New visitor visa bonds

[jrtmedic]

theoldgit

Agree.

Many DM readers do seem to be a "sandwich short of a picnic" but they are allowed to vote and walk amongst us!

[katastrophic]

theoldgit

Agree.

Many DM readers do seem to be a "sandwich short of a picnic" but they are allowed to vote and walk amongst us!

When I lived in England, I was a Daily Mail reader. I sincerely apologise for voting without your knowlege of politics, and even worse, walking on the same ground as you and whoever 'us' is.

BTW, the Mail has the second largest readership in the UK. Must be a lot of sandwiches missing.

And your preferred reading is....?

[markey1234]

theoldgit

Agree.

Many DM readers do seem to be a "sandwich short of a picnic" but they are allowed to vote and walk amongst us!

The average Daily Mail reader doesn't understand the issue, but there are enough people out there who believe that the average tourist, family visitor or student go to the UK just to live there and claim benefits.

They don't realise that the vast majority return home, and if they didn't they wouldn't be able to claim benefits.

It's very sad to see people being brainwashed this way.

That is a very derogatory comment about daily mail readers who in February 2013 had a circulation of 1,829.266. I suppose that is an advantage of being a moderator you can post any comments you like about people regardless on how derogatory they may be.

[theoldgit]

@katastrophic

I don't know if you read the Daily Mail story on the proposed visa bond issue, if you did I'm sure you will agree that the majority of those who made comments had no real understanding of the main issues.

I used to read that paper on my daily commute in London, passed the 40 mins or so.

[h5kaf]

Not quite sure what public sector pay and pensions has got to do with the debate.

I imagine that if the UKBA collected the bond it would kept in an imprest account and would most certainly be ring fenced, they wouldn't be able to use it for day to day operational spending.

The whole thing would be a logistical nightmare, who would hold the bond and where, if the bond was taken when the visa was issued, when would the bond be returned, when the person returned from their two week holiday or when the visa expired.

There would be massive operating costs, embarkation controls may have to be reintroduced, or at least a way of recording that somebody left the UK, managing and returning the bond, appeal processes if the bond was wrongfully withheld, no doubt visa costs would need to go up again.

Not quite sure what public sector pay and pensions has got to do with the debate.

I imagine that if the UKBA collected the bond it would kept in an imprest account and would most certainly be ring fenced, they wouldn't be able to use it for day to day operational spending.

The whole thing would be a logistical nightmare, who would hold the bond and where, if the bond was taken when the visa was issued, when would the bond be returned, when the person returned from their two week holiday or when the visa expired.

There would be massive operating costs, embarkation controls may have to be reintroduced, or at least a way of recording that somebody left the UK, managing and returning the bond, appeal processes if the bond was wrongfully withheld, no doubt visa costs would need to go up again.

I read this post because I am in the process of working out how to get my Thai step daughter a tourist visa to visit the UK for 2 weeks. A few issues arise.

If she is stamped into the UK in her passport but not stamped out will the Thai authorities give her hassle when she arrives back in Thailand?

Will I be investigated by the UKBA in the visa application process?

Can the UKBA introduce a bond to Thai visitors whenever they decide, rather like the Thai immigration's discretionary approach?

[theoldgit]

The average Daily Mail reader doesn't understand the issue, but there are enough people out there who believe that the average tourist, family visitor or student go to the UK just to live there and claim benefits.

They don't realise that the vast majority return home, and if they didn't they wouldn't be able to claim benefits.

It's very sad to see people being brainwashed this way.

That is a very derogatory comment about daily mail readers who in February 2013 had a circulation of 1,829.266. I suppose that is an advantage of being a moderator you can post any comments you like about people regardless on how derogatory they may be.

As a moderator I'm subject to the same rules as anybody else, I cannot make derogatory remarks about anybody I choose to, if people think that I have done so they can report me, likewise I cannot discuss moderation, so I'm probably pushing the boundries by even taking the bait.

If you feel I've made derogatory remarks then feel free to take whatever action you feel appropriate. But I stand by my viewpoint, based on some of the readers comments to the article, that the readers who have commented don't have a basic idea on the issues, and I don't believe I have said any derogatory.

And I still believe the readers are being brainwashed, but being controversial helps the DM sell newspapers.

[theoldgit]

I read this post because I am in the process of working out how to get my Thai step daughter a tourist visa to visit the UK for 2 weeks. A few issues arise.

If she is stamped into the UK in her passport but not stamped out will the Thai authorities give her hassle when she arrives back in Thailand?

Will I be investigated by the UKBA in the visa application process?

Can the UKBA introduce a bond to Thai visitors whenever they decide, rather like the Thai immigration's discretionary approach?

Nothing to worry about, the UKBA don't stamp people out on embarkation, the Thai authorities know this and it will not cause a problem, the US authorities don't stamp out either.

Not sure what you mean about investigated by the UKBA during the visa application process, if you are saying she made a previous visit to the UK, the ECO will know that passports are not checked when leaving the UK, but they may look at entry stamps into Thailand.

Thailand has never been mentioned in relation to this proposed bond, so we will have to wait and see if the proposal even gets off the ground with other countries first>

[theoldgit]

Personal insult removed.

[hotrod4098]

make it £15000.. paid when you apply for a student visa..no refund if you fail to get it.....thats where most problem arise..

[Jay Sata]

Programmes such as Border Force and regular stories of restaurants etc found to be employing visa abusers tend to support the general view in the UK that the system is open to abuse.

Whether a person is stamped out is irrelevant as over stayer's tend to disappear and there is not enough manpower to discover them until they surface working illegally or are arrested for petty crime.

[Baerboxer]

make it £15000.. paid when you apply for a student visa..no refund if you fail to get it.....thats where most problem arise..

Good thinking - let's kill off all overseas students coming to the UK

UK universities rely a lot in attracting foreign students, who pay considerably more in tuition fees. They also, in the main, help enrich university life and culture and provide platforms for future overseas research connections and development. Many people I know in Asian countries now look to send their children to Australia or Canada. They would prefer the UK but the others offer lower costs and less bureaucracy, whislt the percieved (by the Asians) drop in academic stature has narrowed.

Perhaps looking at the inept and ineffective UKBA's ability to find and remover overstayers would be a better solution. I know people who were reported as longterm overstayers several years ago to the UKBA, They are still there, living in the same house, several years later.

It would be interesting to see some statistics that support the work of the UKBA in this area. Maybe stamping out pasports would be a good start.

But, rather than addressing a process issue by making the UKBA perform, which might involve some intitial cost, or upset some of its staff, its easier to impelemt some kind of financial incentive to make the visitors go back.

The current UK government want to appease the right wing and don't particularly care that this plan will inconvenience many ordinary honest people whilst doing very little to detect and prevent the criminals. It seems a trait of recent UK governments to behave like this.

Check out the background of members of the government - the majority come from wealthy privialaged backgrounds, and many are related to immigrants to the UK from the 19th and 20th centuries. That they now wish to discriminate against others from different countries, or based on wealth speaks volumes.

[Baerboxer]

Programmes such as Border Force and regular stories of restaurants etc found to be employing visa abusers tend to support the general view in the UK that the system is open to abuse.

Whether a person is stamped out is irrelevant as over stayer's tend to disappear and there is not enough manpower to discover them until they surface working illegally or are arrested for petty crime.

If you stamp people in and stamp then out, then with computer technology, you can compile a list of overstayers very easily. How would this be irrelevant to identifying overstayers? Why do you think most countries stamp in and out?

The whole process needs reviewing, but that entails expense and intelligence. Unfortunately the current UK government don't have a surplus of either.

[Jay Sata]

Thailand stamps people in and out but you still read of long term overstayers on this forum. Us expats are not allowed to work in Thailand but how many foreign beer bars are there in Thailand?

If you want to retire to Thailand on a retirement visa then you have to deposit a substantial sum in a Thai bank.

Most students coming to the UK from outside the EEC come from relatively wealthy families. There are very strict academic barriers which now weed out most of the bogus applications.

One of the biggest weapons of the UK Border Force is the ability to impose £10,000 penalties on employers exploiting visa over stayers.

[jrtmedic]

"Good thinking - let's kill off all overseas students coming to the UK"

Absolutely ! Lets close all the one room "English Language " schools in Whitechapel and places like Bournemouth !

Lets close "Universities" such as London Metropolitan University who allegedly have been complicit in visa fraud.

Russell group universities will not have a problem --- they have sophisticated means of fraud detection and their students arrive with the sole intention of studying !

OldGit

I am sorry about creating a problem for you with my DM sandwich comment !

However , I remain convinced they continue to walk amongst us !

Edited June 24, 2013 by jrtmedic

[7by7]

Thailand stamps people in and out but you still read of long term overstayers on this forum. Us expats are not allowed to work in Thailand but how many foreign beer bars are there in Thailand?

If you want to retire to Thailand on a retirement visa then you have to deposit a substantial sum in a Thai bank.

There will always be people who break the rules; but stamping people out of the UK and imposing overstay fines will be a start and deter or catch some.

You do not have to deposit a substantial sum into a Thai bank in order to retire; you can qualify on income.

But I thought we were discussing the UK? Just because some countries have systems which are unfair and discriminatory does not mean the UK should do the same!

Most students coming to the UK from outside the EEC come from relatively wealthy families. There are very strict academic barriers which now weed out most of the bogus applications.

Given the cost of fees etc. your first sentence is probably correct. But as has been pointed out earlier, many genuine universities are concerned that the current high cost of coming to the UK to study means that many foreign students are now going elsewhere.

Having them front up an extra £3000 is only going to encourage more to do the same; go elsewhere.

Your second sentence is not exactly correct; you really should familiarise yourself with the requirements before you comment on them.

Start here.

Edited June 24, 2013 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

What section of that are you referring to?

I can tell you that for UK students a university education is expensive.

Pro rata students from some of the poorer parts of the world are going to

need family who can afford sending them here or they would not consider it.

My other son went to UCLA in California. Apart from the expense the USA imposes

much more stringent entry requirements.

I'm not sure if you are aware of this but until a few years ago so called students were entering the UK to study at bogus one room 'colleges' in Whitechapel and allowed to bring their family with them. Suffice to say many disappeared.

Bonding is an effective way of controlling visitors to the UK who may wish to come here for economic reasons.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

All of it.

[jrtmedic]

I admire your patience !

I would have answered in a much more robust manner and long ago have lost my posting privileges!

[7by7]

Especially as he edits his posts after they have been replied to!

Jay Sata, in reply to your edit:

I have a daughter currently at university; it is expensive, but her student loan covers her tuition fees, rent and basic living expenses; ever heard of them? (Yes, I know she will have to pay it back; but only when she starts to earn above a certain income.)

Before student loans, British students got grants to cover their living costs and did not pay tuition fees; still the case in Scotland.

It appears you knowledge of student finance is as lacking as your knowledge of the immigration rules!

I am glad you son went to UCLA, if he did, but what's that got to do with it? We are talking about the UK. Most foreign students who would have previously come here are now going to European countries or, if they want an Anglo phone education, Australasia.

I am aware that many bogus language schools existed, all over the UK, not just a specific part of London. That is why criteria for student visas and the checks on sponsoring educational institutions have been tightened up over the years.

People who want to enter the UK for economic reasons? Do you mean workers, who already have to satisfy strict criteria? Read up on that after you've finished the student information.

As previously said, a bond system wont deter those who want to enter the UK for criminal purposes; a small price to pay for the profits they expect to yield.

[Jay Sata]

As you appear to have the answer to immigration problems why not write to Mrs May and let her know where she is going wrong.

In my opinion she is making moves that are fair and reflect public sentiment.

[7by7]

I did make a lengthy submission to the Parliamentary review, whether May and her department pay any attention to the recommendations of that review we will have to wait and see.

Public sentiment?

Well, she is certainly pandering to the extreme right wing, but, to be frank, I doubt if the majority give a toss on this issue one way or another!

Until those that work in education or leisure start to lose their jobs because the students and tourists have stopped coming.

Edited June 24, 2013 by 7by7

[bangon04]

Programmes such as Border Force and regular stories of restaurants etc found to be employing visa abusers tend to support the general view in the UK that the system is open to abuse.

Whether a person is stamped out is irrelevant as over stayer's tend to disappear and there is not enough manpower to discover them until they surface working illegally or are arrested for petty crime.

and then apparently they are released to disappear yet again. All they have to do is throw away their passport. Such programmes do little to reassure the Daily Mail reader that the government (any government) has its immigration priorities in order. If the official fine for employing an illegal worker is 10000 GBP per worker, then enforce it. Reduce demand in order to reduce supply...That would soon add up in the kitty and be self funding

[bangon04]

I did make a lengthy submission to the Parliamentary review, whether May and her department pay any attention to the recommendations of that review we will have to wait and see.

Public sentiment?

Well, she is certainly pandering to the extreme right wing, but, to be frank, I doubt if the majority give a toss on this issue one way or another!

Until those that work in education or leisure start to lose their jobs because the students and tourists have stopped coming.

If you ask the owner of a private UK school teaching English as a foreign language, you might get the strong impression that it is already happening.

[jrtmedic]

The owners of private UK schools "teaching" English were charging money for non -attendance at school and facilitating visa fraud !

Which is why they have been and are being closed down !

[Waterloo]

The owners of private UK schools "teaching" English were charging money for non -attendance at school and facilitating visa fraud !

Which is why they have been and are being closed down !

Indeed & the legitimate establishments keep accuarate attendance records which are audited.

My wife originaly entered the country as a student & the college she studied at had severale visits & audits to check it was not facilitating illegal immigration.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Waterloo

[bangon04]

The owners of private UK schools "teaching" English were charging money for non -attendance at school and facilitating visa fraud !

Which is why they have been and are being closed down !

Yes that is true - many were and deserved to be closed down. But the bona fide schools are also being penalised - and a lot of people are losing money because of it. Take a quick look at facebook.com/VisasForTheUk for some examples of nonsense enforcement. A businessman who already has a visa and is already in the UK cannot take a course in business English while he is in the UK. He must go home and reapply... Edited June 24, 2013 by bangon04

[Waterloo]

As has said by others this measure will do nothing to deter the illegals it will simply be factored into there calculations on profit margin, it will just penalise the genuine visitors as usual and present a massive own goal regarding income from students & visitors alike.

But what do you expect from a system that does not even count people out of the country, even Thailand manages do doe that, a country some on here consider third world.

[7by7]

The owners of private UK schools "teaching" English were charging money for non -attendance at school and facilitating visa fraud !

Which is why they have been and are being closed down !

Some were.

But the majority were, and still are, legitimate and meet all the requirements to enable them to sponsor and accept foreign students.

[sustento]

I wonder what the reaction would be if Thailand reciprocated and required ALL visitors from the UK to get a visa even for a 2 week holiday? What if it required them to pay a 150,000Bt bond if the were granted that visa? I can hazard a good guess what the reaction on Thaivisa would be.

[Jay Sata]

I wonder what the reaction would be if Thailand reciprocated and required ALL visitors from the UK to get a visa even for a 2 week holiday? What if it required them to pay a 150,000Bt bond if the were granted that visa? I can hazard a good guess what the reaction on Thaivisa would be.

All visitors to Thailand require a visa. Most holidaymakers are granted a visa on arrival. There is no financial incentive for the majority to remain in the country.

However to answer your question there are plenty of nice warm countries with great beaches a 12 hour flight from the UK

and many are cheaper.