Remnants of war

[theblether]

Blether

I won't say you are wrong but looking at a picture from different angles produces different views.

First off, I studied the Japanese language for 4 years, including an initial 3 month immersion course on a Japanese campus. I studied Japanese history so I am aware of Perry's Black Fleet. I was taught it was a commercial invasion. The business of America is Business.

The Japanese defeated the Imperial (seems everyone was into being Imperial in those days) Russian Navy twice. The unannounced attack on Port Arthur put paid to the Eastern Fleet. Russia responded by sending the Western Fleet from the Black Sea, a journey that took 6 months. The Japanese Imperial Navy met them in the Straits of Tsushima, sank the Russian Flagship and many others.

The replacement of the Spanish in the Philippines was a result of the Spanish/American war in Cuba (Teddy being a prime instigator) amid claims of a possibly spurious attack on an American warship in Havana. Possession of the Philippines was a result of the peace treaty between Spain and America. There was resistance from the Filipinos to be sure. The Colt .45 was developed for that Theatre. America had already promised the Filipinos self-determination previous to the Pacific War.

The Japanese desired all the society-building commodities still in demand today but possessed few of them. They wanted to join the Empire Club. After all, they said, they had been our allies in the First WW. Japanese destroyers patrolled the American and Canadian West Coasts to deter potential German submarine attacks.

Singapore. The Australians were victims of British thinking that the Homeland was everything and Australia might have to be sacrificed. the Aussies were already fighting in N. Africa but wanted to bring their troops home. Churchill delayed.

etc.

Yup........I'm aware of all that, it's a sphere of interest to me.

I love the euphemism " a Commercial Invasion "

This is what I'm talking about, the true beginning of the US-Japanese relationship was when Perry turned up unannounced to a peaceful, isolated, defenceless nation and bombed it.

The US converted a peaceful, isolated, defenceless nation into an Imperialist War machine, a client state that was sent to do it's bidding in Manchuria.

You obviously know what you are talking about and I'd be delighted to go back and forth with you on any and all points, but sticking to the OP, far too many people don't know what happened to Japan, in Japan, and don't know it was the US that was the catalyst to give Japan Imperial ambitions.

[theblether]

@cpofc

Superb post, ( incidentally Bobbin I thoroughly enjoyed yours too ).

I'm also a great fan of Winston Churchill and you'll know that he was vilified and ridiculed all the way through the Thirties when he was a lone voice against the " appeasement " policy adopted by Baldwin, then Chamberlain.

My Uncle was captured at Singapore, several hundred Chinese locals that had volunteered to fight were beheaded at Changi Beach. Several allied soldiers were shot as they tried to escape, many left to float in the surf. You know all this already.

The problem is that too many people don't know this, and they should. Too many people don't know what caused the rise of Japan. History has repeated itself recently when the US sided with Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war, and sided with the Afghani rebels during the Russian occupation.

That worked out well eh?

I share your admiration for Ferguson ( a fellow Scot and extraordinarily astute intellect ), I also enjoy Neil Oliver ( another Scot ) but this guy is a modern genius, David Starkey.

Have a look at this clip.

" people don't like being freed "

Very profound.

.

Edited June 20, 2013 by theblether

[boosta]

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And, it is still happening today. When natural resources and large sums of money are at stake then there will always be those that will do what ever it takes to get it.

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I would like to think that as the world becomes more globalized and citizens more informed and empowered, foreign affairs won't be conducted solely on the basis of each nation's naked economic self-interest.

In the case of the U.S. so far recent past and continuing present trends are sadly disappointing to say the least.

And these days it isn't even the "self" interest of the nation as a whole, it's 100% driven by the interests of the narrow top of the assets-owning classes, any benefit accruing to common Americans is just an accident side effect. In fact those who say that globalization actually works against the middle and lower classes in the west are starting to look more and more accurate.

[boosta]

getting back to the OP and the (Thai) Remnants of WW2. My (English speaking) Thai father in law worked for the American Military since WW2. During the VN War he worked for them, mainly in Korat. I just find this girls commentary on the history of the Japanese 'Occupation' of Thailand extraordinary especially when considering her age. You have to go a long way to find Thais who know, or much less care, about it.

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Not saying she actually knows much of the historical details, more a strong visceral emotional reaction to Japanese programmed into her by those who raised her.

In business we see that even corporations have a culture. An institution in the business of raising discarded children will inculcate them into that culture, created both by those running the place and by the kids' peers. In this case a mix of the older generations' direct experience of the Japanese "non-occupation" and the passed-on ideas of GIs' SOs.

But that's not to say she isn't an unusually clever and knowledgable girl, definitely a quick study and gskilled at everything she sets her mind to. She's left her place at Patpong and is looking for a new on, probably will end up at one of the "come inside" bars on lower Sukhumvit. If anyone knows someone, she's rather work of course for a bar owned by farang. . .

Edited June 20, 2013 by boosta

[I Like Thai]

And, it is still happening today. When natural resources and large sums of money are at stake then there will always be those that will do what ever it takes to get it.

It is the only reason that it was ever done and will continue to be the only reason things are done.

[boosta]

"things" being countries waging war, invading and colonizing?

I'll go along with that historically for the most part, but there have been some humanitarian exceptions, some have even been a bit less than catastrophic.

That record may well improve in the future, never say never, most of the things we accept as commonplace today would have been unthinkable a relatively short time ago.

Edited June 20, 2013 by boosta

[transam]

After the Jap war the USA helped them move on, showed them stuff that turned their countries world around to be a world leader in manufacturing. .

[theblether]

After the Jap war the USA helped them move on, showed them stuff that turned their countries world around to be a world leader in manufacturing. .

I posted this before on TV..........

Now a lot of people don't know the following interesting thing........

During WW2 the US lost approx 10 million men to assist in the war effort........they were replaced in the business and factory settings primarily by women. The amazing thing was that US Industrial production soared by approx 400% even though it had lost it's most experienced workers to uniform.

After the war, the Japanese wondered how that was possible, and after a bit of investigation they discovered that the US had turned to a statistician called WE Deming for assistance in improving output.

This guy was a genius.....

http://en.wikipedia...._Edwards_Deming

he knew that statistics could tell you the bare facts, but he asked the next logical question.......why? Why are these statistics as they are?

He knew that the analysis of the stats was the most important thing........and managers in Japan were taught the benefit of such analysis. here's the example that stuck in my mind.

10 truck drivers do 10 drops every day, and they each drive 100 miles.

The fastest driver did it on average in 4 hours........the median was 5 hours......the slowest was 8 hours.

So what do you do?......sack the slowest driver? Or ask him why he is the slowest?

So they asked him why he was the slowest......and found out that by the time he got to his first stop the factory were downing tools for tea. he would have to wait for 30 minutes to be unloaded. This would cause a knock on effect where by the time he got to his 6th drop the factory would be closed for an hour for lunch, and on a bad day he would be truck number 5 waiting to be unloaded. So he wasted time waiting about on people whowere having breaks.

Solution?......go to the factories and tell them this story, persuade the management to keep their loading bays open all day, and allow the productivity of the drivers to soar.

If you ever wonder why Japanese production soared after the war, it was due primarily to the teachings of WE Deming.

[boosta]

Most influential founder of the whole "continuous quality improvement" "process design" etc philosophies of business, origin of the ISO standards etc, basically why Japan beat our arse in manufacturing for decades, now adapted into almost every area of management philosophy in every industry and category of business process.

[joeaverage]

Right I'm going to answer this topic and the post will take ages to write. As I said yesterday it will be uncomfortable reading for many, mainly Americans, but history hidden is history forgotten. I'll be back in an hour or so.

why the trailers, just post already

[boosta]

He did, how could you have missed it?

[cpofc]

Last night I thought I would put it to my (Thai) Wife, who is in her Mid 50s now, whether the Japanese 'Occupation' of Thailand was ever a topic of conversation for her, her family or friends as a girl growing up here in the 60s & 70s. She was quite emphatic. NO. NEVER.

It is perhaps not too surprising why many Thais don't want to know or talk about these few years of their long history, it is not exactly 'flattering'. This explains why the only history you get to see or hear on the subject is that of the Burma-Siam Railway.

Can't say I know much about the Free Thai Movement but I would suspect most would have been Thai-Chinese.

Like many countries the Japanese conquered and occupied in Asia, freeing them from the yoke of Western Colonization, it wasn't long before they realised one master had merely been replaced by another, who was even more cruel and ruthless than their predecessor.

World War II: Thailand

With the death of King Prajadhipok, the crown then passed to the King's Nephew Ananda Mahidol. He was just a boy at the time. The National Assembly recognized him as king (March 1935). He was a 9-year-old boy going to school in Switzerland.

This meant that at a time when World War II was approaching, the monarchy was unable to influence public policy. The military then seized control of the country. The Thai Government under Plaek Phibunsongkhram, (Phibun), sought to benefit from the war in Europe.

After the fall of France (June 1940), fighting occurred along the eastern border with the French in Indo China. Japan moved forces into Indo China which caused the United States to institute trade embargos. Attacks by the Thais began on September 28, 1940, but were sporadic.

The Thais launched a major offensive on January 5, 1941. The Japanese pressured the French Vichy regime in France to meet Thai demands for territory. Thailand occupied a strategic location.

The Japanese advances to Singapore, and India would have to move through Thailand. (B Haseman)

With limited resources and with the Japanese forces now in Indo China, the French had little alternative. The French ceded substantial territory to Thailand (March 1941). This included Laos west of the Mekong. much of the Cambodian province of Battambang.

This was territory that had been Thai before the French intervention into Southeast Asia. This apparent Thai victory made the Phibun Government very popular.

After Pearl Harbor, the Japanese crossed the Thai border at Chumphon (December 8, 1941). Thai officials quickly agreed to Japanese demands to allow transit to Japanese forces moving against the British in Malaya and Burma. Phibun announced that the arrangement with the Japanese was "prearranged". Phibun proceeded to sign a mutual defence pact with Japan (December 1941).

Thai participation was important to the Japanese both to promote its anti-colonial propaganda line and its own Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere.

Cooperation meant that the Japanese offensive would not be slowed by any Thai resistance and the need for a large occupation force.

However, there was some support from Thai nationalists. Pridi resigned from the cabinet to protest the arrangement with Japan but soon accepted the largely non-political post of regent for Ananda Mahidol who was absent.

The Phibun regime was forced by the Japanese to enter the war, declaring war on both Britain and the United States (January 1942).

Thai politics led to the development of a resistance movement. [Haseman] The country was divided between Phibun's military faction and a small civilian group led by Pridi. Inevitably Pridi and his supporters evolved from an opposition group to a resistance movement against Phibul and his Japanese allies. Ambassador Seni Pramoj in Washington was outraged and refused to deliver the declaration to the United States government.

The United States looked on Thailand as an occupied country and refused to respond with its own declaration of war. Seri was from an aristocratic family and organized the Free Thai Movement (FTM), a kind of government in exile. The FTM recruited Thai students in the United States to work with the U.S. Office of Strategic Services (OSS). The OSS trained Thais for underground work.

Pridi working out of the office of the regent in Thailand ran a clandestine operation that received Allied support to arm a resistance force. The Japanese conferred further territorial awards to the Phibun regime, including part of the Shan states in Burma and the four northern Malay states.

Japan drove moved through Thailand to seize Malay and Singapore and Burma. About 150,000 Japanese troops were actually stationed in Thailand. The Japanese used Allied POWs and local labourers to build a railroad to support its troops in Burma. The Japanese Army forced the men to working under horrible conditions with virtually no tools. The railroad was needed in part because of Japanese reverses in the Pacific naval war.

Thai attitudes toward the Japanese gradually shifted as the war progressed. Commercial trade stopped because of the War. Exports to Europe and America were no longer possible. This was not replaced by trade with Japan. The Japanese Army in Thailand began requisitioning supplies. Japan began dealing with Thailand more as an occupied country than a partner in the War.

As the War began to go against the Japanese, the Allied began bombing targets in Thailand, including Bangkok. The railroad built to supply the Japanese n Burma also became a major target. The popularity Phibun and his military regime had achieved by recovering territory eroded. A civilian government took power in June 1944.

The Japanese Army was preparing a major operation against resistance bases in northern Thailand (August 19, 1945). The Japanese surrender, however, caused Army commanders to cancel the offensive. American representatives arrived in Bangkok.

Prime Minister Khuang Abhaiwongse annulled the 1942 declaration of war (August 19). . The Regent, Pridi Banomyong, prepared a Royal Declaration of Peace that invalidated the two war declarations stating they were a violation of the Thai Constitution and not truly representative of the will of the Thai people. Resistance leader Seri Thai, paraded in Bangkok (August 20).

Sources
Haseman. John B. The Thai Resistance Movement During the Second World War.

[SinglePot]

After the Jap war the USA helped them move on, showed them stuff that turned their countries world around to be a world leader in manufacturing. .

Yep. Example. Japanese Victor Company. JVC. The beginning of the Japanese electronics industry.

It took the Japanese a while to make good motor cars and motor bikes, but that is a flippant comment in the context of the content and quality of the posting on this thread from theblether and others.

I'm humbled.

[SinglePot]

A relevant story (I think) to boosta's original post:

I know a Thai lady who was born at the same time as the 'killing fields' were taking place in neighbouring Cambodia but she knows nothing of Pol Pot and the KR.

I'm not being judgemental of anybody. Just a statement of fact.

[boosta]

People in the provinces along the Khmer border were certainly aware given the hundreds of thousands of refugees flooding across, but a newborn baby would have missed that, and given the lack of school education on the topic it's understandable that later generations haven't become aware of it.

Ask the average teen back home and you'll most likely find the same lack of knowledge.

Generally speaking the closest neighbors are the ones Thais have the least interest in or compassion for.

[cpofc]

After the Jap war the USA helped them move on, showed them stuff that turned their countries world around to be a world leader in manufacturing. .

Yep. Example. Japanese Victor Company. JVC. The beginning of the Japanese electronics industry.

It took the Japanese a while to make good motor cars and motor bikes, but that is a flippant comment in the context of the content and quality of the posting on this thread from theblether and others.

I'm humbled.

To sum up the Japanese, post WW2, in one sentence. They took their Military Bushido Code and just transferred it, and applied it to their new found business and corporate culture. The rest is history.

As a kid growing up in the 50s and 60s, it was a common, derogatory saying in Australia, as it was in the USA, when a product was inferior - 'Ahh.... typical, Made In Japan'.

Much the same as the current generation describe products from China today.

My Old Man was part of BCOF (British Commonwealth Occupation Forces) after the surrender and spent a couple of years there. He had a ball.

[theblether]

^^ I believe it took my Uncle the best part of two years to be repatriated from the POW camps in Taiwan. He was certainly furious at being abandoned in Southampton and being told to make his own way home. There's a lot of good work being done in Taiwan to gather and archive the stories and memoirs of the men who were imprisoned and brutalized there.

http://powtaiwan.org/

From a US perspective here's a brief document on the subject

http://www.taiwanpow.com/

I find it highly concerning that Thais don't know about the Killing Fields ( as mentioned by Singlepot ). That would be the equivalent to us not knowing about the holocaust. Then again the comment about getting our history from Hollywood that was made earlier is once again too close for comfort. If it hadn't been for the movie many of us would be blissfully unaware.

I'm not expecting everyone to be history buffs, but some issues need to be highlighted, even if it means highlighting uncomfortable truths.

[SinglePot]

People in the provinces along the Khmer border were certainly aware given the hundreds of thousands of refugees flooding across, but a newborn baby would have missed that, and given the lack of school education on the topic it's understandable that later generations haven't become aware of it.Ask the average teen back home and you'll most likely find the same lack of knowledge.Generally speaking the closest neighbors are the ones Thais have the least interest in or compassion for.

Thanks boosta. Understood. I find the history of SEAsia fascinating,

BTW I had a very pleasant dinner earlier in the week in an old French restaurant in PhnomPenh. The history was tangible.

[SinglePot]

I am very interested in this comment from cpofc.

"To put it in a nutshell, We greatly underestimated our enemy. And that underestimation was based on 'race'. Much the same underestimation was made of the Vietnamese. Some of my American friends are still making the same mistake when it comes to China today."

If cpofc or theblether or anybody else on 'the panel' has the time to elucidate further I would appreciate it.

I am particularly concerned about the current situation in China especially given the topical relevance of June 4 Tiananmen, and the recent visit of Xi Jinping to the US.

When I'm feeling a bit of angst about the situation there, I'll be totally frank with you , I sign off certain emails with:

Sent from my iPad, created in California and merely assembled in China.

I am more interested in the socio-political issues in China than the issue of intellectual property rights, but maybe they are inextricably linked.

Again, thanks for the education and enjoyment of reading the many excellent posts on this thread.

SP

[theblether]

I'll be with you directly SinglePot, here comes another one. Once again though this has a surprising outcome and picks up from a comment I made earlier.

[SinglePot]

I'll be with you directly SinglePot, here comes another one. Once again though this has a surprising outcome and picks up from a comment I made earlier.

thanks TB. in your own time. Appreciated. I look forward.

[trainman34014]

A relevant story (I think) to boosta's original post:

I know a Thai lady who was born at the same time as the 'killing fields' were taking place in neighbouring Cambodia but she knows nothing of Pol Pot and the KR.

I'm not being judgemental of anybody. Just a statement of fact.

My wife who is approaching her 50th birthday knew next to nothing about Pol Pot and the KR until i explained what had happened in Cambodia and got her to watch a couple of recorded documentaries i had obtained. She knew even less about the Japs and WW2 until i took her to see the graves of my two relatives at Kanchanaburi. Many Thai's live in a kind of vacuum through their childhood and some continue to do so for almost their entire lives; they are brought up to know so little about what goes on in the outside world that when they get older they actually avoid news from afar. Even now, my wife would never dream of watching any international news as she says..'Why i want to know about that when it not affect my life? '. It's a sad thing but they would rather watch 100 channels of junk than watch most factual programs about either history or current affairs.

[SinglePot]

A relevant story (I think) to boosta's original post:

I know a Thai lady who was born at the same time as the 'killing fields' were taking place in neighbouring Cambodia but she knows nothing of Pol Pot and the KR.

I'm not being judgemental of anybody. Just a statement of fact.

My wife who is approaching her 50th birthday knew next to nothing about Pol Pot and the KR until i explained what had happened in Cambodia and got her to watch a couple of recorded documentaries i had obtained. She knew even less about the Japs and WW2 until i took her to see the graves of my two relatives at Kanchanaburi. Many Thai's live in a kind of vacuum through their childhood and some continue to do so for almost their entire lives; they are brought up to know so little about what goes on in the outside world that when they get older they actually avoid news from afar. Even now, my wife would never dream of watching any international news as she says..'Why i want to know about that when it not affect my life? '. It's a sad thing but they would rather watch 100 channels of junk than watch most factual programs about either history or current affairs.

Thanks. Understood. I went to Kanchanaburi, as most of us do, as a tourist.

Respect.

[cpofc]

Carrier Battle Groups. America's uncontested 'Big Stick'. The very symbol, and heart of the world's only Superpower. For now.

Some friends of mine who are retired USN dismiss the Chinese. Stating that they will NEVER have the capability, nor master the art of Naval Aviation and A/C Battle Group Operations. Much less build one.

You could of course look all this up for yourself. There will be no shortage of information available for you to swat up on this subject via the web.

if any one country has the capability to rival American Sea Power and alter the status quo, I.E. Carrier Battle Groups, it is China. They have already commenced building and training. They know to be a rival word superpower they have to have Carrier Battle Groups.

Do not underestimate them.

The Americans refused to believe that the Japs could have pulled off Pearl Harbour, Douglas MaCarthur severely underestimated them in the Philippines and thus, he oversaw the greatest defeat in US Army History. Percival did the same in Malaya and Singapore. Weedy, weak, small, buck toothed, vitamin deficient, runts, who couldn't fight at night because of poor eyesight.

The (early days) of the Guadalcanal Sea Campaign. The Japs initially gave them a flogging as the USN learnt the hard way the art of naval warfare at night.

A little bit of study is all that's needed.

As for the race issue, I suggest you take a look at Niall Ferguson's excellent book, or video documentary series, 'The War of The World'. After that look at PBS' American Experience. 'War in The Pacific', a couple of excellent works.

The Vietnamese? How could a bunch of illiterate, backward rice farmers defeat the mighty US and her allies?

There are far better resources available for you to brush up on your history than me here. No end of resources actually.

[cpofc]

besides, it is not the OPs Topic as I understand it.

[boosta]

Of course China and Asia in general is on the ascent, but I don't think the danger will come from direct military confrontation. The west is digging its own grave without any help needed from outside anyway.

[boosta]

besides, it is not the OPs Topic as I understand it.

-

Don't let that stop anyone, the most interesting conversations are the tangents anyway.

[SinglePot]

Points taken and understood cpofc. Thank you for the guidance. it may be overdramatising and impertinent, but I can't help feeling a little bit like Sir Winston might have felt in the 1930s.

Very happy to be proven entirely wrong in the long run.

[theblether]

Earlier I said.......

Unlike the Chinese, who had the opportunity to learn and take advantage of the technological advances offered by the British during the Industrial Revolution, but arrogantly dismissed it, the Japanese saw the steel hulled fire breathing ships of the US navy and decided they wanted a bit of that.

Forgive me if I rush through vast swathes of history here............please also forgive me if I use a very broad brush.

A primary fault in the Chinese psyche is the actual name of the country........China, which means the " Middle Kingdom ".

The Chinese genuinely believed ( still do in many cases ) that their country is the centre of the World. This attitude engendered another level of arrogance from the Imperial rulers of that country that set off a chain reaction which is still reverberating to this day.

In the late 1790's King George sent an emissary to China to discuss trade issues. At that time China was exporting vast amounts of fine arts, porcelains, silks and the like to Europe and the UK. The balance of payments between Europe and China was way out of kilter, so the simple question to be asked of the Chinese was, would you like to buy some stuff from us?

The emissary was denied an audience with the Emperor for two years as he battled through ridiculous protocol demands and resistance from the Royal Court. When he was eventually granted the audience The Emperor contemptuously dismissed him out of hand with the words " you have nothing we need ".

This caused a furious reaction within the British court and government, and put China down as a non cooperative power. The Brits had no intention of mounting any kind of military operation against China, that was never on the cards, they just wanted to trade.

There are two things at play here, one that the British members are likely not aware of. That being that at the time of this meeting Britain was in a state of daily dread about the situation in France, the Revolution had caused shock waves throughout Europe and the idea of the Revolution spreading to the UK caused widespread alarm, and there was a realization that Britain was unprepared for war with Revolutionary France. Combat in a far away place was far from British minds, the Homeland was under threat again.

However if you had ever to prepare a list of the " Worst decisions in history ", the decision by China to dismiss Britain would come very close to the list. History shows that the Industrial Revolution changed the World, and instead of China getting access to all of these innovations on friendly terms, instead of using their vast wealth to invest in the infrastructure of the country, they were left behind.

The Brits were determined to open the Chinese market, and they hit the jackpot when they started to export Opium into the country. The British were in effect the biggest drug dealers in World history, and a vast amount of the GDP of the UK came from selling drugs to China. The Chinese Emperor ( another one ) wasn't very content at this trade and banned it. Hence the Opium Wars, as the Brits were still irritated at the Chinese arrogance, and they were taking too much money out of the country to allow the Emperors edict to stand.

The Opium Wars were a catastrophe for the Chinese psyche, here a foreign power had wandered in and humiliated them, and they didn't have the weaponry to repel the " invaders ".

Instead of being a proud and independent modern country, they were being picked apart by Britain and the rest of the Western powers, including the US, who were helping themselves to the riches of the country. So the word is............

Humiliation.

We've discussed here already that the attack by the US on Japan in 1855 started an Imperial ball rolling in that country, China for years had been the dominant power in the East, and now they were effectively in the position of being a servant state. The Chinese watched as the Western powers chipped away at their nation, Hong Kong was ceded to the British, the Russians had their eye on Manchuria, the Japanese had their eye on becoming the dominant Imperial power in the East, and the Chinese could do nothing about it.

Humiliating.

Especially as Japan had always been subservient to China.

The eventual invasion of the Chinese mainland, The Rape of Nanking ...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre and many other deprivations caused a deep seated hatred of all things foreign. That deep seated hatred is still prevalent today. You would be astounded at the level of visceral hatred of the West prevalent in the Chinese education system.

This mindset came to play all because the Emperor wouldn't trade. History would have been far different otherwise. The question asked though was what effect does it have today.

Right, China watched the USSR bankrupt itself in an arms race with the US. They realized that geographically and socio-economically, entering into an arms race with the West would be a waste of time and resources. So here's what the Chinese policy is now,

They will own the West, the Chinese central bank ( s ) are now rolling throughout the World buying up government debt, we are all aware that the US is deeply indebted to China. That situation is only likely to get worse. To make it even worse for the West, the balance of payments situation has returned. These figures are already skewed as China is a vast importer of commodities, which are then turned round and re-exported as manufactured goods. ( again, broadly ).

Chinese domestic consumption is low, the savings level is high, hence giving the banks access to even more cash to buy Western debt. Even though there is a demand for high end Western manufactured goods it's like snowfall on a summers day. The Chinese are already attempting to create their own luxury brands, and that which the can't create, they will copy.

I have sat in the company of a shareholder in a major component manufacturer that supplies HTC who told me that they couldn't care less about copyright issues. By the time they go through the convoluted court process they will already have a market share. He thinks we in the West are clowns for getting upset about it, he thinks it's a great business model The West innovates, China steals.

Oh, and they don't mind banning Western companies such as Google and Facebook. They create carbon copies, dominate the home market, look to expand and cheekily, list on the New York stock exchange where Western investors pour money into ant-competitive black holes. The Chinese think it's hysterical. Their protectionist policies have worked well for them, It's recently been announced that Ali Baba is now the largest e-commerce platform in the World, bigger than eBay and Amazon. You ever heard of Ali Baba? You will soon, it will be all over the West like a rash, promoting Chinese products.

China is determined to return to it's previous pre-eminent position of being the centre of the World, they are determined to avenge two centuries of humiliation, and their weapon of choice is financial warfare.

That's the true cost of Chinese goods, and within a few of years China will be the Worlds biggest economy, a few years after that it will dwarf the US economy, then we will become the servant states. Go back and watch the last minute of the David Starkey clip I posted earlier when he says it's already absurd to think that the West can pressure China.

This dominant role may be benign but I doubt it, they will most likely assert all of their territorial claims. You'll know it's all over when Taiwan cheerfully ( through gritted teeth ) announces that it's going back into Confederation with China. I give that about 30 years.

This new China will have a massive affect on Thailand, you will see a new surge of Chinese investment and domination of the local economy. You would need to be blind to not see it happening already.

The Chinese won't stop until they have avenged their humiliation. The only real "hope" for the West would be for India to get off it's knees and counter China. That country is so corrupt though that it's not likely to happen.

All this because an arrogant man dismissed the idea of free trade two centuries ago. History is compelling.

Edited June 22, 2013 by theblether

[SinglePot]

Absolutely fascinating TB.

Thanks for this. You write fast, and the story flows like a river.

You clearly have a passion for history and the circular nature of conflict.

Truly humbled.

SP