Remnants of war

[boosta]

Don't think this falls outside the TV guidelines, if so apologies in advance and mods feel free to delete.

Just had a very interesting historical discussion with a working girl, calls herself an orphan but in fact her family put her into care as a baby, her mum was a luk krung war baby, most likely in the biz herself as she thinks her biological dad was some sort of foreigner too - which makes her no more than 25% Thai genetically.

She grew up in an orphanage/school with around two thousand kids like this, she said most of them were descendants of US soldiers from the war, products of the sex industry, in many cases multi-generational like her.

She talked about the fact that they were always taught to be rabidly pro-American, which in her world-view is pretty mixed in with England Australia etc, and in her ideas of history WWII and Vietnam were also mixed together, as was the fact that America didn't believe in monarchy, she honestly didn't believe me that the US has never had a king.

One result of this upbringing is she viscerally hates the Japanese, lots of passed-down stories of the Japanese raping women and children, she chortled with glee about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This is apparently reinforced by their current reputation for being sadistic in their sexual habits. She's worked mostly in Patpong bars, and says that all the bars around there won't accept Japanese customers, that the girls kick them out and send them back to Thaniya (Soi Yipun) where they belong - where she has many friends working, but wouldn't do so herself. And of course the Japanese clubs return the favor, won't admit farang.

I asked her what if a mixed group of farang and Japanese were to "bie tiyo pooying" together and refused to be split up, segregated that way. She said they'd be sent off to Sukhumvit, which is the truly international industry area.

Just thought this might be of interest, comment away as you like, but relevant or contrasting stories would be most welcome.

Edited June 16, 2013 by boosta

[David48]

Interesting story and an interesting read.

For clarity, is the focus of your OP

... the frailties of the Thai Educational System

... an observation on Thai/Japan relationships as viewed through the eyes of a working lady or

... that the winners of war get to write history?

Still, an interesting observation but at odds with other stories where the Japanese are welcomed even maybe preferred under the 3-3-3 option.

.

[boosta]

Not all posts need to be assertion of opinions to be disputed, that mode of discussion over-dominates here IMO.

Just food for thought, and as you said, somewhat interesting viewpoints emerging from a little story, with a surprising one for me as well being the virulent anti-Japanese feeling among a couple of particular well-defined groups of working girls.

The preference you speak of among the more internationalist groups (represented here by the Sukhumvit crowd) I believe comes mainly from their willingness to spend more, and perhaps their being less work, at least when they stick to the standard menu.

You lost me on the 3-3-3 thing, assume not a reference to ternary mathematics.

I think the education issue's been well covered in other threads, and the fact that each country gives its own slant to history is a given and part of that.

Edited June 16, 2013 by boosta

[boosta]

I've had some people express doubt about my post, "the girls know nothing about history" or "they all prefer Japanese, will take anyone if they have money" etc.

even along the lines of "this is so wrong you must not even live in Thailand".

Well I found it surprising myself, out of fifteen years and talking to thousands of girls hadn't heard this POV before which is why I posted it.

I confirmed with the girl last night, she says the "orphan/school" that raised her had thousands of girls from specifically this background (children of foreigners and BGs whose mothers chose/had to give them up, often multi-generational) and they got their ideas from the people that ran the place, which were all associated with the ex-Vietnam Americans, so that's where they got their teaching and attitudes about regional history.

Also she says just go down to Patpong yourself if you doubt it - apparently many of them were raised in institutions like this - and do a survey yourself amongst the girls how many would go with Japanese and she says you'll see for yourself.

And regarding the "they'll go with anyone with money" comment, this really goes against my experience, my impression is that even if a TBG is hungry, she won't go with a guy that makes her feel bad about herself, they'd rather starve than lose too much face. That's why I love the scene here, unlike back home where it's true they'll usually take anyone.

I've seen some of the real beauties at high-volume places do so well they knock back 95% of the offers they get, probably have a string of guys throwing money at them for doing hardly anything.

Edited June 18, 2013 by boosta

[trainman34014]

Not all posts need to be assertion of opinions to be disputed, that mode of discussion over-dominates here IMO.

Just food for thought, and as you said, somewhat interesting viewpoints emerging from a little story, with a surprising one for me as well being the virulent anti-Japanese feeling among a couple of particular well-defined groups of working girls.

The preference you speak of among the more internationalist groups (represented here by the Sukhumvit crowd) I believe comes mainly from their willingness to spend more, and perhaps their being less work, at least when they stick to the standard menu.

You lost me on the 3-3-3 thing, assume not a reference to ternary mathematics.

I think the education issue's been well covered in other threads, and the fact that each country gives its own slant to history is a given and part of that.

3-3-3....Three inches, three minutes, three thousand Baht....Now do you get it?

[kikoman]

War has fails to bring out the best in a person and does not produce any nice guys, But the Japanese soldiers were very cruel to their Asian neighbors, the Koreans, the Chinese, etc.

As one poster stated the victor writes history Japan has denied all the cruel acts associated with its act of war, but you can not hide the "Rape of Nanking" in 1937 or of its cruelty to Allied POWs.

While Japan can not rewrite the war's history, It has failed to teach its own students the role Japan infamously played in that war.

To the people that experience that cruelty will never forget or forgive it.

I do not blame them!

Cheers:

[cpofc]

America didn't believe in the Monarchy? Somehow I think this girl is making a lot of things up of her own accord. Been watching too many Hollywood Movies and the History Channel. In fact it was America that actively helped revive the Thai Monarchy.

Thailand was seen as a 'Domino' that couldn't be allowed to fall to the advancing communists in Sth East Asia. In fact Thailand, Bangkok, was chosen as the Headquarters of SEATO. (the Asian equivalent of NATO)

I really find it difficult to believe she was taught to hate the Japs when at school in Thailand. it simply would not have been a subject on the curriculum.

I go back a long time in BKK, Patpong. To the VN War Days in fact. The simple fact was you never saw a Jap there because the Japs did not go there. Not in Patpong 1. They were close by though, when they later first established venues in Patpong 2. The Japs have always had their own areas and venues. it is their choice to do so, not anyone elses. Not just in places like Bangkok either.

Even in Manila, before and during the Martial Law when there was virtually no tourism, the Japs still came in by the bus load and had their own venues set aside for them and did not mix with other nationalities in the mainstream venues. And the Filippinos had greater cause to hate them more than most. The Rape of Manila was almost as bad as the Rape of Nanking. But as some Filippino friends told me at the time, they still loved, and took their money!

I think your girl may have been 'talking it up' in order to impress you with her 'knowlege'.

[boosta]

3-3-3....Three inches, three minutes, three thousand Baht....Now do you get it?

-

Hardly worth the trouble, but thanks.

[boosta]

America didn't believe in the Monarchy?

-

That came from me not her, she was asking why Thais prefer British education to American. I answered with my theory that since US kids are taught to be proud of our Revolution, democracy as opposed to kings and queens being old-fashioned irrelevant remnants etc - Thais don't want their kids to be taught those ideas thus prefer British.

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I really find it difficult to believe she was taught to hate the Japs when at school in Thailand.

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Never said taught in school, of course on curriculum. The caregivers in the orphanage were ex-partners and children of US vets, so passed on informally word of mouth their versions of history. Nothing to do with school learning.

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I go back a long time in BKK, Patpong. To the VN War Days in fact. The simple fact was you never saw a Jap there because the Japs did not go there.

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I agree, that's why I was surprised and hadn't come across this attitude myself. But apparently when they do they're told to go back to their area.

Anyway I'm not arguing for this myself, just reporting what she very genuinely believed to be true, as she said anyone can go down and ask around themselves, or get some Japanese friends and walk around and see what happens.

[dennisgb45]

I was here in the Vietnam War, stationed at Korat & Tahkli for one year in 1965/66. I can tell you this: The Thais hated the Japs more at that time than they do now. They were still bitter at the Japs for the atricties committed during WWII. Both the Korat & Tahkli Airbases were Jap airbases during WWII. So the people from those two communities had a lot of contact with the Japanese soldiers. Remember that was only 20 years after WWII and the parents of the bargirls remembered it well.

[JDGRUEN]

Relative to the Japanese occupation was the existence of the Seri Thai (Free Thai) movement which was a political and armed resistance to the Japanese fostered by the Allies in WWII. This is a subject unto itself where many Thai people were recruited and trained to resist the Japanese. It would seem this movement could have contributed to the attitude of the Thais. I have a friend named Tom who has documented much about the Seri Thai movement and locations in Isaan... see the link below.

http://isaan-live.com/free-thai-in-northeast-thailand/

[boosta]

I was here in the Vietnam War, stationed at Korat & Tahkli for one year in 1965/66. I can tell you this: The Thais hated the Japs more at that time than they do now. They were still bitter at the Japs for the atricties committed during WWII. Both the Korat & Tahkli Airbases were Jap airbases during WWII. So the people from those two communities had a lot of contact with the Japanese soldiers. Remember that was only 20 years after WWII and the parents of the bargirls remembered it well.

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And the staff at these orphanages were apparently from that sort of group, and passed on their knowledge and feelings to the kids - many of whom are now in the same biz.

I reckon a great basis for a film, either backdrop for fiction or a straight doco - probably not doable with Thai funding though 8-)

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Relative to the Japanese occupation was the existence of the Seri Thai (Free Thai) movement which was a political and armed resistance to the Japanese fostered by the Allies in WWII. This is a subject unto itself where many Thai people were recruited and trained to resist the Japanese. It would seem this movement could have contributed to the attitude of the Thais. I have a friend named Tom who has documented much about the Seri Thai movement and locations in Isaan... see the link below.

http://isaan-live.com/free-thai-in-northeast-thailand/

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Yes, the Seri Thai has featured in several popular Thai movies over the years, I remember a romance where a Japanese soldier falls in love but the girl's father is an ST guerrilla. . .

[JDGRUEN]

As for the effect - both positive and negative - the American presence had in the Vietnam War era ... I can only say that the presence was massive and long term. I was a part of that American presence in the late 1960's. Just one example... Of the dozens of establishments in Sakon Nakhon in that time - which provided sexual services most by far catered only to Thais and had been there for ages... I only know of two that were exclusive to American clientele.

I don't know the full details of how the Japanese treated the bar girls and prostitutes in Thailand - I don't have any statistics or reports but from many accounts they were often abusive. And that abuse was reflective of a thuggish Japanese military policy. Contrarily the American relationship with the girls was not much different than the male Expat - Thai girl relationships we have today. There were abuses of course - drunken troops could and did get out of hand- those troops stationed in Thailand and especially those not stationed in Thailand but visiting on R&R from Vietnam. But most importantly the American Military command structure was very strict about troop behavior - abusing a Thai woman could get a fellow into real trouble - not to mention Thai prison as there was no status of forces agreement. So by in large - even considering the massive American presence their behavior was benevolent compared to the Japanese occupation.

I have read estimates that there are up to 400,000 to 450,000 Western Expats (mostly male) living in Thailand with a Thai population of around 69 million. The number of American troops that were in Thailand is more difficult to pin down but here goes. There were about 2.2 million (mostly men) who served in the Vietnam war theater... and many of those served in Thailand. There were 7-8 or more major Air Forces air bases, a Naval Port, 6-8 significant Engineering Camps, 7-8 Special Forces Camps plus a headquarters, and numerous other support and command personnel. There was also a large Marine Air Base at Nam Phong near Khon Kaen. Keep in mind that American troops were stationed in Thailand in large numbers from at least 1962 to 1972 with the largest concentration in the late 1960.s into the early 1970's. Also keep in mind that a tour of duty was usually 13 months... so tens of thousands rotated in and out each year. The Thai population was also smaller. So - suffice it to say that contact between the hundreds of thousands of Americans and Thais over more than 10 years was very significant. And there were many pregnancies - some Americans knew about the children - some did not. Some Americans married the Thai girl and took her home with him. Some Americans married the Thai girl and stayed in Thailand.. What happened in that time was all over the map. Americans in that time were very often caring, supportive and respectful. There were plenty of exceptions to be sure ... but it was not the rule... and it certainly was not the policy to allow abuses. Therefore it is of no surprise to me that Americans are well thought of by the women mentioned in the OP.

Edited June 18, 2013 by JDGRUEN

[theblether]

I'm contemplating answering the OP but it will be easily my longest post ever on TV. It might drive some of you over the edge.

Hmmm, what to do, what to do.

[boosta]

People can always skip to a TL;DR summary at the end.

Or PM?

[theblether]

People can always skip to a TL;DR summary at the end.

Or PM?

I might answer tomorrow, there's a bit of historical context that is both shocking and for some members, highly uncomfortable. It could end up being a war zone thread, if you'll pardon the pun.

I'll have a think about it.

[boosta]

We'll be wading with baited breasts.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

JDGruen

809th at Sakhon Nakhon, perhaps?

Mac

44th, Friendship

[JDGRUEN]

JDGruen

809th at Sakhon Nakhon, perhaps?

Mac

44th, Friendship

Camp - Rom Chit Chai (Sp?) - Actually I was with the 46th. Special Forces - my camp was on a mountain on the road to Khon Kaen -- Camp Nam Phung Dam ... we had a club in Sakon Nakhon

[SteeleJoe]

She talked about the fact that they were always taught to be rabidly pro-American, which in her world-view is pretty mixed in with England Australia etc, and in her ideas of history WWII and Vietnam were also mixed together, as was the fact that America didn't believe in monarchy, she honestly didn't believe me that the US has never had a king.

One result of this upbringing is she viscerally hates the Japanese, lots of passed-down stories of the Japanese raping women and children, she chortled with glee about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This is apparently reinforced by their current reputation for being sadistic in their sexual habits. She's worked mostly in Patpong bars, and says that all the bars around there won't accept Japanese customers, that the girls kick them out and send them back to Thaniya (Soi Yipun) where they belong - where she has many friends working, but wouldn't do so herself. And of course the Japanese clubs return the favor, won't admit farang.

I asked her what if a mixed group of farang and Japanese were to "bie tiyo pooying" together and refused to be split up, segregated that way. She said they'd be sent off to Sukhumvit, which is the truly international industry area.

How old is this woman? I haven't been there on decades but I'm a bit surprised there's a woman in her mid to late 30's (at least) of almost entirely Farang descent. And what war was her grandfather in?

An orphanage with thousands of war babies? Taught to be rabidly pro-American. This results in a visceral hate of Japanese? Knows about Hiroshima and Nagasaki and laughs about it? Most Paong bars kick Japanese out? They are "sent" to Sukhumvit?

This all sounds rather odd to me.

[SteeleJoe]

...or get some Japanese friends and walk around and see what happens.

About 25 years ago I used to go there with 2 Japanese friends a few times a week. Does that count?

Edited June 19, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[boosta]

How old is this woman? I haven't been there on decades but I'm a bit surprised there's a woman in her mid to late 30's (at least) of almost entirely Farang descent. And what war was her grandfather in?

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Quite a few times now, I've been offered too-young girls by their under-30-y.o. mothers, so do the math, lots of vets here in the 60's getting onto 50 years ago now.

As another poster pointed out several US air bases were previously used by the Japanese, so the local population there would have had direct experience, not just hearsay transmission of attitudes, although the latter would have perpetuated and reinforced the former with the current younger generations.

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An orphanage with thousands of war babies? Taught to be rabidly pro-American. This results in a visceral hate of Japanese?

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Not explicitly "taught" but acculturated by normal informal discussions over the years just as kids unconsciously soak up their parents' "religions", paradigms, weltanschauung, ways of looking at the world.

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Knows about Hiroshima and Nagasaki and laughs about it? Most Patpong bars kick Japanese out? They are "sent" to Sukhumvit?

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Sure when I was giving her what I thought would be an introductory lesson in 20th century history, I was surprised how much she already knew, some from school, but apparently more from just aborbing films, and she is a reader, has over a foot-high stack of stuff on the bed, mostly girly/fashion trash but also Buddhist texts on meditation and an English learning text, this one's not a dummy, been soaking things up from her customers over ten+ years I reckon.

I haven't independently verified how generalized her attitudes are among the Patpong girls, but as she's pointed out and I passed on wouldn't be hard for anyone in Bangkok to try.

Actually the Japanese would be told to go to Thaniya where they "belong".

Her statement about Sukhumvit was after some thought, when I posited a hypothetical mixed group "bai tiyao puuying" together - obviously an artificial - or at least very rare scenario. Her point is simply that compared to Patpong vs Thaniya, Sukhumvit is a real "melting pot", where although many of the farang-oriented bars won't accept "khaek" customers, they don't have the neighbor-rivalry thing going on with Thaniya that Patpong does.

Those familiar with Thermae over the years will recall how it used to be a farang place, and now is Japanese-dominated, many of the girls down there won't go with farang no matter how much money you might flash, because the Japanese won't go with a girl that goes with farang, they think we're dirty or something, so the two sectors of the business end up somewhat segregated.

But some of the girls will go with either, in that case her Sukhumvit observation is confirmed by my own experience.

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For me the most interesting take-away is that the girls will self-identify based on the ethnicity of their preferred customer base.

I bet the ones that habitually solicit Arab/sub-continent "khaek" and African customers don't mix much with the girls that go with farang either.

Edited June 19, 2013 by boosta

[boosta]

This all sounds rather odd to me.

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Yes, news to me too, which is why I bothered posting about it. The orphanages are located in Suphan Buri, could maybe have her try to locate the institution for me on GoogleMaps next time I see her. Would make sense that the government would designate specific facilities for these types of children, also that it wouldn't be publicly spoken about much. And I don't think anyone would dispute that there are many many thousands of such descendants in the Kingdom, nor the trend for them to have entered the sex industry, making it a multi-generational issue, nor that a significant percentage would have been put into care due to the mother being unable to face her back-home community, or her family outright refusing to accept the kids due to the stigma in the community.

Note that she never said the orphanage's current population was made up solely or even mostly by kids like her, just that a lot of them were when she was in care, 10-25 years ago now.

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About 25 years ago I used to go there with 2 Japanese friends a few times a week. Does that count?

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Not about the current generation, which is what we're talking about. Did Thaniya even exist back then?

[theblether]

Right I'm going to answer this topic and the post will take ages to write. As I said yesterday it will be uncomfortable reading for many, mainly Americans, but history hidden is history forgotten. I'll be back in an hour or so.

[boosta]

We weak and feeble will wait on pins and needles. . .

[theblether]

We weak and feeble will wait on pins and needles. . .

Will you stop interrupting me, this is taking ages

[boosta]

Will you stop interrupting me, this is taking ages

So stop checking and keep writing!

Don't forget a TL;DR at the end those with short attention spans or other handicaps.

[Eesat]

3-3-3....Three inches, three minutes, three thousand Baht....Now do you get it?

-Hardly worth the trouble, but thanks.

15 years in Thailand and you've never heard that before?

[boosta]

15 years in Thailand and you've never heard that before?

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Sad but true, haven't actually done the bar scene much since my first few months here, and even then generally flew solo, don't drink so generally don't converse much with fellow foreigners outside of work, where such topics never come up.

In fact for nearly ten years now I only speak English to my students and my kids, they haven't heard that one either, nor have any of the other Thais I've asked.

[GooEng]

I must have missed the bit where it says she was In her mid-late 30's.... Anyway its not at all odd.

To be in your 30s now you need to have been born in the late 70's early 80's.

I knew a working gal on Samui in the mid 90's who was half negro. She was in her 30s then and her father was a Vietnam vet. Mother has worked Pattaya in the war era. She had a child in its early teens that she'd has when she was in her late teens early 20's to a Farang father. That child would now be in his thirties.

The occurrence of multiple generations of females in a family the same job (working gals) who procreate early is very common. I knew a 34 year old grandmother in BKK, still on the job, as was her daughter who had 2 kids before she was 18.