'White Mask' Guards Seen Trying To Hit Redshirts With Iron Bars

[metisdead]

Now that we've covered how complex journalism is, can we get back on topic? From this point on, discussion of journalism and it's complexity will be removed, I may even go back and delete a bunch of posts for being off topic as leaving them there will continue the risk of further off topic discussions.

[rubl]

So, i am sorry - and i do point that out in talks with Yellow Shirts as well - i think that only to dislike Thaksin without offering a coherent future vision for Thailand other than resorting into ultra-royalism and ultra-nationalism is simply not enough to pass the grade.

To like Thaksin to return without offering a coherent future vision for Thailand is simply not enough to pass the grade.

Anyway, white mask guards allegedly hit red-shirts on motorcy's but failed to cause injury. Unlike the CM event no clear pictures or a video clip. Pity really. Such evidence would help make the white mask less liked. On the other hand maybe the peaceful red-shirts were less peaceful as well?

Edited June 18, 2013 by rubl

[nicknostitz]

So, i am sorry - and i do point that out in talks with Yellow Shirts as well - i think that only to dislike Thaksin without offering a coherent future vision for Thailand other than resorting into ultra-royalism and ultra-nationalism is simply not enough to pass the grade.

To like Thaksin to return without offering a coherent future vision for Thailand is simply not enough to pass the grade.

Anyway, white mask guards allegedly hit red-shirts on motorcy's but failed to cause injury. Unlike the CM event no clear pictures or a video clip. Pity really. Such evidence would help make the white mask less liked. On the other hand maybe the peaceful red-shirts were less peaceful as well?

Well. The red Shirts have offered a coherent future vision for Thailand beyond the return of Thaksin. If you choose to ignore to educate yourself about that, i simply can't help you.

The Red Shirt group on Sunday only held a small event in which pictures of white masks, Suthep, Abhisit and Chaiwat Sinsuwong were symbolically burned over a makeshift coffin, and moved away at 14.00 towards Chidlom when police asked them as the white mask group prepared to march towards the national arts and culture center. So yes, this group was peaceful.

Edited June 18, 2013 by nicknostitz

[rubl]

So, i am sorry - and i do point that out in talks with Yellow Shirts as well - i think that only to dislike Thaksin without offering a coherent future vision for Thailand other than resorting into ultra-royalism and ultra-nationalism is simply not enough to pass the grade.

To like Thaksin to return without offering a coherent future vision for Thailand is simply not enough to pass the grade.

Anyway, white mask guards allegedly hit red-shirts on motorcy's but failed to cause injury. Unlike the CM event no clear pictures or a video clip. Pity really. Such evidence would help make the white mask less liked. On the other hand maybe the peaceful red-shirts were less peaceful as well?

Well. The red Shirts have offered a coherent future vision for Thailand beyond the return for Thaksin. If you choose to ignore to educate yourself about that, i simply can't help you.

The Red Shirt group in Sunday only held a small event in which pictures of white masks, Suthep, Abhisit and Chaiwat Sinsuwong were symbolically burned over a makeshift coffin, and moved away at 14.00 towards Chidlom when police asked them as the white mask group prepared to march towards the national arts and culture center. So yes, this group was peaceful.

I must admit I didn't sign up for a Red School for Democracy yet, is there one in Bangkok?

The symbolically burning along Ratchaprasong by red-shirts may have been peaceful, but their small number may have had something to do with it as well. Anyway I was asking about the red-shirt motorcy chaps. Their expected arrival caused some white mask guards to wake up. Why was that? Any pictures / video of these events would help more in explaining certain behaviour and (possibly) condemn it.

[nicknostitz]

I must admit I didn't sign up for a Red School for Democracy yet, is there one in Bangkok?

The symbolically burning along Ratchaprasong by red-shirts may have been peaceful, but their small number may have had something to do with it as well. Anyway I was asking about the red-shirt motorcy chaps. Their expected arrival caused some white mask guards to wake up. Why was that? Any pictures / video of these events would help more in explaining certain behaviour and (possibly) condemn it.

Just looking at the UDD's English language website and reading their articles might be of some help to you in finding out what their political positions are.

The white mask people know all along that the Red Shirts were there for one hour, some of them stood on the opposite side of the Red Shirts as well (while the mass of the white mask people were at the back end of central world, opposite of the Big C.

It may sound difficult for you, but you may have to learn to accept that not just the Red Shirts on occasion attack their opponents, but also the Yellow Shirts (or white mask people, or whatever other name they have given themselves).

And as i explained already, unless someone took a video and will post it on youtube, you may have to live without it as apparently only the Khaosod reporter was close and quick enough to witness it and have at least some images. Such minor incidents of violence are most of the time over very quickly.

Edited June 18, 2013 by nicknostitz

[rubl]

I must admit I didn't sign up for a Red School for Democracy yet, is there one in Bangkok?

The symbolically burning along Ratchaprasong by red-shirts may have been peaceful, but their small number may have had something to do with it as well. Anyway I was asking about the red-shirt motorcy chaps. Their expected arrival caused some white mask guards to wake up. Why was that? Any pictures / video of these events would help more in explaining certain behaviour and (possibly) condemn it.

Just looking at the UDD's English language website and reading their articles might be of some help to you in finding out what their political positions are.

The white mask people know all along that the Red Shirts were there for one hour, some of them stood on the opposite side of the Red Shirts as well (while the mass of the white mask people were at the back end of central world, opposite of the Big C.

It may sound difficult for you, but you may have to learn to accept that not just the Red Shirts on occasion attack their opponents, but also the Yellow Shirts (or white mask people, or whatever other name they have given themselves).

And as i explained already, unless someone took a video and will post it on youtube, you may have to live without it as apparently only the Khaosod reporter was close and quick enough to witness it and have at least some images. Such minor incidents of violence are most of the time over very quickly.

Sorry to get off topic a bit, but I was wondering about a vision of red-shirts without Thaksin. I don't need a link to a UDD website as long as we have a good dozen UDD leaders as (Thaksin thinks) Pheu Thai (acts) party list MPs.

BTW one of two websites listed in the UDD wiki page still gives me a http://w3.mict.go.th/

[nicknostitz]

Sorry to get off topic a bit, but I was wondering about a vision of red-shirts without Thaksin. I don't need a link to a UDD website as long as we have a good dozen UDD leaders as (Thaksin thinks) Pheu Thai (acts) party list MPs.

BTW one of two websites listed in the UDD wiki page still gives me a http://w3.mict.go.th/

What on earth are you trying to say here?

You wonder what the Red Shirt's political vision is, but don't want to read their website, because UDD leaders are PT party list MP's?

Here is the link anyhow, for the people that may would like to have a look at what the political positions of the UDD are:

http://thairedshirts.org/

[rubl]

Sorry to get off topic a bit, but I was wondering about a vision of red-shirts without Thaksin. I don't need a link to a UDD website as long as we have a good dozen UDD leaders as (Thaksin thinks) Pheu Thai (acts) party list MPs.

BTW one of two websites listed in the UDD wiki page still gives me a http://w3.mict.go.th/

What on earth are you trying to say here?

You wonder what the Red Shirt's political vision is, but don't want to read their website, because UDD leaders are PT party list MP's?

Here is the link anyhow, for the people that may would like to have a look at what the political positions of the UDD are:

http://thairedshirts.org/

"In May 2013, “Look Back and Gaze Forward for Democracy” show (broadcast on Asia Update Channel every Friday – Saturday from 21:00pm – 22:00pm), Prof.TidaTavonsate together with Prof.JarunDittapichai, Pakdee Tanapura and Dr. WengTojirakarn announced the current policy of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) to reach out to the world."

http://thairedshirts.org/2013/05/18/foreign-strategy-of-the-udd/

[waza]

Sorry to get off topic a bit, but I was wondering about a vision of red-shirts without Thaksin. I don't need a link to a UDD website as long as we have a good dozen UDD leaders as (Thaksin thinks) Pheu Thai (acts) party list MPs.

BTW one of two websites listed in the UDD wiki page still gives me a http://w3.mict.go.th/

What on earth are you trying to say here?

You wonder what the Red Shirt's political vision is, but don't want to read their website, because UDD leaders are PT party list MP's?

Here is the link anyhow, for the people that may would like to have a look at what the political positions of the UDD are:

http://thairedshirts.org/

"In May 2013, “Look Back and Gaze Forward for Democracy” show (broadcast on Asia Update Channel every Friday – Saturday from 21:00pm – 22:00pm), Prof.TidaTavonsate together with Prof.JarunDittapichai, Pakdee Tanapura and Dr. WengTojirakarn announced the current policy of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) to reach out to the world."

http://thairedshirts.org/2013/05/18/foreign-strategy-of-the-udd/

the UDD Mission statement:-

Mission:

1. Achieving the goal of establishing a genuine democracy that has the King as our Head of State, with political power belonging exclusively to the people. We reject any attempt, past or future, at using the monarchy to silence dissent or advance a particular agenda.
2. Dissolving the 2007 Constitution and restoring the 1997 Constitution, which may then be amended through a transparent, consultative, and democratic process...
3. Bringing Thais together in an effort to solve our political and socio-economic problems, recognising that such efforts must stem from the power of the people...
4. Implementing the rule of law, due process and a system of equal justice for all, free of any obstructions or double-standards.
5. Uniting all Thais who love democracy, equality, and equal justice within all facets of society, in an effort to deconstruct and move beyond the Amartyatippatai (Aristocracy) system..
6. Using exclusively non-violent means to achieve these objectives.

One wonders how the reds explains the cognitive dissonance between their stated missions statement and their actions.

Edited June 18, 2013 by waza

[nicknostitz]

the UDD Mission statement:-

Mission:

1. Achieving the goal of establishing a genuine democracy that has the King as our Head of State, with political power belonging exclusively to the people. We reject any attempt, past or future, at using the monarchy to silence dissent or advance a particular agenda.
2. Dissolving the 2007 Constitution and restoring the 1997 Constitution, which may then be amended through a transparent, consultative, and democratic process...
3. Bringing Thais together in an effort to solve our political and socio-economic problems, recognising that such efforts must stem from the power of the people...
4. Implementing the rule of law, due process and a system of equal justice for all, free of any obstructions or double-standards.
5. Uniting all Thais who love democracy, equality, and equal justice within all facets of society, in an effort to deconstruct and move beyond the Amartyatippatai (Aristocracy) system..
6. Using exclusively non-violent means to achieve these objectives.

One wonders how the reds explains the cognitive dissonance between their stated missions statement and their actions.

At least we are one step further here - we can finally now agree upon that the UDD has indeed a political vision beyond the mere return of Thaksin, even if it does not always live up to it. But then, who does?

The next step would be now to acknowledge that outside of the UDD there are other Red Shirt groups, who for one or the other reason cannot be part of the UDD, and not under the UDD's authority, be that because they may not want to adhere to point 6, or some other point of that list.

And than we can maybe finally establish, hopefully, that the Red Shirts are a legitimate social mass movement. Which is completely besides the point of agreeing or disagreeing with the Red Shirts' aims and vision for Thailand.

Edited June 18, 2013 by nicknostitz

[rubl]

The simple switch from red-shirts to UDD and back is interesting especially with a group having moved to 'Thaksin masks only' rather than feeling strongly for him, but the topic is 'white mask guards'

Still no further details on the assault on very innocent red-shirts driving towards and past a white mask protest in order to reach their red-shirt comrades who were protesting the protest on the other side of the road. Somehow I feel this affront to red-shirt safety is being ignored by all. I would almost suspect Dept. PM Pol. Captain Chalerm and his internet snooping unit to prevent us from knowing too much. Of course, the lack of further details could just be coincidence.

[Thai at Heart]

I am not a journalist, a political scientist, or a dumbass.

So the white masks just sprung out of nowhere on pure social and political principal.

Wow. Thailand. The source of the most original, creative, self determining electorate.

Or. It's manipulated by some guys who have some media savvy trying to refocus an anti government group to something that is recognisable by the international media.

I go with the freedom fighting altruistic students who just discovered this mask. These Thai deliverers of freedom and democracy.

I can't wait.

Duh. Pass me a beer.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[rubl]

Totally off topic by now I fear, but

""Or. It's manipulated by some guys who have some media savvy trying to refocus an anti government group to something that is recognisable by the international media.""

reminds me ofthe English language banner 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists' and Jatuporn in his Ghandi Tshirt.

[nicknostitz]

The simple switch from red-shirts to UDD and back is interesting especially with a group having moved to 'Thaksin masks only' rather than feeling strongly for him, but the topic is 'white mask guards'

Still no further details on the assault on very innocent red-shirts driving towards and past a white mask protest in order to reach their red-shirt comrades who were protesting the protest on the other side of the road. Somehow I feel this affront to red-shirt safety is being ignored by all. I would almost suspect Dept. PM Pol. Captain Chalerm and his internet snooping unit to prevent us from knowing too much. Of course, the lack of further details could just be coincidence.

You are quite a number - after switching the topic into UDD ideology in the first place, now, when you run out of arguments (after a rather incoherent post), you complain that this suddenly isn't the topic.

And now you desperately try to somehow blame this incident on the Red Shirts that were attacked, which, i am sorry is quite disingenuous, especially given your very strong stand whenever it comes to Red Shirt initiated violence. But of course you would not be "biased"...

I think you should stop it now.

I am.

Good night.

[Thai at Heart]

Totally off topic by now I fear, but

""Or. It's manipulated by some guys who have some media savvy trying to refocus an anti government group to something that is recognisable by the international media.""

reminds me ofthe English language banner 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists' and Jatuporn in his Ghandi Tshirt.

It's not that original, but it doesn't matter if it gets somchai rich family up country to have the balls to protest up country in isaan.

[oceanview]

Sorry to get off topic a bit, but I was wondering about a vision of red-shirts without Thaksin. I don't need a link to a UDD website as long as we have a good dozen UDD leaders as (Thaksin thinks) Pheu Thai (acts) party list MPs.

BTW one of two websites listed in the UDD wiki page still gives me a http://w3.mict.go.th/

What on earth are you trying to say here?

You wonder what the Red Shirt's political vision is, but don't want to read their website, because UDD leaders are PT party list MP's?

Here is the link anyhow, for the people that may would like to have a look at what the political positions of the UDD are:

http://thairedshirts.org/

"In May 2013, “Look Back and Gaze Forward for Democracy” show (broadcast on Asia Update Channel every Friday – Saturday from 21:00pm – 22:00pm), Prof.TidaTavonsate together with Prof.JarunDittapichai, Pakdee Tanapura and Dr. WengTojirakarn announced the current policy of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) to reach out to the world."

http://thairedshirts.org/2013/05/18/foreign-strategy-of-the-udd/

the UDD Mission statement:-

Mission:

1. Achieving the goal of establishing a genuine democracy that has the King as our Head of State, with political power belonging exclusively to the people. We reject any attempt, past or future, at using the monarchy to silence dissent or advance a particular agenda.
2. Dissolving the 2007 Constitution and restoring the 1997 Constitution, which may then be amended through a transparent, consultative, and democratic process...
3. Bringing Thais together in an effort to solve our political and socio-economic problems, recognising that such efforts must stem from the power of the people...
4. Implementing the rule of law, due process and a system of equal justice for all, free of any obstructions or double-standards.
5. Uniting all Thais who love democracy, equality, and equal justice within all facets of society, in an effort to deconstruct and move beyond the Amartyatippatai (Aristocracy) system..
6. Using exclusively non-violent means to achieve these objectives.

One wonders how the reds explains the cognitive dissonance between their stated missions statement and their actions.

Absolutely the disconnect is so strong. No shortage of reds that are anti-monarchy and also no shortage of reds that are violent.

The laughable description of the above mishmash as that of a "legitimate social mass movement" is stretched truth beyond belief.

The attempt to establish plausible deniability of the UDD of other reds doesn't wash as there's been no effort to denounce the anti-monarchy reds and the violent reds. A truly legitimate movement would remove those elements, bar their participation from red events, and assist authorities with their apprehension and prosecuting. Instead, none of that happened and those reds were supported and assisted.

The feeble whitewash doesn't wash.

Edited June 18, 2013 by oceanview

[rubl]

The simple switch from red-shirts to UDD and back is interesting especially with a group having moved to 'Thaksin masks only' rather than feeling strongly for him, but the topic is 'white mask guards'

Still no further details on the assault on very innocent red-shirts driving towards and past a white mask protest in order to reach their red-shirt comrades who were protesting the protest on the other side of the road. Somehow I feel this affront to red-shirt safety is being ignored by all. I would almost suspect Dept. PM Pol. Captain Chalerm and his internet snooping unit to prevent us from knowing too much. Of course, the lack of further details could just be coincidence.

You are quite a number - after switching the topic into UDD ideology in the first place, now, when you run out of arguments (after a rather incoherent post), you complain that this suddenly isn't the topic.

And now you desperately try to somehow blame this incident on the Red Shirts that were attacked, which, i am sorry is quite disingenuous, especially given your very strong stand whenever it comes to Red Shirt initiated violence. But of course you would not be "biased"...

I think you should stop it now.

I am.

Good night.

My dear Nick, if you care to check you'll see I wrote somethink like if the red-shirts distanced themselves from UDD leaders and Thaksin I'd get a red-shirt and join them. You muddled the field saying red-shirts evolved past Thaksin, knew Pheu Thai MPs didn't like them and here's the red-shirt philosophy which just happens to be the UDD website with UDD leader quotes, some of them obviously working from the inside as Pheu Thai MPs or even Dept. Ministers.

As for the on topic alleged attack, we have some photo's with 'pink shirts', a KhaoSod article but no further news on the alleged red-shirt motorcy's which happened to pass an opponent protest to the point white mask guards got a phone message they were coming. If you do not like me saying this, tough luck. My opinion.

As for bias, remember you wrote 'happened to bump into red-shirt militants in the night, who only friendly asked not to make photo's, really decent of them with the army being more insolent in asking'?

This topic of 'white mask guards' has no follow up in any newspaper, whereas red-shirt attacks on white masks and Democrat parties are clearly documented with video clips. Clearly a case of media bias, orchestration or just so obvious as to be unescapable?

[rubl]

Totally off topic by now I fear, but

""Or. It's manipulated by some guys who have some media savvy trying to refocus an anti government group to something that is recognisable by the international media.""

reminds me ofthe English language banner 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists' and Jatuporn in his Ghandi Tshirt.

It's not that original, but it doesn't matter if it gets somchai rich family up country to have the balls to protest up country in isaan.

I may have missed something here. A 'Somchai rich family' as you so objectively describe, will probably not be roused to protest because of an English language slogan or a Tshirt with some Indian depicted. Somtam, Lao Khao, LucThung music and pictures of Thaksin might do it though, plus free transportation to Bangkok of course.

[yoshiwara]

Absolutely the disconnect is so strong. No shortage of reds that are anti-monarchy and also no shortage of reds that are violent.

The laughable description of the above mishmash as that of a "legitimate social mass movement" is stretched truth beyond belief.

The attempt to establish plausible deniability of the UDD of other reds doesn't wash as there's been no effort to denounce the anti-monarchy reds and the violent reds. A truly legitimate movement would remove those elements, bar their participation from red events, and assist authorities with their apprehension and prosecuting. Instead, none of that happened and those reds were supported and assisted.

The feeble whitewash doesn't wash.

Only someone with stars in their eyes would describe the reds as a "legitimate social mass movement" whatever that means. The description itself is feeble and has no class content. And that is deliberate. Much easier to defend wishy-washy politics. What we have here my friends is just a more grandiose version of a political tourist with assumed left-wing pretensions on display. Edited June 18, 2013 by yoshiwara

[Thai at Heart]

Totally off topic by now I fear, but

""Or. It's manipulated by some guys who have some media savvy trying to refocus an anti government group to something that is recognisable by the international media.""

reminds me ofthe English language banner 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists' and Jatuporn in his Ghandi Tshirt.

It's not that original, but it doesn't matter if it gets somchai rich family up country to have the balls to protest up country in isaan.

I may have missed something here. A 'Somchai rich family' as you so objectively describe, will probably not be roused to protest because of an English language slogan or a Tshirt with some Indian depicted. Somtam, Lao Khao, LucThung music and pictures of Thaksin might do it though, plus free transportation to Bangkok of course.

If a mask allows them to get involved, it's a useful tool. Edited June 19, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[Jasun]

Still waiting for the red masks to come out.

[waza]

Still waiting for the red masks to come out.

Like Nick said, the only thing keeping the redshirts together is Thaksin, without him they would fracture into slinter groups with differing agendas and methods.

[nicknostitz]

Still waiting for the red masks to come out.

Like Nick said, the only thing keeping the redshirts together is Thaksin, without him they would fracture into slinter groups with differing agendas and methods.

I have not said that.

Thanks for being misquoted.

Quite on the opposite - the only thing that keeps the assorted groups on the yellow side together is Thaksin's existence, or better - their hatred towards Thaksin, while on structural issues they have never been able to develop common goals beyond ultra-royalist and extreme nationalist positions.

The Red Shirts have beyond Thaksin a common vision on the future of Thailand (such as a clear separation between the institutions, a military under control of the parliament, ultimate political power in the hand of the people, etc). This keeps the different Red Shirt groups unified, as there are also minority Red Shirt groups which are not pro-Thaksin, but only support him structurally - in the sense that he came to power through elections. That is how you have people that were before the 2006 coup Thaksin opponents who became after the coups Red Shirts. Even the inventor of the color red as a symbolic color for the Red Shirts - Sombat Boonngamanong - was before the coup opposed to Thaksin.

The inability of reaching common ground on structural questions has always been the biggest weakness of the yellow side. That is why whenever they reached their goal of having defeated their opponents, they quite immediately afterwards splintered. This occurred after the 2006 coup, then, after coming together again in 2008 again in 2009, when the PAD formed their own party. They briefly somehow came together during the 2010 protests, only to completely fall apart in late 2010 and during the first half of 2011 where the PAD and the Patriot's network protested against the Abhisit government.

Since Yingluck's elections there were several failed attempts to come together again. This one now - with the white masks and the groups camping out at Sanam Luang is the forth attempt.

While you have also infighting in the UDD and with the free Red Shirt groups, this is more over strategical ("daeng patiwat" vs "daeng patiroop", for example), tactical (for example between UDD policy not to disrupt their opponents rallies, and groups such as Gotee's, who have on several occasions disturbed rallies) and personal issues (such as the Kwanchai - Tida conflict), but much less so over their overall ideologies, which keeps them far more unified than the yellow groups are.

[rubl]

Getting somewhaat off topic, but:

"The Red Shirts have beyond Thaksin a common vision on the future of Thailand"

As I was pointer to the red-shirt site which happens to be the UDD site which quotes Dr. weng a.o., may I quote him as well?

""Come out and launch a political fight to eradicate the Democrat Party from the Thai political platform. The Democrats have breached parliamentary regulations such as defying Parliament President Somsak Kiatsura-nont during the House meeting and taking his chair away. Such behaviour is tantamount to destroying democracy and the Constitution," Weng said on the stage at the "Pheu Thai, the Truth for Democracy" event."
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/563152-remove-the-democrats-reds-told/

May be this topic should be closed as no further information has been forthcoming on the incident which saw white shirt guards get sticks to 'welcome' red-shirt motorcy's just happen to pass their way. Allegedly that is.