Thai Language.....where Else Is It Useful......

[Tomtomtom69]

sunlong, on 05 Jun 2013 - 14:30, said:

NeverSure, on 05 Jun 2013 - 06:23, said:

For instance in France it is common to find those who work with the public speaking English, but not so much the average person.

Actually the French are all taught English in school - they just don't admit they can speak it while in France, real chip on their shoulder about their language, more sad than funny really.

Best is to start out trying to speak French to them, and if your skill level is really horrible, then - if it's an open-minded and kind person - they will take pity on you and switch to English.

But if you start out in English they'll take it as an insult.

Tomtomtom69, on 05 Jun 2013 - 12:57, said:

By contrast, in Australia you have a case of reverse racism when it comes to employing non-Thais and certainly non-Asians for any position at a Thai restaurant. A highly motivated Iranian PhD student, one of my dad's own students was refused a job as a server at a Thai restaurant near her university in Sydney, because she is not Thai! A very racist move that should have been referred to the anti-discrimination committee, but being from Iran she was probably used to being discriminated against as a woman and so probably didn't think much of this act of racial discrimination after initially being totally shocked of course.

In most jurisdictions it is perfectly acceptable for a Thai restaurant to give preference to employing Thais for customer-contact positions, in order to give a more authentic overall experience to their customers.

Just as a company can require a young and beautiful receptionist for marketing purposes.

These common-sense exceptions only fall by the wayside where unions are allowed to override market realities, and countries/industries that allow that to happen will quickly find themselves on the decline.

Witness the US airlines as opposed to the Asian ones.

I understand your point but it's still discrimination. In Australia and other western countries there are tribunals such as the anti-discrimination commission which is designed to handle such cases and anti-discrimination laws are enshrined in the constitution these days. Also, isn't it a bit of a double standard if I go to an American steak restaurant in Thailand and all the servers and chefs are Thai - that's not very authentic, as cute as the girls might be. If I wanted to make sure I could get an authentic Texas steak I'd rather have a real Texan serving me (as is the case in Vietnam where I know a guy that runs an American restaurant in Nha Trang and although he employs locals of course, he sometimes takes orders and always chats with customers!) On the other hand why should a Thai restaurant in Australia not also employ Aussies, Chinese, Iranians etc. seeing it's a multicultural country? In America they are already doing so, why is Australia so different? Edited June 6, 2013 by Tomtomtom69

[lovelaos]

@tomtomtom69

"In Lao, males usually say "doy" which sounds a bit like the Chinese "dui" meaning right or correct when answering something in the affirmative. Females either say "doy" or "jao". I have never heard a Thai Isarn speaker use "doy" but maybe I wasn't listening for it. I should ask one of my Thai Isarn friends if she knows this word; I suspect she might but probably wouldn't use it herself or even any males she knows would use it"

Butter in Lao is "beu" or essentially "beurre" from the French, whereas in Thai it's "neuy".

This is wrong I'm afraid. "Doy" is a more polite form of "jao" and used by both sexes to mean "yes" or used as conformation.There is no differentials in the Lao language between the sexes as there is in Thai.

Neuy is Laotian for butter also.

[Jasun]

Swearing under your breath at your farang husband.

[sunlong]

I understand your point but it's still discrimination. In Australia and other western countries there are tribunals such as the anti-discrimination commission which is designed to handle such cases and anti-discrimination laws are enshrined in the constitution these days. Also, isn't it a bit of a double standard if I go to an American steak restaurant in Thailand and all the servers and chefs are Thai - that's not very authentic, as cute as the girls might be. If I wanted to make sure I could get an authentic Texas steak I'd rather have a real Texan serving me (as is the case in Vietnam where I know a guy that runs an American restaurant in Nha Trang and although he employs locals of course, he sometimes takes orders and always chats with customers!) On the other hand why should a Thai restaurant in Australia not also employ Aussies, Chinese, Iranians etc. seeing it's a multicultural country? In America they are already doing so, why is Australia so different?

-

I can't speak to the fine point differences between how these ideals are implemented in practice in the US vs Australia.

Just pointing out the principle that if a business can make a valid case for using male Asian dwarfs between 20 and 25 because in that particular situation that will help the business then that should be OK.

Obvious examples include casting for acting roles, fashion modeling, really any public-facing staff, there are employment agencies openly advertising that they only accept handsome/beautiful applicants.

A ladies perfume company looking for sales people is allowed to hire females only, PC doesn't override common sense at least not yet.

Except when unions get involved protecting their members, then it often goes too far IMO.

Obviously in Thailand none of these legal restrictions exist employers are free to discriminate however they like, like the airline that only hired katoeys.

Hiring only farang wait staff for a steak house would probably not be worth the extra expense but no problem here.

Hiring only Thai wait staff at a Thai restaurant would IMO be fine in the US, would be surprised if Oz has gone too far overboard to prevent that, easy to make a business case for it.

But few businesses would actually go to that much trouble, unless there were a lot of Thais locally available anyway.

[SinglePot]

If you find a Thai massage girl in say ...Australia and you speak some Thai to her, it is amazing the attitude change.

Same in London. Price drops.

[sunlong]

Falang is Falang and despite what others say, it does come from the word Farangse (French)

-

Actually more likely "farang" was in use here long before "farangset", since the kingdom of the Franks preceded anything "French", a major Germanic tribe of the Middle Ages (heard of Charlemagne?) which was trading in Asia as far back as 500 years ago.

Even if there wasn't direct contact that early, Persian and Indian trade was widespread in the 17th century, and Portuguese traders later on were also called the same - that's of course how the guava (also farang in Thai) got here.

Farangi in both Persian and Urdu, Pfirangi in Sanskrit, Feringhi in Hindi, al-Faranj in Arabic, Frangos in Greek, Frenk in Turkish, , Barang in Khmer, Ferenggi in Malay.

Now I think we should have a spirited intellectual discussion on whether white people should use this word mixed in with English, and whether or not it's derogatory when Thais use it to talk about us rather than using our proper name.

Edited June 6, 2013 by sunlong

[sunlong]

If you find a Thai massage girl in say ...Australia and you speak some Thai to her, it is amazing the attitude change.

Same in London. Price drops.

-

Or even if she doesn't have that flexibility, the service may be a bit better.

Even in Thai restaurants sometimes you get extras.

[SinglePot]

Enjoy your travels and conversations with the locals OP. I'm envious.

Looking ahead, the 10 members of the ASEAN will need a common language soon. Or the AEC will at least.

Let's hope all the local colours are not lost.

[SinglePot]

If you find a Thai massage girl in say ...Australia and you speak some Thai to her, it is amazing the attitude change.

Same in London. Price drops.

-Or even if she doesn't have that flexibility, the service may be a bit better.Even in Thai restaurants sometimes you get extras.

Yep. Saying thank you properly is a sure fire winner in a Thai restaurant.

[krisb]

@lovelaos, after 10 years of living there you should be excellent! Yes issan isn't Laos, but it's a crossbred

form of Laos and when you know a little Thai already, a little Issans not much harder. Would you agree issan is understood in Laos?

[lovelaos]

@lovelaos, after 10 years of living there you should be excellent! Yes issan isn't Laos, but it's a crossbred

form of Laos and when you know a little Thai already, a little Issans not much harder. Would you agree issan is understood in Laos?

Of course it is. It used to be Laos.

[jpinx]

As an aside - I was able to chat with older people in Laos and Cambodia in French. A reflection of formet times I suppose...

[sunlong]

Of course it is. It used to be Laos.

-

Errm no. History gets written by the winner, so different versions depending on who wrote the schoolbooks, 99% of the time driven by(now modern flavors) of nationalistic colonial motivations rather than historical accuracy.

First of all the whole concept of "national territory" is a pretty recent import, only really implemented as a result of colonialism.

The various "kingdoms" were centered on cities - Luang Prabang, Chiang Mai, Ayuthaya then Bangkok, and the surrounding countryside paid regular tribute - treasure, elephants, slaves - to them to keep the peace.

From this point of view, different areas occupied by peoples of Isaan/Laos language/culture/DNA were "part of" Thai, Khmer and even Vietnam - Hue - territory at various stages.

Before the French took over, most of what is now Laos was controlled by Siam.

Before that the Laos kingdom of Lan Xang was quite powerful, but its territory didn't extend very far into what is now Isaan.

Edited June 6, 2013 by sunlong

[SinglePot]

And on the subject of political correctness and discrimination, you could argue that a supposedly 'Thai restaurant' that has a Polish chef is actually operating outside of what is called in Britain, 'The Trades Description Act.'

I come to Thailand to get away from this kind of thing.

[onionluke]

As an aside - I was able to chat with older people in Laos and Cambodia in French. A reflection of formet times I suppose...

OT , but I was granted a visa for Vietnam by the Vietnam Consulate in Savanakhet . That day was fun . The consulate was an old colonial villa and the visa was hand written in French . The whole interview was conducted in French by an elderly officer sat behind an ancient desk in a beautiful suite with bay windows .

[SinglePot]

Sounds like a great shot for theblether's photo album.

Nip down to VietNam OP. How's your French?

[SinglePot]

I get strange looks back here in Canada when I say "Kraap pun Ka" when someone gives me something.

that's cause its korp kun ka.Sent from my LG-E612 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Thank you for the correction. I don't have my Thai dictionary here in Canada, so I was trying to go by memory. Actually, I usually just say something that "sounds" like Cup Kun kah and every Thai knows what I mean.When closely listening to Thais I seldom hear anything that remotely sounds like how it is printed in dictionaries. A good example is the name "Kanchanaburi". If you say that to a Thai they won't know what you asked. But, say something that sort of sounds like "Gangedenapoli" and they will take you to the correct bus depot.It's a funny world and I love it.

Me too.

No doubt somebody on this thread can translate 'You get skin whitener at 7/11?' into any number of SEA languages.

There are some hardened posters on TV.

My Guy Fawkes mask is getting some pretty odd looks in Thailand too at the moment.

Funny ol world.

[krisb]

@tomtomtom69

 

"In Lao, males usually say "doy" which sounds a bit like the Chinese "dui" meaning right or correct when answering something in the affirmative. Females either say "doy" or "jao". I have never heard a Thai Isarn speaker use "doy" but maybe I wasn't listening for it. I should ask one of my Thai Isarn friends if she knows this word; I suspect she might but probably wouldn't use it herself or even any males she knows would use it"

Butter in Lao is "beu" or essentially "beurre" from the French, whereas in Thai it's "neuy".

 

This is wrong I'm afraid. "Doy" is a more polite form of "jao" and used by both sexes to mean "yes" or used as conformation.There is no differentials in the Lao language between the sexes as there is in Thai. 

 

Neuy is Laotian for butter also.

interesting. So there's no khrap or kah in Laos. Issan there is although not much in the village or at least ours when neighbors talk to each other it's just err err.School kids use khrap/kah out of respect towards adults. Then again khrap /kah is Thai language not Laos. Another thing is the similarities between the writing. But that's another story huh.

Language is fascinating!

[krisb]

My wife was saying doy and jao are also used in Chiang Mai the same they're used in Laos.

[hookedondhamma]

@tomtomtom69

"In Lao, males usually say "doy" which sounds a bit like the Chinese "dui" meaning right or correct wen answering something in the affirmative. Females either say "doy" or "jao". I have never heard a Thai Isarn speaker use "doy" but maybe I wasn't listening for it. I should ask one of my Thai Isarn friends if she knows this word; I suspect she might but probably wouldn't use it herself or even any males she knows would use it"

Butter in Lao is "beu" or essentially "beurre" from the French, whereas in Thai it's "neuy".

This is wrong I'm afraid. "Doy" is a more polite form of "jao" and used by both sexes to mean "yes" or used as conformation.There is no differentials in the Lao language between the sexes as there is in Thai.

Neuy is Laotian for butter also.

interesting. So there's no khrap or kah in Laos. Issan there is although not much in the village or at least ours when neighbors talk to each other it's just err err.School kids use khrap/kah out of respect towards adults. Then again khrap /kah is Thai language not Laos. Another thing is the similarities between the writing. But that's another story huh.

Language is fascinating!

Isaan used to have it's own script, just like the in the north you can see remnants of the lanna script at various temples. (if anyone is interested there is a monk who still writes it, and at his temple there's still a few whiteboards with all the nuances of the script). It was known as Isaan Thamm/Isaan Dhamma script and was very similar to and resembled both the Thai noi, Lanna, and Mon scripts. It had it's own set of tone rules and markers, and used to be used to teach the children at temples. Thaification happened.

In this day and age many young Isaan won't believe you, especially if foreigner; it seems to be gaining interest little by little again, though.

There's a great PdF floating it there that does a darn good job teaching it, though it uses Thai to do so.

If anyone is interested and in Korat let me know; I read and write it, and thanks to the computer, type it as well. There is also a temple here that has the Isaan Thamm characters carved across the main doors of the large chant hall.

I also have access to Lanna documents and those written in Mon (also read and write both), if anyone is just curious to look.

Back on topic, i absolutely love the Laotian language. I studied it before coming to Thailand and ended up in Loei so it was great. still get allot of laughs when i speak it though so mainly stick to Thai.

Edited June 6, 2013 by hookedondhamma

[hookedondhamma]

My wife was saying doy and jao are also used in Chiang Mai the same they're used in Laos.

I agree. Northern Thai is a treat to listen to.

[SinglePot]

My wife was saying doy and jao are also used in Chiang Mai the same they're used in Laos.

I agree. Northern Thai is a treat to listen to.

And Yunnan Lao is a lot prettier than Mandarin.

I know language and thought are intimately related. Is there any connection between how a language sounds and the nature of its people I wonder?

[krisb]

My wife was saying doy and jao are also used in Chiang Mai the same they're used in Laos.

I agree. Northern Thai is a treat to listen to.

And Yunnan Lao is a lot prettier than Mandarin.

I know language and thought are intimately related. Is there any connection between how a language sounds and the nature of its people I wonder?

Care to elaborate please?

Sent from my LG-E612 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[SinglePot]

If a language is 'a treat to listen to' does that reflect on the nature of the people, and vice versa?

[jpinx]

My wife was saying doy and jao are also used in Chiang Mai the same they're used in Laos.

I agree. Northern Thai is a treat to listen to.

And Yunnan Lao is a lot prettier than Mandarin.

I know language and thought are intimately related. Is there any connection between how a language sounds and the nature of its people I wonder?

Not so much how the language sounds, but certainly there is a connection between the daily vocabulary and sentence structure, and the thought processes.

[theblether]

Sounds like a great shot for theblether's photo album.

Nip down to VietNam OP. How's your French?

Eh, pathetic.....I suppose I could get my school books out and start again though.

[theblether]

My wife was saying doy and jao are also used in Chiang Mai the same they're used in Laos.

She's right, I've just got my head round those words in CM and I was delighted to hear them used in Laos.

To me it's an even greater motivation to learn Thai, knowing that I can use it elsewhere.

[SinglePot]

My wife was saying doy and jao are also used in Chiang Mai the same they're used in Laos.

She's right, I've just got my head round those words in CM and I was delighted to hear them used in Laos.

To me it's an even greater motivation to learn Thai, knowing that I can use it elsewhere.

Excellent. Delighted to hear that Thai will be your next language and not Chinese.

[LuukKoeyKorat]

The Tai Yai or Shan language spoken in Shan State of Burma is in the same language family as Thai and Lao.

Burmese, however, is completely different.

Cambodian (Khmer) is also entirely different from Thai, although they use similar alphabets, and Thai has a number of loanwords originating in Khmer.

Vietnamese and Malaysian are both totally different from Thai as well.

because so many receive thai tv in Cambodia, many understand basic Thai.

As a caveat, you can speak thai to get around in Lao and cambodia, but only as a tourist. Settl down somewhere and you will quickly find that your Thai becomes a source of resentment -- the locals will soon bgin to wonder when you will begin to make the effort in their real language that you made with thai

Spot on! - I moved to upcountry Laos with my Thai girlfriend. Although my conversational Thai is adequate and she can converse in Isaan with the locals, after a few months I came to the conclusion that although the villagers and myself can fundamentally communicate OK with each other in Thai/Isaan...the Lao language completely has its own words and expressions for almost anything...after 2 years here I have forgotten most of my Thai and speak with Lao with a Luang Prabang countryside accent (think english Geordie or german Saxon) :-)

[LuukKoeyKorat]

@tomtomtom69

"In Lao, males usually say "doy" which sounds a bit like the Chinese "dui" meaning right or correct when answering something in the affirmative. Females either say "doy" or "jao". I have never heard a Thai Isarn speaker use "doy" but maybe I wasn't listening for it. I should ask one of my Thai Isarn friends if she knows this word; I suspect she might but probably wouldn't use it herself or even any males she knows would use it"

Butter in Lao is "beu" or essentially "beurre" from the French, whereas in Thai it's "neuy".

This is wrong I'm afraid. "Doy" is a more polite form of "jao" and used by both sexes to mean "yes" or used as conformation.There is no differentials in the Lao language between the sexes as there is in Thai.

Neuy is Laotian for butter also.

'Doy' was the respectable polite form of reply when acknowledging elders or people of higher class pre-1975. You still hear it used by the older villagers. 'Jao' was introduced and encouraged to the language by the Communists after they shortened the Lao alphabet and simplified the language to make it all more 'egalitarian'.