Electrics for new house - can it be explained in layman's terms?

[Sophon]

Hi sophon good luck with your build, I'm plodding away on our build which is I think just past the halfway stage, wife's getting the electrician round this week sometime, so that'll be an adventure

whilst taking any technical electrical advice from me may seriously damage your health, haha,, just something I thought to mention, maybe you've already seen them, but in our local home pro they have some very nice looking LED lights that come supplied with remote dimmer switches, I'm thinking of buying a couple of them myself for our house, they're not cheap mind you varying from 3500 to 5000 baht, but nice looking for the living areas

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Thanks, but at that price They are out of our budget. And wouldn't lights with remote dimmer switches require dimmable LED bulbs, which may not be so easy to find when the original ones stops working?

But thanks for the advice, and good luck to you too on your build. Where are you building?

Sophon

[Forkinhades]

LED is the future, and you can do a lot with them, including controlling from an iPhone or Android device. Apps already available.

The systems are getting more and more intelligent, but mostly require a dim pair of cables ( 2 core 10V dc) to control them.

This is my next project. To get the local sparky to run these extra cables in.

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[Forkinhades]

Just to quickly add, LED do not have to have a dim pair to work. Just gives greater control.

For example say you left your house and forgot to turn off your lights, you can turn off with your mobile phone! This technology is here now!

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[jonnyscot]

We're building not too far from Suphanburi

quote name="Sophon"

But thanks for the advice, and good luck to you too on your build. Where are you building?

And as requested by crossy here's a few pics of another one of those lights that arrived in the home pro shop just after we visited,, the pics were sent to my wife today by an eager lady from the home pro sales dept,,, the remote gives the option of auto changing the colour of the LEDs or setting to choose a particular colour

Update;; on discussion with the wife she tells me there isn't a dimmer on the remote, but during the demo the staff member gave I thought I saw that the lights did dim,, but maybe the dimming I saw was only during changing between the various colours,, anyway here's the pics

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[Forkinhades]

I think them lights will come with a driver, which will be 0-10V dc, which in turn can be controlled by the remote. If so they should dim.

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[Forkinhades]

too tired to do diagrams, but found these on google

Take the supply to the light

Take the supply to the switch

[thomasteve]

too tired to do diagrams, but found these on google

Take the supply to the light

3 plate.gif

Take the supply to the switch

loop_at_the_switch.jpg

The take supply to light method (aka loop-in ceiling rose) is easiest and saves on cable costs.

Taking it down to each switch resembles a ring main with each light becoming a spur but would certainly be more convenient for adding additional sockets and lights later without needing access to the roof space.

[Forkinhades]

I think you should be asking your sparkie how he is going to do it. Feed the switch or feed the light first. He will probably say that he is going to feed the junction box!

Anyway hope you can see that in fact you do not need any junction boxes. Just down to personal preference really.

You can even have a mixture of feeding light or feeding switch first, it depends on the job, and the best way to wire.

Back in my apprenticeship days I had to install metal conduit with no 'pull' (junction) boxes between lights and switches, and once completed the whole system was rewireable. That was real sparking, nothing like the lash up jobs you get nowadays with twin and earth.

Anyway I suspect that you will not be having a full conduited system, and just the drops down the walls.

Give us update please buddy.

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[bankruatsteve]

Forky, the down lights (for example) that I have used here just don't have the room to bring in much more than L & N. Would you mount a box on top of the light? Or?

Also, could you give an example of rewiring that 'no junction boxes' would serve? (I'm just not getting why that would help something.)

Thanks.

[Forkinhades]

In your case you would need to feed the switch, to limit the cables at the light.

Everything else is personal preference. I just don't like to see junction boxes on a new install, when you don't need them.

As Xy stated when the thais see these boxes, they will make them a connection box, and the cables will be like a birds nest.

At least you know where the joins are I suppose if that happens. Although there still could be hidden connections.

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[Sophon]

I think you should be asking your sparkie how he is going to do it. Feed the switch or feed the light first. He will probably say that he is going to feed the junction box!

Anyway hope you can see that in fact you do not need any junction boxes. Just down to personal preference really.

You can even have a mixture of feeding light or feeding switch first, it depends on the job, and the best way to wire.

Back in my apprenticeship days I had to install metal conduit with no 'pull' (junction) boxes between lights and switches, and once completed the whole system was rewireable. That was real sparking, nothing like the lash up jobs you get nowadays with twin and earth.

Anyway I suspect that you will not be having a full conduited system, and just the drops down the walls.

Give us update please buddy.

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I now understand that you are talking about a system without conduits in the attic space, in that case I can see how you can do without junction boxes. I was thinking about conduits everywhere, and couldn't understand how you could connect the conduits in the walls to the conduits in the attic without boxes.

Our electrical system will have conduits everywhere, no wires will be outside a conduit. I have already installed the conduits in the walls myself and am currently installing the conduits in the attic space.

Thanks for all your help.

Sophon

Edited February 13, 2014 by Sophon

[Forkinhades]

Sounds like you are doing a good job.

BTW you could still do it without 'pull through' boxes :blink:

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[Forkinhades]

Also if you have a complete conduit system, then the method used is called 2 plate. Which means you feed the switch. With this system you should be using single cables, and no neutral at the switch.

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[Forkinhades]

I also got confused when you said you needed to splice your cables.

Which really is not needed if using singles and conduit.

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[Sophon]

Just use black for the ground to the rod, there is no regulation requiring that it's green, put some tape or heatshrink on the ends if you wish.

<snipped>

Just a thought.

As mentioned in an earlier post, we bought a 100 meter roll of the 2 x 16 mm² NYY cable for the incoming supply since it cost about the same as buying the 70-80 meter we really need by the meter. That means we will have about 20-30 meter left over when we are finished. Is it possible to strip the outer casing of this cable and use the black wire for the ground supply?

Sophon

[Crossy]

Sophon ^^^, no problem at all.

It's not a current carrying or live conductor.

[Sophon]

Went out to buy touch plates, switches and plugs yesterday. We have decided on the Panasonic Wide series, and the touch plates comes in four different versions depending on the use. The four versions are identical except for the gaps intended for the switches/plugs:

• 1 device touch plate - 20 Baht
• 2 device touch plate - 20 Baht
• 3 device touch plate - 20 Baht
• Blank touch plate - 68 Baht

Can anyone give a reasonable explanation as to why the price of the blank touch plate is so out of line with the pricing of the other versions? The prices are from Global, and my first though was that they must have an incorrect price in their computer system, but a search on the internet shows that other shops also charge considerably more for the blank touch plate than for the other versions.

Sophon

[thomasteve]

Went out to buy touch plates, switches and plugs yesterday. We have decided on the Panasonic Wide series, and the touch plates comes in four different versions depending on the use. The four versions are identical except for the gaps intended for the switches/plugs:

• 1 device touch plate - 20 Baht
• 2 device touch plate - 20 Baht
• 3 device touch plate - 20 Baht
• Blank touch plate - 68 Baht

Can anyone give a reasonable explanation as to why the price of the blank touch plate is so out of line with the pricing of the other versions? The prices are from Global, and my first though was that they must have an incorrect price in their computer system, but a search on the internet shows that other shops also charge considerably more for the blank touch plate than for the other versions.

Sophon

It's probably just down to there being much less demand for blank cover plates rather than those with apertures where they are in more competition with other manufacturers. The additional cost of the plastic material would be very minimal. A similar situation to pricing of double gang switched socket outlets (in UK) and 6A and 32 A MCB's where the most used products are lower priced due to the very high volumes being sold. Another recent example I came across was 3m copper pipe lengths priced lower than 2m.

Edited February 26, 2014 by thomasteve

[Sophon]

I have read (looked at pictures) the instruction pamphlet that came with the Square D distribution board, and the connections seems fairly simple. But since I as mentioned have no prior knowledge/experience with electrical installation, I would like to confirm that my understanding is correct (don't worry, I won't try to install it myself ).

• Incoming cable from electric meter:

  Live wire goes to the "L" port of the RCBO

  Neutral wire goes to the Ground bar

• Neutral port of the RCBO is connected to the Ground bar
• Ground wire from the ground rod is also (not surprisingly) connected to the Ground bar
• Individual circuits:

  Live wire goes between the breaker for that circuit and the live port of light/power outlet/switch

  Neutral wire goes between the Neutral bar and the neutral port of light/power outlet. Each breaker has a corresponding neutral port in the Neutral bar.

  Ground wire goes between the ground bar and the ground port of the power outlet/A/C/Water heater

One question about wire sizes/colours that I didn't think to ask earlier. Crossy earlier confirmed that my understanding of the wiring of the distribution board as mentioned above is correct, but I forgot to ask what size and colour of wire should be used to connect the neutral port of the RCBO to the ground bar. I am guessing probably 16 mm² but what colour (keep in mind that we use red/black for live and white for neutral)?

Sophon

[Crossy]

Any colour you like, probably black, most bigger cable is stocked only in black, stick some white tape or heatshrink on the ends if you like.

[Sophon]

• Assuming that the live wire is black and the neutral is white, which colour(s) would you recommend for the three wires connecting the two switches?

  I am thinking I will just use black wire to make it clear, that they are all potentially live.

As I understand it the two two-way switches will be connected together L1 to L1, L2 to L2 and Common to Common. Incoming live will go to L1 and the live wire to the lamps will come from L2. Other than that the lamp will, of course, also be connected to the circuits neutral wire. Any of the three wires connecting the two two-way switches may at any time be live (depending on the switch positions).

Black. There are 2 ways methods to connect up 2 way switches, method 1 has live (feed) and switch line at one switch, method 2 has live at one switch and switch line at other), advise what you have

As of this moment I don't have anything. I will see what is available at the local shops.

OK, I have now bought two Panasonic two-way/three-way switches (both terms seem to be used about the same thing, I don't know which is correct). The switches have three terminals on the back marked "0", "1" and "3" like this:

I have seen many confusing (to me) diagrams on the internet about how to wire a two/three-way switch, one of the few that made sense to me is this one:

But in the diagram they use the terms "common", "live 1" and "live 2". Is the circuit in the diagram a proper way to wire two/three-way switches, and if so how does the C, L1 and L2 correspond to the 0, 1 and 3 on my Panasonic switches?

Thanks again to everyone for their help, I believe I am slowly running out of questions (but make no promises).

Sophon

[Crossy]

On your switch 'O' is common, either of the others can be L1 just be consistent.

[Sophon]

Went out to buy touch plates, switches and plugs yesterday. We have decided on the Panasonic Wide series, and the touch plates comes in four different versions depending on the use. The four versions are identical except for the gaps intended for the switches/plugs:

• 1 device touch plate - 20 Baht
• 2 device touch plate - 20 Baht
• 3 device touch plate - 20 Baht
• Blank touch plate - 68 Baht

Can anyone give a reasonable explanation as to why the price of the blank touch plate is so out of line with the pricing of the other versions? The prices are from Global, and my first though was that they must have an incorrect price in their computer system, but a search on the internet shows that other shops also charge considerably more for the blank touch plate than for the other versions.

Sophon

It's probably just down to there being much less demand for blank cover plates rather than those with apertures where they are in more competition with other manufacturers. The additional cost of the plastic material would be very minimal. A similar situation to pricing of double gang switched socket outlets (in UK) and 6A and 32 A MCB's where the most used products are lower priced due to the very high volumes being sold. Another recent example I came across was 3m copper pipe lengths priced lower than 2m.

I have come to the conclusion that it's probably about the buyers price sensitivity to the products. An average house may need 30 or 40 of the "normal" touch plates, but probably only one or two of the blank ones. So to the buyer the price of the other types are important, while it matters little if the blank one is overpriced.

One other example were Panasonic "overcharges" (I know it's a business so they are free to charge whatever gives them the highest profit) is the outdoor weather resistant touch plate. Panasonic/Global charges 330 Baht for that one, while other (lesser) brands charge as little as 32 Baht. And the small piece of plastic to block off an unused opening in a touch plate costs more than the touch plate itself.

Never mind, in the grand scheme of a house build it is not important.

Sophon

[bankruatsteve]

• Assuming that the live wire is black and the neutral is white, which colour(s) would you recommend for the three wires connecting the two switches?

  I am thinking I will just use black wire to make it clear, that they are all potentially live.

As I understand it the two two-way switches will be connected together L1 to L1, L2 to L2 and Common to Common. Incoming live will go to L1 and the live wire to the lamps will come from L2. Other than that the lamp will, of course, also be connected to the circuits neutral wire. Any of the three wires connecting the two two-way switches may at any time be live (depending on the switch positions).

Black. There are 2 ways methods to connect up 2 way switches, method 1 has live (feed) and switch line at one switch, method 2 has live at one switch and switch line at other), advise what you have

As of this moment I don't have anything. I will see what is available at the local shops.

OK, I have now bought two Panasonic two-way/three-way switches (both terms seem to be used about the same thing, I don't know which is correct). The switches have three terminals on the back marked "0", "1" and "3" like this:

3-way switch.jpg

I have seen many confusing (to me) diagrams on the internet about how to wire a two/three-way switch, one of the few that made sense to me is this one:

Two-way Light Switch Wiring.GIF

But in the diagram they use the terms "common", "live 1" and "live 2". Is the circuit in the diagram a proper way to wire two/three-way switches, and if so how does the C, L1 and L2 correspond to the 0, 1 and 3 on my Panasonic switches?

Thanks again to everyone for their help, I believe I am slowly running out of questions (but make no promises).

Sophon

For me, it makes more sense to run L to Com/0 of switch-1 and the load (light) to Com/0 of switch-2 with a double wire between the switches connecting L1,L2. Then you don't have to run extra wire. And, I always test the switch with an ohm meter to make sure which terminal "common".

[Sophon]

Any colour you like, probably black, most bigger cable is stocked only in black, stick some white tape or heatshrink on the ends if you like.

Does your comment about white tape/heat shrink mean that white would be a more correct/logical choice than black? If that is the case, then when we cut the NYY cable the black wire has a longer way to run than the white one so after cutting the two wires down to size I would have maybe 50 cm of white discarded wire. Could that be used to connect the RCBO to the ground bar?

I take it that 16 mm² is the correct size.

Sophon

[Sophon]

On your switch 'O' is common, either of the others can be L1 just be consistent.

Thanks Crossy. Just for the record, which in your opinion is the correct term; two-way or three-way switch?

Sophon

[bankruatsteve]

Are you talking about RCBO as the main breaker? That usually has L and N connectors from supply. If you are implementing "MEN", that would have the Neutral bar and Ground bar connection independent of the breaker. IE: I don't think you want to run anything from the breaker to the ground bar.

[Crossy]

On your switch 'O' is common, either of the others can be L1 just be consistent.

Thanks Crossy. Just for the record, which in your opinion is the correct term; two-way or three-way switch?

Sophon

I'm a Brit, so it's a two-way switch

[Crossy]

Are you talking about RCBO as the main breaker? That usually has L and N connectors from supply. If you are implementing "MEN", that would have the Neutral bar and Ground bar connection independent of the breaker. IE: I don't think you want to run anything from the breaker to the ground bar.

Look at the way MEN is implemented in Thailand (Forky's pinned thread), incoming Neutral goes to the RCBO via the Earth bar.

Same as the US NEC.

[Sophon]

• Assuming that the live wire is black and the neutral is white, which colour(s) would you recommend for the three wires connecting the two switches?

  I am thinking I will just use black wire to make it clear, that they are all potentially live.

As I understand it the two two-way switches will be connected together L1 to L1, L2 to L2 and Common to Common. Incoming live will go to L1 and the live wire to the lamps will come from L2. Other than that the lamp will, of course, also be connected to the circuits neutral wire. Any of the three wires connecting the two two-way switches may at any time be live (depending on the switch positions).

Black. There are 2 ways methods to connect up 2 way switches, method 1 has live (feed) and switch line at one switch, method 2 has live at one switch and switch line at other), advise what you have

As of this moment I don't have anything. I will see what is available at the local shops.

OK, I have now bought two Panasonic two-way/three-way switches (both terms seem to be used about the same thing, I don't know which is correct). The switches have three terminals on the back marked "0", "1" and "3" like this:

3-way switch.jpg

I have seen many confusing (to me) diagrams on the internet about how to wire a two/three-way switch, one of the few that made sense to me is this one:

Two-way Light Switch Wiring.GIF

But in the diagram they use the terms "common", "live 1" and "live 2". Is the circuit in the diagram a proper way to wire two/three-way switches, and if so how does the C, L1 and L2 correspond to the 0, 1 and 3 on my Panasonic switches?

Thanks again to everyone for their help, I believe I am slowly running out of questions (but make no promises).

Sophon

For me, it makes more sense to run L to Com/0 of switch-1 and the load (light) to Com/0 of switch-2 with a double wire between the switches connecting L1,L2. Then you don't have to run extra wire. And, I always test the switch with an ohm meter to make sure which terminal "common".

But either way will work, right?

I have seen comments on the web that the way you suggest is the simple way and how it "used to be done", but now conventional thinking is to use three wires. But I don't understand the reasoning behind it, so I don't know if that is correct (and I might very well have misunderstood).

I don't know about using more wires with the three-wire method, the wires will run right by where the light will be, so I am thinking it should be possible to make a dropper midway on the wire between the two L2 ports. Since the ports are connected, it shouldn't matter is the load is connected to the L2 port or the wire between them. Or is that not advisable?

Sophon