The Buddha's Culture of Generosity

[camerata]

While browsing around I found this interesting essay by Ven Thanissaro about dana and "dana talks" in the West. Here's a couple of paras from near the end:

"It's obvious that the monks who composed the Apadanas [a late addition to the Canon in which gifts for monks are listed] were giving free rein to their greed, and were eager to tell their listeners what their listeners wanted to hear. The fact that these texts were recorded for posterity shows that the listeners, in fact, were pleased. Thus the teachers and their students, acting in collusion, skewed the culture of dana in the direction of their defilements. In so doing they distorted the Dhamma as well. If gift-giving guarantees Awakening, it supplants the noble eightfold path with the one-fold path of the gift. If the road to Awakening is always prestigious and joyful, the concept of right effort disappears. Yet once these ideas were introduced into the Buddhist tradition, they gained the stamp of authority and have affected Buddhist practice ever since. Throughout Buddhist Asia, people tend to give gifts with an eye to their symbolic promise of future reward; and the list of gifts extolled in the Apadanas reads like a catalog of the gifts placed on altars throughout Buddhist Asia even today.

"Which goes to show that once the culture of dana gets distorted, it can distort the practice of Dhamma as a whole for many centuries. So if we're serious about bringing the culture of dana to the West, we should be very careful to ensure that our efforts honor the principles that make dana a genuinely Buddhist practice. This means no longer using the tactics of modern fundraising to encourage generosity among retreatants or Buddhists in general. It also means rethinking the dana talk, for on many counts it fails the test. In pressuring retreatants to give to teachers, it doesn't lead to gladness before giving, and instead sounds like a plea for a tip at the end of a meal. The frequent efforts to pull on the retreatants' heartstrings as a path to their purse strings betray a lack of trust in their thoughtfulness and leave a bad taste. And the entire way dana is handled for teachers doesn't escape the fact that it's payment for services rendered. Whether teachers think about this consciously or not, it pressures them subtly to tell their listeners what they think their listeners want to hear. The Dhamma can't help but suffer as a result."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/nostringsattached.html

[fabianfred]

Whilst a monk i was very aware and against the modern thai approach to Buddhism....being based upon dana....chanting....ceremonies....rituals.

Every time I got the opportunity i would tell the laypeople that there are ten ways to make merit....and dana is only the first.....and easiest....and earns the least merit....but many Thais are only taught by the monks to....tham kathin...tod pha pah...build temples and chedis and gutis.

Anything which requires more effort gets more merit so the most of all comes from vipassana meditation.

And the merit accrued also depends upon the giver and receiver...their state of spirituality....purity of purpose....etc.

The chanting of short chants to advise the giver of the benefits obtained from giving alms to a monk on alms-round is an example. Monks are not really meant to say anything...but it has become a custom so they do it. Some laypeople want to get a nice long chant....but I told them that to want something in return diminishes the gift...and if they are disappointed after not getting the long blessing they hoped for...then they have lost all the merit they made.

Most monks just play up to the kilesa of the lay people instead of teaching them the proper way.....because they don't want to drive them away...and their gifts with them....

Edited June 19, 2013 by fabianfred

[rockyysdt]

Whilst a monk i was very aware and against the modern thai approach to Buddhism....being based upon dana....chanting....ceremonies....rituals.

Every time I got the opportunity i would tell the laypeople that there are ten ways to make merit....and dana is only the first.....and easiest....and earns the least merit....but many Thais are only taught by the monks to....tham kathin...tod pha pah...build temples and chedis and gutis.

Anything which requires more effort gets more merit so the most of all comes from vipassana meditation.

And the merit accrued also depends upon the giver and receiver...their state of spirituality....purity of purpose....etc.

The chanting of short chants to advise the giver of the benefits obtained from giving alms to a monk on alms-round is an example. Monks are not really meant to say anything...but it has become a custom so they do it. Some laypeople want to get a nice long chant....but I told them that to want something in return diminishes the gift...and if they are disappointed after not getting the long blessing they hoped for...then they have lost all the merit they made.

Most monks just play up to the kilesa of the lay people instead of teaching them the proper way.....because they don't want to drive them away...and their gifts with them....

When you attempt to teach the folly of merit as practiced by Thais, is there an element of discounting your message due to your Farang origin (example: What would you know?)?

When l attend retreats, their philosophy is extremely important to me.

A number of retreats in my country operate like a business.

Fees border on the prohibitive.

Options like level of room luxury, extras, expensive clothing and accessories, high minimum fees, the list goes on.

I think: What is principal aim, generate money or teach Dharma.

For me Money and Dharma do not align.

Edited June 20, 2013 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

yes there is that. Even the abbot would often say....'you do not understand because you have not studied'. For the Thai monks, unless you have taken the 'NakDham 3, 2 or 1 exams then you know nothing. I refused to do it...they are just dates and places ...like the boring history lessons we used to get in school......or else the interminable lists of threes or fours or eights etc. which they take from the pali texts.

Real meditation centres in thailand such as Wat Rampoeng in Chiangmai do not charge anything...and you sleep on a mat on the floor.

[rockyysdt]

yes there is that. Even the abbot would often say....'you do not understand because you have not studied'. For the Thai monks, unless you have taken the 'NakDham 3, 2 or 1 exams then you know nothing. I refused to do it...they are just dates and places ...like the boring history lessons we used to get in school......or else the interminable lists of threes or fours or eights etc. which they take from the pali texts.

Real meditation centres in thailand such as Wat Rampoeng in Chiangmai do not charge anything...and you sleep on a mat on the floor.

Yes.

If l had the courage to take this step (Bikkhu) l would expect to be devoting my life to real practice.

My only involvement with people would be to obtain alms to sustain myself and not to improve my wealth.

I'm coming to the view that serious practice could be achieved as a private person with the aid of a partner who would be committed to providing the support.

Edited June 20, 2013 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

If I get the chance to ordain again....I would really like to try and do without money....so I would also not have a computer, camera, phone etc.....which all need money to run....and are a great distraction.

[fabianfred]

It would be interesting to leave your passport with someone safe....and just overstay.....would they deport a penniless monk?

[rockyysdt]

I don't know how old you are Fred, but I'm learning that the wheels start falling off as we age.

My concern would be medical/dental expenses and related transportation.

My current pharmaceuticals are 1,500 baht per month and will increase.

My mouth will soon be in for extensive work.

How does one manage on alms?

[fabianfred]

Like the forest monks...treat any illness with the Dhamma....meditation and mindfulness...you either get better or die.

[huli]

Like the forest monks...treat any illness with the Dhamma....meditation and mindfulness...you either get better or die.

I thought Buddha said that monks are entitled to medicine?

If a forest monk is not affiliated with a temple or the Sangha, I don't know where the money to buy medicine would come from, however.

[lungmi]

A good link too:

http://www.visalo.org/englishArticles/reThinkingKarma.htm

[sabaijai]

I don't know how old you are Fred, but I'm learning that the wheels start falling off as we age.

My concern would be medical/dental expenses and related transportation.

My current pharmaceuticals are 1,500 baht per month and will increase.

My mouth will soon be in for extensive work.

How does one manage on alms?

In the spirit of dana, most monasteries, their trustees or lay members are able to care for monks.

And of course there is the Monks Hospital in Bangkok.

[rockyysdt]

I don't know how old you are Fred, but I'm learning that the wheels start falling off as we age.

My concern would be medical/dental expenses and related transportation.

My current pharmaceuticals are 1,500 baht per month and will increase.

My mouth will soon be in for extensive work.

How does one manage on alms?

In the spirit of dana, most monasteries, their trustees or lay members are able to care for monks.

And of course there is the Monks Hospital in Bangkok.

That's a positive thing.

I would probably not cope if I gave up worldly possesions to ordain, and then find myself unsupported medically.

Naturally I would feel obligated to practice diligently knowing the the community were effectively supporting me.

[sabaijai]

Whether feasible or not, it would be illegal. So I doubt any senior members would elaborate.

[steinghan]

It would be interesting to leave your passport with someone safe....and just overstay.....would they deport a penniless monk?

...

Truth is that many farang monks at some point depart thailand, usually because of visa hassles, among others..

...

Is that so ? Are you sure they were actual, practicing monks ? - I've always though that the only requirement for a "monk's visa" - i.e yearly extensions on grounds of being a monk - is that you are ordained and genuinly living and practicing as a monk. No financial requirements whatsoever - so no, they wouldn't deport a (genuine) farang monk just for being penniless.

As for leaving the passport with someone safe and just overstay. - I wouldn't count on it. Immigration - as well as lots of abbots - are fully aware of illegal foreigners and other crooks abusing temples for hideouts and foreigners abusing ordinations as means to get a one-year extension and then disappear. So, you may need to show your valid passport with valid stamps now and then - which shouldn't be a problem if you actually are a monk.

Edited July 8, 2013 by steinghan

[sabaijai]

It varies from wat to wat. There is no national policy but since an extension of visa from the National Buddhist Council requires a letter from an abbot, if gives abbots a lot of discretion.

I was talking to an Australian monk at Wat U Mong in Chiang Mai who has been in robes around Thailand for nearly 20 years, and he said that many monasteries discourage foreign monks from staying in robes longterm in Thailand. He said it's not uncommon for the abbot at a monastery to ask that you return to your home country to spread the word after you've been here five years or more.

It's not as easy as it used to be. On the other hand, with the decline in numbers of monks in Thailand, maybe the trend will reverse.