also pick pieces out of my post for eg saying you cant carry phones just for suicides, I never once said they did carry them just for that, second time you have posted my apparent thoughts on my behalf despite me not thinking or saying it.

Did you read the Buddhist section about ego, your soul purpose so far if you read back and i'm sure many would agree is an attempt to show your knowledge.

You have hit the temples in The states and your in the excited phase mode that beginners who are not born to it go through, yet to learn how little you know but talking like your journeys complete.

no body can have an intellectual conversation with you like your claiming to want because if you take note you are condescending, it's your way or the highway.

think about that if your ego allows.

Can you quote where I said I doubted you were a monk? I'll wait...

An intellectual conversation is, usually, a debate of some form. I never said we weren't debating or discussing the issues. What I said was that I was not upset by the discussion, I was not angered by it. That was your assertion. Indeed, if I see someone saying something I know to be untrue, I will attempt to help that person. Many times, people help me realize things I am saying or doing that are untrue or unskillful. It's all part of the process. I've never once made a claim that I have reached the goal, nor would I be so foolish to say so.

I've actually never been to a temple in the States, but just keep assuming that you know me and you know my emotional state. It seems to be working out pretty well for you so far.

I've actually been a Buddhist for about 6 years now and I've been to dozens of temples here in Thailand so I have a pretty good idea of Thai Buddhism. I've spoken with monks about complaints about Thai Buddhism, many of the monks agree with the assertions that Thai people are very consumed by superstition - so consumed by it that they do not work out their own enlightenment but are instead focused on gathering merit. If you are doing something to acquire merit - you gain no merit by that action. All you acquire are more attachments.

If I am being very condescending, can you point it out so I can be sure to avoid such an action in the future? I feel as though several posters have indeed been condescending but I also understand where they are coming from. Again, my intention was not to be condescending but to have a discussion about pertinent matters.

No offense, but many people in Thailand didn't 'lose' Buddhism... they never had it to begin with. There are no worship of land spirits, tree spirits, water spirits in Buddha's teachings; there are no praying to statues or givings offerings to the statues in Buddha's teachings; there is no hierarchy of monks, which is essentially a political development, in Buddha's teachings.

Indeed, there are instances of True Dhamma in Thailand, but they are few and far between. I see many more temples and monks giving improper teachings to Thai people, probably because these monks were improperly taught themselves. I don't think many of them teach this way or act this way because they want to do the wrong thing; I think they honestly believe they are doing the right thing.

If you read many of my posts you will see I mention numerous times that Thai people mix it with animism.

Ancient tribal beliefs, I just get the feeling your assuming all are not doing it right.

If you are not then I apologize.

[muythai2013]

ok atlbravosfan. I would dearly love to continue what you call an intellectual conversation.

The problem is I lack the knowledge to do so, as you said at the beginning of this thread, being a Monk in my past does not make me an expert.

23 years as A Buddhist now and twice as a Monk, I will return to our discussion when I have the expertise to discuss the matter.

Good day.

[Kananga]

Atlsbravosfan... (what does that mean?) ..take my teacher's advice, which i should have too.

Do not try to teach those who are obstinate and refuse to listen...you only waste your breath.

People who don't want to learn, who think they already know everything, no point talking to them if we are trying to help them. People can be shown a door but ultimately they have to be the ones to walk through it. You are very right FabianFred.

Also, ATL Braves are my favorite baseball team! It tends to be a screen name nobody uses so it is almost always a first choice for me.

How exactly are you trying to help people? By forcing your fairytale beliefs down people's throats and stroking your own ego with your assumptions of superior knowledge of buddhism?

It defies belief how people get sucked into these fantasy beliefs. There must really be a big void in their lives if they are so willing to believe the ridiculous.

[muythai2013]

Atlsbravosfan... (what does that mean?) ..take my teacher's advice, which i should have too.

Do not try to teach those who are obstinate and refuse to listen...you only waste your breath.

People who don't want to learn, who think they already know everything, no point talking to them if we are trying to help them. People can be shown a door but ultimately they have to be the ones to walk through it. You are very right FabianFred.

Also, ATL Braves are my favorite baseball team! It tends to be a screen name nobody uses so it is almost always a first choice for me.

How exactly are you trying to help people? By forcing your fairytale beliefs down people's throats and stroking your own ego with your assumptions of superior knowledge of buddhism?

It defies belief how people get sucked into these fantasy beliefs. There must really be a big void in their lives if they are so willing to believe the ridiculous.

Even as a Buddhist I totally respect your decision to disbelieve.

WE share different beliefs however they are neither ridiculous, mine nor yours, just different.

[kannot]

Throughout the past centuries: The clergy (no matter what religion), has never gone hungry. The only ones gone hungry were their followers.

Amazingly enough, they still have followers up to this very day.

Cheers.

I believe they call them their "flock" for obvious reasons, baaaaaaa baaaaaa

[kannot]

Atlsbravosfan... (what does that mean?) ..take my teacher's advice, which i should have too.

Do not try to teach those who are obstinate and refuse to listen...you only waste your breath.

People who don't want to learn, who think they already know everything, no point talking to them if we are trying to help them. People can be shown a door but ultimately they have to be the ones to walk through it. You are very right FabianFred.

Also, ATL Braves are my favorite baseball team! It tends to be a screen name nobody uses so it is almost always a first choice for me.

How exactly are you trying to help people? By forcing your fairytale beliefs down people's throats and stroking your own ego with your assumptions of superior knowledge of buddhism?

It defies belief how people get sucked into these fantasy beliefs. There must really be a big void in their lives if they are so willing to believe the ridiculous.

Even as a Buddhist I totally respect your decision to disbelieve.

WE share different beliefs however they are neither ridiculous, mine nor yours, just different.

I wish to stand outside everyday swinging my genitals around as this is my "belief" I also must Yodel at 3 am everyday and castrate a female goat but only from a hot air balloon with the name Derek written on it whilst playing a harpsichord in freefall as this is what I believe.

Thanks for respecting my belief.

"beliefs" are ridiculous with no evidence.

[kannot]

Atlsbravosfan... (what does that mean?) ..take my teacher's advice, which i should have too.

Do not try to teach those who are obstinate and refuse to listen...you only waste your breath.

It's hard to find truer words. I believe both the Buddha and Jesus said the same thing if I'm not mistaken..

You believe in two invisible friends. And I thought I was a neanderthal.

Both the Buddha and Jesus were real people (although there are doubts about jesus)....it is the god guy who is imaginary.

There are big doubts about Buddhas existance too.

[atlbravosfan]

Atlsbravosfan... (what does that mean?) ..take my teacher's advice, which i should have too.

Do not try to teach those who are obstinate and refuse to listen...you only waste your breath.

People who don't want to learn, who think they already know everything, no point talking to them if we are trying to help them. People can be shown a door but ultimately they have to be the ones to walk through it. You are very right FabianFred.

Also, ATL Braves are my favorite baseball team! It tends to be a screen name nobody uses so it is almost always a first choice for me.

How exactly are you trying to help people? By forcing your fairytale beliefs down people's throats and stroking your own ego with your assumptions of superior knowledge of buddhism?

It defies belief how people get sucked into these fantasy beliefs. There must really be a big void in their lives if they are so willing to believe the ridiculous.

Can you show what 'fairy tale' beliefs I am forcing down people's throats? As far as I am concerned, Buddhism is equivalent to science. It is based on observation and experience.

I understand there are many stories and fairy tales which have been added through the years to give common people something to hold on to, but that is not what Buddhism is really about. It seems like quite a few of you are here to 'stroke your ego' since that is what you are often accusing others of. It could be that some come here to learn from others and to teach others what they know. Everyone has something to teach and everyone has something they can learn from anyone. This is my personal philosophy.

What makes me laugh is that everyone on here is taking part in a 'belief system,' just some of us seem to not know that.

[atlbravosfan]

ok atlbravosfan. I would dearly love to continue what you call an intellectual conversation.

The problem is I lack the knowledge to do so, as you said at the beginning of this thread, being a Monk in my past does not make me an expert.

23 years as A Buddhist now and twice as a Monk, I will return to our discussion when I have the expertise to discuss the matter.

Good day.

I never said you lacked knowledge. In fact, I'm sure that we agree with each other on many or even most of the important points regarding Buddha's teachings.

My stab at you in my initial post is more of a reaction against 'appeals to authority.' Just because someone was a monk doesn't make them more qualified, as I'm sure you have met countless people who were never monks who know more about Buddha's teachings and put them into practice more often than some people who are wearing the robe.

This is not to say that you were not doing the right thing when you were a monk or even that you do not continue to do the right thing to this very day. It is just that the statement 'I was a monk' is kind of an empty statement unless you are going to relate a story about while you were a monk. It becomes something like a badge of honor that we reveal.

It reminds me of a story I heard once. A man went to go visit his friend who was a master. The man presented his card to a monk at the gate and said, 'Tell the master I am here to see him.' The monk brought the card to the master; it said the man's name and underneath it said 'Governor of XXXX Province.' The master gave the card back and said, 'I do not know this man, tell him to go away.' The monk told what the master said to the man. The man said, oh I apologize and he scratched his title off the card. 'Try again please?' When the master saw the card the second time he said, 'Oh of course! Tell him to come in right away!'

[atlbravosfan]

There are big doubts about Buddhas existance too.

Not saying you are incorrect about there being 'big doubts' about the existence of the historical Buddha, but do you have any sources for those doubts? I just did a quick search myself and nothing of note turned up; especially not in the way when I google 'people doubt existence of Jesus'

[Kananga]

Atlsbravosfan... (what does that mean?) ..take my teacher's advice, which i should have too.

Do not try to teach those who are obstinate and refuse to listen...you only waste your breath.

People who don't want to learn, who think they already know everything, no point talking to them if we are trying to help them. People can be shown a door but ultimately they have to be the ones to walk through it. You are very right FabianFred.

Also, ATL Braves are my favorite baseball team! It tends to be a screen name nobody uses so it is almost always a first choice for me.

How exactly are you trying to help people? By forcing your fairytale beliefs down people's throats and stroking your own ego with your assumptions of superior knowledge of buddhism?

It defies belief how people get sucked into these fantasy beliefs. There must really be a big void in their lives if they are so willing to believe the ridiculous.

Can you show what 'fairy tale' beliefs I am forcing down people's throats? As far as I am concerned, Buddhism is equivalent to science. It is based on observation and experience.

I understand there are many stories and fairy tales which have been added through the years to give common people something to hold on to, but that is not what Buddhism is really about. It seems like quite a few of you are here to 'stroke your ego' since that is what you are often accusing others of. It could be that some come here to learn from others and to teach others what they know. Everyone has something to teach and everyone has something they can learn from anyone. This is my personal philosophy.

What makes me laugh is that everyone on here is taking part in a 'belief system,' just some of us seem to not know that.

'Karma' has no place in the scientific community. It cannot be observed, measured or be proven to exist. Its very fundamentals go against reason and logic. It is a fairytale doctrine used to great effect in controlling the masses and ensuring that through fear there is ongoing donations, I mean devotion to the buddhist cult. I mean sect. Thats it, devotion to the sect. Dont know where I got donations to the cult from. Silly me.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Kananga

[atlbravosfan]

If you read many of my posts you will see I mention numerous times that Thai people mix it with animism.

Ancient tribal beliefs, I just get the feeling your assuming all are not doing it right.

If you are not then I apologize.

Honestly, I bet you deal with a lot of stereotyping, especially posting on these forums. You probably deal with quite a bit of arrogance and hostility as well, so I understand where you are coming from.

I had a talk recently with a Muslim friend of mine about why people think of Muslims in a certain way. We were discussing history, events, teachings - a wide variety of discussions. He then told me to stop painting all Muslims the same, to stop stereotyping them. It was like he was talking to someone else. I have numerous Muslim friends who are wonderful people and even have very similar beliefs to what I have. I draw inspiration from some Muslim sages as I believe they were on to something important as well. The Truth is not owned by one 'religion.' It is something all humanity has within themselves and all they have to do is look.

Likewise, I have many Thai friends who are incredible Buddhists. One of my best friends owns a restaurant in town and we discuss prices at other places - how the owners are just ripping tourists and 'farangs' off and they think nothing is wrong with it. They think the tourists and 'farangs' can afford to pay more, so why not? Similar thing with taxis and tuk-tuks around here (Phuket). My friend was telling me how these people claim to be Buddhist and then they don't follow any part of the Noble Eightfold Path. Because they lack Right View, they do not practice Right Livelihood. They are basically stealing, which is not practicing Right Action. They have improper thoughts about what they are doing and speak ill of 'farangs' and people with dark skin (I've heard monks here in Phuket say about my fiancee, 'Why is that black person here? They should leave our temple.' She speaks fluent Thai.) This leads to them not practicing Right Thought or Right Speech. I see many people just giving offerings because it is a 'good thing to do,' while they give me dirty looks while I am meditating but have nothing to offer for their altar. They are not practicing Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, or Right Concentration. Because they don't practice any part of the Noble Eightfold Path, I find it hard to call some people 'Buddhists.'

Another motto of mine: No generalization is completely true, not even this one. There are countless Thai people who practice true Dhamma and share in the fruits of the true Dhamma. Thailand can be a true Buddhaland and it doesn't have to be because the government made it the official religion; it will be because people are practicing, sharing, and living the true Dhamma.

I hope that clears up any miscommunication between us.

[atlbravosfan]

'Karma' has no place in the scientific community. It cannot be observed, measured or be proven to exist. Its very fundamentals go against reason and logic. It is a fairytale doctrine used to great effect in controlling the masses and ensuring that through fear there is ongoing donations, I mean devotion to the buddhist cult. I mean sect. Thats it, devotion to the sect. Dont know where I got donations to the cult from. Silly me.

Well, I've already explained to you that Karma simply means the law of cause and effect. This is because that is. This is not because that is not.

One thing causes another thing to exist. No thing can exist independently of other things. Do you not believe in cause and effect?