Australia - New PM?

[Will27]

Kevin Rudd has just announced that anyone arriving by boat from this day, claiming to be refugees will "NOT" be resettled in Australia. They will be resettled in Papua New Guinea.

Hardline and big news and may cause some waves internationally. Something had to be done tho.

Has it actually been formally agreed by PNG govenment? If so how much will it be costing Australian tax payers to have refugees processed & re-settled in PNG; it will not be for free. Polls have identified the majority of Australian voters support fair & reasonable treatment of refugees, that this move definately contradicts

Your right it will impact upon Australia's standing in the international community and possibly impact Australia's influence in it's role for two years as a non-permanent member UN Security Council.

In the meantime it was confirmed Indonesia will stop Iranians receiving a visa on arrival in the South-East Asian nation, at the request of Mr Rudd. A better and more sophisticated approach than shipping them to PNG

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/refugees-to-be-resettled-in-third-world/story-e6frfku9-1226681741330#ixzz2ZTJ7RD22

Yes, fair and reasonable treatment once they've been assessed as refugee's of course. But I think Joe average would like to see the tidal wave stop. I know I would.

[samran]

Australia will still take refugees and this is a plan to stop the smugglers profiting and people risking their lives. PNG is still a developing country and can't afford refugees so I guess the Australian tax payers will still be paying their resettlement bill there, they just won't be living in Sydney or Melbourne. The real refugee will just be happy to get another home but the economic refugee will be really pissed off at this move.

surely then you just weed out the economic refugees and send them back like we already do?

Why bribe a tinpot ex.colony just to the north of us, and pay over the odds for resettling them in a turd hole otherwise known as PNG if they are real refugee's? I'd rather them in Australia contributing frankly.

I agree with you but this is an election ploy and the boat people issue will / may decide the election. Some how I can see a lot of conflict in say 5 yrs between the refugees and the PNG people. A lot of expat aussies living there live in homes surrounded by high fences with 24/7 security for safety. Not really safe for them to walk the streets alone especially white women.

He never had my vote, but I'm even less inclined to vote for him given these antics. He's kind of saying: don't come by boat cause its dangerous, but if you do make it, we will send you to a place with one of the highest murder rates in the world. And just for the women, don't forget you'll be being sent to one of the r@pe capitals of the world.

You are right, this is pure politics and pandering to a vocal, but electorally important minority. But with a nasty, nasty consequence for those who are left hang out to dry.

[chooka]

You have certain agreements about the treatment of refugees and asylum seekers and this seems like it certainly breaks those agreements. How can you determine who is a refugee without screening them? How can you make PNG take someone who is a refugee? Is PNG a signatory to the UN conventions on Refugees.

They will be screened in PNG and PNG has agreed to resettle them, Australia will pay the bill tho. Rudd just made the announcement after a meeting with the PNG P.M

Edited July 19, 2013 by chooka

[simple1]

You have certain agreements about the treatment of refugees and asylum seekers and this seems like it certainly breaks those agreements. How can you determine who is a refugee without screening them? How can you make PNG take someone who is a refugee? Is PNG a signatory to the UN conventions on Refugees.

An excellent question and taking into account the current legal framework in PNG for refugees, unless updated by legislation, the policy decision may well be overturned by the Australian High Court, as was a previous attempt by Labor to ship refugees to Malaysia for processing. Note currently UNHCR does not have a office in PNG.

Papua New Guinea is a signatory to the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees and its 1967 Protocol (acceded 17 July 1986). However, The 1978 Migration Act (as amended in 1989) permits the Minister to “determine a non-citizen to be a refugee”; however, there is no specific refugee legislation or administrative provisions relating to the determination of refugee status.

As Samran mentioned the Oz government will in effect pay a bribe to PNG to accept the refugees. Be interesting to see if the Oz government will share the cost/benefit analysis underpinning the proposed policy

Edited July 19, 2013 by simple1

[Old Croc]

You have certain agreements about the treatment of refugees and asylum seekers and this seems like it certainly breaks those agreements. How can you determine who is a refugee without screening them? How can you make PNG take someone who is a refugee? Is PNG a signatory to the UN conventions on Refugees.

They'll still be processed the same way by Australia, but they will all be held in the expanded PNG processing centre instead of places like Xmas Island.

PNG is not being made to take them, more like bribed.

PNG is a signatory (17/7/1986)

[simple1]

You have certain agreements about the treatment of refugees and asylum seekers and this seems like it certainly breaks those agreements. How can you determine who is a refugee without screening them? How can you make PNG take someone who is a refugee? Is PNG a signatory to the UN conventions on Refugees.

They'll still be processed the same way by Australia, but they will all be held in the expanded PNG processing centre instead of places like Xmas Island.

PNG is not being made to take them, more like bribed.

PNG is a signatory (17/7/1986)

Yes a signatory, but there is no specific refugee legislation or administrative provisions relating to the determination of refugee status. How long before there will be a High Court case launched to review the legality of the decision under Human rights conventions?

[Scott]

There are maritime regulations about intercepting boats on the high seas. I don't recall exactly what some of these are but I do know that during the Vietnamese refugee crisis, boats could not be intercepted and sent to a country other than their destination. They sometimes had to be given water and provisions and then sent on their merry way.

I have a feeling this one might just fail the litmus test unless you have a boat load of asylum seekers who say "hey, we want to go to PNG."

[Will27]

I'm thinking that it's not going to matter to Rudd whether or not the decision get's over-turned or not.

Whatever happens, it won't be until after the election. But he knows that the statement is a possible game-

changer for the election.

Pretty smart politics I think.

[simple1]

The bribe, in exchange for PNG's agreement, Australia will fund further aid initiatives.

- These include redeveloping a major referral hospital in Lae, PNG's second largest city, and assisting with its long-term management.

- Australia will also supply half the funding to reform PNG's university sector

- in 2014 implement the recommendations of an Australia-PNG education review.

- support professional management teams in health, education and law and order.

Australia stands ready to assist PNG further with other development needs in the future," Mr Rudd said

[Chao Lao Beach]

The Malaysian Swap would have been much better for all concerned, it was just political power plays that stopped it.

Aust will be paying PNG for sure, but this will stop the large majority. A GENUINE refugee will be happy to be anywhere safe. Personally give me Malaysia anytime over PNG. I have been to PNG many times and had employers that were experienced there "look after us", I would not like to live there on my own bat to be honest.

I read today a Poll that Turnball would be all over Rudd, I don't mind Turnball actually but that Abbot nutter is a total freak show IMHO.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Chao Lao Beach

[David48]

Since we are discussing the hot topic ...

Immigration

Suicide threat fuels Indonesia asylum row

THE high seas rescue of a group of asylum-seekers who threatened to kill themselves rather than be returned to Indonesia has fuelled the debate over the dangers of turning back boats.

As Labor and the Coalition yesterday continued to spar over Jakarta's attitude to the opposition policy of returning boats to Indonesian waters, The Australian can reveal an attempt to return a group of asylum-seekers was aborted last week when they threatened to kill themselves.

Instead, the captain of the merchant vessel that picked them up diverted to Christmas Island.

The Maltese-flagged oil and chemical tanker Sichem Hawk was operating under co-ordination of the Australian Maritime Safety Authority's Rescue Co-ordination Centre on Tuesday when it went to the aid of the 34 asylum-seekers and two crew in international waters between Java and Christmas Island.

Here

So essentially, the boat carrying a load of people seeking asylum got into trouble ... serious trouble at sea. They were rescued and were to be taken to the nearest port ... their departure port ... and threatened self-harm and demanded to be taken to the Australia's Christmas Island.

The rescue boats' Captain succumb to the demands and duely dropped them at Christmas Island.

They had paid their boat fare ... they wanted to be delivered!

.

[David48]

Some other news you may have not heard ...

Jakarta's visas let Iranians flow free

INDONESIA issued 6000 visas on arrival to visitors from Iran in the first four months of this year, and more than 5000 Iranian asylum-seekers have arrived in Australia since January 1.

The numbers demonstrate why Iranians' visa-on-arrival status in Indonesia is the single distinguishing factor in them becoming the largest group of asylum-seekers reaching Australia by boat.

The 5054 Iranians who arrived up to Tuesday constituted a third of all asylum-seekers to reach Australia this year.

Of the main refugee origin countries, only Iran's citizens are able to claim 30-day visas on arrival when flying into Jakarta and other Indonesian gateways.

However, there was an indication last night that the Jakarta administration was finally moving to deal with this glaring flaw in Australia-Indonesia co-operation on people-smuggling. ABC reported that Justice and Human Rights Minister Amir Syamsuddian had signed a directive making visas on arrival more difficult for Iranians to obtain.

Here

So ... basically, in Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia grant 'Visa on arrival' to other majority Muslin countries.

Kevin Rudd apparently negotiated an agreement with Indonesia to stop them issuing or making much more difficult to obtain said Visas.

.

[Chao Lao Beach]

Giggle, it was for the last election but all so true !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABtlI2Wk3Ws

[simple1]

Some other news you may have not heard ...

Jakarta's visas let Iranians flow free

INDONESIA issued 6000 visas on arrival to visitors from Iran in the first four months of this year, and more than 5000 Iranian asylum-seekers have arrived in Australia since January 1.

The numbers demonstrate why Iranians' visa-on-arrival status in Indonesia is the single distinguishing factor in them becoming the largest group of asylum-seekers reaching Australia by boat.

The 5054 Iranians who arrived up to Tuesday constituted a third of all asylum-seekers to reach Australia this year.

Of the main refugee origin countries, only Iran's citizens are able to claim 30-day visas on arrival when flying into Jakarta and other Indonesian gateways.

However, there was an indication last night that the Jakarta administration was finally moving to deal with this glaring flaw in Australia-Indonesia co-operation on people-smuggling. ABC reported that Justice and Human Rights Minister Amir Syamsuddian had signed a directive making visas on arrival more difficult for Iranians to obtain.

Here

So ... basically, in Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia grant 'Visa on arrival' to other majority Muslin countries.

Kevin Rudd apparently negotiated an agreement with Indonesia to stop them issuing or making much more difficult to obtain said Visas.

.

Don't know the reasoning for VOA for Iranians by Malaysia., but...

Indonesian government VOAs for Iranians came about in 2006 when then president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad signed deals promoting bilateral trade, investment and technology relations. The Indonesia-Australia asylum-seeker route remained dormant until the Rudd government dismantled its predecessor's anti-irregular immigration regime.The turmoil and suppression of dissent surrounding Mr Ahmadinejad's 2009 re-election caused a sudden outflow of mainly urban asylum-seekers. In 2010, Iranians became the second-largest cohort seeking refuge in Australia by boat, after Afghans. Source:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/immigration/jakartas-visas-let-iranians-flow-free/story-fn9hm1gu-1226681674102

Edited July 19, 2013 by simple1

[Old Croc]

You have certain agreements about the treatment of refugees and asylum seekers and this seems like it certainly breaks those agreements. How can you determine who is a refugee without screening them? How can you make PNG take someone who is a refugee? Is PNG a signatory to the UN conventions on Refugees.

They'll still be processed the same way by Australia, but they will all be held in the expanded PNG processing centre instead of places like Xmas Island.

PNG is not being made to take them, more like bribed.

PNG is a signatory (17/7/1986)

Yes a signatory, but there is no specific refugee legislation or administrative provisions relating to the determination of refugee status. How long before there will be a High Court case launched to review the legality of the decision under Human rights conventions?

Apparently there is something like 9000 West Papuans seeking asylum in PNG, but nothing has happened with their claims.

[BookMan]

A very clever move by Rudd.

Abbott has been going on and on and on about stopping the boats and this will effectively stop the boats. Once the current refugees are cleared from the organised smuggling pipeline the boat arrivals will become almost zero

What is Tony going to have for his soundbites now?

Furthermore, these policies being announced by Rudd the last few days indicate he has been thinking and planning for months.

Edited July 19, 2013 by BookMan

[Chao Lao Beach]

Furthermore, these policies being announced by Rudd the last few days indicate he has been thinking and planning for months.

I think many more than "months" !!! But I do agree with you.

[BookMan]

August 31 now being mooted as election date.

With Rudd you can never know though

[chooka]

Some other news you may have not heard ...

Jakarta's visas let Iranians flow free

INDONESIA issued 6000 visas on arrival to visitors from Iran in the first four months of this year, and more than 5000 Iranian asylum-seekers have arrived in Australia since January 1.

The numbers demonstrate why Iranians' visa-on-arrival status in Indonesia is the single distinguishing factor in them becoming the largest group of asylum-seekers reaching Australia by boat.

The 5054 Iranians who arrived up to Tuesday constituted a third of all asylum-seekers to reach Australia this year.

Of the main refugee origin countries, only Iran's citizens are able to claim 30-day visas on arrival when flying into Jakarta and other Indonesian gateways.

However, there was an indication last night that the Jakarta administration was finally moving to deal with this glaring flaw in Australia-Indonesia co-operation on people-smuggling. ABC reported that Justice and Human Rights Minister Amir Syamsuddian had signed a directive making visas on arrival more difficult for Iranians to obtain.

Here

So ... basically, in Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia grant 'Visa on arrival' to other majority Muslin countries.

Kevin Rudd apparently negotiated an agreement with Indonesia to stop them issuing or making much more difficult to obtain said Visas.

.

Normally to get a visa on arrival you need a passport or other documents, What happens to the passports of every single one of them before they reach Australia? I guess they destroy all their I.D before they get on the boats so Australia can't check them and they could claim to be anybody. Anyway I believe Indonesia is going to stop giving visa on arrivals to Iranians on the request of Australia.

[chooka]

You have certain agreements about the treatment of refugees and asylum seekers and this seems like it certainly breaks those agreements. How can you determine who is a refugee without screening them? How can you make PNG take someone who is a refugee? Is PNG a signatory to the UN conventions on Refugees.

Has the backing of the opposition also and Tony Abbot has personally thanked the PNG P.M for coming to the party. Indoneasia is not happy tho as they weren't consulted and are concerned they will be stuck with them if the boats don't leave.

Edited July 19, 2013 by chooka

[BookMan]

Normally to get a visa on arrival you need a passport or other documents, What happens to the passports of every single one of them before they reach Australia? I guess they destroy all their I.D before they get on the boats so Australia can't check them and they could claim to be anybody. Anyway I believe Indonesia is going to stop giving visa on arrivals to Iranians on the request of Australia.

Good point. They had their passports when they arrived in Indonesia

[BookMan]

You have certain agreements about the treatment of refugees and asylum seekers and this seems like it certainly breaks those agreements. How can you determine who is a refugee without screening them? How can you make PNG take someone who is a refugee? Is PNG a signatory to the UN conventions on Refugees.

Has the backing of the opposition also and Tony Abbot has personally thanked the PNG P.M for coming to the party.

Has he really? I'll have to catch up on the news. Abbott trying to get in on the act now

[BookMan]

You have certain agreements about the treatment of refugees and asylum seekers and this seems like it certainly breaks those agreements. How can you determine who is a refugee without screening them? How can you make PNG take someone who is a refugee? Is PNG a signatory to the UN conventions on Refugees.

Has the backing of the opposition also and Tony Abbot has personally thanked the PNG P.M for coming to the party.

Has he really? I'll have to catch up on the news. Abbott trying to get in on the act now

Found it... Abbott says

"i welcome it, but it wont work under Mr Rudd"

[Chao Lao Beach]

There will be a back log of "immigrants" who have paid a huge amount that are in "transit", paid for Oz but will lend up in PNG.

The next thing will be these same folks, going from PNG to Oz as, refugee immigrants, island hoping. But the thought of going to PNG first will make them think about all the other countries between, if they are genuine refugees.

[chooka]

You have certain agreements about the treatment of refugees and asylum seekers and this seems like it certainly breaks those agreements. How can you determine who is a refugee without screening them? How can you make PNG take someone who is a refugee? Is PNG a signatory to the UN conventions on Refugees.

Has the backing of the opposition also and Tony Abbot has personally thanked the PNG P.M for coming to the party.

Has he really? I'll have to catch up on the news. Abbott trying to get in on the act now

Found it... Abbott says

"i welcome it, but it wont work under Mr Rudd"

Poll since the P.M made the announcement

Should asylum seekers be sent to developing countries?

58882

15566

http://ninemsn.com.au/?ocid=ninemsnhomepagelink0513&rf=true

[simple1]

There will be a back log of "immigrants" who have paid a huge amount that are in "transit", paid for Oz but will lend up in PNG.

The next thing will be these same folks, going from PNG to Oz as, refugee immigrants, island hoping. But the thought of going to PNG first will make them think about all the other countries between, if they are genuine refugees.

Rudd has claimed that all refugees/asylum seekers sent to PNG will be denied future entry to Australia. Any assessed, by PNG officials, as being refugees/asylum seekers will be resettled in PNG at Australia's cost. The question is what happens to those who decline to be resettled within PNG, will they be held indefinitely in camps in PNG?

To those who have commented of destruction of ID's after boarding ship, it has been repeatedly claimed that they are instructed to do so by the smugglers who claim it's to their advantage. Whether this is factual is irrelevant as if held in detention will dramatically increase delays for assessment or if released into the community on bridging visas are officially unable to work and have to live off welfare. It is interesting to note that refugee/asylum seeker claims have not been processed since 2012.

As someone mentioned it is "smart politics" to help Rudd get re-elected. For once I agree with Christine Milne in relation to her statement. “This is Australia’s day of shame when it comes to the treatment of refugees. The agreement that the prime minister has signed with the prime minister of PNG is ruthless and repugnant. It is in complete contravention with our moral obligations under the refugee convention.” Hopefully the policy will be reviewed in the High Court and overturned.

What Rudd had achieved with the Indonesian government to make it more difficult for Iranians to obtain entry visas was heading in the right direction. The policy agreed with PNG is ugly and diminishes Australia's stature.

[David48]

A very clever move by Rudd.

Abbott has been going on and on and on about stopping the boats and this will effectively stop the boats. Once the current refugees are cleared from the organised smuggling pipeline the boat arrivals will become almost zero

What is Tony going to have for his soundbites now?

Furthermore, these policies being announced by Rudd the last few days indicate he has been thinking and planning for months.

Quite true with all of the comments above.

He (Rudd) has really been planning this for a very long time and has made a good job of executing the populist decisions.

And has received so much media coverage the Greens are no where to be seen or heard.

They are probably making statements ... but the media is not picking up on them.

EDIT ... sorry simple1 ... I wasn't refuting what you wrote ... just read it now.

I don't know if it can be challenged in the High Court or not ... time will tell.

.

Edited July 19, 2013 by David48

[David48]

When will the boats stop?

They will stop once the people who would be seeking asylum in Australia learn that it is easier and more cost effective to another country.

How will they discover this information about Australia's new processing technique?

Currently Australia (when Gillard was PM) is advertising in targeted countries about being process off-shore and not in Australia.

But, I reckon that this form has limited appeal.

More likely local news bulletins and importantly ... social media will send the updated quickly through the networks.

We know that these systems work. One only has to look the gender and age of those seeking asylum. When the Australian government started placing women and children in 'community detention' and not in the detention centers ... the ratio and mix of refugees changed ... more women and children and significantly ... more unaccompanied children.

What does the future hold? Most likely will will see still some boats coming because the people are already in Malaysia and Indonesia, but after that, I believe that the number of people seeking settlement in Australia will slow significantly.

But where will they go?

.

[chooka]

When will the boats stop?

They will stop once the people who would be seeking asylum in Australia learn that it is easier and more cost effective to another country.

How will they discover this information about Australia's new processing technique?

Currently Australia (when Gillard was PM) is advertising in targeted countries about being process off-shore and not in Australia.

But, I reckon that this form has limited appeal.

More likely local news bulletins and importantly ... social media will send the updated quickly through the networks.

We know that these systems work. One only has to look the gender and age of those seeking asylum. When the Australian government started placing women and children in 'community detention' and not in the detention centers ... the ratio and mix of refugees changed ... more women and children and significantly ... more unaccompanied children.

What does the future hold? Most likely will will see still some boats coming because the people are already in Malaysia and Indonesia, but after that, I believe that the number of people seeking settlement in Australia will slow significantly.

But where will they go?

.

Over 1k Sri Lanka asylum seekers had their applications refused because they were found to be economic refugees and not genuine. Now Australia is seeing a large number of Vietnamese almost on par with those after the Vietnam war

[BookMan]

A very clever move by Rudd.

Abbott has been going on and on and on about stopping the boats and this will effectively stop the boats. Once the current refugees are cleared from the organised smuggling pipeline the boat arrivals will become almost zero

What is Tony going to have for his soundbites now?

Furthermore, these policies being announced by Rudd the last few days indicate he has been thinking and planning for months.

Quite true with all of the comments above.

He (Rudd) has really been planning this for a very long time and has made a good job of executing the populist decisions.

And has received so much media coverage the Greens are no where to be seen or heard.

They are probably making statements ... but the media is not picking up on them.

EDIT ... sorry simple1 ... I wasn't refuting what you wrote ... just read it now.

I don't know if it can be challenged in the High Court or not ... time will tell.

.

The Greens are getting almost no media coverage the last couple of weeks