U S: Six Dead In Santa Monica Shooting Rampage

[Chicog]

But it happened in CALIFORNIA, which has some of the toughest gun laws in the entire United States! Can't keep a quitter from quitting, a loser from losing, or a madman from doing harm.

Correct, it needs to be Country-wide.

[Chicog]

Unfortunately, the reason it was included in the Bill of Rights seems more relevant today than at any time in recent history. For non-Americans to engage in debates regarding gun control in America is simply a waste of time and energy for all involved.

But nonetheless interesting, and since the 1st Amendment is all about free speech I'm sure you don't mind the subject being discussed.

[sstuff3]

Sad news. Heartfelt condolences to the families of the deceased.

Why is it that anytime a shooting happens in the US, it gets worldwide media attention and turns into an endless debate on gun control?? (Rhetorical question).

Gun control is not relevant to this or any other news story related to the use of guns. Furthermore, gun control in America is not the business of anyone except

the citizens of America. The Bill of Rights was written for a specific reason, should, and will be upheld, as this is the will of the majority of Americans.

Unfortunately, the reason it was included in the Bill of Rights seems more relevant today than at any time in recent history. For non-Americans to engage in debates regarding gun control in America is simply a waste of time and energy for all involved.

Didn't know the US has a copywright on orginal thought. So you are saying that if a non US citizen had an epiphany that contributed to policy regards gun control, leading to a reduction in gun crime, it would be rejected?

I doubt any opinion posted on a TV forum in Thailand will ever have any meaningful effect on legislation in any country, but by all means feel free to contribute what you wish.

My point was, and remains, that this story has nothing to do with gun control, just another sad story about an apparently disturbed individual intent on inflicting injury to other people.

[Ulysses G.]

Yes, I would feel safer in the UK than in the US. I have lived in one for many years and visited the other several times. Violent crime is not widespread in the UK as it seems to be in the US.

The violent crime rate in the UK is significantly higher than in the US. However, the murder rate is higher in America in certain high crime areas where drug gangs control the streets.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Ulysses G.

[rbrooks]

The speculation is starting in advance of clear information. Even the news reporters on the scene are confused about the detail.

CNN has said this morning:

1. According to a woman on the bus, the killer was of very white complexion.

2. The other person arrested is said 'to be of interest' and 'Asian in appearance'. No-one other than a few reporters has yet connected this person with the killer.

3. The gun is said to be an AR15.

However, given the present confusion, we don't know whether any of this is correct or what the background of the dead killer and the 'Asian' might be.

All that seems to be established publicly is that there has been yet another gun rampage with significant loss of life involving a long barrelled gun.

On a general note, the more legal guns there are around, the more illegal guns there will be. I can't understand why there is still so much support in the US for open gun laws amongst people who seem to have no compassion for the victims or their families.

The AR15 is one of the most common semi-automatic rifles in America. It's used for competition, sports shooting, target practice, and hunting. But it's only one of many semi-automatic rifles sold. But the media loves to demonize it because it looks like a fully-automatic M16. It isn't. An the media is simply fear-mongering.

Educate yourself: http://www.assaultweapon.info.

Also, gun advocates are generally individuals with conservative values: like the love of family. We have immense compassion for the victims of gun related crimes. We arm ourselves so we (and our families) do not become victims of gun related crimes. And I reiterate...since 1993 gun related homicide in the United States has decreased 49%.

I concur, we always have compassion and proper justice for the victims of gun related crimes unlike other countries where justice for gunmen can be based on money and status. Make no mistake we have problems with gun related homicides but we do not lead the pack worldwide, Thailand for example exceeds us in this category and it seems that weapons are banned but pretty common regardless. We have a proud history of civil rights that allows us certain freedoms like choice of religion, free speech, right to assemble, right to vote and right to keep and bear arms. Many of these simple freedoms are no longer available in many countries of the world especially the second amendment of the right to keep and bear arms. Personally I believe that the less control the government has on it's people the more freedoms you can enjoy. Guns never kill people but people do and they will find whatever weapon they can to accomplish their goal. Making weapons illegal for law abiding citizens will never prevent criminals or whackos from finding guns to kill people. I have a shotgun at home for defense in the house and feel quite secure at night. Just an opinion I could be wrong.

Edited June 8, 2013 by rbrooks

[visionchaser45]

But it happened in CALIFORNIA, which has some of the toughest gun laws in the entire United States!

Obviously not tough enough.

Yeah, nothing like that would ever happen in England. In England you would just get stabbed to death or, perhaps, bludgeoned to death.

[Scott]

I am wondering what OTHER factors are involved in places with a high rate of gun deaths. I would guess that there are a whole host of variables beside just the laws. I grew up in an area with very high ownership of guns and as I recall gun deaths were relatively low and certainly murder was low. There was the occasional hunting accident and suicides with guns were a favored method.

Since it is the cities that seem to have the most problem, what other factors figure into the murder rate? What is the ethnic make up of these areas? What is the average age? What is the unemployment rate? Is there a correlation with other types of crimes, such as burglary, rape, robbery, auto theft etc?

In this case, it sounds like a crazed person and like a few of the others who make the news, I don't know if there is much that can be done to identify them or stop them.

It's just speculation, but I am wondering if there is much research on the different variables involved in gun homicides.

[samran]

They could also buy them in Mexico. As I said, laws bind only the law abiding. Let's wait and get the facts, OK?

I thought that it was US guns being smuggled into Mexico.

Edited June 8, 2013 by samran

[samran]

Gun laws to be effective need to be FEDERAL. Duh. Thank you Australia for showing the way. Too bad the USA has become retarded in attempting such basic and helpful changes to save the lives of their OWN citizens.

The US is a republic of states. All powers not expressly given to the federal government in the constitution are reserved for the states. That's why laws vary state to state.

As for federal, it is bound by the constitution which demands that citizens be allowed to keep and bear arms. So are the states bound by that constitution.

This topic isn't about Australia.

Haha, gun laws in Australia are governed at state level. They just managed to get their crap together and bought laws into line.

As for refering to the the constitution. What a cop out! It isn't an infallible document. If they had the lobby groups they have today two centuries ago, I'm sure negro's would still be counted as 3/5 of a white person, given the argument used by NRA types that you can't dare strike out an antiquated piece of text written for different times,

[Ulysses G.]

I am wondering what OTHER factors are involved in places with a high rate of gun deaths. I would guess that there are a whole host of variables beside just the laws. I grew up in an area with very high ownership of guns and as I recall gun deaths were relatively low and certainly murder was low. There was the occasional hunting accident and suicides with guns were a favored method.

Since it is the cities that seem to have the most problem, what other factors figure into the murder rate? What is the ethnic make up of these areas? What is the average age? What is the unemployment rate? Is there a correlation with other types of crimes, such as burglary, rape, robbery, auto theft etc?

Most homicides in the U.S. are commited by young, African American men and most of their victims are also black. A huge percentage of these murders stem from the illegal drug trade. http://web.archive.org/web/20121019014646/http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

Edited June 8, 2013 by Ulysses G.

[samran]

I am wondering what OTHER factors are involved in places with a high rate of gun deaths. I would guess that there are a whole host of variables beside just the laws. I grew up in an area with very high ownership of guns and as I recall gun deaths were relatively low and certainly murder was low. There was the occasional hunting accident and suicides with guns were a favored method.

Since it is the cities that seem to have the most problem, what other factors figure into the murder rate? What is the ethnic make up of these areas? What is the average age? What is the unemployment rate? Is there a correlation with other types of crimes, such as burglary, rape, robbery, auto theft etc?

Most homicides in the U.S. are commited by young, African American men and most of their victims are also black. A huge percentage of these murders stem from the illegal drug trade. http://web.archive.org/web/20121019014646/http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

....and for whites, it is still three times the rate of Australia.

[Scott]

Thanks for the statistics and the link, UG. I will try to take a close look at it tomorrow.

[Ulysses G.]

I am wondering what OTHER factors are involved in places with a high rate of gun deaths. I would guess that there are a whole host of variables beside just the laws. I grew up in an area with very high ownership of guns and as I recall gun deaths were relatively low and certainly murder was low. There was the occasional hunting accident and suicides with guns were a favored method.

Since it is the cities that seem to have the most problem, what other factors figure into the murder rate? What is the ethnic make up of these areas? What is the average age? What is the unemployment rate? Is there a correlation with other types of crimes, such as burglary, rape, robbery, auto theft etc?

Most homicides in the U.S. are commited by young, African American men and most of their victims are also black. A huge percentage of these murders stem from the illegal drug trade. http://web.archive.org/web/20121019014646/http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

....and for whites, it is still three times the rate of Australia.

No. It is twice the rate of Australia. About the same as Belgium.

[Loptr]

Ok, I only read the first page, but it's obvious the direction this thread is going. Of course it's all the guns in the US. Over 300,000,000 of them and counting. Gun sales have set an all-time record since Mr Obama has been in office. Is it going to stop, no. Are there going to be more lunatics that commit crimes like this in the US, yes. All a part of the decline of western civilization. Won't be the first and definitely won't be the last.

On another note, gun laws in the UK didn't stop crazy terrorists from brutally murdering a lone soldier on the streets of London, now did it? The crazies had ample time to kill many more, but were making an ideological statement so limited the killing to one person. Guns or not, crazies will continue to kill by any means possible.

[Steely Dan]

I am wondering what OTHER factors are involved in places with a high rate of gun deaths. I would guess that there are a whole host of variables beside just the laws. I grew up in an area with very high ownership of guns and as I recall gun deaths were relatively low and certainly murder was low. There was the occasional hunting accident and suicides with guns were a favored method.

Since it is the cities that seem to have the most problem, what other factors figure into the murder rate? What is the ethnic make up of these areas? What is the average age? What is the unemployment rate? Is there a correlation with other types of crimes, such as burglary, rape, robbery, auto theft etc?

Most homicides in the U.S. are commited by young, African American men and most of their victims are also black. A huge percentage of these murders stem from the illegal drug trade. http://web.archive.org/web/20121019014646/http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

in which case surely, though it seems so obvious logic repels, if drugs were legalized surely that would make more of a difference to the murder rate by guns than actually banning all guns would. perhaps the DEA should be scrutinized instead of the NRA.

[bkk_mike]

California. Assault type weapons with high capacity (more than ten rounds) magazines are already illegal there. Of course laws don't stop criminals.

The police believe more than one person was involved. A rifle and a shotgun were heard. One is dead, another in custody.

Two guys plan this? I'll wait until I hear what their backgrounds are. At the least if they have a criminal history they aren't allowed to own guns. At the worst they could wind up with strange last names and associates.

I want the rest of the story.

California - the state with the "toughest" gun control laws in the US, where you actually have to RELOAD after shooting 10 people with an assault rifle.

Why do Americans not understand that this isn't what the rest of the planet regards as "tough" gun controls...?

[F430murci]

I am wondering what OTHER factors are involved in places with a high rate of gun deaths. I would guess that there are a whole host of variables beside just the laws. I grew up in an area with very high ownership of guns and as I recall gun deaths were relatively low and certainly murder was low. There was the occasional hunting accident and suicides with guns were a favored method.

Since it is the cities that seem to have the most problem, what other factors figure into the murder rate? What is the ethnic make up of these areas? What is the average age? What is the unemployment rate? Is there a correlation with other types of crimes, such as burglary, rape, robbery, auto theft etc?

In this case, it sounds like a crazed person and like a few of the others who make the news, I don't know if there is much that can be done to identify them or stop them.

It's just speculation, but I am wondering if there is much research on the different variables involved in gun homicides.

Exactly, everyone in Tennessee carries guns and look at crime in homicide rate in Memphis. Place is a <deleted> war zone. But, no one wants to look at underlying factors and common sense that might be inconsistent with intellectually dishonest postures.

In my area of Florida, no one has guns and no one carries guns. The murder rate is, I cannot even recall the last murder. I think we two or three one year and the only I remember was a sexual abuse beating death of a young female tourist by a horny teen boy loser. Never hear of anyone getting shot.

Edited June 8, 2013 by F430murci

[chuckd]

California. Assault type weapons with high capacity (more than ten rounds) magazines are already illegal there. Of course laws don't stop criminals.

The police believe more than one person was involved. A rifle and a shotgun were heard. One is dead, another in custody.

Two guys plan this? I'll wait until I hear what their backgrounds are. At the least if they have a criminal history they aren't allowed to own guns. At the worst they could wind up with strange last names and associates.

I want the rest of the story.

California - the state with the "toughest" gun control laws in the US, where you actually have to RELOAD after shooting 10 people with an assault rifle.

Why do Americans not understand that this isn't what the rest of the planet regards as "tough" gun controls...?

You have obviously never handled a clip loading weapon. You can reload a semi-automatic hand gun or long gun in two seconds, if you take your time.

Scott:

Here is another link where you can find out anything you want to know.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/crimestats

[NeverSure]

California. Assault type weapons with high capacity (more than ten rounds) magazines are already illegal there. Of course laws don't stop criminals.

The police believe more than one person was involved. A rifle and a shotgun were heard. One is dead, another in custody.

Two guys plan this? I'll wait until I hear what their backgrounds are. At the least if they have a criminal history they aren't allowed to own guns. At the worst they could wind up with strange last names and associates.

I want the rest of the story.

California - the state with the "toughest" gun control laws in the US, where you actually have to RELOAD after shooting 10 people with an assault rifle.

Why do Americans not understand that this isn't what the rest of the planet regards as "tough" gun controls...?

How about Americans do understand, and really don't care what the rest of the planet thinks?

America is the way Americans want it, as are other countries they way they want theirs. You really don't ever have to step foot in the US you know, if it's that important to you.

Americans are thinking long term. Hundreds of years. As for what one country thinks of another, I still believe I'll see the day when some Europeans will rue the day they gave up their guns as they allow terrorists to immigrate and out breed them like flies. I really do.

I believe the thrust of this subject could change mightily in my lifetime as I watch Europe.

[NeverSure]

California. Assault type weapons with high capacity (more than ten rounds) magazines are already illegal there. Of course laws don't stop criminals.

The police believe more than one person was involved. A rifle and a shotgun were heard. One is dead, another in custody.

Two guys plan this? I'll wait until I hear what their backgrounds are. At the least if they have a criminal history they aren't allowed to own guns. At the worst they could wind up with strange last names and associates.

I want the rest of the story.

California - the state with the "toughest" gun control laws in the US, where you actually have to RELOAD after shooting 10 people with an assault rifle.

Why do Americans not understand that this isn't what the rest of the planet regards as "tough" gun controls...?

You have obviously never handled a clip loading weapon. You can reload a semi-automatic hand gun or long gun in two seconds, if you take your time.

Scott:

Here is another link where you can find out anything you want to know.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/crimestats

An antique wheel gun (revolver) that's single action can make five or six hits in less than a second. There are speed loaders for double action revolvers that are just as fast as magazines are for semi-autos. These guys simply hold the trigger back and fan the hammer with the off hand.

It is known that most shootings occur at a distance of less than ten feet and that includes police shootings. It's not hard to fan 6 shots into someone at that distance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vl9FniemlE

[chuckd]

California. Assault type weapons with high capacity (more than ten rounds) magazines are already illegal there. Of course laws don't stop criminals.

The police believe more than one person was involved. A rifle and a shotgun were heard. One is dead, another in custody.

Two guys plan this? I'll wait until I hear what their backgrounds are. At the least if they have a criminal history they aren't allowed to own guns. At the worst they could wind up with strange last names and associates.

I want the rest of the story.

California - the state with the "toughest" gun control laws in the US, where you actually have to RELOAD after shooting 10 people with an assault rifle.

Why do Americans not understand that this isn't what the rest of the planet regards as "tough" gun controls...?

You have obviously never handled a clip loading weapon. You can reload a semi-automatic hand gun or long gun in two seconds, if you take your time.

Scott:

Here is another link where you can find out anything you want to know.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/crimestats

An antique wheel gun (revolver) that's single action can make five or six hits in less than a second. There are speed loaders for double action revolvers that are just as fast as magazines are for semi-autos. These guys simply hold the trigger back and fan the hammer with the off hand.

It is known that most shootings occur at a distance of less than ten feet and that includes police shootings. It's not hard to fan 6 shots into someone at that distance.

Some people must think when your clip is emptied, you remove your clip, load 10 more rounds into it and reload it into your weapon. They never seem to consider that it is practice to carry multiple clips. One or two second turnaround for reloading, so the size of the clip makes little to no difference in how many rounds can be fired. The 10 round limit law accomplishes nothing.

Good video. My bet is a gang banger would lose in a fast draw contest with that guy.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Scott

[F430murci]

California. Assault type weapons with high capacity (more than ten rounds) magazines are already illegal there. Of course laws don't stop criminals.

The police believe more than one person was involved. A rifle and a shotgun were heard. One is dead, another in custody.

Two guys plan this? I'll wait until I hear what their backgrounds are. At the least if they have a criminal history they aren't allowed to own guns. At the worst they could wind up with strange last names and associates.

I want the rest of the story.

California - the state with the "toughest" gun control laws in the US, where you actually have to RELOAD after shooting 10 people with an assault rifle.

Why do Americans not understand that this isn't what the rest of the planet regards as "tough" gun controls...?

How about Americans do understand, and really don't care what the rest of the planet thinks?

America is the way Americans want it, as are other countries they way they want theirs. You really don't ever have to step foot in the US you know, if it's that important to you.

Americans are thinking long term. Hundreds of years. As for what one country thinks of another, I still believe I'll see the day when some Europeans will rue the day they gave up their guns as they allow terrorists to immigrate and out breed them like flies. I really do.

I believe the thrust of this subject could change mightily in my lifetime as I watch Europe.

Sad way to live . . . alarms, dogs, flood lights and arsenal. I never lock my doors and feel at ease.

I, however, feel sorry for people just driving down the road getting picked off by spray from an AR15 owner hiding behind some perceived right to be a maladjusted, paranoid maniac.

Paranoids cannot reason. Gorgeous day in Destin so I leave the gun stuff to you guys. Exercise in futility fostering negative emotions. Life too short. Too much to enjoy. Prefer to live happy than plan for the take over or Alien invasion.

[sustento]

I'd like to ask the pro-gun lobby a serious question. Assuming that the number of guns in the USA remains as as it is and the 2nd Amendment remains unamended what would YOU do to decrease the rate at which these random shootings occur? What realistic and practical steps would you take to attempt to stop them happening?

[jbrain]

Sadly, despite being armed most people who commit massacres in the US do so unchallenged. Love the right to bear arms but nowhere to be seen when someone shoots up the mall.

Most Americans don't carry a gun. By far most don't. Many have a license to carry one simply because it's handy for transporting. All of the laws about how you can carry a gun, even in your car change if you have a license. This is handy when going hunting or fishing or even to the range.

Most Americans who have a gun have it to protect their homes. They use them about 2.5 million times a year, and about 200,000 women avoid being sexually abused each year by having a gun. Usually no shots are fired. The mere presence of the gun is the persuader.

Guns are used 80 times as often for defense as they are for committing crimes. Please read this.

Hold on a minute, if guns are used 80 times more for defense, doesn't that actually mean that at the same time the counter party was probably using a gun to commit a crime ?

[JDGRUEN]

I'd like to ask the pro-gun lobby a serious question. Assuming that the number of guns in the USA remains as as it is and the 2nd Amendment remains unamended what would YOU do to decrease the rate at which these random shootings occur? What realistic and practical steps would you take to attempt to stop them happening?

Remove legal barriers contained in many state laws that prevent the long term commitment and confinement of mentally disturbed people. Considering that the recent shooters of the last ten years have all had track records of mental instability documented PRIOR to the shooting - seems like a good place to start. And - work on a real screening program to cut short jihadies before they get to their mission target - whether as a part of an international plan or whether lone wolf jihadies ... Remove political correctness from both these efforts.

[NeverSure]

I'd like to ask the pro-gun lobby a serious question. Assuming that the number of guns in the USA remains as as it is and the 2nd Amendment remains unamended what would YOU do to decrease the rate at which these random shootings occur? What realistic and practical steps would you take to attempt to stop them happening?

There really aren't that many random shootings. It's just that they make the news, especially on this forum. The chances of any US citizen ever witnessing such an event or of being shot are much less than being hit by lightning. It is a huge country with a very large population.

There are ten times as many gun murders in Thailand per capita as there are in the US. What would you do about that? The UK is more violent than the US without so many guns. What would you do about that?

Here's the deal, one more time. I am willing to take risk in exchange for my freedom. You don't understand me apparently, and I don't understand you, apparently. If you aren't willing to take a very small percentage risk in exchange for the freedom to defend yourself and your friends and family, then we will never understand each other.

Also, as for what I'd do about it, do you know that gun murders in the US today are just 1/2 what they were 20 years ago? That despite the fact that gun ownership per person and the sheer number of guns has skyrocketed? How do you explain that? I believe it's because when honest citizens arm themselves, the bad guys have something to worry about. They'd better worry if they break into my house.

These threads run on and on. People from the UK seem to think Americans are crazy for wanting guns. I think they are crazy for giving up their guns as their population becomes more and more infiltrated with terrorists. I think Australians are crazy for giving up their guns in a world where their gangs are gaining in strength and have guns. We don't understand each other.

I use "crazy" in a loose sense of not understanding how each other thinks. I don't really think they are literally crazy. I just think they made the wrong choice.

I predict that when terrorists and drug gangs are running amok and killing innocent people in other countries, that those people will not only want, but will need their guns back. Life is easy right now but it hasn't always been and it won't always be. The police are already unable to arrive and protect you.

I know you don't understand me. I'm fine with that.

[JDGRUEN]

California Shooter -- Arabic family name Zawahiri

http://www.latimes.c...0,4640970.story

Firefighters later found the bodies of two men inside the house. Police

sources, who requested anonymity because of the ongoing investigation,
said the men were Samir Zawahri, 55, the owner of the house, and one of
his adult sons. A second son is suspected of being the shooter, the
sources said.

[Cardiff1963]

But it happened in CALIFORNIA, which has some of the toughest gun laws in the entire United States! Can't keep a quitter from quitting, a loser from losing, or a madman from doing harm.

Easy to stop a madman doing harm with guns. Ban all guns, lock people up for 10 years who violate the ban. Free up prison space by releasing people locked up for marijuana use and problem solved. Given a choice between being locked up in a room full of pot heads or gun carriers, I know where I would rather be.

[sustento]

I'd like to ask the pro-gun lobby a serious question. Assuming that the number of guns in the USA remains as as it is and the 2nd Amendment remains unamended what would YOU do to decrease the rate at which these random shootings occur? What realistic and practical steps would you take to attempt to stop them happening?

Remove legal barriers contained in many state laws that prevent the long term commitment and confinement of mentally disturbed people. Considering that the recent shooters of the last ten years have all had track records of mental instability documented PRIOR to the shooting - seems like a good place to start. And - work on a real screening program to cut short jihadies before they get to their mission target - whether as a part of an international plan or whether lone wolf jihadies ... Remove political correctness from both these efforts.

Are you not able to confine people with mental health problems who are dangerous to themselves and others in the US?

[Cardiff1963]

I'd like to ask the pro-gun lobby a serious question. Assuming that the number of guns in the USA remains as as it is and the 2nd Amendment remains unamended what would YOU do to decrease the rate at which these random shootings occur? What realistic and practical steps would you take to attempt to stop them happening?

There really aren't that many random shootings. It's just that they make the news, especially on this forum. The chances of any US citizen ever witnessing such an event or of being shot are much less than being hit by lightning. It is a huge country with a very large population.

There are ten times as many gun murders in Thailand per capita as there are in the US. What would you do about that? The UK is more violent than the US without so many guns. What would you do about that?

Here's the deal, one more time. I am willing to take risk in exchange for my freedom. You don't understand me apparently, and I don't understand you, apparently. If you aren't willing to take a very small percentage risk in exchange for the freedom to defend yourself and your friends and family, then we will never understand each other.

Also, as for what I'd do about it, do you know that gun murders in the US today are just 1/2 what they were 20 years ago? That despite the fact that gun ownership per person and the sheer number of guns has skyrocketed? How do you explain that? I believe it's because when honest citizens arm themselves, the bad guys have something to worry about. They'd better worry if they break into my house.

These threads run on and on. People from the UK seem to think Americans are crazy for wanting guns. I think they are crazy for giving up their guns as their population becomes more and more infiltrated with terrorists. I think Australians are crazy for giving up their guns in a world where their gangs are gaining in strength and have guns. We don't understand each other.

I use "crazy" in a loose sense of not understanding how each other thinks. I don't really think they are literally crazy. I just think they made the wrong choice.

I predict that when terrorists and drug gangs are running amok and killing innocent people in other countries, that those people will not only want, but will need their guns back. Life is easy right now but it hasn't always been and it won't always be. The police are already unable to arrive and protect you.

I know you don't understand me. I'm fine with that.

Just to pick up one of your points, as the UK is more violent than the UK, how would you explain the massive disparity in murder rate per capita.