Hasn't the minimum wage pushed up prices!

[bangkokburning]

I went back and read a bunch of much earlier comments. All of the anti union, anti human bullshit is as amusing as it is simple. Especially loved the Pol Pot reference. What most of you know about macro economics couldnt fill a can of Chang.

The world is a hugely complex place now. I find it ironic that so many of us deride workers and yet they still remain the drivers of modern consumer society.

But more than that, ehat you are saying is we dont need (want) you. If you are not x y z and a profit center,you are without worth and value. That is really sad.

As the world moves toward technology and away from.labor nations must endevour to make their populations ready for the challanges. Thailand fails miserably. There will be huge changes ahead and the technology will destroy an entire generation or more before it gets out of the gate. US is failing hard as well.

I love you all - blame the poor people. The least and the weakest among us.

Yes, you love Thailand - more like you love to exploit Thailand.

[bangkokburning]

Is not insane......commanded increases always have unseen consequences. Political interference in the market without checks and balances always leaves things out of kilter, in fact politicians should learn to keep out altogether.

The political decision to release the money supply in the West to cover up for a lack of productivity brought short term political success and a long term calamity.

We borrowed trillions and exported it to the East, then wondered what happened when the bubble burst. <deleted>

Wake up.

So you are saying that the Thai economy is "out of balance' because some tight fisted bastards now need to cough up an extra three baht an hour? Just want to be sure I understand you.

You labor under "old think" premises, you have no solutions but just deal in Reagan/Thatcher pablum and tripe.

[theblether]

Is not insane......commanded increases always have unseen consequences. Political interference in the market without checks and balances always leaves things out of kilter, in fact politicians should learn to keep out altogether.

The political decision to release the money supply in the West to cover up for a lack of productivity brought short term political success and a long term calamity.

We borrowed trillions and exported it to the East, then wondered what happened when the bubble burst. <deleted>

Wake up.

So you are saying that the Thai economy is "out of balance' because some tight fisted bastards now need to cough up an extra three baht an hour? Just want to be sure I understand you.

You labor under "old think" premises, you have no solutions but just deal in Reagan/Thatcher pablum and tripe.

Nonsense.

It's out of balance because of political interference.

Next?

[dave2]

re

It's out of balance because of political interference.

do you mean ?

dave2

[impulse]

When I was young and knew everything, I always contended that a salary increase just meant an increase on my credit card limit because it never really showed up in my paycheck as more than peanuts after taxes. But I could charge more, borrow more, and pay more every month. (Did not end well, BTW)

In the runup to the 2008 financial crisis, the price of cars, food, boats, movies, etc. did not seem to be out of step. Salaries didn't really rise and there wasn't a huge jump in the GDP. The only thing really going up was the price of houses. Coincidentally (not), banks were loaning money to all kinds of unqualified home buyers to buy those inflated houses. Too many loans (bad ones at that) chasing a finite supply of homes.

Then I read about the disturbing increase in Thai household debt, and I thinks to myself, "it's probably not that $10 a day that's tossing more money into the market than the supply of goods can absorb". Perhaps it's the banks (and loan sharks)?

Edited June 28, 2013 by impulse

[bangkokburning]

Is not insane......commanded increases always have unseen consequences. Political interference in the market without checks and balances always leaves things out of kilter, in fact politicians should learn to keep out altogether.

The political decision to release the money supply in the West to cover up for a lack of productivity brought short term political success and a long term calamity.

We borrowed trillions and exported it to the East, then wondered what happened when the bubble burst. <deleted>

Wake up.

So you are saying that the Thai economy is "out of balance' because some tight fisted bastards now need to cough up an extra three baht an hour? Just want to be sure I understand you.

You labor under "old think" premises, you have no solutions but just deal in Reagan/Thatcher pablum and tripe.

Nonsense.

It's out of balance because of political interference.

Next?

Just shows how little you know of Thailand, even less the world. This nation has had a dozen constitutions and no less than sixty PMs. Developing countries are always a seething cauldren of hot mess.

Like I said, its just "old think". To.a carpenter, every problem looks like a nail.

This crappy govt isnt any more ineffective or prone to graft and giveaeays than the dozen before that or the dozen before them.

Despite its "imbalance" its performing better than your island. Funny that no?

Edited June 28, 2013 by bangkokburning

[farang000999]

It does not take a psychologist to figure out what is the real issue/complaint.

LOL @ being upset over and blaming the 300b/day minimum wage for price increases.

[metisdead]

An off topic obfuscation post has been removed as well as all the replies to that post.

[1020]

20b hotdogs in the 7-11 (2006)

Are now up to 27b.

Fair whack that.

If only the extra money went into teaching the staff to not tying the plastic lid for the lettuce, onions and tomatoes up, as it kinda defeats the purpose of having a clear plastic lid with hinges and a handle I'd be happy. But no. It's still tied up for ease of access.

Awful country. just awful.

[Beechboy]

A major humanitarian breakthrough by a country with a poor record in such matters and designed eventually to lift a fair proportion of the working population from poverty and virtual slavery and all the usual cheapskates on here, the baht counters as I call them, can moan about is the rise in the price of a bottle of water and the such.

To justify their pique they concoct all sorts of imaginary reasons as to why such a measure is detrimental to Thai society as a whole, from workers being laid off by the thousands to the spectre of hyper-inflation. They even claim that those benefitting from such a measure will be worse off because prices will go up because of it. What codswallop! Price rises will happen of course but the butter is spread so thinly that they should be hardly noticed.

One of the many reasons for us farang breed to come to this wonderful country is the cost of living here. It's so cheap innit? Fair enough, but when that consideration becomes paramount in the existence to the point where it assumes the mantle of a selfish myopia, and disregarding of basic humane considerations for others, then b-gger off. You offend me and every decent bone in my body.

Incidentally, I have met many upon many Thai's who work in factories and the like in bad conditions for a pittance and who just manage to scrape a living for themselves and their families. Their wages rise has been a mini Godsend ..... more of it please.

I have, unfortunately, also encountered more than a few farang cheapskates. Baht counters. We know the ones, they never pay the shared taxi fare and inevitably leave the bar with more drinks inside them than they paid for.

Values in Thai society are slowly improving and will continue to do so. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Beechboy

[MrHammer]

I went back and read a bunch of much earlier comments. All of the anti union, anti human bullshit is as amusing as it is simple. Especially loved the Pol Pot reference. What most of you know about macro economics couldnt fill a can of Chang.

The world is a hugely complex place now. I find it ironic that so many of us deride workers and yet they still remain the drivers of modern consumer society.

But more than that, ehat you are saying is we dont need (want) you. If you are not x y z and a profit center,you are without worth and value. That is really sad.

As the world moves toward technology and away from.labor nations must endevour to make their populations ready for the challanges. Thailand fails miserably. There will be huge changes ahead and the technology will destroy an entire generation or more before it gets out of the gate. US is failing hard as well.

I love you all - blame the poor people. The least and the weakest among us.

Yes, you love Thailand - more like you love to exploit Thailand.

I probably know more macroeconomics than most since I studied it for 4 years before starting a business (and learning microeconomics that way practically).

No one is saying workers aren't needed or good people. We're against the idea that the economy is a zero sum game, meaning that we don't belive that because some are rich it is because others are poor or that some people earning (much) more means less for those who are 'workers'.

If you look empirically at history, countries which have implemented free market capitalist economies have become richer - for all - than countries which have tried socialist or marxist policies.

Minimum wages and unions are harmful because they crowd out those who are not worth minimum wage. This is simple economics learned in 101 courses.

In China where there are no unions, wages have risen a lot, to the point were production is moving to cheaper countries. Minimum wages and unions were not needed to raise wages.

The troubles facing the poor in Thailand is cultural discrimination against the Isaan population (and others) and a feudal society which is corrupt and nepotist. It is the lack of competition from foreign capitalist companies which maintain these imbalances. A capitalist run company is a company run on merit and not on the color of your skin.

Education and improvement of skill is the only way to earn more. A lot of poor and low income in Thailand have a very self defeating attitude instilled from a young age. They simply dare not believe that they could get the same as others. That has nothing to do with economics but culture and politics - again, not allowing foreign companies to hire talented and hungry locals regardless of 'caste' is what is keeping them poor. And that is just how the elite wants it so they can have their minimum wage maids, guard and motocy drivers.

Fix the cultural problems, not the free market.

[1020]

^^ Unfortunately I know quite a few Thai workers who have not and will not be given the minimum wage (15k p/m for Degree holders if I'm not mistaken), and are in no position to take the matter further, yet will endure the price increases.

I would imagine there will be many, many locals in the same the situation. Connected or just much richer and locally powerful Thai bosses and businesses, verses staff who've been exploited since graduating and have very little options to go somewhere else or protest their legal right.

[GuestHouse]

If you look empirically at history, countries which have implemented free market capitalist economies have become richer - for all - than countries which have tried socialist or marxist policies.

You presumably would prefer we don't bring Scandanavia into the discussion.

Of course you could respond with 'the exception that proves the rules' but Scandanavia also offers us another side of arguments in favour of wealth distribution.

The rocketing disparity between rich and poor (the wealth gradient) in these free market economies you worship is giving rise to deep rooted and growing social problems.

The economic model you insist is the only natural order of things is man made, just like money and economies and taxes are man made.

They can be made in anyway man wishes to make them - ssssshhhh..... there are other valid and working economic models than those espoused by the ladies and gentlemen of the Fox New Network.

[theblether]

^^ Unfortunately I know quite a few Thai workers who have not and will not be given the minimum wage (15k p/m for Degree holders if I'm not mistaken), and are in no position to take the matter further, yet will endure the price increases.

I would imagine there will be many, many locals in the same the situation. Connected or just much richer and locally powerful Thai bosses and businesses, verses staff who've been exploited since graduating and have very little options to go somewhere else or protest their legal right.

Correct. That has been stated already but some people here who claim to be experts on life in Thailand resolutely refuse to accept it.

The "minimum wage" is making many people poorer.

[theblether]

If you look empirically at history, countries which have implemented free market capitalist economies have become richer - for all - than countries which have tried socialist or marxist policies.

You presumably would prefer we don't bring Scandanavia into the discussion.

Of course you could respond with 'the exception that proves the rules' but Scandanavia also offers us another side of arguments in favour of wealth distribution.

The rocketing disparity between rich and poor (the wealth gradient) in these free market economies you worship is giving rise to deep rooted and growing social problems.

The economic model you insist is the only natural order of things is man made, just like money and economies and taxes are man made.

They can be made in anyway man wishes to make them - ssssshhhh..... there are other valid and working economic models than those espoused by the ladies and gentlemen of the Fox New Network.

You will have noticed that the Scandinavian countries rely upon a saturated tax base.

Pray, tell us how you would apply that model to Thailand.

[akspace]

Exactly. The romantic idea of workers 'taking over' has failed miserably everywhere. In the 70s, co-op and worker owned businesses sprang up everywhere. NONE exists today, for the simple fact that the workers discovered they couldn't lead and operate an advanced process such as business.

Given this whopper it's hard to take anything else you say seriously. Lets start with REI, small little co-op that does over $2B in business a year. Then of course I can name a dozen bank co-ops, then I'll move on to insurance co-ops and finally I can start listing the various local co-ops I frequent.

[Tolley]

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

The same tired old arguments raised against giving the most marginalised , disenfranchised members of society a puny wage increase.

The sky is going to fall in , it is a socialist country we will all be commies soon, it is a unionist plot, geez even Pol Pot got a mention <deleted> etc

Funny they have been trotting out the same arguments every time there is a minimum wage increase in Australia. Guess what the sky hasn't fallen in and inflation is not running out of control and the rich are still rich etc.

There is a good reason why govts have a minimum wage and that is protect the most vulnerable in society.

Shame on the blether or was that the blather that he begrudges those less fortunate than himself a tiny increase in wages, and some dignity.

And all those other tight fisted, mean posters trying to quote economic theory which sounds more like economic bull dust in a feeble attempt to try to justify the continuing suppression of those at the lowest levels of the economic ladder.

[i claudius]

Tolley

No one begruges the poor a little more money ,but if you bother to read the post ,you will see that the argument is ,that it does nothing for them ,just pushes up prices and they are no better off ,none of us care that things have gone up a few baht as it really does not affect us on larger incomes ,please READ posts before commenting.

Edited June 29, 2013 by i claudius

[Tolley]

Tolley

No one begruges the poor a little more money ,but if you bother to read the post ,you will see that the argument is ,that it does nothing for them ,just pushes up prices and they are no better off ,none of us care that things have gone up a few baht as it really does not affect us on larger incomes ,please READ posts before commenting.

I read the whole thread thanks and my impression remains the same.

What you don't seen to get is that prices go up anyway with or without increases to the lowest paid.

BTW Low paid wage earners only constitute a portion of costs for most businesses especially when we look at the whole Thai economy.

So without those increases which you and your fellow niggards begrudge the poorest workers they would be even worse off than they are currently.

[NeverSure]

I posted this elsewhere, but it's worth posting again. Samsung, the world's #1 smart phone company, has a plant in Korat. A lot of people work there and it is the best job they can find based on their education, etc.

Now with the new minimum wage, Vietnam's wages are 1/3 of Thailand's. Samsung just broke ground for a huge US$2 billion dollar manufacturing plant in Vietnam. Who can blame them? They aren't a charity. They are a for-profit company, answerable to their stockholders like you and me. Their sole responsibility is to show a profit for their investors. They exist only to make a profit and that's why we can have a smart phone.

We may not like that concept, but without it there would be no smart phones or a lot of other things that are developed and made for a profit motive. Without the profit motive there would also be no computer on your desk much less an internet connection.

So what is going to happen to this gal I know who works in Korat when Samsung opens its new plant in Vietnam to save money, and no longer needs her?

Yes she got a raise with the new minimum wage, but she thinks prices have gone up to eat into her paycheck, and now she will probably be out of work, lost out to some Vietnamese worker.

How can that be good for Thais?

[Tolley]

I posted this elsewhere, but it's worth posting again. Samsung, the world's #1 smart phone company, has a plant in Korat. A lot of people work there and it is the best job they can find based on their education, etc.

Now with the new minimum wage, Vietnam's wages are 1/3 of Thailand's. Samsung just broke ground for a huge US$2 billion dollar manufacturing plant in Vietnam. Who can blame them? They aren't a charity. They are a for-profit company, answerable to their stockholders like you and me. Their sole responsibility is to show a profit for their investors. They exist only to make a profit and that's why we can have a smart phone.

We may not like that concept, but without it there would be no smart phones or a lot of other things that are developed and made for a profit motive. Without the profit motive there would also be no computer on your desk much less an internet connection.

So what is going to happen to this gal I know who works in Korat when Samsung opens its new plant in Vietnam to save money, and no longer needs her?

Yes she got a raise with the new minimum wage, but she thinks prices have gone up to eat into her paycheck, and now she will probably be out of work, lost out to some Vietnamese worker.

How can that be good for Thais?

Yes and when the standards of living rise in Vietnam and wage pressures increase multi nationals will move to Cambodia or Burma or wherever they can get a better deal.

You shouldn't expect thais to work for less that the minimum wage so a multi national can boost their profits should you?

[theblether]

^^ No, as long as they don't moan when the multi-nationals move out of the country.

Just sayin'

[i claudius]

Funny ,but my wife just stopped to get some sausages at the side of the road ,havn't been to him for ages ,up from 10b to15 b ,my wife was chating to him and the conversation went that the place where he gets his meat had put up prices because the factory was now charging more and that they had laid off some staff ,his buisness has gone way down because his "clients" who are mainly poorer Thais could not pay extra ,now for us the rise meant nothing much ,but for some poor sods at the bottom of the food chain it meant one hell of a lot ,as a last thing ,his price for those sausages untill recently had been 10b for the last four years., coincidence ,i think not.

[beechguy]

I posted this elsewhere, but it's worth posting again. Samsung, the world's #1 smart phone company, has a plant in Korat. A lot of people work there and it is the best job they can find based on their education, etc.

Now with the new minimum wage, Vietnam's wages are 1/3 of Thailand's. Samsung just broke ground for a huge US$2 billion dollar manufacturing plant in Vietnam. Who can blame them? They aren't a charity. They are a for-profit company, answerable to their stockholders like you and me. Their sole responsibility is to show a profit for their investors. They exist only to make a profit and that's why we can have a smart phone.

We may not like that concept, but without it there would be no smart phones or a lot of other things that are developed and made for a profit motive. Without the profit motive there would also be no computer on your desk much less an internet connection.

So what is going to happen to this gal I know who works in Korat when Samsung opens its new plant in Vietnam to save money, and no longer needs her?

Yes she got a raise with the new minimum wage, but she thinks prices have gone up to eat into her paycheck, and now she will probably be out of work, lost out to some Vietnamese worker.

How can that be good for Thais?

How can a race to the bottom be good for the Thai's, they were already competing with the Vietnamese before the wage increase.

[1020]

Butter.

77b upto 89b today in Big C.

The humanity!

[i claudius]

Butter.

77b upto 89b today in Big C.

The humanity!

Multinationals just make ,wage rises an excuse to sack workers and put up prices ,it happened when the minimum wage came in Britain ,we lost loads of council contracts and had to let dozens of our workers go .

[NeverSure]

I posted this elsewhere, but it's worth posting again. Samsung, the world's #1 smart phone company, has a plant in Korat. A lot of people work there and it is the best job they can find based on their education, etc.

Now with the new minimum wage, Vietnam's wages are 1/3 of Thailand's. Samsung just broke ground for a huge US$2 billion dollar manufacturing plant in Vietnam. Who can blame them? They aren't a charity. They are a for-profit company, answerable to their stockholders like you and me. Their sole responsibility is to show a profit for their investors. They exist only to make a profit and that's why we can have a smart phone.

We may not like that concept, but without it there would be no smart phones or a lot of other things that are developed and made for a profit motive. Without the profit motive there would also be no computer on your desk much less an internet connection.

So what is going to happen to this gal I know who works in Korat when Samsung opens its new plant in Vietnam to save money, and no longer needs her?

Yes she got a raise with the new minimum wage, but she thinks prices have gone up to eat into her paycheck, and now she will probably be out of work, lost out to some Vietnamese worker.

How can that be good for Thais?

How can a race to the bottom be good for the Thai's, they were already competing with the Vietnamese before the wage increase.

Before the wage increases, Thailand was more competitive with Vietnam, so I don't get your point. Thailand can price itself out of the market.

A minimum wage is always a bad thing. Good productive, skilled (by their own efforts) employees will always earn at least a livable income.

BUT, the poor young sod with NO job skills is not worth minimum wage to an employer so he goes begging.

Think about this. In many countries, people have to actually PAY to get their job skills. They go to trade school or uni, or they join an organization such as the plumbers or electricians and PAY to take the necessary schooling and pass the necessary tests to become certified. Only then can they make the pay scale of a professional.

There will always be people on the bottom of the ladder, and it is up to them to work to improve themselves. If they are far enough on the bottom, no one will pay them a minimum wage.

BUT if there is no minimum wage, an employer can hire them and train them at a price that makes sense. This employee is paid little, but is that worse than actually paying for schooling? At least the chap gets to work and learn and add some value to himself.

Minimum wages only price people out of the market, whether it means layoffs, lack of a job due to lack of training, or a wholesale move by a big company to Vietnam.

Everyone starts on the bottom unless born rich. Then they either go to uni or trade school, start a business, or do something to add value to themselves, or they stay on the bottom.

You can't force an employer to pay someone a wage that doesn't make the employer a profit.

Edited June 29, 2013 by NeverSure

[beechguy]

Here is the problem with minimum wage and unions.

You might say, that it is only a small sum, but consider a factory hiring 500 employees, it adds up. Or consider the fact that many around the minimum wage do jobs for people that aren't strictly nessecary but adds to quality of life such as cleaning etc.

At some point, which is different for everyone, you're not going to pay someone to clean, but do it yourself instead. Not because 100 baht more will break your budget, but because other price increases all together makes you cut back.

The time you spent on cleaning can't be spent on working, so you take money out of the economy or if you didn't work, you can't spend while you're cleaning. Plus the cleaning lady won't get any money. The net result is a negative on the economy.

Now with a minimum wage, some people are not going to be worth that minimum wage. It is that simple. If you can't earn back what you pay someone in wages of course you're not going to hire them.

Eventually the growing number of unemployed will lead to demands for more welfare and jobless payments. And then my friends, is the country on the downwards spiral into populist socialist dictatorship as we have it in Europe.

Unions are little more than mafia enterprises on labor these days. They made sense 100 years ago when security was absent in the workplace, but today, they're useless parasites on productive people.

Absolute rubbish. There is no proof that minimum wages causes unemployment. It will only cause inflation for the rich, who are overpaid anyways.

Yes there is. It is a very basic foundation of economics that everyone agrees upon.

The problem with economics is that people without any studies on the subject feel they are qualified to comment. Sure, give your opinion, yet perhaps you shouldn't be as strong headed.

So you are trying tell us that the minimum wage is the source of the unemployment rate in that chart, and there were no other factors?

[i claudius]

My next door neigbour has just got rid of some of his Thai builders and taken on Cambodians as they are cheaper . ,all my neigbours have Cambodian maids ,i wonder why? could it be they charge less? never

[Scottythai]

My next door neigbour has just got rid of some of his Thai builders and taken on Cambodians as they are cheaper . ,all my neigbours have Cambodian maids ,i wonder why? could it be they charge less? never

Sweet so they bring in people from another country because they are cheaper with no worrys about the economy and well being of the people who's country they choose to live in. Kinda seems a bit of scum for neighbours. I hope they are not Thai looknig for a cheaper worker.