Reversing Diabetes (Type 2)

[mommysboy]

I tend towards high blood sugar and have needed second tests before now. I notice my all round health, perhaps not mental well being, improves when I fast and slim down.

I wonder what effect this would have on diabetes. Would fasting provoke a crisis? Otherwise I am sure it would be beneficial.

Dieting fails generally because it is such a matter of will that sooner or later the most determined relapse. So it strikes me a policy of denial followed by moderate indulgence of all that we find worthwhile would be better.

Once or twice a week I simply do not eat for ages and perhaps then just have a bowl of cornflakes. It is a bit uncomfortable but also strangely elevating.

I guess diabetics need to pay attention to types of food, and maybe fasting alone would not work, but I can see how the age old rule of starving out the bad if you like could fit and am not surprised the experimental treatment worked.

I guess science has the answers but Doubt anybody would be able to stick to a regimented solution, moderation it seems is the most immoderate thing in the world, and many like myself chaif under its constraints.

[chiang mai]

I don't agree, as soon as I found out that I was pre-diabetic I went on a diet and dropped from 90 kilo's to 82 in about six weeks, the next five kilo's took a further month, There's nothing in this world that will ever make me gain more than two kilo's at maximum, absolutely nothing and it's not hard to do. Ditch the bread, potatoes, rice, cakes/cookies and soft drinks, no refined carbs and only low glycemic foods.

[paleodoc]

Yes, I am and yes it is......this is becoming a really high quality thread.

[jrtmedic]

People may have more confidence if you were to post your GMC number --------

Edited June 28, 2013 by jrtmedic

[chiang mai]

Yes, I am and yes it is......this is becoming a really high quality thread.

Post one link to a reliable medical source such as the Mayo Clinic or similar that confirms your claim that Diabetes Type II can be reversed, if you are unable to provide that proof I expect you to cease your claims.

[paleodoc]

"Vegan diets also apparently work and they eat a lot of carbs and not huge amounts of protein. So the diets are almost opposite yet get the same results?

I am interest in the theory that trans fatty acids, saturated fat, margarine, and hydrogenated oils are perhaps the bigger culprits in the diabetes type 2 epidemic but have been largely overlooked with much more focus on sugar and refined carbs ?"

Good point about the vegan diets. Eating a 'real' food diet and thereby less sugar and fewer processed carbs, means a more healthful diet. That is why I mentioned that any diet that results in weight loss will improve glycaemic control. Lose enough weight and the diabetes may be improved to such and extent that meds can be reduced. I think that the LCKD offers benefits over and above this, although I no of no study that directly compares these two diets. Overall, there is large and growing body of evidence to suggest that a restricted carb diet is as good as any if not better.

I completely agree about the polyunsaturated fats and oils. But not about the saturated fat or monounsaturates.

[chiang mai]

Post 28 above cites an article in the Guardian newspaper, an extract of which follows:

"I waited two months to be sure, but on 24 September last year it was confirmed. Following a fasting glucose test at my surgery, my doctor declared: "The diabetes has resolved itself." My glucose level was 5.1mmol/L, well below the diabetes mark of 6".

I'm somewhat surprised that the Guardian has allowed that statement to stand because it gives credence to the notion that Type II Diabetes can be reversed and the patient cured and this is clearly not possible at this point in time. One clue in the above para. is that a fasting blood glucose test or indeed even an A1C test would not be capable of determining whether the Diabetes had indeed been resolved, a glucose absorbancy rate test would however although this appears to have escaped the reporters pen, unfortunate because that would be the proof required to make the case very firmly.

In fact the key phrase in the article doesn't appear until the end and this part I certainly agree is fact:

"Scientists are cautious, and research is continuing, but evidence is growing that the diet can indeed remove the symptoms of type 2 diabetes. The question for researchers, who are now working on identifying the type of diet that can keep diabetes at bay after reversal, is once we've beaten the condition"",

[paleodoc]

Yes, I am and yes it is......this is becoming a really high quality thread.

Post one link to a reliable medical source such as the Mayo Clinic or similar that confirms your claim that Diabetes Type II can be reversed, if you are unable to provide that proof I expect you to cease your claims.

Low-Carbohydrate Diet Review: Shifting the Paradigm. Adele H. Hite, MAT; Valerie Goldstein Berkowitz, MS, RD, CDE; and Keith Berkowitz, MD, MBA (Nutr Clin Pract. 2011;26:300-308)

This is a good starting point for your edification. If you are open minded enough to read it, you may learn something. At least the argument/debate will be progressed a little more than "no your not and no it isn't"

Oh, by the way, the Mayo Clinic may be useful to get an overview on any number of medical topics, but you won't find much on their site about this topic. The ultimate reliable source is the scientific literature. Looking forward to your reply...after you have put your reading glasses on.

[chiang mai]

Yes, I am and yes it is......this is becoming a really high quality thread.

Post one link to a reliable medical source such as the Mayo Clinic or similar that confirms your claim that Diabetes Type II can be reversed, if you are unable to provide that proof I expect you to cease your claims.

Low-Carbohydrate Diet Review: Shifting the Paradigm. Adele H. Hite, MAT; Valerie Goldstein Berkowitz, MS, RD, CDE; and Keith Berkowitz, MD, MBA (Nutr Clin Pract. 2011;26:300-308)

This is a good starting point for your edification. If you are open minded enough to read it, you may learn something. At least the argument/debate will be progressed a little more than "no your not and no it isn't"

Oh, by the way, the Mayo Clinic may be useful to get an overview on any number of medical topics, but you won't find much on their site about this topic. The ultimate reliable source is the scientific literature. Looking forward to your reply...after you have put your reading glasses on.

The link you posted does not support your claim that Diabetes Type II is reversible and I expect you to retract it, What the link does support is, "LC diets as a viable option to aid in reversing diabetes mellitus, risk factors for heart disease, and the epidemic of obesity".

And your GMC number is?

EDIT: And here's the link for the Mayo Clinic, please trawl the site and point out where it says that Diabetes Type II can be cured/reversed.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/type-2-diabetes/DS00585/DSECTION=treatments-and-drugs

Edited June 28, 2013 by chiang mai

[paleodoc]

People may have more confidence if you were to post your GMC number --------

You quote yours and I will quote mine.

Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant to the message and the evidence. But Univ Manchester 1982-88. Then RAMC. MRCP 1993. then completed specialist training in Manchester. First consultant post in 1997. I mentioned my qualifications (senior medic) not to laud it over other contributors but to suggest that I had some understanding of the topic.

Being a doctor should not reassure anyone about authority to pronounce on nutritional topics. The vast majority of doctors know zilch about this. My knowledge comes from a long standing interest and a great deal of study in the subject area.

[paleodoc]

Yes, I am and yes it is......this is becoming a really high quality thread.

Post one link to a reliable medical source such as the Mayo Clinic or similar that confirms your claim that Diabetes Type II can be reversed, if you are unable to provide that proof I expect you to cease your claims.

Low-Carbohydrate Diet Review: Shifting the Paradigm. Adele H. Hite, MAT; Valerie Goldstein Berkowitz, MS, RD, CDE; and Keith Berkowitz, MD, MBA (Nutr Clin Pract. 2011;26:300-308)

This is a good starting point for your edification. If you are open minded enough to read it, you may learn something. At least the argument/debate will be progressed a little more than "no your not and no it isn't"

Oh, by the way, the Mayo Clinic may be useful to get an overview on any number of medical topics, but you won't find much on their site about this topic. The ultimate reliable source is the scientific literature. Looking forward to your reply...after you have put your reading glasses on.

The link you posted does not support your claim that Diabetes Type II is reversible and I expect you to retract it, What the link does support is, "LC diets as a viable option to aid in reversing diabetes mellitus, risk factors for heart disease, and the epidemic of obesity".

And your GMC number is?

EDIT: And here's the link for the Mayo Clinic, please trawl the site and point out where it says that Diabetes Type II can be cured/reversed.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/type-2-diabetes/DS00585/DSECTION=treatments-and-drugs

Wow! You're a quick reader!!!! Happy to reply when you have something useful to debate.

[chiang mai]

Here's a site that folks should review, expecially our posting "MD":

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/Fake-diabetes-cures-.html

Particular attention should be paid to the section entitled, "Don't Jepordise Your Health", the following extract is relevant:

"The really insidious nature of such claims is that it can urge diabetics to jeopardise their health by going off their medication, normal diet, or exercise routine".

[chiang mai]

Post one link to a reliable medical source such as the Mayo Clinic or similar that confirms your claim that Diabetes Type II can be reversed, if you are unable to provide that proof I expect you to cease your claims.

Yes, I am and yes it is......this is becoming a really high quality thread.

Low-Carbohydrate Diet Review: Shifting the Paradigm. Adele H. Hite, MAT; Valerie Goldstein Berkowitz, MS, RD, CDE; and Keith Berkowitz, MD, MBA (Nutr Clin Pract. 2011;26:300-308)

This is a good starting point for your edification. If you are open minded enough to read it, you may learn something. At least the argument/debate will be progressed a little more than "no your not and no it isn't"

Oh, by the way, the Mayo Clinic may be useful to get an overview on any number of medical topics, but you won't find much on their site about this topic. The ultimate reliable source is the scientific literature. Looking forward to your reply...after you have put your reading glasses on.

The link you posted does not support your claim that Diabetes Type II is reversible and I expect you to retract it, What the link does support is, "LC diets as a viable option to aid in reversing diabetes mellitus, risk factors for heart disease, and the epidemic of obesity".

And your GMC number is?

EDIT: And here's the link for the Mayo Clinic, please trawl the site and point out where it says that Diabetes Type II can be cured/reversed.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/type-2-diabetes/DS00585/DSECTION=treatments-and-drugs

Wow! You're a quick reader!!!! Happy to reply when you have something useful to debate.

You and I have nothing to debate but I remain interested to see you improve your credibility by posting your GMC number, others can review the links provided and decide what they want to believe based on the evidence provided and the sources of it.

Mods: is it now TV policy to let these sorts of false claims remain?

[SinglePot]

partington

Thank you. However, it should be noted that this was a very small study and the paper you reference is both academic and scientific.

Recognising the highly technical nature of the reference would suggest that it is beyond the comprehension of most ordinary people (me included ! )

Whilst interesting, the outcome of the research does not suggest a reversal of Type11 diabetes is achievable for every person so affected. The severely restricted diet should also not be undertaken without VERY close medical supervision.

Perhaps this study will be repeated, perhaps in many places - although I have doubts because the necessary supervision required would make this a very expensive project.

Yes totally agree with all your points. The dietary restrictions are extreme, and almost unachievable for most people.

I also agree with you that the study was on so few people that it could even turn out to be a statistical fluke.

On the other hand, this is such an interesting result, I really hope that it is followed up in larger cohort studies. The idea that type 2 diabetes is really caused by fat accumulation in pancreatic beta cells, and that drastic reduction in fat deposits in very specific tissues can reverse this condition seems really groundbreaking to me. Is it true? I don't know.

But really hopeful I think...

Need to understand that diet cannot reverse Type II diabetes, although in many people diet alone can fully control it. There's a difference.

Actually in the paper, reversal, ie restoration of both normal beta cell function and hepatic insulin sensitivity, is what they claim is occurring.

I know, amazing, but the limited data supports it!

interesting

Obesity well known risk factor for type 2

causative?

Edited June 28, 2013 by SinglePot

[paleodoc]

I tend towards high blood sugar and have needed second tests before now. I notice my all round health, perhaps not mental well being, improves when I fast and slim down.

I wonder what effect this would have on diabetes. Would fasting provoke a crisis? Otherwise I am sure it would be beneficial.

Dieting fails generally because it is such a matter of will that sooner or later the most determined relapse. So it strikes me a policy of denial followed by moderate indulgence of all that we find worthwhile would be better.

Once or twice a week I simply do not eat for ages and perhaps then just have a bowl of cornflakes. It is a bit uncomfortable but also strangely elevating.

I guess diabetics need to pay attention to types of food, and maybe fasting alone would not work, but I can see how the age old rule of starving out the bad if you like could fit and am not surprised the experimental treatment worked.

I guess science has the answers but Doubt anybody would be able to stick to a regimented solution, moderation it seems is the most immoderate thing in the world, and many like myself chaif under its constraints.

Fasting may have a number of benefits, but is not an easy path to follow for most of us. Intermittent fasting seems to make you feel better and is now becoming a popular way to lose/maintain weight. Your choice of cornflakes is an interesting one. It is a high carb meal with very little nutrition apart from the milk. Maybe a boiled egg????

[chiang mai]

People may have more confidence if you were to post your GMC number --------

You quote yours and I will quote mine.

I don't claim to be a doctor, you do, so post your proof!

[paleodoc]

Here is the quick rationale for the claim that effective dieting but in particular a LCKD can 'reverse' 'cure' 'control' Type 2DM.

The diagnosis is made when blood glucose is elevated over a period of time ( at least 2 measures and it is better that one of these should be a fasting measurement). By reducing the principal stimulus for insulin secretion (raised blood glucose) insulin is reduced. The dietary macronutrient that raises blood glucose the most is carbohydrate (dietary protein and some amino acids in particular also stimulate insulin secretion but to a much smaller degree). Over time, by restricting dietary carbohydrate (less than 50 g/day is a reasonable goal), blood glucose is reduced to normal (lots and lots of evidence for this). When blood glucose is normal there is no type 2 DM...it has gone. Sure, the predisposition remains and dietary carbs will bring it back PDQ. But eliminate the carbs and in most patients (not all...in some the pancreas eventually packs in!), the condition is 'reversed', 'cured'.

[paleodoc]

Here's a site that folks should review, expecially our posting "MD":

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/Fake-diabetes-cures-.html

Particular attention should be paid to the section entitled, "Don't Jepordise Your Health", the following extract is relevant:

"The really insidious nature of such claims is that it can urge diabetics to jeopardise their health by going off their medication, normal diet, or exercise routine".

Meds not reduced until blood sugar is controlled and then only under medical supervision. Exercise should be continued...lifelong! What is a "normal diet" for a type 2 diabetic?? It is usually a 'low fat' version with far too many carbs in it. What jeopardises their health is precisely this "normal" diet.

[paleodoc]

Just to clarify a few points. I am a senior UK MD with an interest in nutrition and currently studying for an MSc in Nutrition.

Type 2 DM can indeed be reversed...cured by diet. The individual's predisposition remains but the condition (chronically elevated blood glucose levels) goes away. Any diet will achieve this if sufficient body weight (body fat) is lost. But, a low carbohydrate ketogenic diet (LCKD) is the most effective and sensible to try for those with this condition. There are numerous references for this and I would be happy to provide some of them, if you are interested.

The usual references to 'eating too much and exercising too little'. In essence, probably true, but of no real help to any individual with this condition. The problem for most is that they eat too much of the very foods that cause the problem which is insulin resistance. Too much insulin is produced and secreted over a long period of time, leading to the body's tissues (initially the liver and muscle) to resist insulin signalling. Which foods do this? Carbohydrate containing foods are the biggest stimulators of insulin (by a mile!). Processed carbs and those high on the glycaemic index are the worst offenders.

A well formulated LCKD will help the individual with type 2 DM to lose weight and rapidly improve glycaemic ('Blood sugar') control. This initially reduces the need for medication and many individuals can stop medication altogether (when blood sugar is back within normal limits).

I also find this claim a little strange. In the UK doctors are not called MDs, this is a US terminology. (The MD in the UK is research degree like a Ph.D) Plus paleo is the name of a more or less faddy type of diet, so the poster's screen name may be a sign that maybe this poster is stretching the truth a bit?

The reasons why people develop insulin resistance leading to type 2 diabetes are still not fully understood, even by leading researchers in the field. However it is clear that the increase in insulin production in the early stages of diabetes is a response to insulin resistance, not its cause. In other words because insulin resistance has developed in peripheral tissues, mainly muscle, glucose is not transported effectively into those tissues, so blood glucose becomes elevated. As a response to this, the pancreas starts to make and secrete more and more insulin, and this increase can overcome the insulin resistance , normalising blood glucose.

However the need to secrete higher and higher amounts of insulin to normalise blood sugar in some way eventually harms the pancreas, and insulin production can no longer be sustained at these unusually elevated levels and falls, resulting in uncontrolled increases in blood glucose. At the point where your pancreas is damaged you have frank type 2 diabetes, and this cannot be reversed by diet.

It all depends what you mean by reverse. I think you guys are arguing at cross purposes.

The other poster mentioned you can reverse the high blood sugar levels which is true and look at this from the diabetes UK website. You need to distinguish between reverse and cure.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/reversing-diabetes.html

Reversing Diabetes

Type 2 diabetes medication dependency can be reversed with a change in health and lifestyle choices

Also see:

• Type 2 diabetes
• Newcastle Study: 600 cal diet
• Foods which help diabetes

Reversing diabetes is a term used to describe interventions that reduce dependency on type 2 diabetes medications, effectively reversing the progression of the illness.

With time and dedication, type 2 diabetes can be reversed and the results can be very rewarding with less tiredness and better all round health.

Loss of body weight can be particularly beneficial in helping to reverse the progression of diabetes.

In some cases, people may find they are able to come off medication, although blood sugar levels should be checked regularly as reversing progression of diabetes is not a cure.

Do not come off medication unless advised to by your healthcare team.

Here are some interesting stories from people who tried the starvation method and maintain that they are 'cured'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/may/12/type-2-diabetes-diet-cure

Good post. Interesting points Going off to work now. But will respond to this later.

[chiang mai]

Here is the quick rationale for the claim that effective dieting but in particular a LCKD can 'reverse' 'cure' 'control' Type 2DM.

The diagnosis is made when blood glucose is elevated over a period of time ( at least 2 measures and it is better that one of these should be a fasting measurement). By reducing the principal stimulus for insulin secretion (raised blood glucose) insulin is reduced. The dietary macronutrient that raises blood glucose the most is carbohydrate (dietary protein and some amino acids in particular also stimulate insulin secretion but to a much smaller degree). Over time, by restricting dietary carbohydrate (less than 50 g/day is a reasonable goal), blood glucose is reduced to normal (lots and lots of evidence for this). When blood glucose is normal there is no type 2 DM...it has gone. Sure, the predisposition remains and dietary carbs will bring it back PDQ. But eliminate the carbs and in most patients (not all...in some the pancreas eventually packs in!), the condition is 'reversed', 'cured'.

You now start to intermingle words such as reverse, cure and control without stating what you mean, each of those words ha s a specific definition, which one do you intend to use?

As for the rest of it: eat a low carb diet and the symptoms will disappear, stay on the low carb diet and the symptoms will permanently disappear (if you don't die from failure of the pancreas first), that's sheer genius I would say!

May I suggest you read the diabetics bible, found here: http://www.bloodsugar101.com/

[SinglePot]

all very interesting.

Let me put this into the melting pot.

Asian population have for centuries eaten a high carb diet, rice being the staple food. Much less protein and fat than western diet.

T2DM in the Asian population was rare 20 years ago.

1 in 10 Chinese now have it, and it's increasing fast.

Why?

Western diet, sedentary life style ( drive car not walk or ride bike)?

Maybe it's as simple as as affluence increases they eat more.

Calorie intake sounds like a good thing. High carb rice diet looks ok if you don't over do it.

[jrtmedic]

"1 in 10 Chinese now have it, and it's increasing fast".

Its the dreaded MacD burger and that disgusting KFC stuff that masquerades as chicken !

Edit -------Forgot to mention the revolting Dunkin D's !

Edited June 28, 2013 by jrtmedic

[SinglePot]

probably multifactorial

Big Macs and kfcs are definitely not doing them any favours

[cdnvic]

Type 2 can indeed go into a remission of sorts, but to say "cured" is inaccurate.

Also, we have no way of verifying anyone's qualifications here so please cite credible peer-reviewed studies as your source rather than alleged qualifications.

[Tolley]

"1 in 10 Chinese now have it, and it's increasing fast".

Its the dreaded MacD burger and that disgusting KFC stuff that masquerades as chicken !

Edit -------Forgot to mention the revolting Dunkin D's !

Yes which brings back my earlier post that maybe is it the bad fats that it is the big culprit and not so much the bad carbs and sugar? The bad fats not breaking down and accumulating in the liver/ pancreas.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Tolley

[chiang mai]

I can see that we're goingt o get ourselves into even further difficulty with these terms so, for the avoidance of doubt:

Cure and Remission are here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cure

Manage and Control is here http://ndep.nih.gov/publications/PublicationDetail.aspx?PubId=28#whatdoesitmean

[SinglePot]

"1 in 10 Chinese now have it, and it's increasing fast". Its the dreaded MacD burger and that disgusting KFC stuff that masquerades as chicken ! Edit -------Forgot to mention the revolting Dunkin D's !

Yes which brings back my earlier post that maybe is it the bad fats that it is the big culprit and not so much the bad carbs and sugar? The bad fats not breaking down and accumulating in the liver/ pancreas.

possibly

References:

1. Odegaard et al. Diabetes Care 34:880–885, 2011.

2. McDonalds Managers Guide 1955: ' Getting customers to buy more.' (Recently updated and translated into Mandarin.)

Ain't you Just Loving It

[paleodoc]

I use the word 'cure' advisedly. I think reversal means the same but I'm happy to stick with cure if it avoids confusion. 'Controlling' type 2 DM to me means improving glycaemic control to an 'appropriate' level ( usually agreed between patient and doctor). A LCKD will control blood glucose and in some (many!) will cure the diabetes. The individuals predisposition to the condition remains. Cured by a lifestyle change. No Doctors!

[sustento]

Here is the quick rationale for the claim that effective dieting but in particular a LCKD can 'reverse' 'cure' 'control' Type 2DM.

The diagnosis is made when blood glucose is elevated over a period of time ( at least 2 measures and it is better that one of these should be a fasting measurement).

That is not how a diagnosis of diabetes is made in the UK.

[SinglePot]

Anybody want to comment on these 2 facts in the context of the OP?

1. BMI. T2DM is seen in people who have a high BMI. T2DM is also seen in people who are not overweight. Lean people with T2DM usually have parents who had the problem. Genetic predisposition.

2. Prediabetes and Impaired Glucose Tolerance, are seen often many years before T2DM is officially diagnosed.

Think we ought to leave it up to the experts eh?