Pm Thaksin Resigns

[sushiman]

[quote name='ColPyat' date='2006-04-09 13:21:47' post='710149'

16 million is anywhere considered a very strong mandate. I can't remember that ever in my homecountry with muti-party parliamentary democracy any party has been given such a huge majority.

do you know how many of those 16 Millions, would have choosen another party, if they had the chance to listen to them? Don't you agree that most of them vote because their village boss suggest them (in some cases even pay them) to do so? Please don't forget the public TV, which also still mainly pro TRT.

16 Million would have become much smaller, if other parties would also have the same cash, to run the same programs as TRT are doing and can do, thanks to the inner support of profiting company leaders and accociates. Money is an important factor to reach people and I don't believe those 16 Million people think for the longterm. It's understandable that when you can't crasp any savings, that you vote short-minded, unwillingly and not to be blamed at all.

Also only one party was running, and how many did even know what the No-Vote box was far? Come on get real here. Democratic elections work with a high rural population only if the campaining and voting purpose would be honest and open and a several parties would be running.

If it was honest, they wouldn't try to grasp the big cake now alone.

But with a mainly one-sided TV and oppressed media, this could go on forever. that's why the needed reforms and talks have to start sooner or later and are being suggested by the opposition PAD and opposition parties (3 major) and middle-class and several intelligent understanding people from day one since the debate openely started.

Not the battle to get the cake now by themselves. Once again wrong decision by TRT I believe.

They really could do better and distinguish the figher burning here in Thailand themselves.

Are they waiting for Thaksin to be in London and travelling, before they open their own opinions?

That would be interesting to learn what other TRT members think. So far it's looks like they all have to still follow their leaders opinion. or they think it's the best to do so ...

money talks ....shame ...

Edited April 9, 2006 by sushiman

[Siripon]

I'm glad to see that one point being brought up is the desire to tighten the rule regarding dissolving Parliament, dissolution will only be possible if there's problems with the legislature, unable to muster a majority vote, not because the PM doesn't want to answer questions about his business practices.

Right now TRT are focused on completing this election as soon as possible and getting a puppet PM installed. Their biggest concern must be if the election is annulled and Article 7 is invoked bringing in respected outsiders as the government, then they will have no control over constitutional reform and can claim no credit for it.

[sushiman]

Did he really resign or will he ever?

___________________________________________________________________________

The Nation - Breaking news

Story 1:

Thaksin to hold meeting of Thai Rak Thai MPs-elect on Tuesday

Thai Rak Thai Party leader Thaksin Shinawatra said on Sunday that he would meet party members on Tuesday when he holds a meeting with party's MPs-elect.

He said he would tell those who have won the April 2 election to be gratitude to the people who came out to protect democracy.

Thaksin said he would not discuss the post of next prime minister with the party on Tuesday as it would be "still too soon".

Story 2:

Thaksin indicates he will handpick next PM

Thai Rak Thai Party leader Thaksin Shinawatra gave a strong hint Sunday that he would pick his successor for the post of prime minister.

He gave the hint after reporters asked him to comment on growing calls by various factions inside Thai Rak Thai that party members wanted to have a say on selecting the next prime minister.

Thaksin said it was normal for the party executive members to come out to express their opinion but eventually they would have decipline.

When asked whether Thai Rak Thai MPs-elect would have a free say on who should be the next prime minister, Thaksin replied: "I have my own way. I won't say it now but I'll hold a meeting [with Thai Rak Thai executives,]" Thaksin said.

Source : The Nation

_______________________________________________________________________________

So I guess not really TRT is the problem her, it's mainly him. He can't leave his fingers out at all.

Yesterday he told he felt reburn not doing politics and today back to the old habits.

....really unbelievable short-minded and mood changing this guy!

Can anyone help me out here?

1) Does an elected PM or previous PM have the single right to get "Snap-Elections" going on, without consulting his own party? How are the things running e.g. in Europe, the same?

2) Does an elected PM or previous PM have the right, to choose all alone the next PM??

whatever the answers are here in Thailand, just another blow, of what Thaksin understand under Democracy. Use it to get power and than all they other 364 days a year, only bring up his own ideas.....

guys kick em out please....(TRT themselves or you will be all together on this sinking ship!)

unbelievable this Thaksin, makes me so furious

Edited April 9, 2006 by sushiman

[ColPyat]

Although I respect your well described (sorry my English is very bad) situation statement here, I still believe your postings are running in circles here, and not bringing any solution or proposition at all. Neither you like T-TRT nor the opposition trying to clean up corruption. What is your goal of your postings?

Well, if you believe that positive change comes quick in Thailand, than my posts might be interpreted as showing that you should be hopeless, because this is not going to happen, no matter which party is in power.

What my goal here is, is showing that the political situation is far more complex, and that the world here is not seperated by "the good" and "the bad", PAD being good, and Thaksin having the role of bad.

Just because the PAD is complaining and demonstrating against Thaksin does not make them any better than Thaksin. I try to point you with my posts to the underlying troubles of Thai society that are presently expressed in the ongoing political mess. Those underlying troubles are not solved by Thaksin's disappearance, and the way how Thaksin left office (temporarily or permanent will be seen in the future) does only further the far more worrying problems - the huge gap between the social classes and regions.

The phenomenon of Thaksin's rise cannot be simplified by an evil man with a devious plan taking over the country. I prefer the structuralist approach, and therefore certain parameters have to be in existence independent of Thaksin, which play a major role here. The resignation of Thaksin does not change the underlying problems Thai society is facing. Thaksin is only a product of Thai society's failings, and so is the PAD.

From this position of structural analysis i also try to point to the different possible consequences. Again, the hope of many, that Thaksin out of the picture would somehow magically solve Thailand's serious problems, with the opposition parties together with the momentum generated by the PAD and their demonstrations suddenly seeing the light, is an oversimplification driven by wishful thinking.

Thailand's serious problems deriving from decades of mismanaging the country, since the '32 revolution until today that never saw a true powershift to the people, only a different elites changing the doorknob, are only since the '97 crises coming to the surface again, since the years of communist insurgency. In this light i also view the present mess, as aftershocks of the '97 crises. You may argue that now "the people" finally speak, but what you consider as "the people" is only the more urban based middle classes. The South is not part of the PAD base, it only is temporarlily allied to the PAD as it is against Thaksin, and traditionally pro Democrat, taking advantage of the the situation.

Basically, the social structure that has led to the '97 crises have not been challenged by anyone. The Democrats have changed under the Chuan 2 government the economical structures, but have failed to adress the social structures. That is how Thaksin was able to get in. He has used these unchanged social structures in order to keep a certain status quo, while giving the rural poor a minimum of real attention, which though was far more than any previous government has done.

So far, the Democrats have failed to present any policy and vision how to intruduce necessary social changes. They are depending as TRT on the same vested interests, and that makes it more than difficult to introduce those changes.

The PAD is a conglomerate of all sorts. Their common denominator is to get rid of Thaksin. But that is where it ends. You got Sondhi, the crony capitalist with right wing philosophies. You got Chamlong with a religious fundamentalist nationalist extremist ideology. You got academics from all ideological backgrounds. You got in the background old guard political godfathers who see an opportunity to return to old profitable days. You got former communist cadres, you got socialist union leaders. How do you think that with such widely differing visions on Thailand's future there will ever be anything else than an agreement on the smallest common denominator?

All evidence points to one major result - an aera of extreme political and social instability lies ahead of us in Thailand.

My solution would be to avoid anything that furthers instability at the present moment. Even it means to let Thaksin rule for a bit longer. Sooner or later the rural poor will have to realise that his policies will not lead to their long term development. At that time they will vote him out in favour of a more sane government. And then true development will have a strong mandate from most sectors of society.

[marshbags]

O.K. all you TRT supporters, it,s now been a full week since the election and to my knowledge we still haven,t had any true figures ( official ) on the voting.

WHY ?

Thaksin was supposed to be taking a long/ short/extended break from politics and leaving a substitute in charge and taking a complete break.

HOW come he,s openly still active and organising / delegating a meeting for Tuesday.

Quotes from the Nation this afternoon:-

Breaking News (1)

Thaksin to hold meeting of Thai Rak Thai MPs-elect on Tuesday

Thai Rak Thai Party leader Thaksin Shinawatra said on Sunday that he would meet party members on Tuesday when he holds a meeting with party's MPs-elect.

He said he would tell those who have won the April 2 election to be gratitude to the people who came out to protect democracy.

Thaksin said he would not discuss the post of next prime minister with the party on Tuesday as it would be "still too soon"...........................................................................

............................................................ended

Breaking News (2)

Thaksin indicates he will handpick next PM

Thai Rak Thai Party leader Thaksin Shinawatra gave a strong hint Sunday that he would pick his successor for the post of prime minister.

He gave the hint after reporters asked him to comment on growing calls by various factions inside Thai Rak Thai that party members wanted to have a say on selecting the next prime minister.

Thaksin said it was normal for the party executive members to come out to express their opinion but eventually they would have decipline.

When asked whether Thai Rak Thai MPs-elect would have a free say on who should be the next prime minister, Thaksin replied: "I have my own way. I won't say it now but I'll hold a meeting [with Thai Rak Thai executives,]" Thaksin said............................................................................

.................................ended

He says repeatedly he will do this and that when being interviewed " nearly always "

WE should be applicable i think, don,t you ?

What happened to all the other elected members of the TRT or do they not have a democratic say on anything ?

It doesn,t take a rocket scientist or a fool to observe his true intentions and who is TRT at this time.

Once a con man always a con man.

Verbal Diarrhoea comes to mind.

The original protest where to get him out, by the way, not an election.

This is not what all the unrest is about ( election ) and you all know this.

All that will happen is the TRT will start to loose creditability big time if they do not take control and

go forward without him.

Should he prove at a later date all the charges rising against him are NOT true ( and do so with transparency to satisfy all at a nuetral enquiry )

Then and only then, he will have the right to return to the government should they still be in power, should the TRT still want him.

Not before !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

T.Visa,s many debates where based on the above and the reasons for and against.

Not for personal vendettas if i may be allowed to add as this is non productive and puts lots of posters off and from continuing, apart from reading selected comments.

Why are these people allowed to take over these discussions, taking them out of control and into chaos.

Make your case and allow others to make theirs without slagging someone off and going crazy.

I look forward to new debates that are relevant and appropiate to the events unfolding.

We truly are covering old ground in this thread in my humble opinion.

If you do not believe me look back on the thread when things really where interesting and most posters having reasonable debate.

Most have now logged off.............................................................................

.............

Apart from JD who is still providing " news updates " and deserves a commendation for doing so.

Well done again JD for your continued imput from one of many

marshbags

Edited April 9, 2006 by marshbags

[TAWP]

Handpick a handpuppet.

[sushiman]

Well, if you believe that positive change comes quick in Thailand, than my posts might be interpreted as showing that you should be hopeless, because this is not going to happen, no matter which party is in power. What my goal here is, is....etc. read above

Fair points as well, I agree and nicely layed out, the current situation.

Of course I still believe the stability will surely not come with the TRT and their puppet care-shaker if they will continue like this. If Thai people don't take the chance now, it looks like we will have 10 more years of TRT's unopen political theatre in front of us. If you prefer this, than good luck to Thailand.

Can anyone help me out here? Showcase here in Thailand:

1) Does an elected PM or previous PM have the single right to get "Snap-Elections" going on, without consulting his own party? How are the things running e.g. in Europe, the same?

2) Does an elected PM or previous PM have the right, to choose the new PM (caretaker or whatever you want to call it) without consulting his own party?

Edited April 9, 2006 by sushiman

[sushiman]

If you do not believe me look back on the thread when things really where interesting and most posters having reasonable debate.

Most have now logged off.............................................................................

.............

-----------------

Hi Marschbags,

I think no wonder, if TRT just ignores the half country and just continues as nothing has happened. People get frustrated and maybe give up, even posting.

The problem is nothing is going forwards in this country. Even events like the election results are most propably stuck by some fraud somewhere, and the courts stop all complaints against the ruling party as well. It's frustrating, and I understand the foreigners, who are fed up of this stuff, as nothing is moving towards any compromised direction. People in power just ignore the complaints, and they stick to their plus points (police and military powers) and go play golf meanwhile or go visit motorshows to calm themselves.

Even the older more experienced posters, maybe just give up too, as they heard and seen these stories in this country so many times before. I understand them all.

And also yung shouts like myself, maybe have to learn one day, that this is not Europe.

TIT = This is Thailand

and things maybe won't change so quickly even if wrongdoings are clearly on the table.

However I still have hope and think the Thai People will fight for their right, this time for sure.

It's just breaktime, Songkarn and all maybe understand that noone can do anything until this

master has his puppet installed. Than it's up to the new one to go to continue in the old shoes, or bring up some compromise, for the benefit of Thailand. The old man clearly is unbeatable in ignoring critics.

to much power for one elected PM here, hope this can change in the future too.

Enjoy your day folks

[Siripon]

Ah, the colonel is talking about income distribution, a point never referred to by TRT.

I have to disagree that the poor would eventually see through Thaksin, but that is a moot point.

The point is how could TRT consider income distribution when its leaders and backers are major industrialists and businessmen?-Thaksin, Suriya, Adisai, Suriya(Picnic), Dhanin, Channel 3 owners, Grammy(Paiboon),etc.

Every party in Thailand needs money, although at least under the Constitution parties are funded partly by the taxpayer, and The Democrats are no exception.

In the mid 90s, Jarern, the mega rich owner of beer Chang,etc would back every horse: NAP, Democrats, Chart Pattana, Chart Thai, I'm sure Mr Dhanin,CP owner, did the same.

What is the hourly rate of a 7-11( owned by CP) employee? something like 25 baht an hour!

The labour unions in Thailand are weak, riven by factions and vested interests, they haven't been able to promote a sense of a working class, plus many companies only employ a few people, the owners try to promote a sense of a"family business'', employees are like their children, hard to build a sense of solidarity among the pitifully paid employees in cases like this.

Those in power say they want Thailand to be between the powerful economies of Japan, Korea and the low income,cheap labour economies of China, Indonesia- in other words look for niche markets, products Thailand can excel at, but in a capitalist world isn't the object of every company to reduce labour costs to the minimum?

Many companies subcontract workers, thus avoiding benefits and security of employment.

Colonel, are you going to lead the revolution?

[ilyushin]

Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason.

[ColPyat]

Ah, the colonel is talking about income distribution, a point never referred to by TRT.

I have to disagree that the poor would eventually see through Thaksin, but that is a moot point.

The point is how could TRT consider income distribution when its leaders and backers are major industrialists and businessmen?-Thaksin, Suriya, Adisai, Suriya(Picnic), Dhanin, Channel 3 owners, Grammy(Paiboon),etc.

Every party in Thailand needs money, although at least under the Constitution parties are funded partly by the taxpayer, and The Democrats are no exception.

In the mid 90s, Jarern, the mega rich owner of beer Chang,etc would back every horse: NAP, Democrats, Chart Pattana, Chart Thai, I'm sure Mr Dhanin,CP owner, did the same.

What is the hourly rate of a 7-11( owned by CP) employee? something like 25 baht an hour!

The labour unions in Thailand are weak, riven by factions and vested interests, they haven't been able to promote a sense of a working class, plus many companies only employ a few people, the owners try to promote a sense of a"family business'', employees are like their children, hard to build a sense of solidarity among the pitifully paid employees in cases like this.

Those in power say they want Thailand to be between the powerful economies of Japan, Korea and the low income,cheap labour economies of China, Indonesia- in other words look for niche markets, products Thailand can excel at, but in a capitalist world isn't the object of every company to reduce labour costs to the minimum?

Many companies subcontract workers, thus avoiding benefits and security of employment.

Colonel, are you going to lead the revolution?

Leading the revolution? Is that an offer?

I can't disagree with your post, other than that you believe that the poor would not have seen through Thaksin. I believe that circumstances would have forced them to see through him, latest at the point when the big round of land reposession starts.

Yes, it was a rather smart strategy of the TRT to promote themselves upcountry as the party for the poor man, led by this alleged rags to riches busines genius, and not telling that in fact it was backed by the most blatanly rich crony capitalist families.

But i have my doubts that those will now leave Thai politics. They just back whoever is opportune at the time being.

[jdinasia]

Well .... the Hubris displayed by Thaksin will bite him in the butt soon enough (yet again). The guys crying ... "is isn't democratic" will likely realize that in a situation where someone sets themselves up to run a country in the form of a "parlaimentary dictatorship" and is beyond censure isn't a democracy either.

Gotta work on plurailsm and checks and balances ... otherwise you get large groups of people completely left out of the process. People can say that the rural North and Isaan have been left out in the past ... but that wouldn't be accurate

Good governance requires fiscal responsability as well as being aware of all the groups of people that SHOULD be represented ...

Let's hope it happens soon

[sushiman]

Home > National > 'Awk-pai' just the beginning for anti-Thaksin crowd

LETTER FROM SANAM LUANG - 50'000 people

'Awk-pai' just the beginning for anti-Thaksin crowd

The orderly anti-Thaksin crowd were all there at Sanam Luang on Friday night. It was meant to be a precautionary farewell among the allies, a gathering to celebrate the victory of people's power.

It has been a long journey for the group from that first rally at the Royal Plaza on February 4 when the crowd started roaring "Thaksin Awk-pai" - the mantra that bellowed out over the streets of Bangkok as they marched from site to site for nigh on two months.

When Thaksin Shinawatra announced he would not accept the post of prime minister when a new parliament convenes, the "Thaksin Awk-pai" chant lost much of its impact. So the baying of the hounds was little heard on Friday night. That aside, Friday's meeting was a dream-come-true thanks to their orderly behaviour and peaceful unity.

Who would have thought that rally after rally involving massive numbers in such a short space of time would not have produced some violence? Isn't that a victory to be proud of? Regardless of the venue - from the Royal Plaza, Sanam Luang, Makkawan Ransan Bridge, and in front of Siam Paragon - and the size of the crowd, we never heard of even a single bottle being thrown. To the dismay of the government, this "disobedient crowd" was also able to march to Government House in an obedient way.

Knowing Thais, most gatherings invariably involve alcohol. Not so throughout the anti-Thaksin rallies. On offer on the grounds were soft drinks, Thai snacks and easy-to-cook Thai dishes.

Except for two cases - a protester dying from dehydration and an accident in which a van hit a protester - the rallies held by the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) could safely be declared "non-violent" and acts of "civil disobedience". It was indeed a masterpiece to show the powers-that-be the quality of those who made up the crowd that wanted to get rid of Thaksin.

From day one, the rallies retained their unique atmosphere and it developed and grew. The entertainment programmes on stage expanded from a few "songs-for-life" bands to all kinds of music. A Chinese Opera troupe came up with more and more gags, producing gems of political satire.

Statement T-shirts diversified rapidly from the popular "square-face" to many other messages involving democracy. Street vendors who experienced a brisk business added more and more to their wares as time passed.

Photographs might show the crowd was fashionable with their statement T-shirts and protest accessories. They might be portrayed as fun-loving people, laughing at satirical Chinese Opera and humming along with songs-for-life artists. Yet they succeeded in demonstrating that they came to every single rally with a serious intent. They were the group that knew their rights and understood the meaning of peaceful assembly.

The anti-Thaksin demonstrators have now tasted the sweetness of victory. The gatherings were the biggest democratic protest and perhaps the longest-running in Thai political historyThe crowd came from all walks of life, covering a wide range of professions. Age-wise, the demonstrators ranged from infants to senior citizens. . (comment sushiman: Mobbers??)

On Friday night, there was one very significant indication that the fight for true democracy had not only started but was going to be continued on solid foundations.I spotted a long line - nothing uncommon at the rallies. But this time they weren't lining up for food or anti-Thaksin products, but to sign up to democracy groups and give their contacts.

The PAD and Chulalongkorn University's networks for democracy received overwhelming responses as the queues were long and people didn't move away, even though it started raining at almost 11pm. It seemed everybody realised that the group had won the battle but there was more tough work ahead. Now the common goal shared by the anti-Thaksin crowd was not "Thaksin Awk-pai" any more. It is political reform and a complete end to the Thaksin regime.

The message of the demonstrators is clear. They have won the battle but the war is still raging. So it was a cautious farewell for all, knowing full well that they may have to regroup when needs be.

The fight for democracy will go on. For the demonstrators who gave their time to join the rallies and marches, braved the traffic and put up with dirty toilets, your effort has paid off.

Things would not have turned out the way they have if each of you had not decided to leave home to join the rallies. As for me, I have no regrets. Hopefully, this will be my last letter from an anti-Thaksin gathering. It is a farewell. But a precautionary one.

Veena Thoopkrajae

Source: The Nation 09April2006

The Nation Online

Edited April 9, 2006 by sushiman

[ColPyat]

Who would have thought that rally after rally involving massive numbers in such a short space of time would not have produced some violence? Isn't that a victory to be proud of? Regardless of the venue - from the Royal Plaza, Sanam Luang, Makkawan Ransan Bridge, and in front of Siam Paragon - and the size of the crowd, we never heard of even a single bottle being thrown. To the dismay of the government, this "disobedient crowd" was also able to march to Government House in an obedient way.

The letter writer has conveniently forgotten the incidents at Royal Plaza where at each of the two demonstrations a lonely Thaksin supporter was attacked by the crowd. Fortunately those lonely Thaksin supporters were shielded from the kicks and fists and whisked away quickly.

More reasons that the demonstrations were largely violent free was that the police were extremely careful in their approach, and that the government hindered the counter-demonstrations to come anywhere near the PAD rallies.

What i try to say here is, that the almost non-violence of the events were also because the authorities were unusually tolerant in their approach to the rallies.

[lukamar]

Rural Thais await return of "Thaksin the hero"

NAKHON PATHOM, Thailand (Reuters) -

Thai rice farmer Wichien Tata says he has little time to think about politics.

But when other farmers asked him to join them on a trip to Bangkok to show support for beleaguered prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, he went without a second thought.

"He's done so much for us, I wanted to give something back," said Wichien, 52, now back at his home on the outskirts of rural Nakhon Pathom town after about a week on the road.

When Thaksin stepped aside earlier this week after an inconclusive snap election, Wichien felt nothing but bewilderment.

"I don't know about other people, but I feel like it's a real shame. I don't understand why he had to go. No one else has ever helped us," he said, sipping icy green soda from a plastic bag -- his lunch for the day.

"People in Bangkok, they make 100,000 baht a month," he said of the equivalent of $2,600. "They are already developed and don't need Thaksin. People like us, we'd be lucky to make 10,000 baht. We need him."

A push by the urban middle class to oust Thaksin after his family's tax-free $1.9 billion sale of the telecoms firm he founded seems far-off to those in Nakhon Pathom, a flat stretch of rice and fruit fields 80 km west of Bangkok.

Unlike in Bangkok, where Thaksin is accused of corruption, cronyism and abuse of power, in the countryside he is a hero who has provided cheap health care and debt relief and fought illegal drugs.

"We're regular people. We don't really talk politics. We talk about how to live day-to-day," said construction worker Supai, 36, playing in the backyard of his home with his three sons.

"Of course we like him. Look, whoever gives us money is good. It's all the same to us as long as we get some money."

GENIE FROM A BOTTLE

Supai, like those around him, echoes a deep divide between Bangkok -- where one-fifth of Thais live but which makes up nearly half of the economy -- and the countryside, which analysts say has been ignored for too long.

"The genie's out of the bottle. The rural populace has been empowered," said a Bangkok-based analyst who declined to be identified. "And you're never going to be able to change that."

Indeed, the rural populace helped Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai (TRT) party gain 55.6 percent of the April 2 vote, allowing Thaksin to claim a victory. But a boycott by opposition parties left parliament seats unfilled, mainly in the anti-Thaksin south.

Now the main opposition parties, citing a need for political reform, are again boycotting by-elections on April 23 meant to fill the 39 empty seats from last weekend's poll.

Only a full parliament can elect a new prime minister to replace Thaksin, who remains leader of his Thai Rak Thai party, but parliament must convene within 30 days of the April 2 poll.

The continued uncertainty has been greeted with derision in Thailand's countryside, where 70 percent of the country's 63 million people live but which contributes less than 10 percent to economic output.

"I don't like the Democrats. They said terrible things about the prime minister and ruined all his projects," said watermelon hawker Hakiew Sae-gno, 61, about the biggest opposition party.

"He (Thaksin) is a big, important person who helps our king and takes care of us. If he doesn't pay tax that's his right."

Egg vendor Mhu, 56, has put away the "Thaksin, fight!" banner displayed in her store on election day, but she hopes he will return when the political storm blows over.

"People in Bangkok seem jealous that Thaksin is richer than they are," she said. "I hope he comes back. There is no one else who could possibly take his place."

[lukamar]

Have protesters destroyed democracy in Thailand?

2006/4/7 The China Post

By Frank Zeller BANGKOK, AFP

Mass protests may have pushed Thailand's prime minister to step aside, but what some hail as a triumph of people power others see as a disaster for democracy.

"The question is whether the protesters have not overstepped the boundary from a legitimate democratic culture to mob rule," said political scientist Michael Nelson, a visiting scholar at Chulalongkorn University.

Thaksin Shinawatra stunned Thailand with his decision Tuesday, two days after winning re-election in a poll that had been boycotted by three main opposition parties, which declined to field a single candidate.

Thaksin stepped aside after months of demonstrations in Bangkok, where a minority of urban dwellers despised his autocratic leadership. But he was elected with a clear majority thanks to a largely poor and rural support base.

He announced his decision just hours after a private audience with revered King Bhumibol Adulyadej.

Some analysts wonder if democracy has been subverted, and if the Bangkok elite effectively disenfranchised rural voters.

"Thaksin was hugely popular and was by far the biggest vote winner," said Robert Broadfoot, head of the Hong Kong-based Political and Economic Risk Consultancy. "It's disastrous for democracy in Thailand."

Some see the protests as the political maturing of the middle-class in a country where, not too long ago, political instability ended with tanks rumbling though the streets.

"The question used to be, 'is it legitimate for the military to keep coming in?'" said James Klein, head of the Asia Foundation in Thailand.

"Now you've moved beyond that in saying the politicians must also be ethical to maintain legitimacy. And that's a new issue in the last decade."

He pointed out that while French youths have clashed with riot police in their recent labor law protests, the Bangkok rallies were peaceful.

"We have an elected prime minister who has been forced to step down due to a lack of legitimacy, despite an overwhelming mandate," said Thitinan Pongsudhirak, a political scientist at Bangkok's Chulalongkorn University.

"It says winning a big landslide does not allow a prime minister to engage in corruption, to violate the constitution. You cannot just do anything you want because you won the election."

But Thitinan also warned that unleashing "people power" could set a dangerous precedent for the young democracy.

"The potential drawback is that if they don't do it properly, we will get into a situation where we become like the Philippines," Thitinan said.

"We'd have a street protest every six months because we don't like the prime minister. If you have 10,000 people and you just go and surround Government House and protest, it's going to make for an unworkable government."

Thai political culture has traditionally been marred by patronage and vote-buying, and Thaksin's critics charge the former policeman and telecoms tycoon bought rural votes to cement his party's power base.

"Thaksin has delivered a lot of goods and services to the countryside, which had been neglected for many years," said Thitinan. "So we have this income-based urban-rural divide, which Thaksin has exploited very shrewdly.

"The urban intelligensia care about other things. They care about values, legitimacy, corruption, constitutional violations. To them, these are values that supersede economic policies that could benefit them."

Marc Gopin, director of the Center for World Religions, Diplomacy and Conflict Resolution at George Mason University outside Washington, said he thought the protesters had the right motivations.

"Elections are a small part of democracy," he said. "Fascism feeds on uninformed populations that are easily fooled."

"The real benchmarks of democracy are the rule of law, human rights, free speech, among other things. The elite of Thailand understand well that this man was taking advantage of the weaknesses inherent in electioneering."

Chulalongkorn's Nelson blamed "capital city arrogance" and charged that the twice-elected premier's demise "basically amounted to a disenfranchisement of most people living outside Bangkok."

"They said people living in the countryside are uneducated, have no access to proper political information and can't make a reasonable judgement," the scholar said.

"It's saying, we Bangkok people are morally superior and for this reason the votes of people cast in rural areas don't count as much as our votes here."

[lukamar]

Backsliding in Bangkok

Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service

The following editorial appeared in the Chicago Tribune on Wednesday, April 5:

---

In modern Thailand, changes in government have been accomplished more often by coups than by elections. It's hard to tell which approach succeeded in ousting Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who resigned Tuesday after an election boycotted by candidates from all the major opposition parties.

Thaksin's ruling party got 16 million votes, or 57 percent of the total in Sunday's parliamentary elections. But 10 million others checked the "abstain" box on the ballot, a resounding vote of no confidence in the prime minister. Two days later, Thaksin said he would step down.

Opponents who staged two months of street demonstrations to force him from office might be inclined to say all's well that ends well. But they have a big mess to clean up, and it's not clear how they're going to do it, since they didn't field any candidates for parliament.

After Thailand became a constitutional monarchy in 1932, the reins of power were passed back and forth through a fitful series of often bloodless uprisings until 1992, when democracy finally seemed to get a foothold.

But this latest episode feels like backsliding. Middle-class voters angry over Thaksin's alleged abuses of power knew they'd be outnumbered at the ballot box. So they tried to force him out the old-fashioned way: through mob rule.

Night after night, angry crowds of up to 100,000 have snarled traffic in the capital city of Bangkok, calling on Thaksin to quit.

A billionaire who campaigned on a promise to run the country like a business, Thaksin fell out of favor with many by filling the government with cronies, handing big contracts to his friends and muzzling the press. After he used his position to facilitate the tax-free sale of his family media empire to a Singapore state company, his opponents decided he had to go.

But Thaksin is beloved by the rural poor who make up about 80 percent of the population. His administration has provided debt relief for farmers, loans for poor villages and virtually free health care for all. Confident of that support, Thaksin tried to silence his urban critics by dissolving the parliament and calling for elections three years early.

Assessing their chances of winning, the country's three major opposition parties refused to participate, instead intensifying their street protests. After the vote, as Thaksin initially claimed victory, they promised to keep up the protests until he resigned.

Now he has. But it's hard to see this as a step forward for Thailand.

By boycotting the election, the opposition parties succeeded in changing leaders, but not much else. If they want to influence the country's future, they'll have to do it the hard way. That means coming up with candidates who will run the government the way they think it should be run - instead of simply throwing out the ones who won't.

[sushiman]

The letter writer has conveniently forgotten the incidents at Royal Plaza where at each of the two demonstrations a lonely Thaksin supporter was attacked by the crowd ??. Fortunately those lonely Thaksin supporters were shielded from the kicks and fists and whisked away quickly.

More reasons that the demonstrations were largely violent free was that the police were extremely careful in their approach, and that the government hindered the counter-demonstrations to come anywhere near the PAD rallies.

What i try to say here is, that the almost non-violence of the events were also because the authorities were unusually tolerant in their approach to the rallies.

ColPyat, you are really to critical, you sound like TS sometimes, trying to pick a little brown grass in a whole field, and make a fuss about it and turn a whole story around! If you mean that maniac who was running into the rally and shouting like mad, they by the way just pushed him out, because he was trying to make some trouble, as there were trying to listen to someone speaking on the stage.

For the police (military too) you are right, they were also great so far, but there was clearly no reason for any intervention so far too, right? Do we want to lock-up students, grand-mothers,

professors, banker ladies etc. etc. for raising their voices?

We know now meanwhile you are bit scared of further demonstrations and PAD actions, and you believe the country will be damaged by this, but don't also forget the PAD were fully co-operation with the police at all times, so what's your fuss and pin-pointing about now again? For one little incidient within several months with more than 1 Million on the streets?

Why don't you mention some peacefully? TRT friends, which were heated up by Thaksin (Chiang Mai: Will you help to fight my way through to my gov-office, he asked an upheated x-tousand fans in a stadium?) which one week later, broke into a official Democrat rally in Chiang Mai and disturbed an information gathering so unfriendly, that it made the whole country shamefull about this incident.

What about the motorbike guys throwing things to the Manager Online building? Why you always come up with your unlogical PAD opposition bashings? Doesn't make any sense to me at all. I think these were the most peaceful, most probably most sensefull demonstrations for a long time in Thai History. If a view idiots do some wrong things, among protesters of x-tausend, doesn't make sense to me to blame the whole lot. PAD fans, also don't march with banners, in the middle of a TRT rally, it was a stupid thing of him to go there, anyway in the first place, I would say.

We know there are idiots on both sides, but so far, the PAD have done much more to prevent peace than our PM himself I would say. Did you ever see how he heat's up the crowd, and turns suddelney friends into dogs, within days? And then claims he's very tolerant (on the same time I remember his interview, where he said he would have cleaned up a long time ago, but his TRT members wouldn't let him do so) just because the Military and Police don't agree actually with his very own tactics, he would surely use if he could.

Nobody want's violence here, only idiots, and yes it's possible there will be more coming soon, if this upheating by the TRT is continueing to mind boggle more Thai folks.

Let's hope it stays like this

PS/ Try to get some sun, and look at it and stop black-washing all actions in this country I suggest you

Edited April 9, 2006 by sushiman

[sushiman]

SECOND-ROUND VOTE

District hopping slammed

Democrats accuse small-party candidates of accepting massive bribes to switch constituencies to help TRT win seats.

Hopes of forming a government deteriorated further into chaos yesterday as more allegations of electoral violations compounded the turmoil faced by the election authorities.

As the Election Commission (EC) races against time to convene a new House of Representatives by May 2, the final date set by the Constitution, the Democrat Party raised accusations of constituency hopping to help the Thai Rak Thai Party pick up seats in the by-elections on April 23.

Six candidates from Thai Rak Thai will contest the second round of voting unopposed again in four southern provinces. To gain election, they will need to win support from at least 20 per cent of the eligible voters.

Three of them will be standing in Songkhla and one each in Chumphon, Yala and Narathiwat.

Thai Rak Thai candidates won votes numbered in the thousands in the April 2 election compared to the tens of thousands who voted for no political party. Observers say it is highly likely the solitary Thai Rak Thai candidates will fail to get the minimum number of votes.

The second round of voting on April 23 will be held in 39 constituencies in 16 provinces, most of them in the South, the stronghold of the Democrat Party.

Election commissioner Prinya Nakchudtree said yesterday the commission would discuss whether another decree would be needed to call a third round of voting if the April 23 ballot failed to fill all 500 House seats.

The Democrats yesterday raised suspicions of constituency hopping by candidates from smaller parties. They said this could violate the electoral law.

The Democrats found candidates from six small parties who stood and lost in the April 2 election registered again over the weekend to run in other constituencies where Thai Rak Thai candidates would otherwise be standing unopposed, Democrat spokesman Ong-art Klampaiboon said.

These "suspicious acts" took place in 12 constituencies.

"The law states one has the right to register in one constituency and cannot move to register to any other constituency. We don't know how the EC allowed this to happen," Ong-art said.

Some of those who registered in another constituency were Pakdee Naboon, Thai Citizen Party candidate in Nakhon Si Thammarat's constituency 7 (moved to constituency 1); Kanok Jitmala (Thai Citizen Party) moved to constituency 2 from constituency 5; and Khonkhoplodnee Party candidate Soporn Chankaew from constituency 3 to 9.

A candidate from the Pattana Chartthai Party in constituency 10 of Nakhon Si Thammarat, Prayoon Boonchan, who the EC is considering disqualifying after the April 2 election, had registered in Phuket's constituency 2, Ong-art said.

Chat Thai Party deputy leader Somsak Prissanananthakul said the party was concerned the Parliament would not get all 500 MPs and would not be able to be convened.

"The questionable poll made Thailand look like a laughing stock in international eyes," he said.

"Especially the second round of balloting in 38 constituencies in which candidates from small parties are switching from their original constituencies to another in order to allow candidates of 'a certain party' to beat the minimum 20 per cent of eligible voters," Somsak said.

Last week the Democrats petitioned the Central Administrative Court to cancel the EC's ruling for a second round of balloting, claiming it might be illegal as the law says only failed candidates could be fielded in the by-elections.

The court is expected to rule next week on whether the case merits judicial review.

Democrat Party deputy spokesman Sathit Pitutecha said according to election laws, when the EC announced a new round of candidate registrations the candidates should draw for a new number.

But the EC allowed the Thai Rak Thai Party candidates to get number 2, the same number when they first registered to run in the April 2 election, while candidates from others parties had to draw for new numbers. That would give an advantage to the party, Sathit said.

He said the Administrative Court will today seek an explanation from the EC about the case.

"I have heard that it's hard to find a qualified candidate from other parties to register in the South to avoid the minimum 20 per cent vote. That's why the cost to hire those candidates to contest the repeat election is higher than in the first round of the election, up to seven from six figures," he said.

Source: The Nation 10APR06 - click here to visit the Nation

[cclub75]

Democrats accuse small-party candidates of accepting massive bribes to switch constituencies to help TRT win seats.

So what TRT is going to do ?

They managed to bribe small parties in 31 constituencies. OK.

But we still have 7, in the south, with only one candidate (TRT).

They lost on 2 april (because of the 20% rule). They will lost on the 23 !

Quorum for the house will not be reached... So what are the options ?

-new PM and government appointed by the King and new general elections called after a certain amount of time

-new round of elections in the 7 constituencies (ah non, because there is another rule : the house must meet maximum 30 days after the elections...).

We are serioulsy making circles here....

[Jai Dee]

TRT to hold a meeting to discuss about the new PM

Caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra stated that the votes from Thai Rak Thai party members will be needed for consideration of the most suitable candidate to hold the post of prime minister.

TRT leader talked about the selection of the most appropriate candidate for the post of Prime Minister, adding that it is too early to make conclusion. He said he together with the core figures of TRT will hold a meeting to discuss on this issue again. However, caretaker premier revealed that the candidate should come from the party MPs and said that the votes from party members are essential.

He insisted that no conflicts have occurred among the party members. Mr Thaksin disclosed that he will attend the party meeting on the 11th of April, when the members discuss the general political situation.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 10 April 2006

[ColPyat]

ColPyat, you are really to critical, you sound like TS sometimes, trying to pick a little brown grass in a whole field, and make a fuss about it and turn a whole story around! If you mean that maniac who was running into the rally and shouting like mad, they by the way just pushed him out, because he was trying to make some trouble, as there were trying to listen to someone speaking on the stage.

.....

PS/ Try to get some sun, and look at it and stop black-washing all actions in this country I suggest you

Well, the situation we have here right now is nothing to be happy about - a parliament that cannot be opened, nobody knows who possibly could be next prime minister, nobody knows when, and if there might be elections again, nobody knows when, how and if the constitution is going to be amended, and by whom. The population is more polarized than in over 30 years (when Thailand had a civil war). Infrastructure projects especially in Bangkok are put on hold. Possible foreign investors stay away until the situation is resolved, but there is no end in sight.

Yeah, getting some sun will definately help.

By the way, i don't think that i am alone in my less than enthusiastic assessment of the political situation. Have you read the articles from the international media provided by lukamar? The damage that has been done Thailand by the ongoing mess is huge, and as there is no end in sight, it will do much more damage.

And, i have no time for propagandistic writing, from both sides of the fence. This letter writer was one sided propaganda all along, it has nothing to do with anything resembling journalism and should never have been printed by The Nation.

[sushiman]

To Colpyat comment above,

nice you have some humour too. I need some sun too

Of course I read international news and especially everything we all drop here. Did you ever see any international news having hopes for changes coming from the people, or non-governmental bodies? Very seldom, right? It's more about biz-news talk here, and the short-term implications, that some demonstrations may effect the economy. But we clearly have to think mid-to longterm here.

Of course the situation is not fun for Thailand, your right, but especially we foreigners, shouldn't be to stiff on it too, and try to enjoy life as well and also see the good sides that both parties maybe have and not only base our observations on critics only. But still I believe this situation is not to bad too, as the outcome could be a more open, controlled and a teenager (more grown-up) Democracy here in Thailand.

If only TRT wouldn't grasp the whole cake alone so desperately now. They are still waiting I guess for Thaksins real departure.

It's more like a football game at this moment, instead of all sitting together and try to solve the problem. Let's see if some heads can cool down, after holiday, and TRT will finally open some doors, as they promised to do so. Guess with so much power, alot is also depending on the moods and actions of Mr. Thaksin too.

Can he bring some real hope now, for the country, after he had his big pay day?

Or is it all about this, to protect it now? Again why doesn't he offer some cash to the new gov. (How the heck does he and his family want to spend all that money they achieved during his government ruling?) and cool down some allegations if some part of the money would be used for some good cause.

He's just another "Cheap Charly" I guess

I clearly think if he would share his profits for good cause, he could escape allegations, and Thailand would be a more optimistic place to live in and and people would more have trust again in the goverment, if they had the chance to proove that they also can help the country to get back on track.

With less corruption and greedy acts in the future please, of course. Less media control, more real independence for watchdogs and less power for one single person!

Hopes .....

Edited April 10, 2006 by sushiman

[lukamar]

Democrats accuse small-party candidates of accepting massive bribes to switch constituencies to help TRT win seats.

For the last month the Democrats have been accusing everyone and everything of collusion it's beginning to get old. One thing is certain they have lost a vast amount of credibility themselves because they appear to be causing problems rather than working to repair them.

So what TRT is going to do ?

Sit tight and wait for a decision from the EC and Constitutional court.

They managed to bribe small parties in 31 constituencies. OK.

But we still have 7, in the south, with only one candidate (TRT).

They lost on 2 april (because of the 20% rule). They will lost on the 23 !

Bribery is an allegation something that surfaces every election with every party. TRT will probably loose the majority of the seats in the by-elections.

Quorum for the house will not be reached... So what are the options ?

A quorum has been reached now according to the constitution, it's the house actually sitting that is up in the air.

-new PM and government appointed by the King and new general elections called after a certain amount of time

If it has not happened at this point, don't hold your breath for it to happen in the near future. Just last week, the privy council said the monarchy did not want to get involved in politics.

-new round of elections in the 7 constituencies (ah non, because there is another rule : the house must meet maximum 30 days after the elections...).

The Constitutional court will most likely rule before the house sitting date. There still is over 3 weeks.

We are serioulsy making circles here....

Everything will work out. There is a plan. We just don't have a clue which plan it is they will adopt.

[ColPyat]

To Colpyat,

nice you have some humour too. I need some sun too

Of course I read international news. Did you ever see any international news having hopes for changes coming from the people, or non-governmental bodies? I didn't, it's more about biz-news talk here, and the short-term implications, that some demonstrations may effect the ecomony.

of course the situation is not fun for Thailand, but especially we foreigners, shouldn't be to stiff on it too, and try to enjoy life as well and also see the good sides that both parties maybe have.

It's more like a football game at this moment, instead of sitting together and try to solve the problem. Let's see if some heads can cool down, after holiday, and TRT will finally open some doors, as they promised to do so.

Why shouldn't especially we foreigners try to see the good sides (which good sides?!)? When we foreigners have long term commitments and families here we are as affected by the mess as Thais are. I went already through one countrywide meltdown here, and i have no desire to go through another, potentially far worse one.

Sorry, but if you read the articles provided, and this week's cover story of the economist you'll see that this is not just "biz-news", but well reasoned political analysis.

[sushiman]

Why shouldn't especially we foreigners try to see the good sides (which good sides?!)?

I edited some hopes above, that Democracy is in process here, and if you think it's only bad, than I can't help you. It's up to TRT to change a lot here, for the better. They already did some good work too (keep the economy on good track, maybe not for all sure etc.) but anyhow I think I leave it to you and Lukamar (where are the others?? ) for a while as you both seam to have more know-how than I have

Sorry for my post floodings

Nice day!

Sushiman

[lukamar]

When we foreigners have long term commitments and families here we are as affected by the mess as Thais are.

We have long term commitments and families but we have very sort term security compared to the Thai's. That's why I don't like the instability created by mass demonstrations. It wasn't long ago the government decided to double the income rates for Married to a Thai and Retirement visa's. Permanent residence for an average foreigner is almost impossible and most of us will not live long enough to be awarded citizenship. Our lot may really be worse than the average Thai.

[ColPyat]

When we foreigners have long term commitments and families here we are as affected by the mess as Thais are.

We have long term commitments and families but we have very sort term security compared to the Thai's. That's why I don't like the instability created by mass demonstrations. It wasn't long ago the government decided to double the income rates for Married to a Thai and Retirement visa's. Permanent residence for an average foreigner is almost impossible and most of us will not live long enough to be awarded citizenship. Our lot may really be worse than the average Thai.

True, but in my personal mathematics i counterweight this disadvantage by the fact that when things really should go to pieces we can go somewhere else to ride out the storm easier than Thais can.

[ColPyat]

Why shouldn't especially we foreigners try to see the good sides (which good sides?!)?

I edited some hopes above, that Democracy is in process here, and if you think it's only bad, than I can't help you. It's up to TRT to change a lot here, for the better. They already did some good work too (keep the economy on good track, maybe not for all sure etc.) but anyhow I think I leave it to you and Lukamar (where are the others?? ) for a while as you both seam to have more know-how than I have

Sorry for my post floodings

Nice day!

Sushiman

Keep posting, by all means. You don't flame, therefore i have no problems whatsoever with your posts.

And the others? Well, seems that reasoned posts without gloating are not exactly their thing.

[lukamar]

we can go somewhere else to ride out the storm easier than Thais can.

Good point and why my son is a dual citizen and my wife will get her "other" citizenship before we return to LOS. It's like an insurance policy for us.