Egypt crisis: Interim president sworn in after Morsi ousted

[lemoncake]

After the big spring, came the cold winter.

Power has changed hands, but not much else has changed.

Perhaps the previous dictators were not as bad, and had to be dictators for obvious reasons.

Under Mubbarack, Egypt was fairly prosperous, and now???>>>>>>>>>>>>>>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Publicus]

After the big spring, came the cold winter.

Power has changed hands, but not much else has changed.

Perhaps the previous dictators were not as bad, and had to be dictators for obvious reasons.

Under Mubbarack, Egypt was fairly prosperous, and now???>>>>>>>>>>>>>>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

..............And now still in transition. A year ago the moment in the transition looked grim. Presently the transition seems to have regained its traction. There's been a radical shift at this point, strongly away from the Muslims who want Sharia law and toward a secular state and society. Secularism promises radically different in contrast to living by religious texts and doctrines alone.

The army is looking out for itself in the process, having got used to getting the gravy since it overthrew the monarchy in 1952 to set up Egyptian society for its benefit. Presently, in the transition, the interests of the middle class and the army are in such close proximity that each needs the other for what each wants. Sounds like a workable deal to me.

[lemoncake]

After the big spring, came the cold winter.

Power has changed hands, but not much else has changed.

Perhaps the previous dictators were not as bad, and had to be dictators for obvious reasons.

Under Mubbarack, Egypt was fairly prosperous, and now???>>>>>>>>>>>>>>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

..............And now still in transition. A year ago the moment in the transition looked grim. Presently the transition seems to have regained its traction. There's been a radical shift at this point, strongly away from the Muslims who want Sharia law and toward a secular state and society. Secularism promises radically different in contrast to living by religious texts and doctrines alone.

The army is looking out for itself in the process, having got used to getting the gravy since it overthrew the monarchy in 1952 to set up Egyptian society for its benefit. Presently, in the transition, the interests of the middle class and the army are in such close proximity that each needs the other for what each wants. Sounds like a workable deal to me.

Interesting perspective, only the answer to my question can be summarized in 1-2 words.

Now its in the crapper and will take decades to get out of it, because next i believe you will find more extremist attacks and terror acts within the country

[Publicus]

After the big spring, came the cold winter.

Power has changed hands, but not much else has changed.

Perhaps the previous dictators were not as bad, and had to be dictators for obvious reasons.

Under Mubbarack, Egypt was fairly prosperous, and now???>>>>>>>>>>>>>>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

..............And now still in transition. A year ago the moment in the transition looked grim. Presently the transition seems to have regained its traction. There's been a radical shift at this point, strongly away from the Muslims who want Sharia law and toward a secular state and society. Secularism promises radically different in contrast to living by religious texts and doctrines alone.

The army is looking out for itself in the process, having got used to getting the gravy since it overthrew the monarchy in 1952 to set up Egyptian society for its benefit. Presently, in the transition, the interests of the middle class and the army are in such close proximity that each needs the other for what each wants. Sounds like a workable deal to me.

Interesting perspective, only the answer to my question can be summarized in 1-2 words.

Now its in the crapper and will take decades to get out of it, because next i believe you will find more extremist attacks and terror acts within the country

The Brotherhood is on the outs for good now. They either quit and go back to their everyday lives or start blowing up Egypt until they can get back into power. However, the great majority of Egyptians won't mind when the army goes after the Brotherhood again, this time for keeps and with no holds barred. Yes, it will be messy but Egypt now can get back on track toward the economic and social development they need and want.

(I didn't count the words, but I'm confident you can get through them all without major adjustments to your life.)

[JDGRUEN]

Latest Blow to Brotherhood: Sheikh Qaradawi Evicted from Qatar, Brotherhood Offices Closed

The spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, for long one of the most authoritative voices in Sunni Islam — and certainly a “radical,” who, among other things, insists Muslims must always “obey the prophet, even if he tells you to kill” —

...has just had his Qatari citizenship revoked and told to leave Qatar by its emir, Tamim bin Hamd bin al-Khalifa, in light of events in Egypt, specifically the overthrow of the Brotherhood and Morsi. Qaradawi has lived in Qatar for years, as he was exiled from Egypt under Mubarak for inciting terrorism...

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/from-the-arab-world/latest-blow-to-brotherhood-sheikh-qaradawi-evicted-from-qatar-brotherhood-offices-closed/

[lemoncake]

After the big spring, came the cold winter.

Power has changed hands, but not much else has changed.

Perhaps the previous dictators were not as bad, and had to be dictators for obvious reasons.

Under Mubbarack, Egypt was fairly prosperous, and now???>>>>>>>>>>>>>>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

..............And now still in transition. A year ago the moment in the transition looked grim. Presently the transition seems to have regained its traction. There's been a radical shift at this point, strongly away from the Muslims who want Sharia law and toward a secular state and society. Secularism promises radically different in contrast to living by religious texts and doctrines alone.

The army is looking out for itself in the process, having got used to getting the gravy since it overthrew the monarchy in 1952 to set up Egyptian society for its benefit. Presently, in the transition, the interests of the middle class and the army are in such close proximity that each needs the other for what each wants. Sounds like a workable deal to me.

Interesting perspective, only the answer to my question can be summarized in 1-2 words.

Now its in the crapper and will take decades to get out of it, because next i believe you will find more extremist attacks and terror acts within the country

The Brotherhood is on the outs for good now. They either quit and go back to their everyday lives or start blowing up Egypt until they can get back into power. However, the great majority of Egyptians won't mind when the army goes after the Brotherhood again, this time for keeps and with no holds barred. Yes, it will be messy but Egypt now can get back on track toward the economic and social development they need and want.

(I didn't count the words, but I'm confident you can get through them all without major adjustments to your life.)

You are very optimistic, it will take another dictator to bring country out of chaos.

Egyptian army is not doing too well against attacks in Sinai, what makes you think they can do better with Brotherhood and its supporters, should they chose to fight

[JDGRUEN]

@lemoncake ... #36

The Suez canal is very important to Europe to say the least... With Israel as a backstop, the EU nations may be dragged into a deja vu defense of the Suez canal to keep the oil and other goods coming through... EU air power in the Sinai / Suez could be seen in the not so distant future. Even some small warships at either end for a show of force. This mess could take the focus off Syria and allow Assad and his Russian friends to push the radical Islamists in Syria out ... This is a whole set of disjointed dominoes ... (and yes this speculation - but speculation based on a lot of reading...)

[Publicus]

It won't be easy, for sure, to root out the Brotherhood as terrorists, but the Brotherhood is well known to Egyptians coz they're the next door neighbors.

The Egyptian military going after the Brotherhood with the great support of the population will make Bosnia-Kosovo look like a cakewalk, except it will be moderate Muslims eliminating cancerous extremist Muslims. The Egyptian army aren't the ACLU.

[lemoncake]

@lemoncake ... #36

The Suez canal is very important to Europe to say the least... With Israel as a backstop, the EU nations may be dragged into a deja vu defense of the Suez canal to keep the oil and other goods coming through... EU air power in the Sinai / Suez could be seen in the not so distant future. Even some small warships at either end for a show of force. This mess could take the focus off Syria and allow Assad and his Russian friends to push the radical Islamists in Syria out ... This is a whole set of disjointed dominoes ... (and yes this speculation - but speculation based on a lot of reading...)

Where did i mention Suez Canal? and hence i did not, i am sorry i do not see the relevance of your post to mine

[Publicus]

@lemoncake ... #36

The Suez canal is very important to Europe to say the least... With Israel as a backstop, the EU nations may be dragged into a deja vu defense of the Suez canal to keep the oil and other goods coming through... EU air power in the Sinai / Suez could be seen in the not so distant future. Even some small warships at either end for a show of force. This mess could take the focus off Syria and allow Assad and his Russian friends to push the radical Islamists in Syria out ... This is a whole set of disjointed dominoes ... (and yes this speculation - but speculation based on a lot of reading...)

If the Brotherhood becomes a full fledged army of terrorists what you say probably would become a necessity. The Brotherhood as a terrorist army would go directly for the Canal, unless they feared the direct response of Europe which very likely would include the US, Canada, i.e., Nato.

The Canal is directly connected to power in Egypt if the Brotherhood should become a terrorist army. So it could become very messy, but necessarily so.

[antfish]

'Setback for Democracy': World Leaders Critical of Egyptian Coup


Leaders in Europe and elsewhere have expressed dismay at the coup which saw the Egyptian military topple the country's president on Wednesday night. Some are warning that it sets a "dangerous precedent" that could happen again.

Wednesday night's coup d'etat by the Egyptian military that toppled Mohammed Morsi as the country's Islamist leader and installed a temporary civilian government has been described as a "serious setback for democracy" by Germany. Leaders across Europe have expressed concern over the development, which saw the ouster of a democratic government just one year after Morsi took office

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/european-leaders-warn-of-setback-to-democracy-after-egypt-coup-a-909447.html

[JDGRUEN]

@lemoncake ... #36

The Suez canal is very important to Europe to say the least... With Israel as a backstop, the EU nations may be dragged into a deja vu defense of the Suez canal to keep the oil and other goods coming through... EU air power in the Sinai / Suez could be seen in the not so distant future. Even some small warships at either end for a show of force. This mess could take the focus off Syria and allow Assad and his Russian friends to push the radical Islamists in Syria out ... This is a whole set of disjointed dominoes ... (and yes this speculation - but speculation based on a lot of reading...)

Where did i mention Suez Canal? and hence i did not, i am sorry i do not see the relevance of your post to mine

Yes - I leaped frogged a little on the subject ... but post # 40 is in line with my thinking on this ... the Sinai is a lot of sand ... the Suez is the prize bordering that sand...

[lemoncake]

@lemoncake ... #36

The Suez canal is very important to Europe to say the least... With Israel as a backstop, the EU nations may be dragged into a deja vu defense of the Suez canal to keep the oil and other goods coming through... EU air power in the Sinai / Suez could be seen in the not so distant future. Even some small warships at either end for a show of force. This mess could take the focus off Syria and allow Assad and his Russian friends to push the radical Islamists in Syria out ... This is a whole set of disjointed dominoes ... (and yes this speculation - but speculation based on a lot of reading...)

Where did i mention Suez Canal? and hence i did not, i am sorry i do not see the relevance of your post to mine

Yes - I leaped frogged a little on the subject ... but post # 40 is in line with my thinking on this ... the Sinai is a lot of sand ... the Suez is the prize bordering that sand...

It may well be just sand and yet Egyptian army gets attacked weekly and culprits usually get away as well.

Army outnumbers the attackers and yet still fails to act or prevent the attacks.

So the point is, if army is that weak, irrespective of support they have from the West and it's own people, are they really going to stop Brotherhood should they turn into a military wing and attack?

Under Mubarrack, the gas pipelines were safe, everything was "under control" after his removal, there has been from memory over 15 attacks already on the pipelines alone, each attack costs Egypt millions of $ and will be costing more, once Israel lays its own lines, Egypt will loose from sales to 2 countries-Israel and Jordan.

The point i am trying to make, that perhaps that region DOES NEED a moderate dictator to prosper. While many no doubt will disagree and claim democracy is the way, i still believe that people in that region are not ready for democracy and have proven it over and over again

[snarky66]

'Setback for Democracy': World Leaders Critical of Egyptian Coup

Leaders in Europe and elsewhere have expressed dismay at the coup which saw the Egyptian military topple the country's president on Wednesday night. Some are warning that it sets a "dangerous precedent" that could happen again.

An outrage or "concern" they did not express when Hosni Mubarak was being deposed. Bunch of hypocrites.

I personally like mob rule. So far the Egyptian people have made 2 steps forward. Some of these folks are not ready for democracy yet. I am certainly liking what I am seeing so far. Hopefully the new gov't can round up the terrorists & maybe put them in camps.

[Publicus]

@lemoncake ... #36

The Suez canal is very important to Europe to say the least... With Israel as a backstop, the EU nations may be dragged into a deja vu defense of the Suez canal to keep the oil and other goods coming through... EU air power in the Sinai / Suez could be seen in the not so distant future. Even some small warships at either end for a show of force. This mess could take the focus off Syria and allow Assad and his Russian friends to push the radical Islamists in Syria out ... This is a whole set of disjointed dominoes ... (and yes this speculation - but speculation based on a lot of reading...)

Where did i mention Suez Canal? and hence i did not, i am sorry i do not see the relevance of your post to mine

Yes - I leaped frogged a little on the subject ... but post # 40 is in line with my thinking on this ... the Sinai is a lot of sand ... the Suez is the prize bordering that sand...

It may well be just sand and yet Egyptian army gets attacked weekly and culprits usually get away as well.

Army outnumbers the attackers and yet still fails to act or prevent the attacks.

So the point is, if army is that weak, irrespective of support they have from the West and it's own people, are they really going to stop Brotherhood should they turn into a military wing and attack?

Under Mubarrack, the gas pipelines were safe, everything was "under control" after his removal, there has been from memory over 15 attacks already on the pipelines alone, each attack costs Egypt millions of $ and will be costing more, once Israel lays its own lines, Egypt will loose from sales to 2 countries-Israel and Jordan.

The point i am trying to make, that perhaps that region DOES NEED a moderate dictator to prosper. While many no doubt will disagree and claim democracy is the way, i still believe that people in that region are not ready for democracy and have proven it over and over again

Your point of wanting a dictator in Egypt is already more than clear. It's what I reject, for the reasons I've stated, i.e., the transition from a one-party state to something resembling a secular democracy is one that will take time, will ebb and flow, will require discipline and patience.

If the Brotherhood becomes an army of fighters, or an army of terrorists or both, the transition will be seriously disrupted. However, the transition was seriously disrupted when Morsi was elected - if Morsi's election had been the finale to the transition then we wouldn't be where we are now. There's plenty more transitioning to do, I'm afraid, because it looks like Egypt could get very ugly.

The army acted because it long ago had become clear there was no place for it in the Brotherhood's closed government. The middle class came out in full force for the same reason, i.e., Morsi had shown long ago there was no place for the middle class in the Brotherhood's exclusive government predicated on Sharia law and religious scriptures.

The Grand Pubha of the Brotherhood, or whatever he may be, was just talking on my tv firing up a huge mob in Tahrir Square. Aside from his saying God is Great 1000 times during the first five minutes, he wants Morsi released and recognized as the legit prez. So what's started now is that

There's no such thing as a "moderate" dictator, or a benevolent dictator to resist the Brotherhood. Just as the Brotherhood has the one and only true God, Allah, there is only one and true dictatorship - the dictatorship of Allah. It's clearly a matter of the dictatorship of an extreme Allah versus the moderate bourgeoise and its secular self-determination. The middle class and the military have joined. Civil war is imminent.

[Publicus]

Latest Blow to Brotherhood: Sheikh Qaradawi Evicted from Qatar, Brotherhood Offices Closed

The spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, for long one of the most authoritative voices in Sunni Islam — and certainly a “radical,” who, among other things, insists Muslims must always “obey the prophet, even if he tells you to kill” —

...has just had his Qatari citizenship revoked and told to leave Qatar by its emir, Tamim bin Hamd bin al-Khalifa, in light of events in Egypt, specifically the overthrow of the Brotherhood and Morsi. Qaradawi has lived in Qatar for years, as he was exiled from Egypt under Mubarak for inciting terrorism...

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/from-the-arab-world/latest-blow-to-brotherhood-sheikh-qaradawi-evicted-from-qatar-brotherhood-offices-closed/

Yeah, this is in actuality not good. He's gonna go in a straight line to Egypt and probably bring a small army with him. It gets Qatar out of the line of fire though. Any other governments in the region that do this kind of thing are going to feed the Egyptian Brotherhood in the imminent conflict there.

The Egyptian military rank and file will have to be loyal to its commanders - can't have any divisions within the military as is the case in Thailand with watermelon generals and troops.

A new election in Egypt now looks unlikely anytime soon. The new interim president is the chief judge of the Constitutional Court who I don't imagine would have the stuff of a civil war leader, an Abe Lincoln as it were. The military may have to appoint a head of government for the duration of the coming conflict or find a tough minded and willed civilian leadert.

[JDGRUEN]

'Setback for Democracy': World Leaders Critical of Egyptian Coup

Leaders in Europe and elsewhere have expressed dismay at the coup which saw the Egyptian military topple the country's president on Wednesday night. Some are warning that it sets a "dangerous precedent" that could happen again.

An outrage or "concern" they did not express when Hosni Mubarak was being deposed. Bunch of hypocrites.

I personally like mob rule. So far the Egyptian people have made 2 steps forward. Some of these folks are not ready for democracy yet. I am certainly liking what I am seeing so far. Hopefully the new gov't can round up the terrorists & maybe put them in camps.

And of course - leaders of EU countries are going to say it is a bad thing to overthrow a 'democracy' - they don't want their citizens to get any ideas - hehehehahahaha. Egyptian Brotherhood Democracy -- what a hoot .. .

[snarky66]

17 to 30 killed today depending on the source. The brotherhood are rebelling.

[lemoncake]

Your point of wanting a dictator in Egypt is already more than clear. It's what I reject, for the reasons I've stated, i.e., the transition from a one-party state to something resembling a secular democracy is one that will take time, will ebb and flow, will require discipline and patience.

If the Brotherhood becomes an army of fighters, or an army of terrorists or both, the transition will be seriously disrupted. However, the transition was seriously disrupted when Morsi was elected - if Morsi's election had been the finale to the transition then we wouldn't be where we are now. There's plenty more transitioning to do, I'm afraid, because it looks like Egypt could get very ugly.

The army acted because it long ago had become clear there was no place for it in the Brotherhood's closed government. The middle class came out in full force for the same reason, i.e., Morsi had shown long ago there was no place for the middle class in the Brotherhood's exclusive government predicated on Sharia law and religious scriptures.

The Grand Pubha of the Brotherhood, or whatever he may be, was just talking on my tv firing up a huge mob in Tahrir Square. Aside from his saying God is Great 1000 times during the first five minutes, he wants Morsi released and recognized as the legit prez. So what's started now is that

There's no such thing as a "moderate" dictator, or a benevolent dictator to resist the Brotherhood. Just as the Brotherhood has the one and only true God, Allah, there is only one and true dictatorship - the dictatorship of Allah. It's clearly a matter of the dictatorship of an extreme Allah versus the moderate bourgeoise and its secular self-determination. The middle class and the military have joined. Civil war is imminent.

I can see your desire to be an expert on the matter in every post, i am happy to accept it as long as you can provide your credentials making you an expert.

Otherwise your posts are just an opinion just as mine.

I do not live in a dream world, but reality.

Just yesterday i said army is rather useless and today already they struggled to control 2 fractions apart, and its only the start with much more to come.

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Pro-and-anti-Morsi-protests-rage-across-Egypt-leaving-at-least-24-dead-318904

[Steely Dan]

'Setback for Democracy': World Leaders Critical of Egyptian Coup

Leaders in Europe and elsewhere have expressed dismay at the coup which saw the Egyptian military topple the country's president on Wednesday night. Some are warning that it sets a "dangerous precedent" that could happen again.

Wednesday night's coup d'etat by the Egyptian military that toppled Mohammed Morsi as the country's Islamist leader and installed a temporary civilian government has been described as a "serious setback for democracy" by Germany. Leaders across Europe have expressed concern over the development, which saw the ouster of a democratic government just one year after Morsi took office

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/european-leaders-warn-of-setback-to-democracy-after-egypt-coup-a-909447.html

Dangerous president more like.

One facepalm is not enough, so here's two. How on earth can getting rid of a president who presided over ethnic cleansing of Egypt's Christians, a rape epidemic and the clear intent to base a constitution on Sharia law be considered a setback for democracy?! The original election, in which 20% of the population voted and held so quickly that no coherent opposition to the Muslim Brotherhood being given chance to establish was hardly democratic. It may take decades if not hundreds of years to get anything resembling true democracy to develop in the middle east, in the meantime a secular dictator is the lesser evil.

[Publicus]

After the big spring, came the cold winter.

Power has changed hands, but not much else has changed.

Perhaps the previous dictators were not as bad, and had to be dictators for obvious reasons.

Under Mubbarack, Egypt was fairly prosperous, and now???>>>>>>>>>>>>>>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

My god.

"Fairly prosperous"?!

Egyptian GDP from 1960 to 2010 averaged $1,040. That's not even "fairly" prosperous. That's a downright poor country, led by dictators.

GDP in 2012 was $1,976, which is an embarrassment, pathetic. Egypt's GDP per capita, adjusted for inflation, has yet to reach the $2000 mark.

GDP for 2011 was $1,975, so we see no change from the beginning of the Arab Spring to the present deposing of the Muslim Brotherhood which did nothing for the economy whatsoever. The Egyptian economy, a poor economy, has stalled, perhaps begun to break down.

For a half century Egypt had had a one party state dominated by the military and a dictator who came from the military as the leader. The parliament, speaking generously to call it such, was almost entirely of the same party as the president, to use another title very loosely.

For Egypt to begin to prosper, it needs a secular multi-party state, private enterprise, no or few state owned corporations, and a society that is free from censorship and free to be politically active and socially unrepressed. Neither dictatorship nor the Muslim Brotherhood offer anything close.

Forty percent of Egypt's population are between the ages of 15 to 24. While some of this demographic are radical Islamists, most are not and the moderates want to be able to determine their future.

The Egyptian middle class is yearning to breathe free, but it's a monumental struggle. They've overcome the long period of dictators. Now they need to drive out the extreme Islamists. Peace, freedom and prosperity don't come cheaply anywhere, anytime.

Edit to include source:

TRADING ECONOMICS.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/egypt/gdp-per-capita

[simple1]

'Setback for Democracy': World Leaders Critical of Egyptian Coup

Leaders in Europe and elsewhere have expressed dismay at the coup which saw the Egyptian military topple the country's president on Wednesday night. Some are warning that it sets a "dangerous precedent" that could happen again.

Wednesday night's coup d'etat by the Egyptian military that toppled Mohammed Morsi as the country's Islamist leader and installed a temporary civilian government has been described as a "serious setback for democracy" by Germany. Leaders across Europe have expressed concern over the development, which saw the ouster of a democratic government just one year after Morsi took office

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/european-leaders-warn-of-setback-to-democracy-after-egypt-coup-a-909447.html

Dangerous president more like.

One facepalm is not enough, so here's two. How on earth can getting rid of a president who presided over ethnic cleansing of Egypt's Christians, a rape epidemic and the clear intent to base a constitution on Sharia law be considered a setback for democracy?! The original election, in which 20% of the population voted and held so quickly that no coherent opposition to the Muslim Brotherhood being given chance to establish was hardly democratic. It may take decades if not hundreds of years to get anything resembling true democracy to develop in the middle east, in the meantime a secular dictator is the lesser evil.

When reviewing articles, blogs etc their is a broad concensus emerging that today's working democracies are "successful" as they are based upon ethnic, religious majority populations and the rule of law. A comment, that to me is relevant is "A democratic Middle East would be a remarkable triumph for humanity — but is it worth decades of sectarian violence and ethnic cleansing?"

In case you overlooked it in one of the URLs in this topic, another relevant quote:

As Margaret Thatcher once put it, “being democratic is not enough – a majority cannot turn what is wrong into right”. Freedom, she said, depends on the strength of the institutions: law and order, a free press, the police and an army that serves the government rather than supervises it. History is proving her right – in Russia, Afghanistan, Iraq and now in Egypt. The façade of democracy can be horribly deceptive; it is the strength of institutions that decides if nations rise or fall.

[lemoncake]

After the big spring, came the cold winter.

Power has changed hands, but not much else has changed.

Perhaps the previous dictators were not as bad, and had to be dictators for obvious reasons.

Under Mubbarack, Egypt was fairly prosperous, and now???>>>>>>>>>>>>>>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

My god.

"Fairly prosperous"?!

Egyptian GDP from 1960 to 2010 averaged $1,040. That's not even "fairly" prosperous. That's a downright poor country, led by dictators.

GDP in 2012 was $1,976, which is an embarrassment, pathetic. Egypt's GDP per capita, adjusted for inflation, has yet to reach the $2000 mark.

GDP for 2011 was $1,975, so we see no change from the beginning of the Arab Spring to the present deposing of the Muslim Brotherhood which did nothing for the economy whatsoever. The Egyptian economy, a poor economy, has stalled, perhaps begun to break down.

For a half century Egypt had had a one party state dominated by the military and a dictator who came from the military as the leader. The parliament, speaking generously to call it such, was almost entirely of the same party as the president, to use another title very loosely.

For Egypt to begin to prosper, it needs a secular multi-party state, private enterprise, no or few state owned corporations, and a society that is free from censorship and free to be politically active and socially unrepressed. Neither dictatorship nor the Muslim Brotherhood offer anything close.

The Egyptian middle class is yearning to breathe free, but it's a monumental struggle. They've overcome the long period of dictators. Now they need to drive out the extreme Islamists. Peace and prosperity don't come cheaply anywhere, anytime.

Again, for that period Egypt lived in peace and prospered from deals made with Israel and tourism, now its down the crapper and will continue down that path, until the next dictator

[Credo]

The countries which have turned away from other forms of gov't toward democracy are in a different position than many of the established democracies. First, many of those democracies were either a carbon copy of a parent country, or colonial power. Most of them also developed over a relatively long period of time to what they are today. Finally, the challenges that they faced were quite different. Most did not face scarcity of resources, financial/banking crisis and global conditions which put added pressure on them.

Egypt is no exception.

[Publicus]

After the big spring, came the cold winter.

Power has changed hands, but not much else has changed.

Perhaps the previous dictators were not as bad, and had to be dictators for obvious reasons.

Under Mubbarack, Egypt was fairly prosperous, and now???>>>>>>>>>>>>>>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

My god.

"Fairly prosperous"?!

Egyptian GDP from 1960 to 2010 averaged $1,040. That's not even "fairly" prosperous. That's a downright poor country, led by dictators.

GDP in 2012 was $1,976, which is an embarrassment, pathetic. Egypt's GDP per capita, adjusted for inflation, has yet to reach the $2000 mark.

GDP for 2011 was $1,975, so we see no change from the beginning of the Arab Spring to the present deposing of the Muslim Brotherhood which did nothing for the economy whatsoever. The Egyptian economy, a poor economy, has stalled, perhaps begun to break down.

For a half century Egypt had had a one party state dominated by the military and a dictator who came from the military as the leader. The parliament, speaking generously to call it such, was almost entirely of the same party as the president, to use another title very loosely.

For Egypt to begin to prosper, it needs a secular multi-party state, private enterprise, no or few state owned corporations, and a society that is free from censorship and free to be politically active and socially unrepressed. Neither dictatorship nor the Muslim Brotherhood offer anything close.

The Egyptian middle class is yearning to breathe free, but it's a monumental struggle. They've overcome the long period of dictators. Now they need to drive out the extreme Islamists. Peace and prosperity don't come cheaply anywhere, anytime.

Again, for that period Egypt lived in peace and prospered from deals made with Israel and tourism, now its down the crapper and will continue down that path, until the next dictator

Hard data don't mean much in the face of historical habits, i.e., the dogma of the strongman. I don't quote Margaret Thatcher but sometimes she actually said something worth noting.

Egypt had three wars against Israel, lost 'em all, finally made peace. Democratic Israel made much more of the peace than Egypt under dictators could ever imagine. And it didn't take Israel much time at all to get up and running as a democracy either.

[lemoncake]

After the big spring, came the cold winter.

Power has changed hands, but not much else has changed.

Perhaps the previous dictators were not as bad, and had to be dictators for obvious reasons.

Under Mubbarack, Egypt was fairly prosperous, and now???>>>>>>>>>>>>>>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

My god.

"Fairly prosperous"?!

Egyptian GDP from 1960 to 2010 averaged $1,040. That's not even "fairly" prosperous. That's a downright poor country, led by dictators.

GDP in 2012 was $1,976, which is an embarrassment, pathetic. Egypt's GDP per capita, adjusted for inflation, has yet to reach the $2000 mark.

GDP for 2011 was $1,975, so we see no change from the beginning of the Arab Spring to the present deposing of the Muslim Brotherhood which did nothing for the economy whatsoever. The Egyptian economy, a poor economy, has stalled, perhaps begun to break down.

For a half century Egypt had had a one party state dominated by the military and a dictator who came from the military as the leader. The parliament, speaking generously to call it such, was almost entirely of the same party as the president, to use another title very loosely.

For Egypt to begin to prosper, it needs a secular multi-party state, private enterprise, no or few state owned corporations, and a society that is free from censorship and free to be politically active and socially unrepressed. Neither dictatorship nor the Muslim Brotherhood offer anything close.

The Egyptian middle class is yearning to breathe free, but it's a monumental struggle. They've overcome the long period of dictators. Now they need to drive out the extreme Islamists. Peace and prosperity don't come cheaply anywhere, anytime.

Again, for that period Egypt lived in peace and prospered from deals made with Israel and tourism, now its down the crapper and will continue down that path, until the next dictator

Hard data don't mean much in the face of historical habits, i.e., the dogma of the strongman. I don't quote Margaret Thatcher but sometimes she actually said something worth noting.

Egypt had three wars against Israel, lost 'em all, finally made peace. Democratic Israel made much more of the peace than Egypt under dictators could ever imagine. And it didn't take Israel much time at all to get up and running as a democracy either.

We are not discussing Israel but Egypt. Egypt sold gas along with many other things including Israeli tourism, it was well coordinated, controlled and safe.

Since the fall, Egypt lost all Israeli tourists, other tourists, gas sales and everything else.

No democratically elected president will restore that, as too many forces will oppose it, a dictator can and will.

Mubarrack was corrupt, no doubt about that, but who is not in the region

[Publicus]

The ideology of the strongman dictator is bankrupt. This is the 21st century. You must like Thaksin too, which is your choice if so. And, by logical extension, you must like the CCP as well, which would not be good or acceptable.

I'd add that Europe and the United States can pontificate about coups with good reason. The coup in Thailand led to nothing good. This coup in Egypt does establish a terrible precedent and, as in the instance of Thailand in 2006, has the support of the middle class.

In the instance of Egypt, as with Thailand, the choice is always between the lesser of two evils. Hobson's choice is too common but real, banal. Let's hope the coup in Egypt turns out better than the coup in Thailand did. But we can only hope. Unfortunately, it's a roll of the dice.

[lemoncake]

The ideology of the strongman dictator is bankrupt. This is the 21st century. You must like Thaksin too, which is your choice if so. And, by logical extension, you must like the CCP as well, which would not be good or acceptable.

I'd add that Europe and the United States can pontificate about coups with good reason. The coup in Thailand led to nothing good. This coup in Egypt does establish a terrible precedent and, as in the instance of Thailand in 2006, has the support of the middle class.

In the instance of Egypt, as with Thailand, the choice is always between the lesser of two evils. Hobson's choice is too common but real, banal. Let's hope the coup in Egypt turns out better than the coup in Thailand did. But we can only hope. Unfortunately, it's a roll of the dice.

Many are not ready for independent thinking, many can not handle the freedom, Russia,Thailand, Iraq just to name a few are prime examples of that.

None of the Arab countries which went through the Spring or whatever you want to call it, ended up being in a better position.

All of them have gone backwards rather then forward with rise in extremism and violence.

[Publicus]

As usual, the United States gets the grief. The anti-coup statement by the Europeans seems to mean nothing to the reformers of Egypt.

Anyway, this is a different take on what has occurred that is worthy of consideration.

Its A Revolution. Not A Coup, Mr. Obama! | Egypt’s Al-Tahrir newspaper has a front-page message (in English) for President Obama

http://truth11.com/2013/07/05/its-a-revolution-not-a-coup-mr-obama-egypts-al-tahrir-newspaper-has-a-front-page-message-in-english-for-president-obama/

Mohamed Morsi ousted in Egypt's second revolution in two years

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/mohamed-morsi-egypt-second-revolution

Egypt News — Revolution and Aftermath

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/egypt/index.html

[Publicus]

The ideology of the strongman dictator is bankrupt. This is the 21st century. You must like Thaksin too, which is your choice if so. And, by logical extension, you must like the CCP as well, which would not be good or acceptable.

I'd add that Europe and the United States can pontificate about coups with good reason. The coup in Thailand led to nothing good. This coup in Egypt does establish a terrible precedent and, as in the instance of Thailand in 2006, has the support of the middle class.

In the instance of Egypt, as with Thailand, the choice is always between the lesser of two evils. Hobson's choice is too common but real, banal. Let's hope the coup in Egypt turns out better than the coup in Thailand did. But we can only hope. Unfortunately, it's a roll of the dice.

Many are not ready for independent thinking, many can not handle the freedom, Russia,Thailand, Iraq just to name a few are prime examples of that.

None of the Arab countries which went through the Spring or whatever you want to call it, ended up being in a better position.

All of them have gone backwards rather then forward with rise in extremism and violence.

The so called Arab Spring is a process. Presently, the process is most important to the outcome. People learn while they are processing and experiencing a process. The alternative view is one of no vision, no optimism, no realistic assessment of the present or future.

The opposite view, that of the historical strongman, is reactionary and defeatist.