Deceased condo owners / Empty rooms

[riki48]

Hi

Hoping somebody can maybe point me in the right direction or has knowledge of proceedings. Maybe someone on a condo committee with knowledge of this subject.

I am a committee member and what we have in our building are several empty condo's due the passing of owners and a few others that just appear to have been locked up and abandoned. some since around 2005.

We have no contact details, no next of kin what-so-ever for these persons. A point to note is that they are all in foreigner name.

Solicitors have been instructed by our own building management company but nothing seems to be happening at any pace. And the management company just don't seem to know the answers

No common fee's have been paid on these units for years. The water supplies cut off but it would be nice to get something sorted as I can see this happening more and more in the future.

Does anybody have experience in this and what we can do about it?

Riki

[Delight]

Your circumstances are not unique. It is the outcome when a Farang with a condo. in his own name, dies outside Thailand -without leaving a Will.

The Thai law does not cover this circumstance. I am aware of one condo ,faced with this situation ,where the management decided to invest. This resulted in a condo that was then suitable for renting out. Over time the investment was repaid. The subsequent surpluses were then shared between the condo and the dependents of the deceased.

So my advice is do the same. Nobody can touch you.You may decide to donate a portion of any surplus to charity. Conscience money.

The alternative , i.e.do nothing,imposes potential risk to the condo at large.

My guess is that the JPM should not be part of any decision process-dependent of his relationship with the committee.

No legal authority can help you as things stand

You may also choose not to inform the other co -owners. They may demand a reduction in fees.

(as an aside the tactic of a Farang passing away outside Thailand can be a useful ploy to avoid the legal complications of transfer. Providing the beneficiaries pay the fees the condo management will not care that the actual owner has passed on-or more liklely not know.. It could stay within the family of the deceased for decades and decades.)

Edited June 30, 2013 by Delight

[harrry]

Rent them out. Pay the condo fees and back fees then any surpus after all the back fees and costs go can be set into an account to improve those condos which then can continue to pay their fees. If anyone makes a claim you still have a right to all the back condo fees and penaltiesl.

[riki48]

Thank you both Delight and Harry for your input

I will be putting this to the committee at our next meeting. (renting these units out).

Note

This actually happened for a period of time some years ago with one particular unit, however the management advised the then committee that this could possibly land them in some what deep water with legal issues somewhat so the arrangement was stopped.

I would like to start it again.

Does anyone know of this happening elsewhere?

Thanks

Riki

[Maestro]

In addition to everything else that has been suggested, eg renting out the condo, I believe the Juristic Person Management should make some effort to trace the owner or, if he is know to have died, his relatives, with the cost for this research to be recovered from rental income or the eventual sale of the condo.

I believe Thai law (Civil Code) provides that when a person dies intestate and has no statuary heirs, the assets of the deceased go the state.

What means are available to trace the owner or his relatives?

• If the Juristic Person Management (JPM) has a copy of the owners passport or otherwise knows his nationality, his country's consulate may help.
• If the owner made payments to the JPM by means of bank transfers, the bank from which the transfers originated may help.
• I believe either the purchase contract for the condo or the land title deed or both have the nationality and place of birth of the owner and the names of his parents. Copies of these documents are publicly accessible at the land registration department, I believe, and this information can be a starting point for tracing the owner or his relatives.
• A private investigator could be used to help with the search.

[Suradit69]

We have the same problem in our building . We were told that there was nothing that could be done legally.

I would think if there was personal property of the ( presumed ) deceased in the condo, whoever does the breaking and entering could be held accountable for alleged losses of unaccounted for possessions.

[Delight]

In addition to everything else that has been suggested, eg renting out the condo, I believe the Juristic Person Management should make some effort to trace the owner or, if he is know to have died, his relatives, with the cost for this research to be recovered from rental income or the eventual sale of the condo.

I believe Thai law (Civil Code) provides that when a person dies intestate and has no statuary heirs, the assets of the deceased go the state.

What means are available to trace the owner or his relatives?

• If the Juristic Person Management (JPM) has a copy of the owners passport or otherwise knows his nationality, his country's consulate may help.
• If the owner made payments to the JPM by means of bank transfers, the bank from which the transfers originated may help.
• I believe either the purchase contract for the condo or the land title deed or both have the nationality and place of birth of the owner and the names of his parents. Copies of these documents are publicly accessible at the land registration department, I believe, and this information can be a starting point for tracing the owner or his relatives.
• A private investigator could be used to help with the search.

I cannot agree with most of your suggestions/statements

1)The JPM has a narrow responsibility-Manage the common area of the condo. Private area is not his / her concern. A JPM cannot get involved tracing the relatives of the deceased . if the well being of the condo is threatened then the JPM will get involved-other than that the JPM will keep away from the issue.

2) Your reference to the Civil code is correct ,but only applies to deaths in regular circumstances i.e all Thai citizens when there is no Will (irrespective of where they die) and Farang who do not leave a will but died in Thailand .

They will not have an official record of the death of a Foreigner if he dies outside Thailand.Therefore no action will be taken . As I said earlier the Thai Legal system has no provision for the circumstances detailed by the O.P.

If action were to be taken by the Thai authorities -it would already have happened.

3) Typically it is the relatives of the deceased who come to Thailand to claim the asset. If they have not come by now-they will not be coming.

The committee are free to resolve the situation as they see fit for the benefit of the condo. They have that authority

Edited June 30, 2013 by Delight

[johnnyk]

This reminds me of our friends in France who wanted to buy a piece of vacant property behind their house. They searched and found out the owner of record was a UK man so they managed to contact his UK address to enquire if the property could be bought. Turned out he had died a few years before and had left part of his estate to an animal society in the UK. It was a home for stray dogs or something that was the actual owner of the property!

It all came good in the end as the society had no use for the land so had simply not bothered with it, not even paying the tiny tax each year. It was a bit more complicated than a normal transaction but our friends now enjoy the pool they installed on the piece of land.

Edited June 30, 2013 by johnnyk

[dighambara]

Rent them out. Pay the condo fees and back fees then any surpus after all the back fees and costs go can be set into an account to improve those condos which then can continue to pay their fees. If anyone makes a claim you still have a right to all the back condo fees and penaltiesl.

ILLEGAL to rent out something you do not own...

BTW - I own a condo and I visit ever year or two, but do pay the annual fees. However COndo management has always been sloppy about power and water. I am willing to pay those bills, but management neve sends them. Then they complain that they had to remov the meter - etc. T.I.T.

[Delight]

Rent them out. Pay the condo fees and back fees then any surpus after all the back fees and costs go can be set into an account to improve those condos which then can continue to pay their fees. If anyone makes a claim you still have a right to all the back condo fees and penaltiesl.

ILLEGAL to rent out something you do not own...

That statement sounds reasonable -but legal action can only commence when the legal owner registers a complaint. That's not going to happen when he's 6 feet under.

[harrry]

If he is dead and his relatives do not turn up no problem. If proper accounting has been done and the receipts go to payment of condo fees letting costs and commission and mainainance I think they will be very happy not to make a complaint. If they do they are liable for all condo fees and they will not be permittedd to cross common property to reach the condos till this and the penalties have been paid in full. I would also as some protection make an attempt.......using the proceeds of the rental after all condo fees have been paid to trace the owner.

[Delight]

If he is dead and his relatives do not turn up no problem. If proper accounting has been done and the receipts go to payment of condo fees letting costs and commission and mainainance I think they will be very happy not to make a complaint. If they do they are liable for all condo fees and they will not be permittedd to cross common property to reach the condos till this and the penalties have been paid in full. I would also as some protection make an attempt.......using the proceeds of the rental after all condo fees have been paid to trace the owner.

I agree with all of what you are saying -except with respect of tracing the owner. There is no possibility that any relatives,even if they exist and can be located, can ever own the condo.The land office simply cannot transfer.(unless the highest court in Thailand made a special dispensation.)

There is one condo ,that I am aware of ,where a relative visited Thailand to claim. The condo management now split the surplus 50/50.

Possibly it may be prudent for the OP to suggest to his management that any surpluses are donated to a local Temple.(or to the Land Office's New Years piss -up)

[harrry]

Donation to the temple could be theft. There is no possible authourity for that. Retention of the moneys by improving the persons condos and paying condo fees would probably be justfiable. Using the fees outside that are not. What the committee (which does not own the condo) may have a right to is to get the fees paid (and apropriate management fees), preserve the owners property by apropriate mainainance etc but any other use of the money would be very suspect.

[harrry]

If he is dead and his relatives do not turn up no problem. If proper accounting has been done and the receipts go to payment of condo fees letting costs and commission and mainainance I think they will be very happy not to make a complaint. If they do they are liable for all condo fees and they will not be permittedd to cross common property to reach the condos till this and the penalties have been paid in full. I would also as some protection make an attempt.......using the proceeds of the rental after all condo fees have been paid to trace the owner.

I agree with all of what you are saying -except with respect of tracing the owner. There is no possibility that any relatives,even if they exist and can be located, can ever own the condo.The land office simply cannot transfer.(unless the highest court in Thailand made a special dispensation.)

There is one condo ,that I am aware of ,where a relative visited Thailand to claim. The condo management now split the surplus 50/50.

Possibly it may be prudent for the OP to suggest to his management that any surpluses are donated to a local Temple.(or to the Land Office's New Years piss -up)

Actually the relatives if they fit into the area of statutory heirs can claim. There is not restriction that inheritance laws only apply to thais.

[CRUNCHER]

I am not an expert and I might be wrong, but I believe there is a procedure where the JPM can go to court for unpaid fees. Eventually the condo can be auctioned to pay those fees and expenses. Any balance would go to the heirs of the owner if and when they turn up.

If this is possible it is far safer than renting out something you do not own. If heirs do turn up they might well be able to claim the rental money back as it is their property. At least it is likely to involve the juristic in a legal wrangle.

Edited July 1, 2013 by CRUNCHER

[Delight]

I am not an expert and I might be wrong, but I believe there is a procedure where the JPM can go to court for unpaid fees. Eventually the condo can be auctioned to pay those fees and expenses. Any balance would go to the heirs of the owner if and when they turn up.

If this is possible it is far safer than renting out something you do not own. If heirs do turn up they might well be able to claim the rental money back as it is their property. At least it is likely to involve the juristic in a legal wrangle.

In regular circumstances ,with respect to court action to re coup unpaid fees,you are correct.The condo where I live is currently carrying out such a procedure.

However - who, in the OP's circumstance , would the defendant be? Can the court rule against a dead foreigner,who left no Thai Will , and died outside Thailand?

Bearing in mind that the court would not,in all likely hood, have any proof that he actually was dead.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Delight

[davejones]

Isn't this in the condo contract? i.e. don't pay the fees and we have the right to sell your condo to recover them. If there's no such thing in the contracts, then the lawyers setting them up are negligent. There should always be some remedy for non-payment of common fees. Selling the condo would be the last resort, but it should be available.

[harrry]

I am not an expert and I might be wrong, but I believe there is a procedure where the JPM can go to court for unpaid fees. Eventually the condo can be auctioned to pay those fees and expenses. Any balance would go to the heirs of the owner if and when they turn up.

If this is possible it is far safer than renting out something you do not own. If heirs do turn up they might well be able to claim the rental money back as it is their property. At least it is likely to involve the juristic in a legal wrangle.

Condo fees have to be paid or they can be blocked from crossing common property to get to the condo. The slight possibility of them turning up is why I suggested seperately acounting for the income.

After renting them out for 10 years the condo could apply to the court for ownership through use. If property here is used for 10 years ownership is gained.

[bangkokburning]

If the person is (was) American, I'd like the opportunity of finding him.or kin. Please email me if you are willing to pay for it.

[Delight]

There are international conventions that attempt deal with all aspects of statutory rights with respect to the claims of potential beneficiaries.

The most important factor with respect to the OP is that, potential beneficiaries, have to persuade a legal authority in their homeland ,that the deceased were essentially domicile outside Thailand.

Given that this is achieved , it is not too difficult to convince a Thai judge to grant ownership of a Thai asset.

Suspect that this outcome is not cheap.

So if a condo has a low values say sub 2M Baht-it is probably not worth the cost and effort.

For that reasons condos lay dormant are not claimed.

I am unsure as to whether Thailand is a signatory to this international convention –or not

Edited July 2, 2013 by Delight