Question About Buying Regulator(A Clamp Or Din Fitting)

[Simon1985]

I am going to buy a regulator in the next few weeks. With the first stages there is the option of the A Clamp or Din Fitting. I know the dive shop will give me advice on what to buy but there's a lot of knowledgeable divers on this forum. I would appreciate some advice, feedback appreciated.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Simon1985

[IrishIvan]

Go with DIN. Most dive shops around use tanks that accept DIN fittings. Yoke fittings arent too popular in Phuket

[Quero]

Sorry, Ivan, it's just the opposite. DIN tank valves are not exactly common in Thailand, and most people who show up with a DIN reg need a DIN adapter in order to make the reg fit the yoke-style tank valves that are the most common here.

So my reply for Simon is to buy the fitting that you will use most often. If you will be diving in a place where DIN is prevalent, like in Europe and the Med, buy a DIN fitting; if you are going to be diving mainly in Asia and the Americas, buy an A-clamp yoke fitting. Also, keep in mind that this isn't written in stone. You can get it switched later if you want by buying the parts and just switching it. I have recently converted one of my own Apeks DIN first stage regs to the international (yoke) system for recreational diving here in Asia because I don't want to fuss with the DIN adapter and I do want to dive the regs sometimes!

[NomadJoe]

Go with DIN. Most dive shops around use tanks that accept DIN fittings. Yoke fittings arent too popular in Phuket

Quero is right. It's the other way round. Nearly 100% yoke here. DIN stands for "Deutsches Institut für Normung", which means "German Institute for Standardization". It is more popular in Europe. And "A clamp" is referred to as "Yoke" in many places. Also don't confuse that with "K" and "J" valves. "J" valves are old school valves that had a reserve switch.

It's true that most tanks you see on boats and rentals in Phuket fit DIN, but just as a little side note, they aren't true DIN in the sense that they do not tolerate the higher pressure which true DIN valves and regs can, The DIN valves you see around here are really yoke valves which have an insert which can be screwed out which can then accept a DIN regulator.

Dive boats have both DIN to yoke and yoke to DIN converters on board.

Edited June 4, 2013 by NomadJoe

[PhuketdashScuba]

For this area and in general SEA: yoke. DIN however is without a doubt the better system, so you could also consider buying yoke and using an adapter where no DIN available. Slowly slowly DIN is becoming more common also here, our tanks e.g. are DIN with yoke inserts, so usable for both, and on more and more boats also these DIN valves with inserts are available.

And yes Joe, these DIN valves are true DIN valves.

[Simon1985]

Sorry, Ivan, it's just the opposite. DIN tank valves are not exactly common in Thailand, and most people who show up with a DIN reg need a DIN adapter in order to make the reg fit the yoke-style tank valves that are the most common here.

So my reply for Simon is to buy the fitting that you will use most often. If you will be diving in a place where DIN is prevalent, like in Europe and the Med, buy a DIN fitting; if you are going to be diving mainly in Asia and the Americas, buy an A-clamp yoke fitting. Also, keep in mind that this isn't written in stone. You can get it switched later if you want by buying the parts and just switching it. I have recently converted one of my own Apeks DIN first stage regs to the international (yoke) system for recreational diving here in Asia because I don't want to fuss with the DIN adapter and I do want to dive the regs sometimes!

HI Quero, thanks for the informative reply. I will be diving mainly in Asia for the next 2 years. If I buy the A-Clamp yoke fitting and later on want to dive in Europe can I buy the fitting to convert it to DIN. (Asking the question as you converted your regulator the other way around) Also is it easy to remove this fitting or does it have to be done by a technician in a dive shop.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Simon1985

[Simon1985]

Go with DIN. Most dive shops around use tanks that accept DIN fittings. Yoke fittings arent too popular in Phuket

Quero is right. It's the other way round. Nearly 100% yoke here. DIN stands for "Deutsches Institut für Normung", which means "German Institute for Standardization". It is more popular in Europe. And "A clamp" is referred to as "Yoke" in many places. Also don't confuse that with "K" and "J" valves. "J" valves are old school valves that had a reserve switch.

It's true that most tanks you see on boats and rentals in Phuket fit DIN, but just as a little side note, they aren't true DIN in the sense that they do not tolerate the higher pressure which true DIN valves and regs can, The DIN valves you see around here are really yoke valves which have an insert which can be screwed out which can then accept a DIN regulator.

Dive boats have both DIN to yoke and yoke to DIN converters on board.

Nomad Joe is it easy to unscrew the insert or do you need special tools and how much is the insert.

[Quero]

If you are considering a regulator which offers you the option of either a DIN or a yoke fitting on the same model, it should be possible to convert it fairly easily later. If you're handy and service your own equipment, it's not hard to do the conversion, but if you generally send your regs in for service, as most people do, you can just ask the tech to change the fitting at that time. In other words, it's not something you'd want to be doing every other week, depending on what sort of tank valve you expect to encounter, but fundamentally, it's a simple process.

As for the tank valves with the inserts, when you find them, the inserts are not that hard to get out. It just requires a hex key of the correct size. Not all boats have this sort of valve on their tanks, though, so if you were to decide to buy a DIN reg, I'd recommend also getting a DIN adapter for those cases in which the tanks are NOT the sort that have the removable insert and are only yoke valves.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Quero

[IrishIvan]

sorry I got it back to front !! had a few bevvies last night

[snorkelador]

If you are diving mainly in Asia, it would be easier to go with a Yoke clamp, although the DIN system is far superior. Yes, more and more valves found on tanks are DIN valves with insert, that make them usable with Yoke clamp regulators. Mind you, it needs to be a DIN/Yoke valve from the start, in order to have those inserts make them accept a Yoke clamp regulator. All you need to convert those valves is installing an insert with working o-ring, which is done with a hex key. However, those valves may not be on found on every dive boat and every dive shop in Asia. You could still use a DIN regulator on a strictly Yoke valve with a DIN adapter though. Those adapters have disadvantages though. They bring the first stage further out from the valve and closer to your head, which is not ideal and if left on the first stage for longer periods of time, they are often hard to remove without causing damage. What I would suggest is buying a Yoke clamp regulator and when you dive somewhere DIN valves are common, just convert the regulator with a DIN conversion kit. It's not very hard to do at all, if you can hold and operate a wrench reasonably AND understand that bronze is a softer material than e.g. steel. Sounds trivial, but if you are not sure it's better to let someone else do it. Maybe not always the common dive instructor, who thinks they know about regs, because they use them every day and have changed a few hoses without actually damaging too much.

Btw. there are 200 Bar and 300 Bar versions of DIN fittings. The latter ones have 7 instead of 5 threads IIRC. Pretty easy to look it up, which I can't be bothered with.

[Simon1985]

Thanks for the replies.

[commande]

Get a Yolk valve, DIN is reserved for Tech divers like me LOL -- - hahahahaha Just kidding...

In cold water I would always recommend DIN (300 bar), when I say cold water I am referring to cold enough for a dry suit and tank of argon gas to inflate your suit. Reason is the cold tends to shrink things such as O-Rings, just doesn't seem to seal as well. Cave Diving, penetration diving in ship wrecks, serious technical diving, we all use DIN but that is well beyond recreational diving.

Recreational diving in warm water, really no need for DIN, especially in Thailand but in the future if you want to convert your regulators to DIN fittings you can order a conversion kit which is not expensive. All my equipment is DIN, I carry 2 DIN to Yoke adapters with me in the event I come across a tank that won't take a DIN valve which is very rare here.

Edited June 5, 2013 by commande

[NomadJoe]

For this area and in general SEA: yoke. DIN however is without a doubt the better system, so you could also consider buying yoke and using an adapter where no DIN available. Slowly slowly DIN is becoming more common also here, our tanks e.g. are DIN with yoke inserts, so usable for both, and on more and more boats also these DIN valves with inserts are available.

And yes Joe, these DIN valves are true DIN valves.

I may be proved wrong here, but my understanding has always been that "DIN only" valves can tolerate higher pressures which the yoke/DIN valves cannot.

[NomadJoe]

Go with DIN. Most dive shops around use tanks that accept DIN fittings. Yoke fittings arent too popular in Phuket

Quero is right. It's the other way round. Nearly 100% yoke here. DIN stands for "Deutsches Institut für Normung", which means "German Institute for Standardization". It is more popular in Europe. And "A clamp" is referred to as "Yoke" in many places. Also don't confuse that with "K" and "J" valves. "J" valves are old school valves that had a reserve switch.

It's true that most tanks you see on boats and rentals in Phuket fit DIN, but just as a little side note, they aren't true DIN in the sense that they do not tolerate the higher pressure which true DIN valves and regs can, The DIN valves you see around here are really yoke valves which have an insert which can be screwed out which can then accept a DIN regulator.

Dive boats have both DIN to yoke and yoke to DIN converters on board.

Nomad Joe is it easy to unscrew the insert or do you need special tools and how much is the insert.

What Quero said in post #8 paragraph 2.

[NomadJoe]

For this area and in general SEA: yoke. DIN however is without a doubt the better system, so you could also consider buying yoke and using an adapter where no DIN available. Slowly slowly DIN is becoming more common also here, our tanks e.g. are DIN with yoke inserts, so usable for both, and on more and more boats also these DIN valves with inserts are available.

And yes Joe, these DIN valves are true DIN valves.

I may be proved wrong here, but my understanding has always been that "DIN only" valves can tolerate higher pressures which the yoke/DIN valves cannot.

Different Kinds of DIN Regulators:

To make matters more confusing, there are two different kinds of DIN regulators and DIN valves: 200 bar and 300 bar (bar is the metric unit of pressure). 300 bar valves are deeper and require a regulator with a longer post with more threads. The difference lies in the amount of pressure the tank valve is rated to withstand. There is not much difference as far as the regulator is concerned because the first few threads of the post do all the work. A 300 bar DIN regulator can be easily used on a 200 bar tank valve, but a 200 bar regulator will not seal properly to a 300 bar tank valve. It doesn't make much sense to buy a 200 bar DIN regulator.

http://scuba.about.com/od/regulators/p/DINvsYoke.htm

Steve I am pretty sure that yoke valves with DIN inserts are of the 200 Bar variety, at least the ones I have seen are. The 300 Bar DIN valves I have seen have a noticeably deeper bore. That is what I meant by "true DIN".

[PhuketdashScuba]

Yes, I know and I know what you mean. But DIN does not have to be 300 bar to be 'real DIN', which is what I mean. Your statement 'not 300 bar so not true DIN' is simply not correct.

[commande]

Yes, I know and I know what you mean. But DIN does not have to be 300 bar to be 'real DIN', which is what I mean. Your statement 'not 300 bar so not true DIN' is simply not correct.

Correct there are 2 different DIN types, one is considered low pressure at 200 bar (5 threads) and the other high pressure at 300 bar (7 threads). Most people have 200 bar DIN connectors if they have DIN at all because even they don't know the difference and dive recreational. If you want 300 bar DIN connectors you have to actually state that when you order or the default will be 200 bar normally.

You can still take a 200bar DIN connector to well lets say around 220bar, I would never recommend it but it works. Most dive boats load the tanks at around 180-205bar so no worries; generally depends on the temperature outside. 300 bar is going to be more well for tech divers that need and want the extra air and the tanks are different to take that much air pressure, steel tanks not aluminum.

If your a recreational diver you shouldn't even be worrying about a DIN valve, just get a Yolk setup and go have fun diving, it's what most people have and you wont have to carry all those extra adapters and tools like I do.

Edited June 6, 2013 by commande

[NomadJoe]

Yes, I know and I know what you mean. But DIN does not have to be 300 bar to be 'real DIN', which is what I mean. Your statement 'not 300 bar so not true DIN' is simply not correct.

I am fairly certain that if you go back a few years before the hybrid DIN/yoke valves came about, the DIN only valves were generally had a 300 Bar operating pressure and the yoke ones were 200 bar. Heck, even the PADI open water video states DIN is for higher pressure. Thus only 300 bar 7 thread DIN valves are "true DIN." The rest are really just yoke valves that fit DIN regulators if you remove the insert. They are not rated to 300B, thus can't be "true DIN". The whole point of DIN originally was to accommodate higher pressures in applications outside of scuba.

[commande]

Yes, I know and I know what you mean. But DIN does not have to be 300 bar to be 'real DIN', which is what I mean. Your statement 'not 300 bar so not true DIN' is simply not correct.

I am fairly certain that if you go back a few years before the hybrid DIN/yoke valves came about, the DIN only valves were generally had a 300 Bar operating pressure and the yoke ones were 200 bar. Heck, even the PADI open water video states DIN is for higher pressure. Thus only 300 bar 7 thread DIN valves are "true DIN." The rest are really just yoke valves that fit DIN regulators if you remove the insert. They are not rated to 300B, thus can't be "true DIN". The whole point of DIN originally was to accommodate higher pressures in applications outside of scuba.

Actually DIN was developed in the EU before the yoke valve even existed. It was originally rated at 300 bar because back in the day they used higher pressure tanks. DIN 200 was created because in Scuba most recreational divers don't use that high of pressure but in the EU the DIN valve is still the most predominantly sold valve design. There are many people from the EU that show up in Thailand with their own gear and they have DIN valves.

Lastly in some countries like the USA the use of a 300bar tank is restricted to Certified Tech divers, recreational divers can't use them and you rarely find them on a recreational dive boat. Yoke was adopted because it is easier to hook-up and cost less to manufacture... Really there is no such difference between a DIN 200 and DIN 300 being a "True DIN." The design is exactly the same minus the thread count.

Edited June 6, 2013 by commande

[PhuketdashScuba]

Yes, I know and I know what you mean. But DIN does not have to be 300 bar to be 'real DIN', which is what I mean. Your statement 'not 300 bar so not true DIN' is simply not correct.

I am fairly certain that if you go back a few years before the hybrid DIN/yoke valves came about, the DIN only valves were generally had a 300 Bar operating pressure and the yoke ones were 200 bar. Heck, even the PADI open water video states DIN is for higher pressure. Thus only 300 bar 7 thread DIN valves are "true DIN." The rest are really just yoke valves that fit DIN regulators if you remove the insert. They are not rated to 300B, thus can't be "true DIN". The whole point of DIN originally was to accommodate higher pressures in applications outside of scuba.

DIN valves have been around for years and years, and the BAR's allowed have nothing to do with the design (apart from the thread difference introduced later to prevent accidents).

The converters etc. came along a lot later, way after the DIN valves.

Regarding the PADI video: made in the US without any knowledge about anything other than mainstream US diving.

Edited June 7, 2013 by PhuketdashScuba

[PhuketdashScuba]

Yes, I know and I know what you mean. But DIN does not have to be 300 bar to be 'real DIN', which is what I mean. Your statement 'not 300 bar so not true DIN' is simply not correct.

<snip>

If your a recreational diver you shouldn't even be worrying about a DIN valve, just get a Yolk setup and go have fun diving, it's what most people have and you wont have to carry all those extra adapters and tools like I do.

Here in the SEA and in US oriented places like Carribean, yes. But in Europe and e.g. Egypt DIN is the norm.

My own reg is DIN, simply the better system.

[commande]

Yes, I know and I know what you mean. But DIN does not have to be 300 bar to be 'real DIN', which is what I mean. Your statement 'not 300 bar so not true DIN' is simply not correct.

I am fairly certain that if you go back a few years before the hybrid DIN/yoke valves came about, the DIN only valves were generally had a 300 Bar operating pressure and the yoke ones were 200 bar. Heck, even the PADI open water video states DIN is for higher pressure. Thus only 300 bar 7 thread DIN valves are "true DIN." The rest are really just yoke valves that fit DIN regulators if you remove the insert. They are not rated to 300B, thus can't be "true DIN". The whole point of DIN originally was to accommodate higher pressures in applications outside of scuba.

Din valves have been around for years and years, and were originally 200 Bar.

The converters etc. came along a lot later, way after the DIN valves.

Regarding the PADI video: made in the US without any knowledge about anything other than mainstream US diving.

You just agreed with everything that I said with exception of 300bar 7 thread DIN valves.... No worries though, not a knowledge contest... I'm sure your a very good diver and believe me PADI didn't invent diving, there are many other certifications agencies and most of the basic stuff for diving was created before the certification agencies even existed.

PADI, great market penetration and training at around 80% monopoly, they got the right formula. There are others though and they are just as good ... At the end of the day it's about the diving and not the fancy card you flash in front of people. I pull my cards when asked, which is rare since everyone already knows me that I dive with in Thailand, other than that I dive and appreciate everyone's experience and training. I even have the tendency to learn something new and hopefully share something of value with others.

Edited June 7, 2013 by commande

[snorkelador]

There are two main versions of DIN valves, which are 5 thread, G5/8" (rated to 232 bar) and 7 thread, G5/8" (rated to 300bar) outlet. There is also another version, which is supposed to be for EAN and has a M26 x 2 outlet thread, which means you would also need a regulator with this fitting, which is exactly the reasoning for that. If you operate commercially in Europe you need to follow this, normal divers can get away with just making sure they use only oxygen compatible equipment with EAN. The tank neck thread is another completely different story, but something really important when picking a valve for a tank, since just fitting is not enough by a long shot. Not going into any details here though.

They are all true DIN valves, as is any valve that meets the requirements. If you meet both requirements, for DIN and A-clamp fitting, then whoopeefuckingdoo!

Here is something that should be of interest for Nomadjoe: http://www.techduikshop.nl/shop/product_info.php?products_id=213%3FosCsid%3Dd8346918b11dc8c6f97669258d338c0e&language=uk

Edited June 7, 2013 by snorkelador

[PhuketdashScuba]

Yes,

I know and I know what you mean. But DIN does not have to be 300 bar to

be 'real DIN', which is what I mean. Your statement 'not 300 bar so not

true DIN' is simply not correct.

I am

fairly certain that if you go back a few years before the hybrid

DIN/yoke valves came about, the DIN only valves were generally had a 300

Bar operating pressure and the yoke ones were 200 bar. Heck, even the

PADI open water video states DIN is for higher pressure. Thus only 300

bar 7 thread DIN valves are "true DIN." The rest are really just yoke

valves that fit DIN regulators if you remove the insert. They are not

rated to 300B, thus can't be "true DIN". The whole point of DIN

originally was to accommodate higher pressures in applications outside

of scuba.

Din valves have been around for years and years, and were originally 200 Bar.

The converters etc. came along a lot later, way after the DIN valves.

Regarding the PADI video: made in the US without any knowledge about anything other than mainstream US diving.

You

just agreed with everything that I said with exception of 300bar 7

thread DIN valves.... No worries though, not a knowledge contest...

I'm sure your a very good diver and believe me PADI didn't invent

diving, there are many other certifications agencies and most of the

basic stuff for diving was created before the certification agencies

even existed.

PADI,

great market penetration and training at around 80% monopoly, they got

the right formula. There are others though and they are just as good ...

At the end of the day it's about the diving and not the fancy card you

flash in front of people. I pull my cards when asked, which is rare

since everyone already knows me that I dive with in Thailand, other than

that I dive and appreciate everyone's experience and training. I even

have the tendency to learn something new and hopefully share something

of value with others.

Yes, I know I agreed with you. Is that a problem? I even agree with the threads if you read my post correctly.

If you look at the post you'll see it was addressed to Joe, who did not agree with me, hence my reaction to his post.

[NomadJoe]

But none of this crap matters to the OP who sounds to be buying his first reg, isn't a tech diver, and will likely be diving mostly here in SEA, and thus should get a yoke style.

[commande]

But none of this crap matters to the OP who sounds to be buying his first reg, isn't a tech diver, and will likely be diving mostly here in SEA, and thus should get a yoke style.

Agreed...

[PhuketdashScuba]

But none of this crap matters to the OP who sounds to be buying his first reg, isn't a tech diver, and will likely be diving mostly here in SEA, and thus should get a yoke style.

I think it does matter, because it will give a much better background on which to make an informed decision.

I would still recommend a DIN, even for these waters and non technical diving. Agree though most people would not agree with my opinion on this.

[Simon1985]

But none of this crap matters to the OP who sounds to be buying his first reg, isn't a tech diver, and will likely be diving mostly here in SEA, and thus should get a yoke style.

Its got all too complicated for me. I decided to stick to snorkelling and have bought a new snorkel.

[Simon1985]

Only joking. Thanks for all the info guys its much appreciated.

[snorkelador]

But none of this crap matters to the OP who sounds to be buying his first reg, isn't a tech diver, and will likely be diving mostly here in SEA, and thus should get a yoke style.

Funny you should say that...

Had a sneaking suspicion you was trolling all along.