how do we feel about the inevitability of death

[whybother]

I know this is not the book section....but I find it relevant here.

I stumbled across this book with an open mind from a very sceptical background.

" Proof of Heaven" by Eben Alexander, M.D. A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife.

An amazing story from a highly educated person who also did not only disbelieve religion and everything that goes with it.....but he had hard core belief that there is no soul and what we think of ourselves is just the brain doing its job.

After his personal experience of being on life support and virtually "brain dead" he recalls his experiences in this book.

Now I have doubts.

Worth the read.......don't knock it 'till you try it.

Cheers.

I've had two friends in my lifetime that have had near death experiences; one so close to apparent death that his wife was told to gather the family at his Hospital bed because he would not last the night. However; he pulled through and some months later i just had to ask him if he knew what was going on at the time, or if there were any silver lined stairways, or doors with his passed relatives standing waiting for him, or was he up in the corner of the ceiling looking down on himself, yada yada. He told me he knew absolutely nothing and that it was all a blank until he woke up 30 odd hours later, so he would not have known he was dying, or even dead. The other person told me the same and from their personal experiences they were pretty sure there is nothing there 'on the other side'. I guess there is only one way we will ever know for sure....or not know !!

What is the difference between a "near death experience" and a dream?

[partington]

I know this is not the book section....but I find it relevant here.

I stumbled across this book with an open mind from a very sceptical background.

" Proof of Heaven" by Eben Alexander, M.D. A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife.

An amazing story from a highly educated person who also did not only disbelieve religion and everything that goes with it.....but he had hard core belief that there is no soul and what we think of ourselves is just the brain doing its job.

After his personal experience of being on life support and virtually "brain dead" he recalls his experiences in this book.

Now I have doubts.

Worth the read.......don't knock it 'till you try it.

Cheers.

Clearly he wasn't dead since he wrote the book afterwards.

Being near dead is like being near virgin. Clearly there's no reliable way of telling whether experiences induced by altered brain function as a result of accident or stroke represent views of something real, or views of something unreal, like the dreams created by our brains every night.

Also as recounted in post 90, not everybody who is "near death" has a typical near death experience. In fact most don't.

This also makes it more plausible that it is caused by specific brain responses that do not occur in every 'near death' brain. Otherwise, if it was a view of something real and external to the brain perceiving it, everyone near death would see it.

[MrWorldwide]

Given that the workings of the human brain are still not completely understood by science, and we reportedly only use 10% of it's 'processing power' anyway, I wont rule out the possibility that this is an organ capable of creating a massive 'universe' as we cross the threshold. I have no plans to go looking for that universe via artificial means (particularly in Asia ..), but if it happens when the time comes, so much the better. One of the things which stands out from the accounts given by people who have glimpsed that 'other world' is that they no longer fear death - if anything, they seem to have a much more balanced view of the cycle.

[Rsquared]

@ Partington.....I hear what you are saying. I cannot quote the book, but this guy explains how the brain works and actually mocked (to himself) his patients who described similar experiences, until he had his own experiences.

Just read the book with an open mind as I did......I'm not converted, now I'm just not so sure.

Cheers.

[MrRealDeal]

I wonder if the cure for death comes about someday , imagine some machine or pill that rejuvenates you back 20 years each 20 or something like that ..... If religious people will be religious enough to pass on the cure and go heaven naturally.

[YankeeVet]

First of all I am a Christian. I do believe in life after death. At least part of me does. This is a conflict. At this point in my life I can tell you I am not absolutely sure. Maybe we are just smart apes that created religion as a belief system. I, like many others would like to believe that when we die we continue to exist in another state, i.e. heaven. The natural order doesn't seem to suggest this. Look at a dog run over at the side of the road. How is a human at death any different? Is spiritual existence just a creation of our creative minds? We know from historical records that Jesus existed but was he really the Son of God? Does his existence prove who he claimed to be? I was born and raised in the church. My undergrad is in geology. There is evidence in science for creation theory and God. How I wish I was ignorant and had no desire to contemplate such things. Either way, I live the best I can according to my religious principles and appreciate every moment on this Earth with me Family.

[GooEng]

First of all I am a Christian. I do believe in life after death. At least part of me does. This is a conflict. At this point in my life I can tell you I am not absolutely sure. Maybe we are just smart apes that created religion as a belief system. I, like many others would like to believe that when we die we continue to exist in another state, i.e. heaven. The natural order doesn't seem to suggest this. Look at a dog run over at the side of the road. How is a human at death any different? Is spiritual existence just a creation of our creative minds? We know from historical records that Jesus existed but was he really the Son of God? Does his existence prove who he claimed to be? I was born and raised in the church. My undergrad is in geology. There is evidence in science for creation theory and God. How I wish I was ignorant and had no desire to contemplate such things. Either way, I live the best I can according to my religious principles and appreciate every moment on this Earth with me Family.

YankeeVet, interesting and honest post regarding the conflicts you feel regarding the afterlife and your religion in general. I'd be interested to know what "evidence in science for creation theory and God" you know of and how that stacks up against the evidence for the non-creationist theory.

[partington]

@ Partington.....I hear what you are saying. I cannot quote the book, but this guy explains how the brain works and actually mocked (to himself) his patients who described similar experiences, until he had his own experiences.

Just read the book with an open mind as I did......I'm not converted, now I'm just not so sure.

Cheers.

Forgive me, if you found this book impressive good luck to you, but no one knows how the brain works, so he couldn't have explained it. No-one has any idea how the experience of consciousness arises from brain activity - it is one of the biggest scientific mysteries.

Furthermore, one man's direct experiences don't really count as evidence. I of course believe that he had an experience so profound it changed his views: this happens to many people under many circumstances, for example religious conversion, alien abduction, and so on.

No-one is denying you can have mental experiences that change your views radically. The question that is not answered by these experiences is: do they arise from outside or inside your head?

The strong belief of someone who experiences this event does not relate in any way to that question. Of course he believes it strongly, himself. So do people who hear voices telling them to kill people.

This is the sort of stuff he experienced as described by Professor Colin Blakemore, neuroscientist and head of the UK Medical Research Council:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/9598971/Is-the-afterlife-full-of-fluffy-clouds-and-angels.html

For most of my journey, someone was with me. A woman.” She had a lovely face and golden brown tresses, and she was dressed appropriately for a Cecil B DeMille movie, in peasant costume, in subtle shades of “powder blue, indigo, and pastel orange-peach”. She was quite a stunner. She looked at Dr Alexander “with a look that, if you saw it for five seconds, would make your whole life up to that point worth living, no matter what had happened in it so far”. It was a look “beyond all the different compartments of love we have down here on earth”.

The astounding neuroscientist Sam Harris wrote a great piece on this too (very cutting) : http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven

Our current understanding of the mind “now lies broken at our feet”—for, as the doctor writes, “What happened to me destroyed it, and I intend to spend the rest of my life investigating the true nature of consciousness and making the fact that we are more, much more, than our physical brains as clear as I can, both to my fellow scientists and to people at large.”

Well, I intend to spend the rest of the morning sparing him the effort.

Edited June 24, 2013 by partington

[Morakot]

Dying is easy, it's living that scares me to death.

-- Annie Lennox

[Weatherman]

YankeeVet, interesting and honest post regarding the conflicts you feel regarding the afterlife and your religion in general. I'd be interested to know what "evidence in science for creation theory and God" you know of and how that stacks up against the evidence for the non-creationist theory.

No-one is denying you can have mental experiences that change your views radically. The question that is not answered by these experiences is: do they arise from outside or inside your head?

All of our reality arises from inside your head, that's the only stuff you can be really sure of.

Everything we project as taking place outside is a non-objective interpretation of inputs from our limited perceptive senses.

Sciences strives to make those interpretations more objective, and while the side-effect results have certainly improved our world in material ways, using that approach to explain the fundamental questions about "reality" itself is chasing unicorns.

Top scientist readily acknowledge this, are all too humble about the limits of scientific inquiry and the paltry state of our current knowledge.

Only lazy thinkers believe science holds all the answers, and dismiss questions outside its domain.

And that includes those who look for "evidence in science for creation theory and God".

[partington]

YankeeVet, interesting and honest post regarding the conflicts you feel regarding the afterlife and your religion in general. I'd be interested to know what "evidence in science for creation theory and God" you know of and how that stacks up against the evidence for the non-creationist theory.

No-one is denying you can have mental experiences that change your views radically. The question that is not answered by these experiences is: do they arise from outside or inside your head?

All of our reality arises from inside your head, that's the only stuff you can be really sure of.

Everything we project as taking place outside is a non-objective interpretation of inputs from our limited perceptive senses.

Sciences strives to make those interpretations more objective, and while the side-effect results have certainly improved our world in material ways, using that approach to explain the fundamental questions about "reality" itself is chasing unicorns.

Top scientist readily acknowledge this, are all too humble about the limits of scientific inquiry and the paltry state of our current knowledge.

Only lazy thinkers believe science holds all the answers, and dismiss questions outside its domain.

And that includes those who look for "evidence in science for creation theory and God".

Well, of course I agree that all our experiences of reality arise from inside our heads. Some of this experience has verifiable sources in the external world however. It can be detected, by instruments, by other observers and so on. In principle, distinguishing a hallucination from an event in the external world is possible and open to investigation by the usual scientific method.

I don't agree at all that using this method to explain the fundamental questions about "reality" itself is chasing unicorns.I believe that scientists do, and will continue to, investigate these matters using the scientific method.

And although our current understanding is paltry, it was more paltry a hundred years ago, and will be less paltry in a hundred years time.

In principle, a biochemical understanding of consciousness is possible. If that is achieved questions like this become ordinary scientific problems.

[Weatherman]

I don't agree at all that using this method to explain the fundamental questions about "reality" itself is chasing unicorns.I believe that scientists do, and will continue to, investigate these matters using the scientific method.

-

In principle, a biochemical understanding of consciousness is possible. If that is achieved questions like this become ordinary scientific problems.

I am skeptical of both, but am open to the possibility slim as it may be.

If so, that would be magical, in the sense of Clark's "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

[canman]

First of all I am a Christian. I do believe in life after death. At least part of me does. This is a conflict. At this point in my life I can tell you I am not absolutely sure. Maybe we are just smart apes that created religion as a belief system. I, like many others would like to believe that when we die we continue to exist in another state, i.e. heaven. The natural order doesn't seem to suggest this. Look at a dog run over at the side of the road. How is a human at death any different? Is spiritual existence just a creation of our creative minds? We know from historical records that Jesus existed but was he really the Son of God? Does his existence prove who he claimed to be? I was born and raised in the church. My undergrad is in geology. There is evidence in science for creation theory and God. How I wish I was ignorant and had no desire to contemplate such things. Either way, I live the best I can according to my religious principles and appreciate every moment on this Earth with me Family.

YankeeVet, interesting and honest post regarding the conflicts you feel regarding the afterlife and your religion in general. I'd be interested to know what "evidence in science for creation theory and God" you know of and how that stacks up against the evidence for the non-creationist theory.

Infinity crops up in scientific equations which try to describe reality. This becomes a problem, so the fix for these pesky ifinities is a process called 'normalisation' which just means they get rid of the infinity to make the equations work.

I have always thought that if a God exists these infinities may just be a clue.

[apetley]

I have been afraid of death for a long time I don't like the idea one bit but the fear has gotten less. But if I have to go i hope i go fast and not slow and in pain. But i believe im in the wrong country for euthanasia. 

Everything can be got for a price rob:-)

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[dominique355]

First of all I am a Christian. I do believe in life after death. At least part of me does. This is a conflict. At this point in my life I can tell you I am not absolutely sure. Maybe we are just smart apes that created religion as a belief system. I, like many others would like to believe that when we die we continue to exist in another state, i.e. heaven. The natural order doesn't seem to suggest this. Look at a dog run over at the side of the road. How is a human at death any different? Is spiritual existence just a creation of our creative minds? We know from historical records that Jesus existed but was he really the Son of God? Does his existence prove who he claimed to be? I was born and raised in the church. My undergrad is in geology. There is evidence in science for creation theory and God. How I wish I was ignorant and had no desire to contemplate such things. Either way, I live the best I can according to my religious principles and appreciate every moment on this Earth with me Family.

It would be interesting to see what evidence you are referring to in favor of creationism.

A scientist once said about President George W. Bush, who strongly believes in Creationism and Intelligent Design, that he is the best proof that Intelligent Design is wrong.

In fact, the overwhelming majority of scientists refute Creationism and Intelligent Design. Evolution has give more than convincing evidence for our existence.

My question to those who believe in Intelligent Design is: Who designed this "intelligent designer"? It's a dead end theory which gives no answers.

[Weatherman]

All that exists must have existed "forever" in some form or another.

Problem with "forever" is that time itself is just an artifact of our own limited mechanisms of perception in this particular configuration of dimensions we call our universe.

All the other possible universes also exist with very different "laws" of nature, plus all the (15+ now?) dimensions that the normal parts of our brain can't really conceive of, just think about using basically pure maths.

Get out that far into science and it all seems much less plausible than all the other explanations.

[jaideeguy]

Au contraire, many voluntary euthanasia advocacy organizations send their members to Thailand to purchase nembutal, one of the preferred exit strategies.

Ok did not know that what i had learned was that doctors here only do passive euthanasia not active meaning they just don't feed you anymore or give you medicine but do nothing to help you on your way.

-

But I'm sure it's much easier to take matters into your own hands here, perhaps enlisting help if needed, than it would be in many home countries.

I interned at a hospital in Australia and learned that staff there had very enlightened views, sometimes patients were "inadvertently" given a bit too much morphine when it was obviously way past time, family all agreed no hope time to end the suffering.

But very few places are OK with explicitly allowing such measures, too many grey areas and possible confusion, mistakes.

Not to mention the influence of the religious right-to-life types. . .

Wrong, my friend.....much harder to get the 'preferred' meds here as they are strictly controled and the only morphine that you can get outside of a hospital environment is 1 strip of sustained release low dosage. This I know 1st hand with my father's death here in pain that could have been lessened with a decent dose of morphine. and Buddhists believe we are here to suffer...............not me.

[notmyself]

dear Dom, you don't upset me if you are a doctor... i just said people have goals to feel vip or to have a better life . guys with cars and houses have never impressed me as we know most live with credit cards and plenty of debts and probably have children they never have taken care of plus 3 divorces... up to you to believe what you want, Buddhism say we go through many lives to reach heaven... you believe there is nothing, just black hole, well you will have a good surprise because your are totally right. you set your mind and it s where you will go. people goes where they want to go. if I go right, I turn right, you want go left you turn left. I think in India they have some kind of 14 levels where you soul will go and it s up to you to decide where to go. plus 7 is heaven, minus 7 is hell. guess where you are now? around level 0. I think it s important to respect religion and respect beliefs of others as long they don't hurt people like fanatics. Buddhism will not tell you are wrong, because at the end, it s up to you to believe what is good for you. so if you believe there is nothing and you are OK with that, why not? you can even say people are stupid and ignorant, that s OK too. I got many friends who think like you and I respect them but they got big problems when I ask them "... if there is nothing after life as you said , where do you come from in this case?" they answer" I come from nothing "or some guys say they come from their mother (eggs or chicken I could argue?) . then I answer" if there is nothing before and after life, you don't suppose to be here as there is nothing and your mother should not exist as well. right? " most will answer by ," yes but my mother exist and I exist" and I reply "you just told me you are nothing... so what you do here?" then they don't know what to answer... i just look at their reaction, they start to scratch their head or they go away... or change conversation...

Some interesting points, Charly, but don't you mix up the origin of the universe with evolution?

It is indeed an interesting question why is there something (in the universe) rather than nothing? I don't know, nobody knows. But Einstein showed us that energy and matter are the two sides of the same. In that sense, when we die, will will not vanish. The molecules that made our body are still there, but they disintegrate, change into some different molecules or compounds. So, indeed, there is not nothing after death.

But what we are talking about here is life. Life is usually defined as having DNA. And our DNA disintegrates after death, hence "nothing", i.e. no life. I am not buying the concept of "soul" and even less the concept of migrating souls or souls that travel to other fictive place (heaven, nirvana, hell, whatever).

The concept of life after death with eternal justice or the possibility to reach such a state (after several go rounds), is in my conviction an attempt to console people about the inherent injustice in nature. The concept of Karma goes in the same direction. But the concept of "justice" pre-supposes someone or something deciding what is right and wrong, what is fair and what is not fair. That something doesn't exist. Justice and fairness are concepts of the human mind, not of nature. Nature is inherently unfair. Or is it fair that the lion kills the young gazelle?

We are a product of evolution and evolution is possible because of the nature of DNA.

About the egg and the chicken: could it be that the chicken is just the egg's way of making a new egg?

Someone mentioned "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkings, read it. It's fascinating.

And perhaps I may also recommend "The God Delusion" by the same author.

Blind watchmaker even.

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

For me equal and fair treatment is a very important dimension. I'm in no hurry to die but content to accept it given that there isn't anyone else who can avoid it through a corrupt process or by reason of their class, their status or their money.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Rajab Al Zarahni

[notmyself]

I play by look before you leap and he who hesitates is lost. Missus says No! No! No! you cannot drive down the middle of the road in BKK. People think you crazy! she said. I'll cut my break leads next time I go down there with her, then she'll know.

[Cheapcharly]

death is another universe, another type of life... heaven? . is that our ultimate goal? .. heaven, ladies, champagne, caviar....? would be boring at the end, no?

think about, 17 billions year ago there was a big bang(boom! yes just a boom, and everybody belive it because we say there was a big bang) . not sure of time, Google it if i m wrong. I think they say 17.6 billions years.

before big bang, all materials was bonded together, a big giant plasma very hot sea, or a star... so big... than even you imagination can not think about. we don't know where this matière come from. parallel universe...?( I don't understand why people talk always about one big bang... why not several big bangs? if universe ( or space) is infinite, there are infinite big bangs? infinite gods? infinite worlds and stars.)

anyway... we got this big bang.

and we come from that big stupid bang ! we were all bonded together before, now we are separated...

[klubex99]

This is Thai related?

[CharlieH]

The best you can hope for is to die peacefully in your sleep, in fact you could say we all die each night, the only difference is that one day you wont wake up, but the good part is that you wont know you didnt wale up because you will be asleep.........permenantly!

[seajae]

mate, the waits killin me

[BillyBobThai]

I am the youngest of three. My middle brother put a 12 ga. shotgun in his mouth and took the top of his head off. My oldest brother took maybe 5 grams of morphine after a stoke left him unable to take care of himself.

Me, I lost 42% of my heart muscle after a series of heart attacks 10 years ago. I hope that my ticker just

stops with no added pain. I no longer have any fear of dying.

[Cheapcharly]

why should we worry anyway?

were you worry before to be born?

maybe u were, maybe not... u probably don't remember when a white guy came to you with the bad new. and told you you will go back to earth to fill your mission. but he will not tell you what damn mission you have to do.

I remember when I took conscience of my body and i thought this world had no sense really.. i was better where I was.

but here I am... so now suck it or leave it....

one day maybe u will see what is your mission. maybe meet a thai lady and make their life better. have babies,save people...

when u will die. you will meet a white guy.... he will ask you what you did for others?

stop to think about yourself... all I can tell you. you don't need this world, the world needs you. it s why you are alive, to complete your damn mission.

[Naam]

If we are talking about death in Thailand.

I like to go between two Issan Pretties ...

If it's going to be my last thought ... why not a good one?

.

me too... but please... don't tell my wife!

[jpeg]

we are different and we are on different levels

Oh thank <deleted> for that. I get the chills with all this 'we are all one' stuff whenever I hear the peasants squawking out back or have some jumped up twerp cut me off in his new SUV

[diyer]

The only certain thing after birth, is death.

I don't worry about death, I only worry about how I die.

[Cheapcharly]

I worry about birth...!

don't want land in Africa... or usa...