Bitcoins banned in Thailand

[oakweb]

Seems to be a lot of people making posts without really reading about how it works. I'm not surprised as my own Congress can't really get their head around it.

To answer the question about "nothing stopping an infinite number of new cryptocurrencies being created", you have to understand that with the support of miners, Bitcoin currency is possible. If you don't quite understand what that means, then please read this article:

http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2013/09/25/3855973.htm

[Morakot]

Edited November 19, 2013 by Morakot

[farang000999]

Seems to be a lot of people making posts without really reading about how it works. I'm not surprised as my own Congress can't really get their head around it. To answer the question about "nothing stopping an infinite number of new cryptocurrencies being created", you have to understand that with the support of miners, Bitcoin currency is possible. If you don't quite understand what that means, then please read this article: http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2013/09/25/3855973.htm

No we understand just fine. The pace at which the supply of cryptocurrencies are created is limited, but not the overall supply. The fact that there will be only 21 million BTC is meaningless.

Also, the US gov is interested in Bitcoin because 14 year olds could buy heroin on the internet and have it delivered to their mail box. It is not because "BITCOIN IS A THREAT TO THE BANKSTERS EVIL EMPIRE AND SATAN'S EVIL FIAT MONETARY SYSTEM WHICH MAKES WAR POSSIBLE ALEX JONES FOR PRESIDENT".

[farang000999]

Re: Power Consumption

Why don't you just go to the Middle East or Venezula where the gov subsidies energy and you can basically mine for free?

Omg! A flaw in the miraculous "power consumption" theory.

[farang000999]

Look Max Keiser found a new hobby. Most be exciting for his viewers. Nothing like listening to 6 years of "Predictions about Gold and Silver" and impending hyperinflation of "fiat" that fizzled out.

[beb]

Apparently farang000999's entire world is collapsing. Everybody quietly back out of the room.

[kawaiimomo]

Seems to be a lot of people making posts without really reading about how it works. I'm not surprised as my own Congress can't really get their head around it. To answer the question about "nothing stopping an infinite number of new cryptocurrencies being created", you have to understand that with the support of miners, Bitcoin currency is possible. If you don't quite understand what that means, then please read this article: http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2013/09/25/3855973.htm

No we understand just fine. The pace at which the supply of cryptocurrencies are created is limited, but not the overall supply. The fact that there will be only 21 million BTC is meaningless.

Also, the US gov is interested in Bitcoin because 14 year olds could buy heroin on the internet and have it delivered to their mail box. It is not because "BITCOIN IS A THREAT TO THE BANKSTERS EVIL EMPIRE AND SATAN'S EVIL FIAT MONETARY SYSTEM WHICH MAKES WAR POSSIBLE ALEX JONES FOR PRESIDENT".

Do you really believe all that BS about drugs dealing? You can buy drugs paying in BTC the same you can do by sending banknotes by mail or by doing bank transfers smaller enough to not be detected. For several years people have been selling ganja online using those methods. Sure the offer is better now because dealers see the .onion Tor websites + BTC secure enough, but this is just responding to an existing demand. I am glad that users can now buy some drugs without the need to enter dangerous neighborhoods. As for kids buying, if that is the case then the parents are not really keeping an eye on their kids (how are they getting the bank accounts, money, passing the exchange sites verifications, etc in the first place). Whatever it is your position on drugs, arms, etc that is no reason to demonize the cryptocurrencies. If the governments really care about this besides the revenue they could be getting from it, then go to prosecute the dealers, the people producing child porno, etc IN THE REAL WORLD and leave the BTC and internet alone.

Edited November 19, 2013 by kawaiimomo

[Berkshire]

Are they holding a BTC convention on the Venetian floor in Macau?

Human beings are hilarious.

Might not be too far off...the Chinese appear to be in the game...

http://money.cnn.com/2013/11/18/investing/bitcoin-china/index.html?hpt=hp_c5

[farang000999]

Chinese are just massive degenerate gamblers. Remember them running up the stock markets in anticipation of the 2008 Olympics? If they are in then this thing is going to $1,000,000 for sure.

[farang000999]

Do you really believe all that BS about drugs dealing? You can buy drugs paying in BTC the same you can do by sending banknotes by mail or by doing bank transfers smaller enough to not be detected. For several years people have been selling ganja online using those methods. Sure the offer is better now because dealers see the .onion Tor websites + BTC secure enough, but this is just responding to an existing demand. I am glad that users can now buy some drugs without the need to enter dangerous neighborhoods. As for kids buying, if that is the case then the parents are not really keeping an eye on their kids (how are they getting the bank accounts, money, passing the exchange sites verifications, etc in the first place). Whatever it is your position on drugs, arms, etc that is no reason to demonize the cryptocurrencies. If the governments really care about this besides the revenue they could be getting from it, then go to prosecute the dealers, the people producing child porno, etc IN THE REAL WORLD and leave the BTC and internet alone.

No of course they don't really care but it was a big media story so of course they are discussing Bitcoin after Silkroad.

[brit1984]

is my understanding correct that the total value of bitcoins currently in circulation is now ~10 billion USD?

that seems quite high to me considering i have never even been offered the option to pay with this "currency"

[Morakot]

i have never even been offered the option to pay with this "currency"

Well, today seems to be your day!

I offer you ten (10) Likes for merely 0.00142555 BTC .

You can send your payment to 1Ly294YxeZavdwkm2rBcsviqa3LWJMSZGo

Many thanks!

Edited November 19, 2013 by Morakot

[hawker9000]

This idea that the number of BTC is limited but the supply of cyptocurrencies is not ... isn't quite true. To be viable, a cryptocurrency has to have the same kind of market credibility, i.e. the same willingness among buyers & sellers to use it, as BTC has achieved. There's a practical limit to that. Sure, anyone can maybe float some new cryptocurrency. That doesn't mean buyers & sellers will adopt it. And there's surely a practical limit to the number of cryptocurrencies that can be in widespread use at any one time. BTC has apparently broken through this barrier of market acceptance. Supplanting it with some alternative cryptocurrency wouldn't be trivial I don't think.

[brit1984]

i have never even been offered the option to pay with this "currency"

Well, today seems to be your day!

I offer you ten (10) Likes for merely 0.00142555 BTC .

You can send your payment to 1Ly294YxeZavdwkm2rBcsviqa3LWJMSZGo

Many thanks!

thanks ok - the 10 bil USD value of bitcoins makes sense now

Edited November 19, 2013 by brit1984

[UbonOz]

Go back twenty years and somebody said Apple shares are two cents and soon you will be able to look at a piece of glass the size of an A4 sheet of paper or smaller(iPad/iPhone) and see/talk to your mother on the other side of the world. What would your response have been?

Not that different to where Bitcoin is today. Maybe Bitcoin will not survive, but something far superior is going to be needed to take its place.

Nearly all transaction through banks are digital, not truck loads of cash moving around.

Don't forget that every dollar/pound/baht or whatever you are carting around is somebody else's debt.

[brit1984]

Go back twenty years and somebody said Apple shares are two cents and soon you will be able to look at a piece of glass the size of an A4 sheet of paper or smaller(iPad/iPhone) and see/talk to your mother on the other side of the world. What would your response have been?

Not that different to where Bitcoin is today. Maybe Bitcoin will not survive, but something far superior is going to be needed to take its place.

Nearly all transaction through banks are digital, not truck loads of cash moving around.

Don't forget that every dollar/pound/baht or whatever you are carting around is somebody else's debt.

given that bitcoins are now trading at 800 US dollars each (~10 BILLION USD total) i think a better analogy would be prior to the bursting of the dot com bubble when all kinds of "ideas" that may or may not revolutionize aspects of our lives were massively overvalued by irrational speculation in the market - bitcoins might become big (and might not) but they already have a huge price

[Khun Jean]

Now trading at 800, one day later trading at 560.

I really wish there were 3 month put options for sale, maybe with a strike of 250.

I would buy a bunch.

[beb]

Yeah, bitcoin is up only 13% since 3 days ago. A regular disaster.

[farang000999]

What is the theory/logic that bitcoin prices will eventually stabilize?

[oakweb]

Now trading at 800, one day later trading at 560.

I really wish there were 3 month put options for sale, maybe with a strike of 250.

I would buy a bunch.

Bitcoin is Amazing, it's not going to be duplicated, everyone is going to use it in the future, prices are going to go up.. and sometimes down.

Buy some Bitcoin today and support the revolution.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24986264

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101205416

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/18/bitcoin-senate-hearings-regulation

[Heng]

Argue about it all you want.... if there was a market for profiting from arbitrage of grains of sand, I'd be all for it.

As for banning it here or there.... how is it here or anywhere 'specific' if you're trading on a European exchange from your computer in Texas or St. Kitts with funds that have never been Thai Baht? Against the spirit of the law perhaps, but in practical terms for any court of law? 555. The BIB aren't likely to line you up for a 'finger pointing' Thai Rath photo of you holding a flash drive. Headline: This man was doing something bad on the internet. (We think so anyway).

Edited November 20, 2013 by Heng

[pancakeman]

given that bitcoins are now trading at 800 US dollars each (~10 BILLION USD total) i think a better analogy would be prior to the bursting of the dot com bubble when all kinds of "ideas" that may or may not revolutionize aspects of our lives were massively overvalued by irrational speculation in the market - bitcoins might become big (and might not) but they already have a huge price

The .COM bubble occurred because people thought they were guaranteed to make money by throwing money at a new website startup, no matter what it was offering and no matter the cost.

A similar thing could happen to Bitcoin if people start to think they are guaranteed to make money by throw money at any bitcoin startups, no matter what they are offering.

However with Bitcoin this seems less likely as investors also have the option of just buying directly into Bitcoin without needing to invest in a bitcoin business; whereas in the .COM bubble investors didn't have the option to simply buy part of the internet.

[ukrules]

Yeah, bitcoin is up only 13% since 3 days ago. A regular disaster.

You wouldn't be feeling too smart right now if you purchased a few hundred thousand dollars of Bitcoin when it was priced at between $800-$900 a few days ago.

So this will indeed be a disaster to some people who fell for the latest manipulation in the price of Bitcoin.

[brit1984]

given that bitcoins are now trading at 800 US dollars each (~10 BILLION USD total) i think a better analogy would be prior to the bursting of the dot com bubble when all kinds of "ideas" that may or may not revolutionize aspects of our lives were massively overvalued by irrational speculation in the market - bitcoins might become big (and might not) but they already have a huge price

The .COM bubble occurred because people thought they were guaranteed to make money by throwing money at a new website startup, no matter what it was offering and no matter the cost.

A similar thing could happen to Bitcoin if people start to think they are guaranteed to make money by throw money at any bitcoin startups, no matter what they are offering.

However with Bitcoin this seems less likely as investors also have the option of just buying directly into Bitcoin without needing to invest in a bitcoin business; whereas in the .COM bubble investors didn't have the option to simply buy part of the internet.

the dot com bubble happened because people invested in assets mostly because the price was appreciating (and they assumed it would continue to increase without stepping back and making an assessment of the current price vs value ratio) just because they bought into the general "idea" of the future relevance of the company's service

the internet cannot be compared to bitcoin as there is essentially no substitute for the internet and it is a tool that has completely transformed the world (and many aspects of our lives) - where as there are many subsitutes for bitcoin (i.e. other ways to do online transactions) and it is only relevant to one aspect of our lives (just as many of the dot com start-ups were based on interesting and plausible ideas about new ways to do specific things)

bitcoin certainly has advantages, for example as a cheap way to transfer funds across borders (if and when the volatility in the price settles down) and as an alternative to paypal / debit / credit cards / etc to pay for goods and services online (but only really in the case where the seller needs or is in a position to demand more protection than the buyer)

but whether that means the current price of bitcoins in circulation (~10 bil USD yesterday and ~6 bil USD today) is low or high is not so clear but it is a big bet that the overall real value of bitcoins as a currency will one day (adjusted for the time value of money back to today) exceed the current price and that the opportunity cost of holding a non-cash flow generative commodity in the meantime does not net off any gains

Edited November 20, 2013 by brit1984

[pancakeman]

the internet cannot be compared to bitcoin as there is essentially no substitute for the internet and it is a tool that has completely transformed the world (and many aspects of our lives) -

Were you saying that in ~1990? You were probably saying "Who needs this 'internet' when we already have teletext...internet is just a substitution for that".

where as there are many subsitutes for bitcoin (i.e. other ways to do online transactions) and it is only relevant to one aspect of our lives (just as many of the dot com start-ups were based on interesting and plausible ideas about new ways to do specific things)

Really many substitutes? What object or technology can be used as an indestructible store of value that can be transferred anywhere in the world instantly?

This is probably how you will sound when looking back circa 2020

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUs7iG1mNjI

Edited November 20, 2013 by pancakeman

[ukrules]

the internet cannot be compared to bitcoin as there is essentially no substitute for the internet and it is a tool that has completely transformed the world (and many aspects of our lives) -

Were you saying that in ~1990? You were probably saying "Who needs this 'internet' when we already have teletext...internet is just a substitution for that".

where as there are many subsitutes for bitcoin (i.e. other ways to do online transactions) and it is only relevant to one aspect of our lives (just as many of the dot com start-ups were based on interesting and plausible ideas about new ways to do specific things)

Really many substitutes? What object or technology can be used as an indestructible store of value that can be transferred anywhere in the world instantly?

I believe that it's only a matter of time before banks start issuing digital currencies to complement the printing of notes and the minting of coins.

I've done some research into this scenario and it could be easily done using the same ECDSA signing technology used in Bitcoin. People would be able to pay each other directly cutting out the middle man, the likes of Mastercard and VISA. Of course transactions would need to be co-signed / authorised by a central authority (the issuing bank) but that's no issue as it can be done in fractions of a second and you would be online when sending the money anyway.

So existing money could quite easily be moved in this way. It doesn't even take a central bank to do this, any bank, credit union or financial institution with some measure of trust can do it and he software isn't that hard to write - thanks to Bitcoin.

The same system could also work for storing other kinds of financial instrument like share certificates for example. Shares could be withdrawn from brokers and traded on an open market just like currency.

Money will evolve and Bitcoin doesn't necessarily need to be part of it. There's also some other much faster alternates to Bitcoin - they are all based on the original Bitcoin code to some degree.

To name just a couple there's Digital Coin, Litecoin, SecureCoin. There's probably hundreds of them.

You can trade them all at www.cryptsy.com

[pancakeman]

Really many substitutes? What object or technology can be used as an indestructible store of value that can be transferred anywhere in the world instantly?

I believe that it's only a matter of time before banks start issuing digital currencies to complement the printing of notes and the minting of coins.

I've done some research into this scenario and it could be easily done using the same ECDSA signing technology used in Bitcoin. People would be able to pay each other directly cutting out the middle man, the likes of Mastercard and VISA. Of course transactions would need to be co-signed / authorised by a central authority (the issuing bank) but that's no issue as it can be done in fractions of a second and you would be online when sending the money anyway.

So existing money could quite easily be moved in this way. It doesn't even take a central bank to do this, any bank, credit union or financial institution with some measure of trust can do it and he software isn't that hard to write - thanks to Bitcoin.

The same system could also work for storing other kinds of financial instrument like share certificates for example. Shares could be withdrawn from brokers and traded on an open market just like currency.

Money will evolve and Bitcoin doesn't necessarily need to be part of it. There's also some other much faster alternates to Bitcoin - they are all based on the original Bitcoin code to some degree.

To name just a couple there's Digital Coin, Litecoin, SecureCoin. There's probably hundreds of them.

You can trade them all at www.cryptsy.com

I think you missed the part about "indestructible store of value", as opposed to bitcoin, digital currencies by banks could be:

- Devalued through monetary policy

- Confiscated at the whim of the bank or authorities

- Utilized to fund bail-ins

Also this makes no sense "People would be able to pay each other directly cutting out the middle man"; you are telling me banks are going to issue a digital payment option that allows you to transfer, for example $1,000,000 to Brazil instantly with "no middle man" (ie no paperwork/reporting etc..)

Edited November 20, 2013 by pancakeman

[brit1984]

the internet cannot be compared to bitcoin as there is essentially no substitute for the internet and it is a tool that has completely transformed the world (and many aspects of our lives) -

Were you saying that in ~1990? You were probably saying "Who needs this 'internet' when we already have teletext...internet is just a substitution for that".

where as there are many subsitutes for bitcoin (i.e. other ways to do online transactions) and it is only relevant to one aspect of our lives (just as many of the dot com start-ups were based on interesting and plausible ideas about new ways to do specific things)

Really many substitutes? What object or technology can be used as an indestructible store of value that can be transferred anywhere in the world instantly?

This is probably how you will sound when looking back circa 2020

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUs7iG1mNjI

just because the way a product / service works is unique (and i agree bitcoin is QUITE unique in that sense) that does not mean it does not have substitutes from the perspective of what consumers will use it for (which is what really matters from an economic perspective)

in the case of bitcoin, there are very good substitutes for its main uses (i.e. transferring money and buying goods/ services online) and although bitcoin has some advantages compared to others it also has disadvantages (e.g. price volatility, transaction costs converting into and out of regular currencies, "banks" that totally dissapear vs being saved by the taxpayer, losing code = losing coins, lack of buyer protection when buying goods/services, etc)

clearly some people in some circumstances are using bitcoin today and that will likely increase if and until a new alternative with a better balance of advantages / disadvantages comes out (or paypal / the banks / visa / mastercard / western union / etc etc offer something similar but better)

but when deciding whether or not to invest in a commodity, it is important to consider not only the possible future need for that commodity in the world but whether the price of that commodity today is a fair reflection of value, and whether the delta between the future expected value and the current price of that commodity is sufficiently high (and the time to realize that value is sufficiently short) to outweigh the opportunity cost of investing in a non-cash generating asset in the meantime

i don't think anyone is really doing this calculation - they are just investing because its intuitively a good idea and because they are excited by the momentum of the price - we (i.e. humans) should have learned by now that such psychology has caused so much pain to so many people so many times before - but human evolution is relatively slow

[ukrules]

Really many substitutes? What object or technology can be used as an indestructible store of value that can be transferred anywhere in the world instantly?

I believe that it's only a matter of time before banks start issuing digital currencies to complement the printing of notes and the minting of coins.

I've done some research into this scenario and it could be easily done using the same ECDSA signing technology used in Bitcoin. People would be able to pay each other directly cutting out the middle man, the likes of Mastercard and VISA. Of course transactions would need to be co-signed / authorised by a central authority (the issuing bank) but that's no issue as it can be done in fractions of a second and you would be online when sending the money anyway.

So existing money could quite easily be moved in this way. It doesn't even take a central bank to do this, any bank, credit union or financial institution with some measure of trust can do it and he software isn't that hard to write - thanks to Bitcoin.

The same system could also work for storing other kinds of financial instrument like share certificates for example. Shares could be withdrawn from brokers and traded on an open market just like currency.

Money will evolve and Bitcoin doesn't necessarily need to be part of it. There's also some other much faster alternates to Bitcoin - they are all based on the original Bitcoin code to some degree.

To name just a couple there's Digital Coin, Litecoin, SecureCoin. There's probably hundreds of them.

You can trade them all at www.cryptsy.com

I think you missed the part about "indestructible store of value", as opposed to bitcoin, digital currencies by banks could be:

- Devalued through monetary policy

- Confiscated at the whim of the bank or authorities

- Utilized to fund bail-ins

Also this makes no sense "People would be able to pay each other directly cutting out the middle man"; you are telling me banks are going to issue a digital payment option that allows you to transfer, for example $1,000,000 to Brazil instantly with "no middle man" (ie no paperwork/reporting etc..)

You may have missed the part where 1 Bitcoin was worth $900 yesterday and today it's only worth $450. It halved in 24 hours, that's not what I'd call indesctructable.

For a digital fiat currency I'm not talking about sending millions but in pricipal the amount doesn't really matter. I'm talking about something for every day usage - like credit card amounts, wallet money if you will.

Digital fiat would be a very useful thing for buying true digital currencies like Bitcoin. The quicker the banks start issuing their own p2p cash equivalent money the better it will be for everyone. They will cut out middle men like VISA and Paypal and allow the bank to make a direct charge, which could be lower than the previous alternatives.

Barclays in the UK have a 'mobile money' p2p type system called 'Pingit' which was useful to me for a while. In fact I used it to purchase about 6000 GBP worth of Bitcoins back in January to March when they were really cheap.

For some reason they banned blockchain.info from accepting payment for Bitcoins using the system and I've never used it since. Their loss I guess.

[beb]

the internet cannot be compared to bitcoin as there is essentially no substitute for the internet and it is a tool that has completely transformed the world (and many aspects of our lives) -

Were you saying that in ~1990? You were probably saying "Who needs this 'internet' when we already have teletext...internet is just a substitution for that".

where as there are many subsitutes for bitcoin (i.e. other ways to do online transactions) and it is only relevant to one aspect of our lives (just as many of the dot com start-ups were based on interesting and plausible ideas about new ways to do specific things)

Really many substitutes? What object or technology can be used as an indestructible store of value that can be transferred anywhere in the world instantly?

This is probably how you will sound when looking back circa 2020

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUs7iG1mNjI

just because the way a product / service works is unique (and i agree bitcoin is QUITE unique in that sense) that does not mean it does not have substitutes from the perspective of what consumers will use it for (which is what really matters from an economic perspective)

in the case of bitcoin, there are very good substitutes for its main uses (i.e. transferring money and buying goods/ services online) and although bitcoin has some advantages compared to others it also has disadvantages (e.g. price volatility, transaction costs converting into and out of regular currencies, "banks" that totally dissapear vs being saved by the taxpayer, losing code = losing coins, lack of buyer protection when buying goods/services, etc)

clearly some people in some circumstances are using bitcoin today and that will likely increase if and until a new alternative with a better balance of advantages / disadvantages comes out (or paypal / the banks / visa / mastercard / western union / etc etc offer something similar but better)

but when deciding whether or not to invest in a commodity, it is important to consider not only the possible future need for that commodity in the world but whether the price of that commodity today is a fair reflection of value, and whether the delta between the future expected value and the current price of that commodity is sufficiently high (and the time to realize that value is sufficiently short) to outweigh the opportunity cost of investing in a non-cash generating asset in the meantime

i don't think anyone is really doing this calculation - they are just investing because its intuitively a good idea and because they are excited by the momentum of the price - we (i.e. humans) should have learned by now that such psychology has caused so much pain to so many people so many times before - but human evolution is relatively slow

Strongly suggest you and others take some time, if you really want to learn about this subject, to watch the US congressional hearings on crypto-currencies, specifically bitcoin. They won't tell you everything about bitcoin but will give you an idea of how it is being considered in that government. But there is a lot more to learn from other sources if you care to really understand it.